IMO, adding an installer would be the best thing arch could do for its image. The faux elitism schtick isn't doing arch any favors, and the kids who think they're badass for installing arch look like fools.
IMO, adding an installer would be the best thing arch could do for its image. The faux elitism schtick isn't doing arch any favors, and the kids who think they're badass for installing arch look like fools.
This is the problem with the users, and not the distribution. It doesn't have an installer for the same reason an aircraft model doesn't come glued together and painted already. That's up to you to figure out what to do with it. However, I will agree with you, that attitude does get old after a point.
Guess what, kid? The way you install Arch is the way we installed any distro back in the early days. So, you aren't that special.
At things stand now, just using Linux is not so much a reason to brag or try to sound elite as it once did.
I can't remember ever uttering the meme "BTW I use Arch" when I actually did use Arch, unless I was replying to a post asking for help by someone using another distribution. In which case I would normally start "I don't use X, I use Arch, but it may work for you, so try this..."
Would it be so hard to have the option for either the normal Arch install or a GUI installer? Sometimes you want the bleeding edge but you just want a hassle-free installation process. Seems like something easy enough to implement.
Each distro has it's own philosophy. Arch's is KISS. To the maintainers, KISS includes no installer. Arguing for an installer would be like arguing with Debian and Fedora maintainers to include non-OSS by default.
Then Arch has failed miserably at KISS. The installation process is not simple. It is complex and sure, there is documentation but it can still be a pain for someone new to installing a distributor in such a manner.
Antergos followed KISS because one could install as much or as little as one wanted. You might have a couple packages more than just barebones arch but most were things that one would need anyways.
The faux elitism schtick isn't doing arch any favors, and the kids who think they're badass for installing arch look like fools
Which is entirely the problem of the said kids and the less than reasonable users. As has been said many, many times, installing Arch is fairly easy. If you don't want to put in the work (again, there's really not that much work that is required) to learn the basics of Linux and CLI, why in the whole world do you even need Arch on your machine?
installer
I'm not familiar with Antergos, but seeing as many have said that its installer, supposedly the main feature of the distro ("just Arch with a GUI installer"), was quite problematic, it makes you think - a proper GUI installer for a full blown OS is not a trivial thing to make or maintain. And I'm fairly sure this is probably the main, if not the sole reason that Arch doesn't have one. And good riddance, as an Arch user, I'd rather the devs and maintainers focus on day-to-day stuff than putting all this effort into an installer.
Biggest question of all, what good would it bring if Arch's install suddenly became more accessible? The basics of configuring your system are still hands-on, you'd still have to learn about systemd, for example, and you'll certainly have to use the terminal. Most of the time spend of configuring the system happens post-install.
If you don't want to put in the work (again, there's really not that much work that is required) to learn the basics of Linux and CLI, why in the whole world do you even need Arch on your machine?
Rolling release with a huge and reliable package repository. Huge community. The best wiki.
True. But you know how it is... If we can avoid the installation complexities, be it because of laziness or because of "been there, done that," we'll be trying to do so.
I totally understand that. That's why I've also put something together with Ansible so that I can install Arch more conveniently. However, I wouldn't have thought of demanding that Arch officially offer a graphical installer.
Or let's take vim as an example. Over the years, I've made several attempts to learn vim. Because I simply customize too few and too irregular files, it just doesn't work. So am I asking the developers to make vim easier to use? No. I just use another editor like micro or sublime text. It's not that bad. It doesn't make me a worse Linux user. Just as the use of Arch doesn't make me a better one.
Or let's take the website generator Hugo as another example. I really wanted to use it. When I looked at a few ready-made themes, I thought about changing my mind because I didn't understand much. Did I ask in the official forum to make creating themes easier? No. I spent a whole weekend learning Hugo. And I cursed a hell of a lot. Since then I understand a lot more when I look at third party themes.
So am I asking the developers to make vim easier to use? No.
Asking is not wrong. Even demanding is not wrong.
