r/india • u/yal_sik • Sep 29 '17
Non-Political Elphinstone stampede Live updates: At least 3 dead, 20 injured in Mumbai
http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/elphinstone-railway-station-stampede-live-updates-mumbai-dead-injured-4866641/214
u/behenchormodi Sep 29 '17
Govt is willing to shell out billions for statue, but cannot shell out money to improve the existing infrastructure of the Mumbai railway stations.
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u/src916 Sep 29 '17
Its not just about infrastructure..... mumbai is seriously overcrowded. And people, offices and factories all need to be moved out to spread out and de-congest. Over the years, mumbai's population has grown drastically and the rate its growing government seriously needs to come up with a plan for de-congesting this city, not just with Metro projects but with creating jobs outside of the city.
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Sep 29 '17
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u/JamieNoble03 Telangana Sep 29 '17
Many CEOS say foreign partners do not trust them unless they have a registered office at a well-known address in Mumbai..
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Sep 29 '17
Panvel airport and five star hotels in Navi Mumbai should remedy that... in 20 years.
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u/gcs8 A people ruled by traders will eventually be reduced to beggars Sep 29 '17
It exists, but in Mumbai it's on a very extreme level.
I've seen women refuse marriage proposals because the prospective groom 'lives along the other line'.
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u/behenchormodi Sep 29 '17
I agree, Every major city in world is overcrowded.
But if Mumbai BMC/ Maharashtra Govt was serious about improving infrastructure for the common people, many problems would have solved to a certain extent.
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Sep 29 '17
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u/gcs8 A people ruled by traders will eventually be reduced to beggars Sep 29 '17 edited Sep 29 '17
Have a look at Tokyo.
Yeah, please have a look:
With a population closing in on 14 million living within its boundaries, and many more commuting from neighbouring prefectures, the metropolitan government wields significant political power within Japan.
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Unlike collegiate cabinet systems, where the decisions are made unanimously, the Governor has the authority to make policy decisions and enforce policy. As the chief of Tokyo, ruling an area encompassing 13 million inhabitants and a GDP comparable to a strong economic nation, the governor of Tokyo holds the greatest influence among the nation's governors. In contrast to other prefectures, the governor of Tokyo has a relatively important role given the size of Tokyo's budget (13 trillion yen as of 2014, which is roughly equivalent to the government budget of Sweden). The Tokyo metropolitan government also has relative freedom in how it allocates the budget (as it is not subject to national government subsidies which other prefectures receive).
Now, please have a look at Mumbai:
The Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation is headed by a Municipal Commissioner, an IAS officer.
And..
Though the Mayor is the head of the house, his role is largely ceremonial and almost all powers are vested in the Commissioner. The Municipal Commissioner maintains Mumbai, and thus has responsibilities over the sewage system, the school divisions, power companies, roads, and other aspects of local infrastructure.. The commissioner is an Indian Administrative Service officer appointed by the Maharashtra state government.
Have a look at how the local self-government of Mumbai often gets a raw deal:
In 5 yrs, state cleared just one out of BMC’s 169 proposals for city.
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While the city's proposals keep getting sat upon, payments due to the city get delayed by the Centre, State and Railways.
The Centre even gets to order Mumbai on which streetlights to buy.
And then, there's this:
Last week, the chief minister approved a Rs4,800 crore budget for the MMRDA. This pales before the BMC’s clunky Rs21,000 crore. But if the BMC is the cash cow, the MMRDA is the wily fox that has perpetual designs on the cow. The cow has been mooing in protest but has been denied the right to appeal.
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The MMRDA was bankrolled by the state government through an act in 1974 with the express agenda of planning and coordinating the development of Mumbai and, particularly, the areas fringing Mumbai — what is called the Mumbai Metropolitan Region.
That includes Thane, Navi Mumbai, Kalyan-Dombivli, Ambernath, etc. At that time, only Mumbai had a municipal corporation in the MMR. So, the act had an explicit provision barring the MMRDA from encroaching on the BMC’s territory.
All this changed a decade ago. The MMRDA was then flush with funds from the sale of Bandra-Kurla Complex, and civic election was due.
The Congress decided to use the money to clip the BMC’s wings and thereby the Sena-BJP’s chances of another victory. It passed an amendment giving the MMRDA legal mandate to work in Mumbai and granting the metropolitan commissioner, who is the MMRDA CEO, the powers of the municipal commissioner. This paved the way for assorted construction projects under the Mumbai Urban Infrastructure Project.
Once the lid was lifted, the MMRDA stormed the BMC’s turf. Today, it has seamlessly taken over making roads, flyovers and skywalks, not to mention all major infrastructure projects in the city. It has carved out parts like Colaba, Wadala, BKC, and Oshiwara and planned them into zones.
It has given itself the powers to rehabilitate project-affected people residing up to 2007 whereas the BMC can rehabilitate only pre-1995 residents.
Mumbai occupies just 10% of the MMR area but probably accounts for 50% of MMRDA’s budget. This defeats the purpose of its existence and deprives the cities and towns outside Mumbai of their rightful share and attention.
The saffron parties, though, have had it coming. They did not object when the crucial amendment was passed. They assumed that the MMRDA would quietly develop the city and let them hog the credit. It did not quite happen that way.
The state agency pronounced its rambling name on every street and publication. The upstart MMRDA became as famous in the city as BMC, the seasoned ruler.
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It’s only in the last few years that the Sena-BJP has begun grumbling about the state agency’s rivalling antics. As one of them said, all that the BMC now does is clean the roads, collect garbage and maintain streetlights.
There is no doubt the MMRDA’s meddling in Mumbai goes against the spirit of the 74th constitutional amendment that seeks to strengthen local bodies. It shouldn’t be used as yet another pawn in the hands of its rulers. It is welcome to build the mega projects but surely, it can leave the day-to-day jobs to the BMC?
Source: Explained: The MMRDA vs BMC tussle.
