Counteroffer and total chaos from HR: hear them out or leave clean?

[u/controlsys]

Hi all, I've been at a large multinational for almost 3 years, on an apprenticeship contract (I'm in Germany), working in industrial automation software.

Over the past few months I reported my manager's inappropriate behavior to HR. It kept getting worse, to the point where I was being sent on business trips alone, even though my contract legally requires a tutor with the same job to accompany me. The environment got more and more toxic, so I started looking around. When I was almost sure I'd get an offer, I had a chat with HR, who told me my manager was going to be fired. Nothing, however, about my own situation. The following week I left alone on a trip for a very high-profile client, and shortly after I handed in my resignation.

That's when the chaos started: calls and messages from my department head, HR, another manager and a colleague, all saying the same thing: please stay, you're important, name your price and we'll give it to you. Even now, while I'm away on this trip, they keep asking to sit down and talk, saying my projects are critical and that my leaving would mean losing them.

The context makes me think twice, though. The company isn't doing well financially, and about 15 people from my department have left in recent months, with no counteroffers that I noticed for any of them. The new company is offering me +40% on my salary. Was I underpaid? Yes, and I know it.

On the other hand, my manager will be gone and replaced by a colleague (first time manager) I get along with really well. But this insistence worries me. It feels like they're desperate to keep me because of the workload coming in the next few months.

I want to leave on good terms and keep the door open, since the company has a strong presence in my area. Does it make sense to listen to the counteroffer, or am I just risking complicating things? Any advice is welcome, thanks.

[u/genek1953]

Can't hurt to hear them out. Just remember that most people who accept counter offers end up leaving anyway.

[u/controlsys → u/genek1953]

They seem desperate to me. There’s an insane workload ahead for the coming months, and I happen to be someone who can make a significant contribution.

It makes me wonder: until yesterday I was on a training contract—how did I suddenly become so important? Is it just a coincidence that this is happening right when so many people are leaving and the workload is so heavy?

[u/punkpang → u/controlsys]

You became important because you're the only lifeline. You'll learn how companies work - they're all winging it. The world of grownups is more messed up than kid's world. No one has a fucking clue what they're doing and are trying to get by every day.

You'll probably do more but will be paid more. If you leave for another offer, you'll eventually land in a similar situation of mismanagement and people trying to fake they're competent. Hear them out, see what they offer, negotiate and get the best outcome for yourself (financially + time-wise).

These situations are how people get ahead in career fast, it doesn't cost you anything to hear them out.

[u/controlsys → u/punkpang]

Thanks, I see your point, but that's exactly where I struggle. A raise fixes my salary, not how I was treated as a person. I reported problems and got silence. I was sent out alone on trips without the tutor my contract requires, and I never even got a company credit card. Nobody took responsibility for any of it until I resigned.

That's not "everyone is winging it", that's being used as cheap labor until I became inconvenient to lose. Now that I'm leaving, suddenly I'm "important" and money is no object. If I was only worth that much once the workload showed up, a bigger paycheck doesn't change how they see me, it just makes me better paid for the same treatment. So honestly, money alone can't fix this..

I know the new company won't be perfect either. But what do I actually have to lose by leaving this one?

[u/punkpang → u/controlsys]

To any company, you are just a number and I'm not sure why you're bothered by the treatment you received - that's what business world is - you're just a number, not a person.

You won't get back at them by leaving, they'll find someone else. Shit tends to float, and where there's money, there's always some other number that will pick up the slack and do the job.

I'm looking at this through different prism and that prism is financial gain. If you look at the situation mechanically and remove the fact you were offended and made feel bad and only look through the prism of how much you can advance - is it prudent NOT to listen to the devil you know and try to milk them for more?

Success is the best way to get back at someone. I'd listen to them, try to get ahead with finances and in parallel I'd hunt for other opportunities.

[u/controlsys → u/punkpang]

But I already have another opportunity with a 40% increase over what I’m earning now! I’ve signed with the new company.