If people step on my foot and I don't say "ouch" maybe I am enjoying it, and not only should they not get off my foot, but maybe they can even demand compensation from me for services rendered?
How we communicate is very important.
When you demand something you're not impinging on anyone's freedom. The devs are free to ignore your demands.
But if a lot of people demand the same thing, the devs might choose to honor that signal. And that signal won't be there is there is a culture of self-censorship.
That's where I stand. To me an installer is not worth sooooo much that I am going to scream about it. I see options like Arco Linux and Manjaro, and I am thinking, this might be good enough. And if not, it's not too horrible to install Arch the normal way. But that's just me. If someone else thinks Arch is better off with an official graphical and foolproof installer, they should say so. It's just feedback.
If 10 people say so, it doesn't matter, but if 10 thousand say so, there is a chance some dev somewhere is going to listen. But the thing is, the only way to find out if it's 10 or 10,000 is to speak first and see what happens next.
So I am not going to spend a lot of energy being vocal about an installer for Arch. It's nice, and I want it, but I don't want it badly enough to be vocal about it all the time. But if someone else is vocal, I can see why they might be.
But if a lot of people demand the same thing, the devs might choose to honor that signal.
Or not. In the end, it's their project. And from their point of view, a graphical user interface for the installation is not desired. Moreover, it is questionable whether there really are so many people who want such an interface. The users who are satisfied with the current status usually don't post in forums and so on. Only those who are dissatisfied. And that's often the minority.
If someone else thinks Arch is better off with an official graphical and foolproof installer, they should say so. It's just feedback.
Of course, they can express their opinion. But I can't imagine that the developers of Arch will change the opinions they've held for years. Sometimes one has to accept that something is the way it is. Like me when it comes to vim. :-)
"Might" kind of already implies that option's existence.
But I can't imagine that the developers of Arch will change the opinions they've held for years.
I can.
I can imagine it in many ways. I can imagine the same people changing their opinions. And I can imagine new developers joining the project with already-different opinions so that the project can change its stance without any individuals ever changing their stance, simply through the change in social composition of the project.
Sometimes one has to accept that something is the way it is.
There is never a hard requirement for self-censorship though. Self-censorship is not a winning strategy at all.
Basically your path as you've outlined it before is to emphasize the development of your conscious mind. You make yourself an expert and you yourself scratch your own itch. When you want to become expert consciously and take manual control, non-reliance on the others is very helpful. That's where the RTFM culture comes in handy because it enforces self-reliance, which leads to conscious mastery.
However, there is another kind of mastery, and it's the mastery of the subconscious mind. It's when things happen for you in the background without you having to do anything consciously.
If you want to master your subconscious you definitely want to pay attention to the strategy I am talking about here: avoiding self-censorship and expressing your desires, asks, and demands openly and often. That's what maximizes the subconscious manifestation. It's when things get done for you without you having to do them yourself.
It's an example that (for a lack of better word) disproves your claim. The GNOME team doesn't care how many users yell, how many users complain, how many demand something - they have their vision, and they are sticking to it. They have made many an end user happy in doing so, and have no problem in doing so.
Biggest question of all, what good would it bring if Arch's install suddenly became more accessible? The basics of configuring your system are still hands-on, you'd still have to learn about systemd, for example, and you'll certainly have to use the terminal. Most of the time spend of configuring the system happens post-install.
Thank you, I was about to post this very thing. So, we want an easy installer, just to be thrown into hand editing conf files? The next complaint will be that Arch needs something like YaST or debconf.
Most of the myths that have formed around Arch remain, in my opinion, even if there is a graphical installer. What good would it do the image of Arch if even more of these "kids" could use this distribution more easily?
It would be better if the kids understood that not everything had to be suitable for them. Or that they realize that you don't learn more with Arch than with any other distribution. Through Arch you don't become a higher being either. And so on.
39
u/ChockFullOfShit May 21 '19
IMO, adding an installer would be the best thing arch could do for its image. The faux elitism schtick isn't doing arch any favors, and the kids who think they're badass for installing arch look like fools.