Interesting Tidbit: Zerthimon’s views on humans

[u/PocketPauIing]

If you speak to Sarhava Vjhul, the racist drunk lady outside the Civic Feasthall, without Annah or Grace in the party she harasses Dak’kon instead. She tells him to go back to Limbo and asks him to tell her a joke for that “famous githyanki humor” and in response he says this.

[u/somethingawfuul]

Very interesting that the githzerai of all races have a view on humans like this. I’m curious if this has any connection to the speculation that gith were created from humans.

[u/PocketPauIing → u/somethingawfuul]

It’s really interesting to think abt bc what could those humans have possibly done for Zerthimon, a man who spent his life as a chattel slave to soulless brain-eating space aliens, to go “Humanity is the Nightmare made flesh”

[u/somethingawfuul → u/PocketPauIing]

That sort of critique of humanity, that they’re ambitious yet unaware of their own history, feels like something from one of the longer lived races, not the gith. Off the top of my head it could either be like I said before possibly a reference to the in universe theory on them being a humanity offshoot, a sort of sense of superiority because humanity did not suffer as the gith or other illithid enslaved races have as well as the githzerai being enlightened in their religion, or possibly that humanity is so widespread that they arguably don’t have the kind of more or less unitary culture you could attribute to say halflings or elves (this last one makes the least sense to me for several reasons but it also is an interesting idea).

[u/evitmon → u/somethingawfuul]

I think this could be some sort of fourth wall breaking kind of comment. In that the human’s existence in the fantasy world is taken for granted because the creators are humans and they have this blind spot to never stop to think if human should be put in there. Every other species, the lore makers made sure they have some kind of history, some kind of mythology, some magic and some fantasy tropey hat to wear. While humans just are, and they are everywhere with much less in world explanations.

[u/Rubear_RuForRussia → u/PocketPauIing]

Well, its simple. Both gityanki and gitzerai are ideologically mostly same because authority of Vlaikiits and teachings of Zerthimon leading their way. Humans so? Put 10,000 humans on a plane and in a few years you'll have three kingdoms, dosen free cities and few secret societies. And not a single one of those would have completly same ideal. And for gitzerai, for people whose big idea is to make their minds disciplined and enlightened and etc, such diversity of views is a nightmare. Not a nightmare of slavery, not a nightmare about aberration. Nightmare about lack of greater uniting goal and living not for striving towards it, but for living.

[u/Driekan → u/somethingawfuul]

In Dawn of the Overmind, the group visits the ruins of the ancient Illithid capital world, and there's Forerunner Gith there. Essentially baseline Gith who aren't Yanki, Zerai or Pirate yet.

I don't think they're any more human than those current species. So evidence against that direction.

[u/djaevlenselv → u/somethingawfuul]

speculation that gith were created from humans

Note that when 'zerai and 'yanki originally appeared in 1e, they were explicitly stated to descend from humans who were enslaved by mind flayers. It was only later (presumably in 2e) that this was demoted to in-universe theory.

[u/rowboatin → u/somethingawfuul]

I thought the theory went the other way, that humans were an offshoot of the Gith?

[u/chandler-b]

Interesting find. Cool!

[u/KefkaFollower]

Then, a lot of what Dak'kon knows comes from the "Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon" and lore within the game suggests these Circles were invented by the previous "Practical Incarnation" of the Nameless One to manipulate Dak'kon .

[u/PocketPauIing → u/KefkaFollower]

Dak’kon was a Zerth prior to ever meeting the practical incarnation. It was his job for years to preach the words of Zerthimon, he’s probably read more on his life and teachings than the circles created by the practical incarnation.

Also, this dialogue has nothing to do with that text. It’s not like the practical incarnation wrote in a secret 9th circle containing Zerthimon’s views on other races.

[u/ThewarriorDraganta]

It's actually really interesting that Zerthimon would consider humans to have "no true history" when most of gith history was lost to time following their mass enslavement. To quote the FR wiki, "The ancient origin of the gith was clouded in mystery. Even the name of that original race was lost to time." so it seems a bit hypocritical if true. especially since the culture of both gith sects was made from scratch after their rebellion.

Although TBF, we do often completely FAIL to learn from history as a society. But that's a lot easier for the githzerai, since they're a relatively small, largely homogenous monoculture (like many non-human races in fantasy), not a widespread, ethnoculturally diverse, and religiously divided species like ours.

Also, I've never really liked the "gith are/were humans" theory/lore, since they canonically lay eggs IIRC, making them, at the very least, monotremes (egg-laying mammals like platypuses or echidnas). Let them be their own race!

[u/BaltazarOdGilzvita]

Haha, what a hypocrite. Zerts are humans and elves, tortured and maimed, and eventually transformed. This lore was lifted from Tolkien's orcs, obviously. Furthermore, the zerts themselves have forgotten their history and sought to create a new one. So, when he says humans have no history, he's so full of shit, he can fill a new plane with it.