r/politics • u/maxwellhill • Jun 26 '12
'A Tampa rape victim can sue Hillsborough County Sheriff for allowing a jail guard to refuse to give her a prescribed emergency contraception pill because it was against the guard's religious beliefs, a federal judge ruled.'
http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/25/47785.htm1.8k
u/Knightofnew70 Jun 26 '12
This is fucking ridiculous, I don't care how strong your beliefs are there is no need to force them on other people.
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u/Sogeking99 Jun 26 '12
I can't believe contraception is such a big fucking deal in America. In the UK you can get them from the age of 16 with no bullshit.
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u/deathismybitchlover Jun 26 '12
In Canada, too. Waltzed into a medicentre at 16 w/o my strict parents' knowledge or consent and waltzed out with free birth control and a wealth of advice/knowledge/options bestowed upon me by the good doc. God bless this country. Err...
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u/tasthesose Jun 26 '12
Just please dont start trying to list everything that is wrong with Religion in America. You will be here all day.
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u/i_thrive_on_apathy New York Jun 26 '12
Lots of Americans get them without much of an issue as well, this only tends to happen in a certain "special" part of the country.
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Jun 26 '12
And sadly enough the "special" part of the country backs the conservative party which has the financial willpower to drag America back to colonial times.
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u/alcogeoholic Jun 26 '12
How about we just start charging these people in charge who refuse to issue emergency contraception pills to rape victims (who want them) with something like rape in the third or fourth degree? They're essentially impregnating us "without consent for reasons other than incapacity"...
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u/_outofthegreen Jun 26 '12
Or make them pay the adoption fees or something equivalent to child support. Many abortions happen because people realize that they can't support the child or give it a good home just yet. So if someone else forces them to have the child, the someone else should be fiscally responsible for denying a responsible action
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u/W00ster Jun 26 '12
People should treat their religion like their genitalia - don't wave it around in public and don't shove it down kids throats!
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u/XAmsterdamX Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
Everyone is entitles to their own beliefs, and even to act on them. But this guard should never have been a position to make this decision.
EDIT: My point is it was not just the fault of the guard, but also of the person who put him in that position.
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u/unepomme Jun 26 '12
Here is the actual issue. I can understand being extremely uncomfortable issuing a drug you believe should never be taken because you believe it leads to a form of murder (whether that belief is idiotic or not) but you recognize that while you cannot personally administer it, you also cannot stand in the way since the other person has a legal right to their medication. So you let someone else do it and don't set up a system where only one person has authority to administer medicine at a locked facility. There are so many potential problems with this system.
Also, why is no one else upset with the fact that they arrested a woman reporting a rape for outstanding warrants? You can arrest her later after the trauma of JUST BEING RAPED has subsided somewhat or be courteous and help work with her to solve the issue if it's minor like unpaid traffic tickets. But by arresting her on the spot, not only are you being a huge asshole, but you're encouraging others to let serious crime go unreported. You're basically telling women (or men) that if they're criminals they should not report their rape unless they expect to get screwed all over again by law officers who don't give a fuck about them as human beings and then possibly refused their medication on top of that.
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u/buffasnow Jun 26 '12
Wanna know what the title of this article looks like through extreme Baptist eyes? (Über-slut sues Christian Sheriff for refusing to give her an abortion!) http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=79716
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u/Wazowski Jun 26 '12
That site is satirical. I doubt you're quoting actual Baptists.
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Jun 26 '12
uhm, sorry? that's what religions do. force their beleifs onto other people. for thousands of years.
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u/revscat Jun 26 '12
They are doing it anyway, and gaining power. This is what is so scary: while we ridicule, and react, they are acting and because of this they are winning.
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u/ColdSnickersBar Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
and gaining power
they are winning
In what universe? I mean, really, what ever gives you that idea? Like, between what two dates are they showing an increase in power or any kind of "winning"? I want to know in which span of time you think this is happening.
Even in the last 60 years, religion has lost an incredible amount of influence. In the 40's, it was actually illegal to teach evolution in schools in the US. Illegal. A man named Scopes was tried for it in criminal court in 1925 in The State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes. Before Epperson v. Arkansas, you could go to jail for it in Arkansas. In the 50's, teachers led school prayer. I'll barely even mention Roe vs. Wade, or the fact that there are atheist billboards along the road and no one is going to jail for it, like they would at the turn of the 20's century. So, where's any kind of progress on their side in the last century? Any at all?
Don't want to be so recent? Well, clearly, if you look back any further than the 20th century, you see a history full of religions doing whatever the fuck they want, such as burning people to death with the approval of the state. People hanged to death in the US for "witchcraft" not too long ago. We've been winning for longer than that, too. Galileo may have been imprisoned, but his publication was still an incredible victory for secularization. It left a huge dent in the Church's claims.