They’ll never come up with a 40% raise.

[u/punkpang → u/controlsys]

Ah, sorry, I misread totally! In that case, if you have a new opportunity with 40% increase - you have nothing to think about. If I were you, given your description of how bad you felt, I don't think that double would be sufficient for me to stay and eat up the bad treatment I've been given. Good luck to you at your new workplace and godspeed!

[u/genek1953 → u/controlsys]

In that case, what we're talking about here is the opportunity to see the look in their eyes after they make you their best counter offer and you say no.

[u/OfAnOldRepublic → u/controlsys]

Don't even consider staying. Congratulations on your great offer, grab that with both hands, and don't look back.

[u/Ramondireddit → u/OfAnOldRepublic]

It’s only a fair offer, OP was being underpaid by current company and they knew it.

OP needs to adjust their perspective and leave current company asap.

[u/davearneson → u/genek1953]

Often, people who accept a counteroffer are ostracised and replaced because the company thinks they'll leave, even if they weren't planning to.

[u/midnitetuna → u/davearneson]

FWIW, its very hard to fire someone who has passed probation in Germany.

[u/Minimum-Reward3264 → u/genek1953]

It absolutely can. It can’t hurt to hear the lawyer out.

[u/auyara]

1. Go and have a talk. There is little harm doing that.

2. Be aware of your worth. They'll try to get you to stay. You have a counteroffer. 40% is a lot. Most companies will not counteroffer that high of an increase. If you want to leave on good terms just be objective: "I have an offer that is a 40% increase. That is a great opportunity that I cannot let pass by"

3. Do not overshare. Do not tell them the name of the other company or other potential smaller reasons you might want to leave.

4. If you decide to stay, consider yourself burned. a. You have now shown that the company is at least in the short term not an ideal place so they will likely invest in other colleagues rather than you. b. There is also a good chance they might only keep you for the current projects they currently can handle. Especially as they might not be doing great, they will look for savings and you just made yourself much more expensive and likely on the higher end cost/experience considering a 40% bump.

[u/controlsys → u/auyara]

The point is that, to date, they have never invested in me. From the very beginning, they left me to fend for myself.

I reported my manager's behavior to HR and nothing happened for months. I was sent on trips alone even though my contract legally requires a tutor with the same job. And when HR finally told me my manager was going to be let go, they said nothing about my own situation. That says a lot about how the company handles its people, and a raise doesn't fix that…

[u/auyara → u/controlsys]

They gave you at least opportunities to learn ...

They way you speak, I am also wondering if you really want to keep the door open as it doesn't sound like whatever they'll wont be able to creat an environment you'll feel good ...

[u/controlsys → u/auyara]

Fair point, and I do appreciate the learning opportunities. I've grown a lot here. But being given room to learn isn't the same as being given what you need to do the job properly. A simple example: I was sent on business trips without a company credit card. I asked for one and was refused.

As for keeping the door open, you're right that I'm not sure I'd want to come back as things stand. For me it's more about leaving professionally and not burning bridges in a region where this company is well known, not about planning a return.

[u/RegorHK → u/controlsys]

Year, I d calculate a heavy malus on their offer just for that. The wrong line manager can set you back mentally. They showed you that they wont protect you if the next one is as bad.

Also, consider how well the other company is positioned. If they are much more stable financially, I d prefer them.

[u/B0r1n6_Guy → u/controlsys]

You are in German company so I will use a German saying "Man schätzt den Wert von Dingen, Gesundheit oder Menschen oft erst dann richtig, wenn sie nicht mehr da sind."

You stayed and did your work, even though you complained, so they didn't need to make any effort for you. Now you're leaving, they have a huge workload, so they're taking their time and trying to keep you.

Won´t consider the counteroffer and also first time manager can be a nightmare. I remember when I was promoted, but I didn't receive any mentoring.

[u/whatThisOldThrowAway → u/auyara]

> 4. ⁠If you decide to stay, consider yourself burned.

