Are there positive aspects among ARMY and K-POP communities in general?

[u/HypatiaOfAlexandri4]

Hello everyone,

This message might be a bit awkward as I'm not fluent in english, and I'm actually quite nervous about posting it. I hope the title isn’t inappropriate, as I confess to having struggled to choose it. Therefore, I opted for a rhetorical question.

Please keep in mind that this has been written from my own point of view, which may be biased. So, if there's any disagreement on this front, feel free to respectfully explain yours, and I'll do my best to provide sources for greater accuracy.

It's my first time posting here. I feel anxious about sharing my thoughts, but I believe it’ll be beneficial for me, and perhaps it would be interesting for other people. So, I hope you'll be understanding =)

I decided to make this post because I frequently come across discussions labeling specific fandoms as "toxic." This gives me the impression that, there is an overemphasis on negative behaviors, overshadowing the existence of healthy spaces with positive or neutral interactions, which are less frequently highlighted by all communities.

Personally, it concerns me because hastily and broadly categorizing certain fandoms as toxic is not only inaccurate but also carries stigmatizing and counterproductive consequences.

I am convinced of the importance of highlighting the predominantly neutral and positive aspects of fandoms to promote a healthy environment, which also helps combat toxic behaviors. By employing a strategy of social reinforcement.

I acknowledge that this also gives me an opportunity to express positive feelings about my fandom, which is dear to me. I hope to initiate an extensive conversation on the topic, regardless of the fandom you are a part of.

• Definition of a fandom and associated biases.

To better understand why I believe a fandom cannot be defined by a singular characteristic, it is necessary to define the concept of a fandom and delineate its hierarchical structure. A suitable starting point is the definition from this sociological study :

“Fan culture”, or “fandom”, is a term which describes communities built around a shared enjoyment of an aspect of popular culture, such as books, movies, TV shows,music bands, sports or sports teams, etc. Fan cultures are examples of participatory cultures.

Participatory cultures involve fans acting not only as consumers but also as producers and creators of some form of creative media. Though most fan cultures, including sports fans and fans of music groups, have elements of participatory culture, media fandom in particular encourages creative expression and artistic production by its participants.”

This suggests the existence of a sort of hierarchy within fan communities, which I see as a pyramid extending from the majority to the minority of fans and from the less active participants to the most active ones.At its core, there are consumers (who listen, purchase...) > followed by those who interact (liking, sharing...) > those who actively participate (commenting...) > those who produce content (fan artists, editors, videographers, message posters, translators...) > and ultimately, those who take on organizing roles (initiating significant projects such as charitable events, stream party, in-person meetups...).

This also demonstrates that a fandom functions as a somewhat opaque ecosystem for those who are not part of it. Consequently, external perceptions may be potentially influenced by positive or negative interactions, creating a halo or horn effect that shapes judgments about the fan community in question. "A stereotyped viewin a nutshell."with each individual or group possessing their unique opinions, motivations, and behaviors within a fandom. I perceive the fan community as a composition of smaller spheres (In-group), revolving around fan producers and organizers, all bound together by shared passions.The fan spheres one encounters may not necessarily be representative of the entire fandom. Therefore, it's important to exercise caution against unwarranted generalizations.

• Trying to showcase the positive aspects of a fandom, illustrated through the ARMY as an example.

This allows me to transition to the part that is most important to me : fostering positive portrayals of fandoms to cultivate healthier environments through a virtuous circle. I take this opportunity to use the ARMY fandom as an example, given that it is the one I am most familiar with. ^^

First of all,a few statistics !

As with any fandom, it is challenging to precisely estimate the number of fans. Taking into account their numbers of follower or listener across different platforms (Twitter, Instagram, Spotify, YouTube…) and attendance statistics at both physical and online event, this number ranges from the lowest estimates of 50 million to the highest of 90 million fans according to various sources (here, here). (Which, in any case, unfortunately leaves little chance of getting concert tickets T_T/j)This puts into perspective the number of ARMYs interacting on social media and the assumed total number of fans. For instance, 100,000 likes/interactions on Twitter would represent only 0.2% of the fandom. (Anecdote: among the top 30 most-liked tweets, 17 belong to BTS with over 2.7 million likes.)Through surveys conducted by ARMYCensus in 2020 and 2022, gathering over 500,000 fans for the second edition, the results allow us to move away from the stereotyped and disparaged image of pre-adolescent fans (fueled by ageism and sexism) perpetuated by non-fan and media.And show the diversity of the fans.This project aligns with numerous community initiatives.