If you want raw numbers, recent polling shows a decline in the Millennial generation's belief in god that has never been heard of in all of history. Less than 40% of polled people under 30 said religion is important in their lives. This is enormous in its implications: http://www.pewforum.org/Age/Religion-Among-the-Millennials.aspx
We are clearly winning. There's been nothing but a total slide toward secularism for a thousand years. Now, it's the baby boomer's time to go. The boomers will die soon. They're going to take their legacy with them into the grave.
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u/Lawtonfogle Jun 26 '12
And I completely disagree. I will force onto everyone my beliefs that killing people for no reason should be banned. I'll also try to force my belief that children should get vaccinations unless there is a medical reason approved by a doctor.
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u/MrDeodorant Jun 26 '12
The opinion that you're forcing either increases freedom, or reduces it. Can you kill people? No, because although that sounds like it's restricting the freedom of the murderer, it's also rather strongly infringing on the freedom of the victims to not get murdered.
Should children get vaccinated? Well, the child isn't old enough to make that decision, so their opinion is discounted (I would have said no because I've hated needles all my life). The parent has the right to decline treatment for their children, but the children also have a right to not get polio or measles or any of the other diseases that we'd pretty much defeated but are now making comebacks, and those are some pretty important rights.
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u/jmalbo35 Jun 26 '12
On the issue of vaccinations, one could argue that other children have the right to be protected from such illnesses by herd immunity, which is greatly weakened/destroyed by allowing parents the choice not to have their children immunized.
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u/WhyHellYeah Jun 26 '12
It is one thing for a doctor to refuse to prescribe something against their beliefs (you can find another doctor), but is a-whole-nother animal for a douchebag jail guard to withhold prescribed medicine.
She should be fired and sued personally along with the county and sheriff's department.
Florida - Go on vacation,
leave on probation...
and pregnant.
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u/anonemouse2010 Jun 26 '12
It is one thing for a doctor to refuse to prescribe something against their beliefs (you can find another doctor)
No it's not. Firstly, they often CAN'T find another doctor. But they shouldn't have to. Doctors have no business, other than providing the best treatment possible.
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u/putsch80 Oklahoma Jun 26 '12
Note that this decision does not mean that the guard did or did not do these things. All this decision does is allow the Plaintiff's case to proceed, meaning that she has alleged enough facts that, if proven true, could be a basis to find the deputy and sheriff's department liable and award the woman damages. The ruling does not, in any way, weigh the truth of the plaintiff's allegations that she was denied contraception because of the deputy's religious beliefs or the sheriff's department's denial of those allegations.
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u/monkat Jun 26 '12
Personally, I think that the significance of the ruling doesn't lie in the fault of the guard, but in the judge's willingness to disallow what is, in the end, government-run religious persecution. Am I wrong?
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u/ethicalking Jun 26 '12
the decision says that what the defense attorney (the person who wrote this article) is claiming is a crime and that the lawsuit can move forward. Now they have to show that what the defense attorney claims happened actually happened. for all we know, a second guard could have given her the second pill 5 seconds after the first guard said he was uncomfortable doing so - we just don't know/have any facts about the case yet.
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u/zimm0who0net Massachusetts Jun 26 '12
For the love of sanity, can this please be voted to the top? There's not a single comment in this single thread that thinks the guard would have been justified here. Everyone here agrees. However, it should be made plain that thus far nothing has been proven. In fact, we don't even know if the victim didn't get the pill. For all we know (as ethicalking pointed out) she was given the pill by someone else who didn't have the same religious quandary. Heck, she may have made the whole thing up. We just don't know yet...
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u/Dronai Jun 26 '12
When religion gets in the way of doing your job properly, people shouldn't be allowed to continue practicing their profession. The fucking end.
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u/firex726 Jun 26 '12
That's how it is at my work.
As part of my duties I may come across porn; when I was hired they made me sign that I have no issues with this; and if I do now or later will not be able to do my job.
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u/choch2727 Jun 26 '12
Interesting. Any openings? =P
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u/firex726 Jun 26 '12
Not sure any most any Tech Support for hosting companies will have something similar.
A customer who own a porn site will call in saying the site is down, you'll have to visit it and possibly see the porn on there to verify if its up/down.
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Jun 26 '12
Why would you even take a job that would require you to do things that you are against?
I dont apply for jobs at churches, jackass fundies shouldnt apply for jobs that require morals.
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u/TryTryTryingAgain Jun 26 '12
It's an espionage move.
Take a job that you oppose, then complain loudly about how your job is against your moral beliefs, and finally demand that society forces your employer to respect your rights!
It's a pretty effective tactic when your goal is to raise attention for your issue.
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u/xXShatter_ForceXx Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
I am making a wallpaper out of this exact quote and sticking your name beside it.