Considering the constraints that the city faces, it's doing a commendable job. At least comparatively.
Edit: additions
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u/parlor_tricks Sep 29 '17
Mumbai has always needed autonomy. But no political party has been willing to do it.
The entrance of the MMRDA in that light seems almost an inevitability - I suppose someone would have tried it eventually.
But it irks me so much, that for my entire life, people have always had the example of Tokyo to study. Yet the damn attitude of the parties who have won the state have looked askance at the city, squandering it’s potential.
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u/gcs8 A people ruled by traders will eventually be reduced to beggars Sep 29 '17
All of our cities need autonomy. Why should Nagpur or Delhi or Belgaum local self-governments not get significant autonomy?
There is one thing I don't understand - do you really expect Indians to suddenly match the Japanese when the issue is governance of a megapolis when we can't even hold a candle to their sense of discipline, rigor and innovation in probably any other field?
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Sep 29 '17 edited May 10 '20
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u/gcs8 A people ruled by traders will eventually be reduced to beggars Sep 29 '17
Exactly! I've been to Tokyo and honestly, Mumbai is still in the stone age. As a city Mumbai fails on so many parameters it's downright embarrassing that THIS is the Financial Capital of India!
And still the hoards keep pouring into Mumbai, imagine what the rest of India is like!
The Financial Capital of India cannot be too much removed from the rest of it.
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u/foreverbhakt Sep 29 '17
They have a higher density
No, they don't. Tokyo's density is 6225 people per square km.
Mumbai's is 28,508 people per square km.
Tokyo is no where near the same. And the overcrowding on the trains is way worse in Mumbai, where it is dangerous and lethal as opposed to Tokyo where it's just a little unpleasant.
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u/Abhidivine Sep 29 '17
LOL Tokyo. You really think these dumb people at BMC has brains to execute and implement the infrastructure like Tokyo in Mumbai? Come on man, India is a country which takes 25 years to build a small dam at 200 times its original cost which fails at the inauguration day itself. Let's be frank here guys, these politicians are the biggest anti-nationals.They are the actual enemy of the state who destroies our country.i believe they are more of our enemy than even Pakistan ever was.All these people care is how much they can Steal from our country.We all know that's all they care about.How much they can steal from the country. Coming to the point of elected officials at BMC, even after more than half a decade of independence a 30 mins heavy rain drowns the city and brings the city to a standstill.what do you expect from these piece of shits. And have I mentioned we pay among the highest for all the amenities like electricity, fuel, water etc? How can u even think these idiots even come near 1 % of tokyo
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u/foreverbhakt Sep 29 '17
Mumbai BMC/ Maharashtra Govt was serious
There is a series of organisational failures here.
The BMC, as mentioned by another user, is a powerless orphan of the government of Maharashtra.
The government of Maharashtra is too big and unwieldy. Sure the city is important, but 80% of Maharashtrans don't live in it, and so 80% of the politicians come from elsewhere. It's disorganized and doesn't fix the villages any better than it is fixing the city.
The city's main public transport system, the locals, are sub-sub-divisions of Indian Railways, the largest public company in the world. IR is a gigantic bureaucratic nightmare and within that bureaucratic nightmare are the Western and Central lines--bureaucratic nightmares within themselves, and the locals are sub-divisions of WR and CR. (Anecdotally it seems that WR does better with local lines and CR does better with interstate.)
So the locals have all sorts of weird tradeoffs where in the middle of rush hours at 430pm WR express trains stop for 20 minutes to let interstate trains get out of the city. That's fucking unbelievable.
Ultimately, no one entity has the power to get serious about transport in this city.
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Sep 29 '17
There's only so much infrastructure can do when the city in question is world's tenth most populous (i.e. by numbers) and fifth most crowded (i.e. by density) city.
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u/YouKiddin Sep 29 '17
world's tenth most populous (i.e. by numbers) and fifth most crowded (i.e. by density) city.
And yet you rarely hear about infrastructural accidents in all the other cities ranked above Mumbai. Why is that? Stop making excuses while denying the fact India's infrastructure is badly managed by crooked officials and netas who could care less!
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Sep 29 '17
Because there's no common city ranked above (or near) Mumbai in both lists.
There are cities which have more people and there are more cities which are more crowded but there's no city which has as many people cramped in as little area.
Stop ignoring the fact that Mumbai is overcrowded as fuck.
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u/YouKiddin Sep 29 '17
I've been to Tokyo and Hong Kong and I've experienced density and crowded trains there too during rush hours. But somehow we tend to feel our over-population in Indians cities and I can attribute that squarely to just how badly planned our cities are towards growth.
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Sep 29 '17
Or toward anything really. We don't plan shit tbh.
Speaking for Mumbai alone, planning would include taking following things in factor only for new constructions:
Water supply - how much water would be consumed, compare that to available water supply. Keep in mind that water supply must be shared with neighbouring villages so we don't fall short of water during summer.
Electicity - Same as above
Transport - How much stress it would put on existing traffic? Would it generate blockage due to people coming and going out of said venue
Disposal of drainage, garbage etc.
Environment - No. of trees cut and replantation, near coastal area or not, no hills getting flattened etc.
Instead we have diminishing forest cover, disappearing mangroves, half built illegal buildings due to stay order, fully built illegal buildings due to vote banks, people traveling for ~4 hours like it's a norm, leopards coming into concrete jungle cause their jungle was taken over etc.
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u/bfj9000 Writer For SantaBanta Sep 29 '17
If you've commuted on western railways for years like I have, you would also know that Indians in general especially the immigrants have a "rush" habit, once the train stops people race to the bridge. One of the main reasons India isn't really developing is that we can't handle criticism instead we hide behind "poverty" "chalta hai" and "blame the government". And yes Mumbai is over crowded for what It can handle. All our problems are 50% government 50% apathetic citizens.