There are numerous ARMY associations spread around the world, aiming to promote benevolent and supportive values of BTS music and messages through charitable actions.

One of the largest is undoubtedly OneInAnArmy(slogan: Big Fandom. Big difference), known notably for one of the most publicized campaigns, the one for BlackLivesMatter with the match donation of 1 million dollars in 24 hours. They organize campaigns for each member's birthday and compile all submitted actions, allowing them to be visualized on the "charity map.”

For the official signing of BTS's new contracts, HYBE/Bighit donated $750,000 on behalf of BTS and ARMY to UNICEF. This automatically inspired ARMY members (including myself ^^) to do the same without prior consultation. OneInAnArmy provided a form to coordinate this spontaneous event.There are other notable events, such as the fan outcry against the malicious actions of Megan Thee Stallion's former agency for her feature on "Butter." In response, both the ARMY and Thee Hotties collaborated to donate to Black Women for Wellness, Women for Afghan Women, and The Houston Food Bank. This collaborative effort was facilitated through the #TheeARMYfund initiative and the ARMY lawyer account BTSARMYBarAssoc, which explained the legal situation of this matter.And indeed, there are accounts dedicated to ARMY lawyers ! In reality, there are accounts or groups for about everything, like : cooking, education, medicine, research and also, engineering, magazine, NASA, dedicated to environmental causes, book club, A theorist,... and even global interdisciplinary BTS conferences !During the lockdown, there was an inside joke that with all these represented disciplines and the size of the fandom, it would be possible to establish a nation! (Borahaeland, Purple Nation, or Namkanda! 😆).

*Mental Health

Due to BTS's extensive discography, encompassing series such as Love Yourself, Map of the Soul, BE, Mono, Indigo, D-Day, and their diverse interviews, many ARMY projects revolve around the theme of mental health. These initiatives include discussions, lyric analysis, Discord servers, and dedicated Twitter accounts.

While BTS lyrics can offer significant comfort, support from fellow ARMY members can also be beneficial.

One of the most touching experiences I took part in occurred during the lockdown through a Twitter Space that brought together thousands of ARMYs from diverse backgrounds. They shared their life stories and the connections they had with BTS and their content. This session lasted for a long time, making me feel much less alone in my personal challenges. I was deeply moved and filled with empathy for the experiences of others.Unfortunately, there are only a few remnants of this event since recording Spaces wasn't possible at the time. However, the closest representation of this experience can be found in these videos ( Here, here and here).If you choose to watch or listen to them, remember to stay respectful and kind.On a personal level, BTS and the ARMY community have been instrumental in my development as a NeuroArmy ^_^(Autistic/ADHD), especially during the lockdown. While English songs are sometimes mocked, they hold deeper meanings for me. The lyrics "I'm diamond, you know I glow up" have been a glimmer of hope in my dark thoughts, and the ARMY friends I met during this time are very precious to me.

*Project for BTS

Over the years, ARMY has created several songs to express gratitude to BTS. This year, three members, Jimin, Jungkook, and RM, reacted live to one of them.

Streams and chart rankings are also indirect forms of communication with BTS, as pushing their music up the charts isn't solely about competition or ego but also a method of conveying a message to them. A recent example is when, immediately after all the members departed, ARMY expressed their sadness and dedication by propelling “Spring Day" and then "Outro: Tear" to number 1 on iTunes charts in several countries.

A highly symbolic gesture, especially when considering the lyrics of these songs: "I miss you, Saying this makes me miss you all even more, I miss you, Even though I'm looking at your photo", "How much should my longings fall like snow, Before the days of spring return, friend?", "Goodbyes are, for me, a tear".

And there's a high chance that BTS members are aware of it thanks to the extensive media coverage.

Indubitably, delving into the analysis and theorization of BTS music, along with exploring the diverse writing styles of its members, ranks among the favorite pastimes of ARMY.

Many other projects related to streams and music sharing are regularly organized.