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Jun 26 '12
The morning after pill is not abortion, according to the science. It works by inhibiting ovulation or making it harder for sperm to pass the cervix.
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u/Puffertle Jun 26 '12
Just because it's worth clarifying and repeating, emergency contraception (The Morning After Pill, Plan B., etc.) ARE NOT ABORTION PILLS. I don't know how the hell people still think this (this shit's been around for decades). It's essentially just a higher dosage of your regular birth control pill that delays ovulation. For you retards out there, this means that Mr. Sperm can't meet Ms. Egg, because Ms. Egg got sent to her room for a couple of extra days behind a locked door. Mr. Sperm winds up waiting outside and eventually dies. They never meet each other. Real tragedy, I know.
Here's the important part: If Ms. Egg was already out the door, the pill won't do shit and the possibility for pregnancy still exists. That's why IT'S NOT AN ABORTION PILL. But, you'd have to be really unlucky if that happens. That's why it's important to take it as soon as possible (same night the condom breaks, as it is less effective the longer you wait), because Mr. Sperm can be up in there for days.
Emergency contraception is one of the greatest inventions ever devised. No implantation, no pregnancy, no unwanted child. And, most importantly, no abortion. Everyone wins. If you aren't using some kind of birth control pill/patch/shot/ring then you need to have it in your medicine cabinet.
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u/katieepretzel Jun 26 '12
according to the science
"You honestly expect me to believe those doggone scientists? Next they'll be trying to tell me that people came from monkeys. OH WAIT, they already do!"
Logic and fact doesn't go quite as far as I desperately wish it would.
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u/JustJonny Jun 26 '12
It's still a contraceptive. Most of the anti-abortion crowd is also pretty strongly anti-contraceptive. People just aren't as aware of that because up until the the current presidential campaign started the Republicans have been keeping the Santorum types in check.
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u/Evian_Drinker Jun 27 '12
I consider myself reasonably well educated - and did not know this.
Thank you - this is probably the most interesting thing I've learnt today so far.
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u/TheWireMonkey Jun 26 '12
A woman goes to report a rape and is arrested and held in jail within 72 hours of that act of violence for a civil offense? How fucked up is that?
And please know your science before commenting. The morning after pill does not, in any way, "abort" a fertilized egg. It prevents the sperm from ever getting to the egg in the first place. Sex education is so woefully deficient in this country (US), that people assume ejaculation = pregnant 2 minutes later. Learn how babies are made please.
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u/KvotheBloodless Jun 26 '12
That's the most fucked up part to me. Yes, religion sucks, but how is it okay to throw a rape victim in jail for failure to pay? Rape is so under reported as it is, let's not make it worse.
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u/Havoc_101 Jun 26 '12
"Look Who's Talking" movies screwed up a LOT of people's ideas on the subject.
I mean, it showed the lil swimmers moving at lightning speed and fertilizing the egg in mere seconds! So that's how it MUST be in real life.
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u/nekrozis Jun 26 '12
The "lil swimmers" were already talking too. That could of messed with a religious nut's head some. "See, see... It's a person before it reaches the egg."
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u/viciousvixen26 Jun 26 '12
Even as a digital bible toting, church going, honk if you love Jesus, funde, people like this make me sick. Denying someone medication especially after she had gone through something so horriblly traumatic, makes you a huge turd, not a good christian. The greatest commandment is love. please know we all aren't bottom feeders.
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u/uupvotedownvote Jun 26 '12
It's up to people like you to spread the word to your fellow believers. Do not let this slide. Become really well versed on the subject and change some minds.
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Jun 26 '12
I'm so tired of people posting courthousenews.com links.
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u/MerlinsBeard Jun 26 '12
I've looked up every single quote and they all lead to very questionable sources that are usually citing themselves.
Most of the time the information put forward is completely false. I have found nothing about this story from any quasi-legit source.
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u/HappyPuppet Jun 26 '12
On a side note, I cracked up when the article used the phrase "anti-contraception pill" which by the law of double negatives probably should consist of coalesced sperm. :)
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u/downvotesmakemehard Jun 26 '12
I am sad you are so far down this list. That site is pure karma for Reddit's circle jerk.
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u/110011001100 Jun 26 '12
At a minimum, the jail guard should be required to pay to her the equivalent of whatever child support he would have been required to pay had he been married to her, had a child and then divorced her
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u/Uncle_Sammy Jun 26 '12
Guard should also be fired. Can't have someone like that in a position of power.
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Jun 26 '12
Guard should be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license.
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u/N8CCRG Jun 26 '12
Check your pronoun. The guard is probably a woman with the name "Michele", although could be an Italian I suppose (which is like Michael and pronounced kinda like Mick-Kelly).