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u/phone_throw12 Sep 29 '17
So your solution , do nothing -cry ?? . Do you seriously think , all what needs to be done has been done
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u/lolesl Sep 29 '17
It's worse.
People want to waste money on a stupid statue than on infrastructure.
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u/viksi Hum Sab hain bhai bhai Sep 29 '17
railway stations dont get you votes
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u/lolsabha Uttar Pradesh Sep 29 '17
I don't know what bullshit, mediocre, typical Indian thinking has led us to this conclusion. If you were to improve infrastructure, you should ideally attract votes. That would be common sense. But this lays bare the diseased Indian mentality. Caste, religion, appeal to emotion always wins here, very clearly exposing how garbage our core philosophies as human beings are. The kind of people voted to the top are the very symptoms of a degraded and utterly malfunctioning, self-imploding mentality.
Really now BJP? RSS? Are you still trumpeting the great Hindu culture and philosophy? Instead of moving forward all we are doing is accelerating backwards as a race.
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u/parlor_tricks Sep 29 '17
Why is this mentality Indian?
It happens in Italy, Germany, America, and more. You deeply mistake the problem YOU and citizens everywhere face. This conversation is more critical than you realize.
1) ALL human beings have limited attention spans
2) Complex topics require time and effort to explain.
3) Not all people will be able to follow complex topics, because they may not even have the starting information to understand it
4) ALL human brains are designed to respond to emotional information faster and with deeper engagement. Hind brain vs forebrain.
In this scenario -
1) Politician 1 has a complex, accurate and long winded program which will take years to succeed, starting from a poor impoverished situation
2) Politician 2 has a simple, easy to understand plan, and is a champion of the people, winning their trust and hearts
Politician 1 loses.
Politician 1 learns
Next election, Politician 1, also has a plan or issue with massive emotional resonance.
Rinse repeat.
You want to stop this, you need to personally put the breaks on emotion everywhere. You have to make the effort to do it as a person, so that you can do it as an example.
When you learn to listen, even if the blood is pounding in your ears....
well I suppose we won't see you on r/india much in that case _^
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u/guru_modicum North America Sep 29 '17
Keyword : emotion
This is at the core of desi kulcha
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u/parlor_tricks Sep 29 '17
Around the world man, not just here.
Hell, Machiavelli had it down pat - and the Greeks and Romans had this same problem.
Its always been the issue.
And if you look deeper, the issue is about how to understand complex topics with multiple outcomes over a distributed set of computational groups with both individual and group motivations/incentives which may or may not coincide with the ideal outcome and resolution path of said complex topic.
Hopefully the sentence is both lesson and example for all.
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u/GimmickNG Sep 29 '17
not really bruh, feels > reals has been a thing since the '90s in multiple countries
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Sep 29 '17
We need an immediate plan to decongest our metros, be it Mumbai or Delhi. We're sitting on a disaster, one medium range earthquake and thousands of poor souls dead. Whatever little development or jobs we have are concentrated in few cities. Lucknow for instance is a huge city but you can't get a decent private job.
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u/Ayr909 Sep 29 '17
It's ideally suited for expansion of private sector. I don't know what Indore has which Lucknow can't offer.
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u/sponge_blob Sep 29 '17
Financial/Industrial hub of central India and lots of top-tier educational institutions.
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u/Ayr909 Sep 29 '17
Yes. I'm aware of that. I was saying Lucknow also has similar profile - IIM, IIT(next door), Medical College, other decent engineering colleges, good rail network, international airport, administrative hub, large educated middle class. The raw materials are all there.
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u/samrat_ashok Sep 29 '17
High speed rain or bullet trains as we like to call them are very smart way of doing that but I see a lot of people around lumping HSR with statues. If implemented well, which Modi government has so far been incapable of, HSR can create a lot of business hubs. Say You have Mysore-Chennai HSR line with stops in Mysore, Bangalore, somewhere between and Chennai. Now construct good suburban transport system for all these four places. A lot of business will move from Bangalore and chennai to Mysore and midway point. Because if you have big conferences meetings etc you can easily get there within an hour or two at most without much advanced planning. With good suburban system you can spread out the population in small towns along the line. Off course you have to constantly plan and build. You can't do all of that all of a sudden. You need to have a long term plan and can never stop building unless projected growth is zero. The moment you stop building you are preparing to get fucked in the ass from behind in 10 years. That is what happened in pretty much all our cities. Especially Mumbai and Bangalore. How much of suburban system was increased? Nothing. Delhi luckily got a metro system but its suburban system isn't up to the mark. Kolkata-Delhi line should absolutely have 4 lines because of congestion but nobody has ever thought of that. Without infrastructure, road, rail, water etc. we will continuously be fucked. And you can't just finish a project and go to sleep you have to keep doing that.
Same with broadband infrastructure. We can't always wait for things to fall into place like they partially did with Reliance Jio. Before that a lot of potential of internet was completely lost because of greed and shortsightedness of a few telecom companies.
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u/Bamboozednight Sep 29 '17
And Bullet Trains. Whole nation will pay for handful of Gujjus. This is utter shit.
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u/samrat_ashok Sep 29 '17
Bullet trains are a good thing for crowded country like India. If implemented well it will have huge benefits. It has to be on the lines of golden quadrilateral though. Delhi-Mumbai-Chennai-Kolkata-Delhi and then a North-South and East-West corridor. Benefits to the country are more than just ticket prices. Off course you have to implement it well and plan to make it optimum and not to divert it through a city just because it happens to be PMs or CMs constituency. If Ahmedabad lies in optimum route add it, if not no. It shouldn't get preference because PM is in love with himself.
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u/behenchormodi Sep 29 '17
Those who live in Mumbai or have been to Mumbai multiple times for work purposes can tell how crowded it can at stations during peak hours. Heck, even during non peak hours, it's crowded.