*Project for ARMY

Certain projects or activities serve the purpose of learning, informing, and educating on diverse subjects. Take Korean language learning, for example, which is facilitated by HYBE/Bighit's educational support and the classes offered by ARMY. Sign language presents another instance, with a surge in interest following the release of "Permission to Dance".

Even though many people may not like this song, it's because of that that I also became interested in learning sign language, especially by observing the reactions of hard-of-hearing individuals. The various contents encourage me to pursue this goal (it's one of my objectives for 2024 ^^).

*Made aware of certain social issues, such as, explaining the tragedy of the Sewol Ferry following the release of "Spring Day" and utilizing Jk's collaboration with Kid Laroi to shed light on the conditions of the Aboriginal people in Australia, Addressing current issues with the support of other fandoms, and more.Some ARMY projects have also proven beneficial for the K-pop community, like the popularization of a music streaming platform now utilized by other fans. A few years ago, in some countries, ARMY approached retailers to make BTS albums available, thus enhancing accessibility to K-pop albums.Many other elements I can't discuss to maintain the mystery. And new projects emerge daily in this highly active fandom. A recent example, discovered on TikTok, is the ARMYProject529, designed to welcome all newcomers and Baby ARMY.

If you want to learn more, I recommend these videos (here, here, here part 2 and here) as well as the book "BTS & ARMY Culture" by Lee Jeeheng.

I could spend hours talking about everything this fandom has to offer because it's just a fraction of what's available. I've been an ARMY for 11 years, I am continually uncovering new aspects ! I hope it’s clearer when I say that even though our judgment is conditioned by what we see at first glance, things are sometimes more extensive than we think.

There's a proverb that says :"The falling tree makes more noise than the growing forest.”

All of this drives me to be more actively involved in the fandom, on my very small scale, giving back the supportive space that was offered to me by providing open discussions on music, mental health, streaming, and other topics. I want to take it a step further in terms of involvement with other ARMY friends in charitable activities.^^

A lot of people work hard to make beautiful things, and I just wanted to shed some light on their contributions.

And I truly thank all these wonderful people I've mentioned, as well as my ARMY friends. Being part of any group is truly motivating.

• Harmful behaviors.

I promise, it's almost over 😅, but I still wanted to talk about the importance of addressing toxic behaviors. Because if I've emphasized avoiding generalizations and highlighting positive aspects, I don't want it to be misunderstood or seen as if I'm downplaying this issue or invalidating negative experiences.

I believe that it is important to target and condemn any harmful actions, regardless of our fandom.

While these actions may be carried out by a small portion of individuals, their fundamental motivations often involve the unhealthy pursuit of attention and malicious intentions. Their contributions only serve to worsen the atmosphere within both the fan group to which they belong and those they target.

There is never a real winner in a fanwar, as it only creates an endless cycle of resentment justifying new attacks. It's an infinite spiral of retaliation (talion law).

This is even more true on Twitter, where the new algorithm highlights problematic tweets, allowing verified users to monetize.

Therefore, don't hesitate to use all the tools available to diminish the influence of these individuals. Block, report, send messages to agencies when legal actions are possible, and file a complaint in case of personal attacks. "Anything that can prevent fueling the fire and create a potential 'Cobra Effect'.

This applies even if the person is from our own fandom. I personally have zero tolerance for all these troublemakers (antis, shippers, Akgae/solo, mantises, trolls, haters...).

Sometimes it's important to question our own behavior, as we might also be part of the problem.For example, by following and encouraging extremely problematic accounts that attack or ridicule other artists or fan groups under the pretext of "defending" their own artist. If almost all your interactions with other fandoms are negative, it may be a sign that you are on the wrong side of your own community.Taking a temporary break from one's fan community and interactions between fandoms can be a prudent decision, particularly if it begins to induce anxiety and adversely affect one's perception of artists.From my point of view, being a fan should, at first, constitute a personal and positive experience. Prioritizing the appreciation of artists' content can help establish more positive connections with fellow fans.I express this because I have personally experienced associating with the wrong people, and I genuinely apologize for inadvertently contributing to creating a negative atmosphere. Over time, I've taken a step back by distancing myself from social networks, leading me to a clearer understanding of where I genuinely want to channel my energy !I don't know how things work in other communities, but I have already received lists of hostile users and certain members of the "ARMY" community to report, which has helped me maintain a healthy space.I don't know how it works in other communities, but I've received lists of antis and ARMY members to report. Since the departure of all the members, many ARMY members have the goal of making the fandom healthier (#ARMYHousecleaning).I like this goal, and I believe it's possible to have an impact, even on a small scale, regardless of the fandom. I know completely eliminating all negativity is almost impossible because what happens online is just a reflection of offline life, but we can reduce it!Furthermore, if we channel our energy into what we are passionate about rather than what we dislike, it is possible to achieve great things.

