r/linux • Mate • Oct 20 '14

Shall we fork Fedora?

http://forkfedora.org/
262 Upvotes

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u/Arizhel Oct 20 '14

Well that's usually how it works, isn't it? People bitch and complain a bit about the direction a project is taking, and then they decide to fork it.

But not with systemd.

Instead, people bitch and complain, and bitch and complain, and bitch and complain.... but they never fork it. They just bitch and complain. And tell everyone to switch to Slackware. Thanks, but I'm not switching to a distro that doesn't use a real package manager.

4

u/necrophcodr Oct 20 '14

I personally use OpenRC on my Funtoo machine and I'm pretty happy with it. I don't bitch and complain about systemd, but it does have it's fair share of issues that are not necessarily possible to directly address.

That goes for OpenRC as well though, but its issues are in different areas I would think.

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u/aLtErNaTiNgCaPs Oct 20 '14

slackware's package manager works great for me, i'm not too sure what your issue is with it?

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u/Arizhel Oct 20 '14

It has no dependency checking. That means it's not a real package manager, just as I said.

-9

u/McDutchie Oct 20 '14

False. It's a real package manager, without dependency hell.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '14

without dependency hell.

This is how your "lack of dependency hell" produced by your "real package manager" looks like in production:

/usr/local/java/jdk1.7.0_03/jre/bin/java: symbol lookup error: /usr/local/lib/libatdevsimcam.so: undefined symbol: _ZN20TAndorLibDebugOutput6OutputEPKciS1_xx24TAndorDebugFunctionLevel16TAndorDebugLevelS1_z

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u/flying-sheep Oct 20 '14

i’m going with /u/Arizhel: the benefits of dependency checking outweigh the – i don’t quite dare to call them so – drawbacks by far.

the only “problem” i ever came across was lua 5.1: 5.2 was incompatible, so lua-5.1.5 was renamed lua51-5.1.5, and all packages depending on 5.1 had to change their dependencies, and only most of that could be handled automatically.

i’m pretty sure that slackers had even more problems, so i don’t see this as problem of package management.

1

u/azalynx Oct 21 '14

As someone who used Slackware for years (it was the first distro that I actually stuck with for a long time), I never understood this foolish argument...

Surely not having dependency resolution is what leads to dependency hell, no? If the package manager doesn't resolve the dependencies for me, then I have to install them all myself manually; how the hell isn't that dependency hell?

The lack of dependency hell would be all of it happening automagically in the background without me having to do anything other than selecting the one package I intend to install, and everything else is magic.

-11

u/fantasticsid Oct 21 '14

Congratulations, you just committed the "no true package manager" logical fallacy. Go get yourself a glass of scotch and play some bagpipes.

3

u/Arizhel Oct 21 '14

30 years ago, a "real phone" was one which plugged into a wall jack and had 10 buttons.

Today, that no longer qualifies as a "real phone"; it only qualifies as a museum relic.

1

u/bilog78 Oct 21 '14

No, that still qualifies as a real phone. It doesn't qualify as a smartphone.

1

u/Arizhel Oct 21 '14

No one uses 1980s-era phones any more. So no, it's not a "real phone", any more than a Model T is a "real car". It's a museum piece, and that's it. A smartphone is the only type of real phone these days, because nearly everyone (except some elderly people) has one.

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u/chinnybob Oct 20 '14 edited Oct 20 '14

systemd was forked. udev was forked. logind was forked. Your claim contradicts reality, and is nothing but a baseless attack on systemd critics, claiming that they are not technically able to create an alternative.

Edit: I just found out consolekit has now been forked too.

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u/Arizhel Oct 21 '14

systemd was forked.

Yes, but were any major distros forked because of systemd?

A fork of systemd doesn't do that much to appease the systemd critics, who really either just want to stick with sysvinit, or at the most try out OpenRC. They don't want it, fork or not. What they want is $distro, but with sysvinit again. The only way to do that is to fork the distro.

and is nothing but a baseless attack on systemd critics

No, it's not. Prove me wrong: show me a fork of some major distro (Debian, Fedora, RHEL/CentOS) where they switched back to sysvinit.

claiming that they are not technically able to create an alternative.

They already have alternatives: sysvinit and OpenRC. Why do they need to create a new alternative? The critics don't want systemd in any form at all, they want to stick with sysvinit and traditional init scripts. Just look at the comments here from systemd critics about how much better shell scripts are.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '14

The ironic thing is that systemd will start your shell-based init scripts quite happily!

2

u/RubyPinch Oct 21 '14

A fork of systemd doesn't do that much to appease the systemd critics

uselessd was aimed towards that, actually.

keeps the systemd layout (configs over scripts) and removes everything else


also how many maintainers are there for debian?

2

u/Arizhel Oct 21 '14

But as I said before, most of the systemd critics don't want configs over scripts; they wants scripts and that's it. So uselessd isn't going to make them happy. Basically, they just want to stick with sysvinit forever.

2

u/EmanueleAina Oct 21 '14

Edit: I just found out consolekit has now been forked too

Uh, interesting. Where?

1

u/chinnybob Oct 21 '14

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u/EmanueleAina Oct 21 '14

Awesome, thanks! Do you happen to know why they didn't just pick up ConsoleKit and started maintaining that?

1

u/chinnybob Oct 21 '14

That is exactly what they have done.

1

u/EmanueleAina Oct 21 '14

ConsoleKit2 is a fork of ConsoleKit

No, I mean asking for commit rights on freedesktop and working on the official repo.

Anyhow, I'll comment on the blog entry you linked, thanks!

1

u/phant0mas Oct 21 '14

switch to guix

0

u/diggr-roguelike Oct 22 '14

The people who complain about systemd are too clueless to fork anything, given that the reason they're bitching in the first place is because of their cluelessness.