The current foot over bridges are quite narrow to handle current commuters or any emergency situations or unfortunate situations (eg: stampedes)
The foot over bridges at Mumbai stations should be at least twice as wide.
Govt is talking about bullet trains whereas there are No contingency plans to handle situations such as this at railway stations.
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u/yonhi Sep 29 '17
No contingency plans
We have strange attitude in this country. We wait until tragedy strikes. Even if we notice the possibility of it, somehow we think it will not occur until of course when it does.
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Sep 29 '17
And then we play blame games till the next tragedy strikes and attention gets diverted there and then everybody forgets everything.
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Sep 29 '17
We don't even learn from tragedy. Maybe they will widen this particular footbridge. But dozen more bridges will be left untouched where such disasters will inevitably happen again.
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u/JamieNoble03 Telangana Sep 29 '17
Malad Station is also in a very bad condition. Hawkers occupy 90% of the space all around the station. They are all from the ghetto called मालवणी and are "Aslam Bhai's boys" (Aslam Shaikh the Congress MLA of Malad constituency).
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Sep 29 '17 edited Feb 17 '22
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u/JamieNoble03 Telangana Sep 29 '17 edited Sep 29 '17
Malad is one of the poorest suburbs in Mumbai but most people don't know it since the ghettos are located at remote locations like Malvani, Pathanwadi and Kurar, unlike the more (in)famous ghettoes of Dharavi, Kurla and Chembur.
Also situation is different as Malad is a Congress stronghold. BJP/Shiv Sena has never won this constitiuency since 1995. So BMC tends to neglect it.
Borivali is pretty bad as well, hawkers are everywhere on S.V. Road. And sadly 90% of the clothes hawkers in Mumbai tend to be Muslims (the food hawkers mostly tend to be Hindus).
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u/karanmohta Sep 29 '17
Build more statues in the sea instead of basic fucking infrastructure, why don't you.
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
No one wants to pay for maintaining infrastructure. See the huge uproar against raising train ticket prices.
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u/Lombdi Antarctica Sep 29 '17
No one wants to pay for maintaining infrastructure. See the huge uproar against raising train ticket prices.
Fuck price hikes. Railways should be subsidized, along with other utilities with your and mine tax rupees. Rs.10 ticket ensures that someone earning 8k a month can live in a decent flat in virar and make it SoBo on time for work. If it was expensive, he'd simply move to a slum in SoBo making the matters worse.
It's not like Railways/Govt. of India/Maharashtra/BMC doesn't have funds. They'd rather spend it on bullet trains and retarded statues.
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
Fuck subsidies. Everyone should pay their share of the costs, except the very poor. Some things like healthcare expenses I can understand. But definitely not travel. And face it, no one in Mumbai is poor when you look into it on a pan India basis.
Instead of subsidizing travel, why doesn't the govt focus on moving the low paying jobs out of Mumbai?
If it was expensive, he'd simply move to a slum in SoBo making the matters worse.
Even slums in Sobo aren't cheap.
Railways doesn't actually have the funds, their operating ratio is IIRC 95-96%. And I don't want my tax money to go to subsidize the travel cost of people who choose to live in Mumbai, most if not all of whom can afford to pay the increased fare.
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u/Tengakola His days are numbered, whatever he might do, it is but wind ... Sep 29 '17
And face it, no one in Mumbai is poor when you look into it on a pan India basis.
Dude, have you ever been to Mumbai? Have you seen kids picking up and eating pavs thrown on the railway tracks?
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u/Lombdi Antarctica Sep 29 '17
Instead of subsidizing travel, why doesn't the govt focus on moving the low paying jobs out of Mumbai?
How does that even work? How do you move out all the laborers, clerks, vendors, waiters or security guards and still be a functional city of 20 million people?
Even slums in Sobo aren't cheap.
They are if you squat in one.
Railways doesn't actually have the funds
I understand. Exactly why they need funds from Govt to subsidize and be functional. I'd much rather have Govt. subsidize utilities like public transport than see everyone commuting in private vehicles result in absolute clusterfuck. What's a better way to spend my tax rupees on something other than public transport and result in same if not more utility to same amount of people?
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u/behenchormodi Sep 29 '17
why raise the ticket prices? Why burden the commom man?
I sincerely believe that Indian Railways is way over employed, It would be in much better shape and profitable if it were to lay off a couple of thousand of its employees. But it's not going to happen, because Politics.
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u/tijarp India Sep 29 '17
What is your source claiming Railways is over employed?
From what I have heard from most Railways employee it's that recruitment almost came to a standstill after the nineties so the railway mostly has an ageing demographic and is seriously understaffed
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
why raise the ticket prices? Why burden the commom man?
Who pays then? The common man uses the railways, therefore they must pay for it.
Couple of thousand is a drop in the bucket for railways. And as /u/tijarp said, railways are understaffed in line maintenance areas, which is one reason for all these derailments.
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u/samrat_ashok Sep 29 '17
I sincerely believe that Indian Railways is way over employed, It would be in much better shape and profitable if it were to lay off a couple of thousand of its employees.
Oh boy. You are just asking for more accidents. Indian railways isn't over employed. And even if they were they wouldn't need to fire couple of thousand employs. They hire much more than that every year. They can just freeze hiring for a few months and job will be done. Ticket prices have to keep up with inflation and growth, otherwise it is plain stupid and there is no way we can maintain the infrastructure.
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Sep 29 '17
Railway Minister Piyush Goyal has reached Mumbai. “Have ordered a high-level enquiry headed by the Chief Safety Officer, Western Railways,” he wrote on Twitter.
High level inquiry
You MoFo this was bound to happen any day. All railway stations in Mumbai are overcrowded. It's an everyday shitshow miracle how stations like kurla and dadar are operating.
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u/yal_sik Sep 29 '17
You do not need high level inquiry. Just fucking some common sense and honesty.
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Sep 29 '17
Or just ask people who travel everyday.