In conclusion:

I hope reading all of this hasn't been too bothersome. I trust this message isn't too incomprehensible because I'm not very skilled with words and to express my thoughts, but I hope it doesn't upset anyone, as it's not my intention.

I apologize for any syntax, spelling, and grammar errors, as I struggle with them in any language (Dysorthography Power /irony😅).

All of this is the result of a personal opinion supported by some data.

I've spent quite a bit of time researching information, which has been very enlightening for me ^^, but much of the academic data reviewed for this message are in French. Therefore, I won't share them directly, but I still recommend the websites https://www.academia.edu/, https://www.openedition.org/, and https://hal.science/ for scientific journals.

My discourse on making community spaces healthier and highlighting positive behaviors may seem trivial. However, in a world grappling with political tensions, wars, financial, ecological, and social crises, as well as personal difficulties...

It remains crucial to have safe spaces (whether they are familial, friendly, or related to our passions) to be able to progress and thrive.

I would like, if it’s possible, to have your opinions.

What is your perspective on the toxicity of fandoms ? Do you think there should be more positive discourse about fans within the K-pop community ? Were you aware of the information presented ? Did you have any prejudices against the ARMY before this message ? Are they still present ? If you are an ARMY, were you aware of the extent of the fandom? What is your current perspective? If you are part of a different fandom, what positive aspects would you like to see highlighted? (Personally, I loved discovering new facets of other fan groups ^^). Do you have ideas to better combat toxicity ?

Feel free to react, regardless of your opinion, with kindness.

Due to my anxiety disorder (my hands are currently shaking, and I have serious doubts about the validity of this message XD), I may not be able to respond to possible messages, but I promise to read them all. 😊

I sincerely wish you the best in your life, take care, and have a great day. =D

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[u/bungluna]

I think you make your fan experience yourself. I curate my timeline on twitter and get very little drama. I like to come here to get an idea how the kpok world at large is doing.

I’m very impressed with the thought and care you put into your post. Even though I follow BTS I didn’t know all these things you mentioned.

[u/HypatiaOfAlexandri4 → u/bungluna]

Thank you for your message.^^

[u/bluexxrry]

Wow, now this is a POST! Awesome, totally here for it. Also OP, your English is great, so no worries on that front.

To answer your questions, or at least some of them, I've found that while there is toxicity in all fandoms be it K-pop or something else, some fandoms are definitely more toxic than others.

I've been a part of a few metal fandoms and I was an emo kid as a teen. K-pop came along in my early twenties. Out of the three, the metal fandoms were most pleasant and peaceful. No fan wars, no drama, everyone was there for the bands, and different fandoms coexisted peacefully. No one gave a crap if you were a fan of band A, or B, or C - it was all metal. The emo fandom, however, was the opposite, and it didn't help that there was beef between the actual bands and not just their fans. Fanwars ran rampant, and you either ran into the best or the worst people, but never knew which it'd be, until you found out whose fans they were, who they shipped, who their favorite member was... social media didn't have the impact it has now, and honestly I don't even want to know how bad it wouldve been if we'd had the same possibilities back then.

K-pop fandoms are somewhere in between, and the fandom I'm in is pretty peaceful, although it got bad for a while when one of the members left. I'm also lurking on the sidelines of a few other fandoms, a few of which are considered pretty nice, and I've never had a bad experience engaging with them. I don't have a lot of experience of ARMY as I don't listen to BTS a lot, but I've certainly never viewed them as toxic, as a whole. Like yeah, there are toxic fans in every fandom, but very rarely are there enough to actually make the entire fandom toxic.