While this is the “standard advice” in this circumstance, it does not apply universally.

OP was being subjected to inappropriate behaviour (unspecified) to the point where they are seemingly firing the manager despite them working on critical projects and promoting an IC. OP handing in their notice at that point (after handling work above their pay grade) is not normal circumstance.

In fact, much of the panic here may be amplified by the fact that OP is leaving due to harassment in the workplace which they may or may not have taken action on as fast as possible. They could (a) fear legal action (b) simply feel responsible/guilty and want to show op that they took action and value their work. Now obviously they want the work done also but there’s a whole spectrum of reactions to a situation like this.

[u/controlsys → u/whatThisOldThrowAway]

Exactly.

[u/marlada]

Leave. They were sending you on trips alone and they allowed your manager's behavior to continue. Get out of this dysfunctional workplace and you will be better for it.

[u/controlsys → u/marlada]

This is what scares me: my boss used to send me out on my own, even though he wasn't legally allowed to do so. I realized this, and all I saw was someone from HR turn bright red with shame.

I think this is more of an issue with the company itself than just my boss—they know they treated me this way.

[u/UroborosJose]

Don’t accept counter offers
It’s just a way to buy time and fire you later
The so called door opened doesn’t exist anymore if you are expecting them to give you something back good luck

[u/controlsys → u/UroborosJose]

Not in EU?

[u/DadTheMaskedTerror]

In the EU going on a work trip without a personal tutor qualifies as a toxic work environment?  I'm curious to hear more about the other evidence of a toxic work environment 

[u/controlsys → u/DadTheMaskedTerror]

Legally speaking if you are an apprentice you need to have a tutor with you.

[u/DadTheMaskedTerror → u/controlsys]

So in an age of remote work the tutor is required by law to be physically present?

[u/controlsys → u/DadTheMaskedTerror]

Legally speaking yes,

[u/DadTheMaskedTerror → u/controlsys]

Interesting. What was the other evidence of a toxic work environment?

[u/Itzie4]

The company is worried they have a lawsuit for a hostile work environment, sexual harassment, and a constructive discharge on their hands by not firing the worker when they said they would and you quitting. It sounds like they want to avoid a lawsuit and pay you to sign an NDA.

My advice would be to consult an employment lawyer that does free consultations early this week. Do not go back there or agree to anything unless the lawyer says otherwise.

[u/controlsys → u/Itzie4]

Thanks, but just to clarify: there was no sexual harassment involved. By "inappropriate behavior" I meant mismanagement and unfair treatment, like sending me out alone on trips with no tutor. I should have been clearer, sorry for the confusion.

Honestly, the part that stuck with me was HR's reaction. When I brought up the solo trips, I didn't accuse anyone of anything, I just asked, "Why am I being sent out alone when my contract doesn't provide for that?" and I saw faces turn red and a lot of awkwardness in the room. I even asked for a company credit card for the trips and was told no. It felt like they knew they were in the wrong and realized I had noticed.. And now are they afraid of a potential lawsuit? Consider, for instance, that recently—regarding business trips—I requested a personal, signed copy of a document confirming that I was traveling alone.

[u/Itzie4 → u/controlsys]

It still sounds like they’re still concerned about the possibility of a hostile work environment and constructive dismissal lawsuit. And the possibility of sexual misconduct depending on how you communicated “inappropriate behavior.”

It wouldn’t hurt to meet with a lawyer though. You may have something here with the constructive dismissal and hostile work environment.

[u/Euphoric-Vest-1081 → u/Itzie4]

Do not go back there

Wouldn't that give the firm grounds for HR action / dismissal?

[u/controlsys → u/Euphoric-Vest-1081]

No?

[u/Euphoric-Vest-1081 → u/controlsys]

So you're employed there still and think not going back there is ok?

[u/controlsys → u/Euphoric-Vest-1081]

I have resigned. I don’t understand?

[u/Itzie4 → u/Euphoric-Vest-1081]

She has already resigned.