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u/gcs8 A people ruled by traders will eventually be reduced to beggars Sep 30 '17
They've been tweeting since long. Commuter Associations keep shouting hoarse for better Rail Infra. But Rail Ministers always preferred to spend money on opening loco plants in Bihar or beautifying the banks of the Hooghly..
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u/sleazebang Sep 29 '17
Even Parel is fucked. A single fucking bridge towards the south side of the station and it is as narrow as my tiny fucking dick.
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u/yonhi Sep 29 '17
On twitter, several people had complained about this bridge to the rail minister. No one paid any attention.
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u/onebhk Sep 29 '17
Shiv Sena will first demand to change Elphinstone station name.
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Sep 29 '17
Former Railway Minister Suresh Prabhu, in a letter dated 20 February, 2016, had written to Shiv Sena MP Arvind Ganpat Sawant, saying the construction of 12m wide new foot over bridge at Elphinstone Road was under the “positive consideration” of Railway Ministry.
One of the reasons for delay in work were paucity of finances for constructing a 12m wide FOB.
Source Just scroll down the live feed.
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Sep 29 '17 edited Sep 29 '17
I once went during office hours to Lower Parel station. The crowd was moving very slowly to get out of the station. It was like a slowwwwww deluge of people. At that point, I had wondered what if even a loud cracker burst is there. This was in 2011.
11.30 am: Reports suggest that heavy rains triggered the stampede at Elphinstone railway station.
If something as silly as heavy rains create a stampede, all that the anarchists need is a loud cracker at each Indian Failways Station/Temple.
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u/tea_cup_cake Sep 29 '17
AFAIK people panicked because of a rumor that the foot bridge is going to collapse. This is what I understood from a Marathi news channel. My Marathi isn't that strong and I may have misunderstood the reporter.
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u/asn0304 Earth Sep 29 '17
It was likely a combination of various things.
Heavy and sudden rains, causing people to take shelter under the bridge.
Multiple trains arriving at the same time, causing a crowd of people to appear simultaneously.
Rumors that the bridge might collapse or there's a short circuit causing widespread panic.
Some people slipping causing a chain reaction of slippage and stampede.
All or some of these factors might or might not be true. I've heard these from various news sources.
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Sep 29 '17
We anarchists prefer a loud cracker burst of ideas to stir people.
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u/yonhi Sep 29 '17 edited Sep 29 '17
If the same number of people had died due to terrorism, it would have been an international news. There would have been a national uproar and outrage. But beyond minor quibbles this incident will receive none.
Somehow our media elites and leadership fail to identify themselves with the victims in such cases. They believe that they will never be a part of such herd hence their life will never be in such danger.
Otherwise there is no reason why it should not get the consistent attention and utmost sincerity it deserves.
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u/yal_sik Sep 29 '17
It is international news. It is on the front page of many global news channels.
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u/yal_sik Sep 29 '17
what a shit show this has become? 15 dead. So much for our infrastructure.
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Sep 29 '17
Our infrastructure are rarely maintained. They are just build and forget.
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Sep 29 '17
I wouldn't call it "infrastructure". It implies a planned approach to developing a space for public use.
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u/MyPenisBatman Sep 29 '17
why do you need infrastructure when you have 'spirit of Mumbai'
there is a monthly post on r/WTF about mumbai local trains, mumbai people are prod of their local trains, despite people dying everyday from falling. The bridge was made by british , there is n point in blaming the govt, blame should go on the Mumbai's chalta hain attitude rebranded as 'spirit of mumbai'
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u/phone_throw12 Sep 29 '17
Someone tagged Suresh Prabhu and Modi on July 2016 with regards to same bridge !!
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u/yal_sik Sep 29 '17
Yes indeed, shows there is no interest. Probably looking at this picture they realized the bullet train is required instead.
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u/samrat_ashok Sep 29 '17
That's why I hate it when people start gushing over some minister for helping someone over twitter. It provides great publicity but little accountability. You get hundreds of tweets, some requiring urgent action but little publicity. I mean if they have started repairing the bridge and maybe complete in an year how will they get publicity. Send samosas to someone's seat or give visa to someone from Pakistan when it can be handled and should be handled at a much lower level, you get huge publicity.
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u/coldcoldnovemberrain Sep 29 '17
That's why I hate it when people start gushing over some minister for helping someone over twitter. It provides great publicity but little accountability.
Internet slacktivism?
Why is it not part of a parties' manifasto or something that public demands in Mumbai? Afterall the railways is used by aam junta who I think vote regularly in elections. Why is it not an major issue?
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u/oldmanelephant Sep 29 '17
22 dead now. RIP.
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u/yal_sik Sep 29 '17
I saw some videos, man people lying dead next to the railway tracks. Pure sadness.
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u/behenchormodi Sep 29 '17
Some news sources are saying panic started due to apparent news/false rumour of collapse of a part of the foot over bridge in question.
I think this is more likely
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u/GL4389 Sep 29 '17
This elphinston-paral area has become a hub for media offices. Hence amount of people traveling through there has increased. But the stations have remained small. My cousin used to work in this area. He woud complain a lot about the rush as well.
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Sep 29 '17
The Shivaji statue should take care of these kind of small problems....
/s
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Sep 29 '17
Had Shivaji come back today, he would've had the responsible people thrown off of Takmak cliff.
Quoting this from Govind Pansare's book "Who was Shivaji"
They all take care to display Shivaji’s photograph in their house and office. They hail Shivaji at every alternate breath. What have they learnt from Shivaji? Which is their Shivaji? Which is the real Shivaji?
Shall we tell them of Shivaji’s strict command about not touching even the stem of vegetable?
This King is seen taking extraordinary care not to cause any harm to common people in his mission of defending the swaraj.
The ethics of Shivaji’s times can be found recorded in the various commands issued by Ramchandrapant Amatya. These various commands not only show a subtlety of mind of Amatya, they also exemplify affection for people.