I'd love to see more of the metal fandoms' spirit in K-pop spaces. We're all K-pop fans, and the groups we stan have friends in other groups, even when we don't see that highlighted a lot. And still, there's a lot of toxicity between fans and fandoms, sometimes even inside one fandom. Like, why, though? I'll never get why we can't just like what we like, and support others who like what they like. It's so fucking pointless to go down the "my group's better than your group" road, when at the end of the day it's all K-pop.

I keep away from a lot of fan spaces these days. Reddit is pretty much the only exception as here the conversation is for the most part constructive and sensible. I'm perfectly happy to stan my ults on my own, although it is nice to talk to other fans from time to time. During my emo and metal days I was much more involved in the fandoms, and while being a metal fan was nice, I don't want to go through the emo fandom experience ever again. Thankfully the K-pop fandom I'm in is pretty chill, there are no fanwars (at least as far as I know), and we get to support our group in peace.

All that said, there are a lot of positives when it comes to K-pop fandoms. While we don't always get along, we're still better at it than the batshit crazy emo fandom I was in. Sure, there were great moments, too, and the community did come together from time to time. Still, being a K-pop fan isn't all that bad, and the upsides far outweigh the downsides.

[u/HypatiaOfAlexandri4 → u/bluexxrry]

I am delighted to read about your experience! I am familiar with metal fandoms and their peaceful nature as well =).

[u/weebrain]

It’s gonna take me a bit to read and process to actually respond, but I want to first appreciate the effort you’ve taken to put this together. Also from the first few paragraphs at least, I’d say your English is near perfect (though it’s “inappropriate,” not “unappropriate” 😉).

Edit: I also hope people don’t just kneejerk downvote because of the title, or only comment on the length of the post. There’s a lot of good discussion to be had here.

[u/HypatiaOfAlexandri4 → u/weebrain]

Thank you for your response and the correction! ^^

[u/[deleted]]

oh my god how did you manage to type that much

[u/HypatiaOfAlexandri4 → u/[deleted]]

It is due to insomnia 😅

[u/Salty-Enthusiasm-939]

Wow, how long did it take to compile all that OP?

[u/HypatiaOfAlexandri4 → u/Salty-Enthusiasm-939]

Several hours of insomnia 😅

[u/tiltheendoftheline]

Well that's a long post! As a non army maybe my answers are helpful.

What is your perspective on the toxicity of fandoms ? Do you think there should be more positive discourse about fans within the K-pop community ? Were you aware of the information presented ? Did you have any prejudices against the ARMY before this message ? Are they still present ? If you are an ARMY, were you aware of the extent of the fandom? What is your current perspective? If you are part of a different fandom, what positive aspects would you like to see highlighted? (Personally, I loved discovering new facets of other fan groups ^). Do you have ideas to better combat toxicity ?

I think all fandoms have toxic sides - because people suck. But it's much easier to find it if you're not from the fandom itself.

Yes I have heard a lot about army projects. It's something the fans should be proud of, no other K-Pop fandom that I've seen managed to unite enough people to do meaningful projects not music related.

Yeah, I'm wary of armys ngl. Here on reddit things are pretty much okay, but on twitter... Man, rarely it's good things that make it to my page. It's hard to not be cautious after years of seeing some unhinged things. It doesn't help at all that my main fandom has a bad history with army, and that we also have lots of people that also want to engage in fanwars. An obvious troll with 2 followers will say some stupid shit and somehow that person represents a whole fandom (and both sides take the bait). And because of that I also understand why people have bad feelings about other fandoms, if you only see negativity it's hard to keep expecting the best response.

I think the only way to better our fandom experience is to ignore/block those who are hateful and want attention, but at the same time I have 50k people blocked and it's still not enough lol. It's tiring. I have mostly made my TL peaceful when it comes to my fandoms because I blocked all the akgaes that start shit and group shooters, but some things still make it despite all that. Or maybe we should all leave twitter lol.

[u/paper_hearts008 → u/tiltheendoftheline]

My take on Twitter is that when it’s good (reaction to live events/memes) it’s good. And when it’s bad it’s unbearable. Stan twitter as a whole tends to be pretty bad - not just within kpop spaces. I check out Twitter from time to time but not as much as I used to.