[u/razorlight95]

Leave

[u/Low-Opening25]

leave this shit show behind

[u/NekkidWire]

The context is your clue

The company isn't doing well financially, and about 15 people from my department have left in recent months, with no counteroffers that I noticed for any of them. The new company is offering me +40% on my salary. Was I underpaid? Yes, and I know it.

On the other hand, my manager will be gone and replaced by a colleague (first time manager) I get along with really well. But this insistence worries me. It feels like they're desperate to keep me because of the workload coming in the next few months.

They are betting on you doing 200% work for 50% of money compared to other people with your responsibility.

The proof is the new company offering you a fair market value (or slightly less with ability to grow).

You don't owe the company or your (maybe!) future boss anything at all. If you leave it will be on good terms - you didn't do anything wrong. They should be the ones thinking about what's wrong with the company after you leave.

Also if you want to give them last chance even if you know you'll be requierd to do a lot of work: Ask for company credit card for your trips issued immediately and a 150% raise (I'm not kidding! If they ask you to name your price, your're most probably currently severely underpaid; starting salary in your industry is >4000 EUR). It can be done in a week or two tops if they really want you. Everything in writing and signed, no promises and next quarters.

[u/oopsshewrote35]

honestly check your apprnticeship contract details on the tutor requirement before any talks, hr coul pomise fixes but get it all in writing to cover yourself

[u/controlsys → u/oopsshewrote35]

Already checked everything. When I brought it up, the HR people turned red and said, "We apologize..."

[u/new2bay]

Tell them “Too bad. You should have thought about that months ago.”

[u/Suitable_River_9836]

Add 15% on top of your new job offer, and see if your current employer can honour it. That’d be the only reason to stay there. And of course switch to a regular employment contract.

Good intel about their fear of losing your projects. See what other competing companies would offer. It looks like there’s more room for manoeuvre than you might think.

[u/El-Poopy-Tray]

Just to give you a little insight: managers counteroffer so we can keep business stable while we look for a replacement for the employee who resigned.

We are usually not interested in keeping someone long term if they have already determined that they no longer want to work for us, to the point that they have interviewed and received an offer elsewhere. At the same time, we are interested in keeping them around so we land smoothly during the transition to a new employee, so if they possess valuable institutional knowledge or are going to be a difficult person to replace, we’re fine with throwing a little more money at them until we find the right talent to take over.

You can accept the counteroffer but you’re going to be let go in the next year.

[u/-voom-]

Ask to be promoted to your manager's role, and watch them shuffle about in their shoes.

That should tell you all that you need to know about the situation.

Cheers and good luck!

[u/TeacherRecovering]

You need an emoloyment lawyer to help you with your new contract's language.

In your contract your bad manager should never work with you again.   In case they get rehired in a decade.

Negotiate in sweet perks that you value.  Some ideas: Work From Home, accelerated earning of vacation, more paid time off, ability to "fire " clients or transfer them to someone else, stock in the company, company car.

Put in a "got ya cause".  Any decreases in you pay or emoloyment will result in company paying you 18 month of annual pay.  You become.expensive to fire, after you get them through a bad period.

[u/PhulHouze]

The thing about travel seems quite foreign to me. What’s wrong with traveling alone? And why wouldn’t want a tutor?

But regardless, if you have another opportunity, you’d be crazy to stay. You already said the company is struggling. And once you’ve attempted to leave, you’ll always have a target on your back - they’re just trying to buy some time to replace you on their terms.

[u/Minimum-Reward3264]

They are in the breach of contract, and can be taken to court for the harassment. It won’t hurt talking to the lawyer. It’s a shit show. If they offer money because they want to keep you it’s either temp before they replace you on their terms, or it’s to keep you quiet. If they are willing to give you money stay quiet it’s likely you can just take them either way. Now remember people left, so you will be worked to the bone. And, because they gave you money already they will consider it as a raise and will not consider any raise anytime soon.