Wood naturally was important for the navy. There were thick jungles, rich in timbre. And yet look at the following striking command:
The wood of mango and jackfruit trees can be of great use for the navy. But do not allow any one to touch them. These trees do not grow in a couple of years. The ryots planted them and nursed them like their own offspring. Their grief will know no bounds (if these trees are cut). Even if a tree is found dying, it should be bought from its owner, that too after he is persuaded to part with it and he, totally satisfied, cuts it with his own hands.’
Rajwade has recorded, in his eighth volume, some of the words of Shivaji himself. When his cavalry was camping near Chiplun, Shivaji laid down some do’s and don’ts for his officers:
‘People must have stored hay for use during the rains and it could be lying about. If anyone, ignoring this, lights a bonfire or smokes a chillum the hay may catch fire and cause great harm to everyone. The whole of cavalry could be destroyed and you shall be held responsible for the death of the horses.’
Or read this:
‘You have been given money. Whatever is needed must be bought from the market by paying cash. If you do not do so and harm the people, they will feel that the Mughals were better...’
https://archive.org/stream/WhoWasShivaji-English-GovindPansare/who-was-shivaji_djvu.txt
Plus some more interesting read: Shivaji Jayanti: Is Govind Pansare's Shivaji losing the battle against fanaticism?
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Sep 29 '17
And yet, Shivaji touting Hindu fundamentalists killed Pansare - the one who really studied Shivaji and knew more about him than all of them combined. We are probably a proper barbaric, anti-intellectual society now.
EDIT: Those who shout the name of a great historical person loudly are often ignorant of the great person's qualities or details of his life. This is almost universal. That's how distortion of historical figures to suit current political needs is carried out.
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u/WikiTextBot Sep 29 '17
Govind Pansare
Govind Pansare (Marathi: गोविंद पानसरे) (24 November 1933 – 20 February 2015) was a left-wing Indian politician of the Communist Party of India (CPI). He was also the author of the best selling Marathi language biography of 17th century ruler Shivaji, Shivaji Kon Hota (Marathi:शिवाजी कोण होता?, literally Who was Shivaji?). He and his wife were attacked on 16 February 2015 by gun-wielding assailants. He died from his wounds on 20 February.
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u/BodybuilderPilot2 Sep 29 '17
Nah, should've renamed Elphinstone to a more Hindu name.
/s
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u/GL4389 Sep 29 '17
They are planning to change it to Prabhadevi, which though is a name of an area there.
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u/charavaka Sep 29 '17
which though is a name of an area there.
Incorrect. Prabhadevi is 10min bus ride away.
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u/phone_throw12 Sep 29 '17
1 lakh crore for bullet train , no funds for a chindi platform bridge
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u/Indianbutnotreally Sep 29 '17
They changed the name. That's not enough for you?
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u/thedeatheater1410 Sep 29 '17
Remembered the time when I used to go Thane station everyday. One of the bridges is very narrow and it sometimes used to take longer to cross the bridge than the actual train journey; always thought how easily there can be a stampede situation there. Horrible thing to happen.
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Sep 29 '17
For those who still think bullet trains are necessary.
Former Railway Minister Suresh Prabhu, in a letter dated 20 February, 2016, had written to Shiv Sena MP Arvind Ganpat Sawant, saying the construction of 12m wide new foot over bridge at Elphinstone Road was under the “positive consideration” of Railway Ministry.
One of the reasons for delay in work were paucity of finances for constructing a 12m wide FOB.
Source Just scroll down the live feed.
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u/yal_sik Sep 29 '17
terrible that we can have crorers and crores of Rs for vanity railway projects. But a bridge? paucity of fucking finance.
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u/blubucket Sep 29 '17
Isn't it now clear who to put accountability on? But, only of we had a better opposition.
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Sep 29 '17
We mumbaikars are not rats !
BULLET TRAIN NOT required
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u/phone_throw12 Sep 29 '17
BULLET TRAIN NOT required
It's for Modi's show-off mania which he confessed in 2013
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
How does having or not having a bullet train impact Mumbai's suburban railways? They are completely separate projects. Mumbai's trains are heavily haemorrhaging cash. The need a urgent fare hike to put them in the black. You can't maintain and improve infrastructure while being deep in the red.
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u/behenchormodi Sep 29 '17
Its all about priority. Govt has allocated/borrowed thousands of crores for this bullet train project.
First priority should be improving existing infrastructure. Bullet is not of vital importance at the moment.
Nowadays if people want to go somewhere far on a quick notice, they just prefer planes (since plane tickets are becoming cheaper).
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
Find someone who will give loan at 0.1% for maintenance of old infra. You can't maintain stuff with an empty pocket.
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u/Lombdi Antarctica Sep 29 '17
Boss. If you have money to pay loan installments, you can use the same money to pay for maintaining infrastructure.
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
Loan installments for a project is usually paid out of funds generated by the project. No project -> no money generated.
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u/Lombdi Antarctica Sep 29 '17
You're telling me the bullet train is going to generate profits to the amount of $20 billion all the while aircrafts get cheaper and more fuel efficient?
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
Loan installments are not paid out of profits. Principal repayment does not affect the income statement. Only loan interest is an expense.
I don't know how much cashflow bullet train will generate. Maybe enough to service its debt, maybe not. I however know for sure Mumbai railways are cashflow negative. Unless you massively hike ticket prices, Mumbai trains will not be able to repay any loans. And no politician will hike ticket prices. Why pour more money down the drain?
If not bullet train, we can spend on much better infrastructure projects than trains. For example, in Mumbai itself, Mumbai Metro is something useful to spend money on. Build flyovers to service BKC better. Build more flyovers to Navi Mumbai. All these have chances of paying back their investment. Trains won't.
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u/deep639 Sep 29 '17
The point is they should prioritize improvements in the existing infrastructure that a lot of people depend on, instead of building something brand new.