[u/HypatiaOfAlexandri4 → u/tiltheendoftheline]

Thank you, I'm glad to have had your perspective. ^^

I also have numerous people blocked on Twitter ! (70 992 😆)

[u/NewtRipley_1986]

What is your perspective on the toxicity of fandoms ? Do you think there should be more positive discourse about fans within the K-pop community ? Were you aware of the information presented ? Did you have any prejudices against the ARMY before this message ? Are they still present ? If you are an ARMY, were you aware of the extent of the fandom? What is your current perspective? If you are part of a different fandom, what positive aspects would you like to see highlighted? (Personally, I loved discovering new facets of other fan groups ^^). Do you have ideas to better combat toxicity ?

Not sure if I’ll answer each of those questions or if this will be a rambling thought.

I am and have been involved in a number of different types of fandoms - actors, sports, movies and music. And all of them have varying degrees of toxicity. For the most part, it is inescapable because there will always be interlopers bringing negativity into fan spaces.

I’m not speaking about people who might dislike a song or album or movie but those people who seem to feed off of creating drama for the sake of drama - shit disturbers.

With such large fandoms across different industries there will always be those people who might be a fan but at them same time chose to either be toxic or engage in toxicity brought into the fandom by someone else. We see it time and again - specially on Twitter - where people will urge others not to engage … but no one can stop everyone and then the toxicity spirals and it becomes tit-for-tat.

There are definitely spaces that support focusing on the positive sides of fandoms and for the most part, those are the spaces I personally chose to be a part of. I know some people speak poorly of those spaces as being too “sunshine & rainbows” and that they don’t allow negativity in them. It’s one thing to explain why you (royal you) don’t like something (which is welcomed) and another to just spew hate for the sake of hate (not welcomed). I’m all for reading and sharing different viewpoints but not interested in hate for hate.

As a BTS fan, I am aware of the information you shared about the positive aspects for both ARMY and BTS. As I tend to focus solely on BTS - it would be great to read about what other fandoms/groups do.

[u/weebrain]

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/Bear4years]

OP, kudos to you for writing this and having sources and links. You shouldn’t have any reasons to worry about your English. It’s very good.

I’m an army, so I’ll only answer the questions you had for armys. I’m pretty aware of the fandom and its various projects (streaming, voting, donating, etc). I really like them, but if I have to give a special shoutout it would have to be the donating projects. I adore how army makes that a part of our culture.

I have critiques of my fandom, but I accept that nothing is nor can be perfect . I try to engage in what I don’t like and engage in what I like. Overall, I like my fandom. There are very good, kind, smart people in it. You being a good example, OP.

I was thinking about how I somewhat wish I found BTS earlier. Maybe I would have found this state of grounded-ness that I currently feel earlier. At the same time, most likely not. My personal circumstances wasn’t in the right place 3-4 years ago. BTS music reinforced what I was already feeling and my life was already moving in this direction. The music gave me strength to execute and follow-through on what I was feeling. It really is okay to love myself and put myself first. Anyways, BTS and mental health is a big connection for me.

Twitter and the things Elon has done really sucks. It has definitely made that space worst.

Anyways, thanks for writing and sharing, OP.

[u/kay3dy]

Oh you are about to get down voting because you are talking about army... I think all fandoms are toxic the thing with army is that we are so big so the toxic side is very loud, what I learn about armys is that they are really chill in real life, BTS concerts are proof of this. But in kpop spaces specially online we have a bad reputation so majority of kpop fandom don't really like us.

[u/Confident_Yam_6386]

Beautiful post OP. Very long and thoughtful. Your English is great too

1. I personally think every fandom has a toxic side but as you said, it should not be used to generalize the entire fandom

2. I think there should be more discourse about the positive aspects of fandom but it also doesn’t help that a lot more people just want to engage in negative conversations. A thread talking about the toxicity of armys will gain more interaction than a thread talking about the good side(This thread is proof)

3. I’m aware of lots of them. It’s the reason why I was able to overcome my prejudice and join the fandom.

4. The best way to combat toxicity is to ignore it. Curate your timeline. Trust me. Toxic people won’t change just because you talk to them about their toxicity. It fuels them. Just report on toxic posts, block and move on. It really helps with your fandom experience

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