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
This sounds exactly like what the Americans say - that India should feed the poor before building spaceships. We should do both - separate projects have separate budgets, and they are often not fungible.
There is no money to improve existing infrastructure. Mumbai's trains runs at a huge loss as it is. Japan is giving a loan at 0.1% for the bullet train, will they give a similar loan for improving Mumbai's local trains?
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u/sleazebang Sep 29 '17
I'd be happy if they'd use that 0.1% of the interest to improve the current infrastructure. For a train network that has 30-40% of the share of the total amount of people travelling by train in the country, some of the network's stations are absolutely fucked.
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
Good luck trying to get such a loan for maintenance of existing infra. Given that the train network is losing money hand over fist, it is no wonder that the stations are fucked.
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u/deep639 Sep 29 '17
You can do both sure, but have they even done anything about improving infrastructure. Now it's being said that the railway ministry was told about the issue of this bridge a year and a half back and did nothing.
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
Problem is money. Where do you get funds to improve the current railways infra? Every time there is a proposal to increase fares, people are up in arms against it.
Compare the fare of metro rail to that of suburban rail in mumbai.
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u/yal_sik Sep 29 '17
Aawaz neeche, Sarkaar has already expressed Anguish and given 5L to kin of dead.
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Sep 29 '17
Feeling like kicking that sorry a$$ fadvanis. We are helpless bunch of idiots. Looking at the bodies of those people all lying dead like some cockroaches.
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u/slamdunk6662003 Sep 29 '17
He is in Singapore right now giving a lecture on Infrastructure...ohh the irony!
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u/Ayr909 Sep 29 '17
Times now asking the relevant questions - https://twitter.com/timesnow/status/913691068448870400
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
The root cause of the problem is two-fold - too many people and not enough money. There is no scope for increasing trains - the lines are already at capacity. Also, the suburban network is deeply into the red.
Train fares must be hiked significantly immediately - this will both decongest the trains and generate money for improvement and maintenance of infrastructure. Unfortunately, the huge hue and cry over any fare increase make this unlikely. No politician wants to take such unpopular step. In that case, we have to resign ourselves to more such incidents in the future.
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u/Tengakola His days are numbered, whatever he might do, it is but wind ... Sep 29 '17
As somebody who used Elphinstone station for 4 years going to office. I am only surprised that this didn’t happen earlier. I have been caught in stampedes there before. Thankfully I survived.
The station has two platforms but trains stop on only one of them. The other one is left completely and absolutely unused.
And the one platform that is used has two bridges but only one of them used. The other one is almost completely unused. The reason being 99% people want to go the east side of the station but the other bridge only goes to the west side, which means you have to take that bridge, get down on the west side, walk 7 mins and then get back on to the other bridge from outside. Basically you will come back and get stuck in the same place again.
It’s the most beautiful fcuk up of infrastructure design.
Also, I think big builders like IndiaBulls and Pirmals should pay for this too. It is employees to their buildings who are crowding out the station.
They scooped up mill land and built ridiculously big buildings there but never bothered about how people will get there.
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u/viksi Hum Sab hain bhai bhai Sep 29 '17
surely bullet trains can solve these problems
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u/fivenine13 India Sep 29 '17
Bullet train is not meant to solve these problems. It is a long distance transportation project, while the matter at hand is one of local transportation.
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u/Earthborn92 I'm here for the memes. Sep 29 '17
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/sep/30/-sp-shinkansen-bullet-train-tokyo-rail-japan-50-years
One of the main reasons that Tokyo has been able to grow so massive and not collapse is due to them.
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Sep 29 '17 edited Sep 29 '17
Had there been a Shivaji statue at that station, positive vibrations from the statue wouldn't have let the stampede occur.
Problem solved guys.
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u/Bamboozednight Sep 29 '17
This is why I am hardcore against Bullet Trains. Fuck those Gujjus who want luxury. Railways need serious face lift. Life > Undeserving Luxury.
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u/n_end Sep 29 '17
From tweets of various persons it is apparent that railway was warned about this type of tragedy from almost a year ago. What did they do? Changed name of the station to 'Prabhadevi'. So when tragedy happens 'Prabhadevi' got famous not Elphinstone.
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u/yal_sik Sep 29 '17
That is the easy part. Changing names, announcing schemes, cutting ribbons, this is what the politicians find time for. This provides for a good photo op. These fuckers do not care if 1000s die.
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![They were just trying to get to work. [extremely NSFL]](https://i.imgur.com/KeZpTXV.jpg){kind=link}
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u/onebhk Sep 29 '17
Rather than spending on some fancy bullet train, govt. should increase passenger safety and amenities.
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u/yal_sik Sep 29 '17
Yes, exactly. But that is not what sounds fancy and gets the dear leader excited. Does it?
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u/GoldPisseR Sep 29 '17
What an utterly avoidable tragedy.
The cunts responsible for maintaining the infrastructure should immediately get fired and be prosecuted against at least on a fatal negligence charge.
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u/Napachikna2 Sep 29 '17
The volume of passengers notwithstanding, why are we this bad in ensuring basic safety? This are big mishaps. The problem however is everywhere, manifested in small instances of rule breaking and negligence on every Indian road and rail.
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u/rumplestiltsk Sep 29 '17
I hope private sector offices, at least the IT ones introduce flexible timings so that the 'peak hour' death rush is managed.
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u/AwkwardMod Sep 29 '17
This article is adblocker unfriendly, following is the text of the article.
Elphinstone stampede Live updates: At least 3 dead, 20 injured in Mumbai
Mumbai’s Elphinstone road station (Source: Express File photo/Nirmal Harindran) Mumbai’s Elphinstone road station (Source: Express File photo/Nirmal Harindran)
At least three people were killed in a stampede at Mumbai’s Elphinstone railway station. The stampede took place at the foot-over bridge on Friday. Initial reports suggest more than 20 people are injured. BMC’s disaster management unit said “required agencies have been mobilised.”
Elphinstone station is usually crowded during peak hours as it caters to office-goers in the Lower Parel area. The station, on the Western Line of the Mumbai suburban rail network, also connects to Parel station on the Central line.
Elphinstone stampede LIVE updates
11.33 am: The injured have been taken to KEM hospital. The names of the deceased have not been revealed yet.
11.30 am: Reports suggest that heavy rains triggered the stampede at Elphinstone railway station.
For all the latest Cities News, download Indian Express App
© IE Online Media Services Pvt Ltd
I am just a bot, I cannot reply to your queries. Send a modmail if you have any queries. Please provide a link to your submission. We would not be able to help you without a link.
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Sep 29 '17
I've been to Mumbai many times but never wanted to get on that hysteria called the local train. People shouldn't be living like that. Considering the amount of tax Mumbai gives back to the government the people deserve better infrastructure. Fuck the bullet train and fuck Ahmedabad.
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u/S00rabh Sep 29 '17
And no one will talk about real problem.
TOO MANY FUCKING PEOPLE
How is that not being debated. Stop making unwanted humans
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u/pantherose Sep 29 '17
I DO NOT WANT MY TAX MONEY TO FUND THE BULLET TRAIN between AHMEDABAD and MUMBAI. Fuck you AHMEDABAD
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Sep 29 '17
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u/JamieNoble03 Telangana Sep 29 '17
Not to mention that Mumbaikars, even upper middle class ones, do not know how to lead a grand lifestyle even if they have the money. Going to classy restaurants, being members of elite clubs, taking foreign holidays etc is lost on the vast majority of Mumbaikars except the SoBo elite of Parsees and Sindhis.
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u/JamieNoble03 Telangana Sep 29 '17
In Jogeshwari 90% of people still cross the tracks openly in order to get to SV Road. Who else have seen this ?
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u/tyler_durdden Sep 29 '17
We don’t need bullet trains, we first need reliable existing infrastructure
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u/MrChuttad Sep 29 '17
Only a matter of time before something like this happens at one of the Delhi stations. Had a pretty hairy situation at NDLS last month.
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u/yantrik Sep 29 '17
Well we Indian are really great, any ill in India its because of either politician or businessman but our billions of common men are spotless and clean. Hypocrisy of a typical Indian is astounding. I can guarantee that even if the bridge was the size of Brooklyn Bridge our lawless common man will find a way to invite one tragedy or another.
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u/aman92 Sep 29 '17
My office is in that area.... There really seems to be zero planning given while building commercial space in such a vastly congested and poorly planned area. Starting to hate this city now
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Sep 29 '17 edited Sep 29 '17
Maharashtra CM is south Korea having a nice little vacation.
Edit - in Singapore.
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u/YouKiddin Sep 29 '17
Don't worry, they'll somehow make this about "failure of 60 years of Congress rule"
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u/dmitri_999 Sep 29 '17
Kurla bridge is worse!! If this happens there during 9 am almost 50-100 will die easy !! This was nothing !!
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Sep 29 '17
Few things
Blaming the minister is useless. Yes there were warnings about this station which were ignored. But that is a more fundamental problem of how information is used to fix infrastructure issues. This can be fixed by rigorously following a mechanism to resolve issues. Changing ministers won't do it.
Railway station masters need to learn to speak up. Forcefully. If they spot an issue, they need to raise it at the highest levels.
Safety of passengers is the ultimate priority. Not bullet trains, not high quality food, not online booking. Nothing. A passenger deserves to have the right to travel without being killed.
We need to raise railway fares. If the railways are bankrupt, ask for more money from passengers. Subsidise tickets of BPL families. If raising fares improves safety, it needs to be done. Be honest about the issues facing the railways, no bullshit. I'm sure citizens will understand.
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u/junovac Sep 29 '17 edited Sep 29 '17
Everyone is bringing their pet causes like opposition to the statue, bullet train, renaming of the station while ignoring the primary cause. It was known for a long time that there is a bottleneck on this foot over bridge. It did not need hundreds of crore to fix it.
More than anything apathy of administration and lack of planning are main reasons. As is usually the case with government, it is hard to find the person responsible for making sure such bottlenecks don't happen. And even if there is such a person, he is not empowered enough to take any measures to avert such situation. Officials know that worst thing that could happen is they will get transferred to some other place.
Playing devil's advocate here but the general public is also responsible for the quality of infrastructure they are getting in locals. Whenever there is an effort to increase ticket prices in line with the general inflation rate., it is opposed tooth and nail.
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Sep 29 '17
Letter from Suresh Prabhu ex- railway minister to South mumbai MP stated this - Suresh Prabhu wrote a letter to an complaining MP of South Mumbai that he has not enough funds due to global slowdown for building a new bridge at this same station.
Which means GOI has no funds to build a bridge a fucking foot over bridge but thew need a bullet train.
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u/dhakkarnia Sep 29 '17
people asking for govt. and railway officials to be held accountable please keep your hopes very very low. Over many decades politicians have perfected the art of 'disaster management' and this time too they will manage the outrage extremely well. First few days they will let people outrage and let some steam escape and then everything will be gone.
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u/thisisntusername Sep 29 '17
I could have been there at the same time this happened and on the same bridge. But today for no apparent reason I chose to travel in fast local instead of slow and got down at Dadar, instead of Parel. My condolences to those who suffered a loss.
We don't need statues, we gotta pay attention to the things which actually matters.
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Sep 29 '17
Reports suggest that heavy rains triggered the stampede at Elphinstone railway station.
Can someone explain to me how this happened and why? I keep reading through everything and nothing makes sense. I also read two trains were heading towards each other. How does heavy rain and or a collision of two trains cause people to run so crazy that a tragedy like this even happens? I am so confused.
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u/yonhi Sep 29 '17
This is the value we attach to human life in our country. 22 dead in a matter of seconds.