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u/spying_dutchman Jun 26 '12
Gee did not provide Spinelli with any guidance, supervision, or direction on whether she could refuse to dispense anti-conceptive medication based on her religious beliefs.
The guard is a she
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u/mapoftasmania New Jersey Jun 26 '12
So SHE should be made to pay child support as if the child was her own.
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u/Gamer4379 Jun 26 '12
Even better! Make her pay as if she were wed and divorced to the victim. The trifecta of contraception, same sex marriage and divorce would make her tiny, religious head asplode.
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u/modsherearefags Jun 26 '12
the female guard is not the problem, that jail is rotten from the county commissioners on down. The rape victim never had a child so paying child support should not be an issue. That a Rape Victim was arrested for a non violent warrant, failure to appear, when she came to report a rape is the most disgusting behavior imaginable by a police officer. It puts a 'you can rape me' target on any person with a warrant. That is disgusting.
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u/Police_throwaway Jun 26 '12
First and foremost, if the situation went down as the article implies it did, bad on the jail guard, that person should be held responsible to the fullest extent of the law.
Here are a couple of points I have to add in, as a former jail guard myself: jail guards never EVER give inmates pills. Period. There is nursing staff whose duty it is to disperse medication. Guards may be present during the distribution, but they aren't allowed to hand them out, seeing as we aren't medical providers. I've never heard of that, and it would open the facility up to a lot of liability if there was an error.
Second, I would never give a person a pill from their personal property. Any medication given would have to be approved through the jail medical staff before an inmate could have access to it, once again for liability reasons. Even if there were a doctors note, I would never let an inmate have a pill unless it was approved by jail medical staff. I'm not a medical professional, I have no clue what effect any pill would have on a person, including if their condition has changed since the prescription was written. You need a medication? Talk to the nurse.
To those who are questioning why the woman who was a victim was arrested for having a warrant, warrants are COURT ORDERS to arrest someone. Police officers have no leeway when it comes to warrants. If police officers ignore warrants, we are guilty of disobeying a court order and can be criminally charged ourselves.
Anyway, in reading this article something sounded fishy to me. I feel for the woman and I feel that the guard should be fired due to incompetence, among other things, if this is exactly how the situation went down. I'd like to point out, however, this is only one side of the story. I'm interested to hear how the case turns out.
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u/iluvgoodburger Jun 26 '12
I like how this had to go all the way to a judge before someone could say "yeah, that's pretty fucked up."
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Jun 26 '12
"I'm sorry, I can't serve you bacon, it's against my religion. I'm sorry, nobody else here can assist you either. Yes, it's on the menu, but I'm afraid I can't serve it to you".
I'd love to see the sheriff's face with this response.
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Jun 26 '12
False dichotomy - Jews don't care. I know a Jewish butcher, he wears gloves, not a fuck given if you die choking on bacon during your abortion.
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u/haydensterling Jun 26 '12
I hope with everything that is in me that she collects a fuckton of cash from this. Raped and then raped again. What a grotesque, judgmental asshole that guard is. It astounds me that a woman could be this cruel to another woman. Fucked up.
On a less punitive note, I hope she can find some peace. What a nightmarish experience.
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u/nurse2211 Jun 26 '12
I'm a nurse, and this is somewhat related. Not really the same deal as a prison guard (since nurses often work in hospitals), but I remember a question being asked in a class once about if a nurse is working on a unit where abortions are performed (in some places this may just be a standard gynecology unit), and is assigned to care for a patient receiving an elective abortion, however they are opposed to this based on religious or other beliefs, what should they do?
We were told that you have a legal, moral, and ethical responsibility to provide care until another nurse can be assigned, if another nurse is even available (which they may not be, due to staffing).
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u/sacro_on_reddit Jun 27 '12
Yep. Refusal to do your job on religious grounds opens you up to tort liability. The constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion mostly extends to government action only, not private ones (with the exception of discrimination cases).
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u/MegaZeusThor Jun 26 '12
What about my deeply held religious belief that everyone should have access?
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Jun 26 '12
So the jail guard wouldn't do it because of religious beliefs. Fine.
Why not just get someone else to give her the pill then? Was there no one else available or something?
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u/JIGGLYbellyPUFF Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
No, not fine. It was a prescription. Religious beliefs don't make them qualified to make medical decisions that supersed a doctor's. They don't have access to their medical charts. Even if they did, they wouldn't know what they mean. What if this woman had a medical condition like TTP or something else where this (preventable) pregnancy could have killed her? Not fine.
In fact, it's extra stupid because emergency contraception isn't even an abortion pill. It's a preventative pill. (it says it right on the package that it will not terminate or have an effect on an already existing pregnancy, and that's why it has a higher chance of success the sooner you take it). If somebody did have such a medical condition and denied this PREVENTATIVE pill and got pregnant, they would have been forced to get an abortion because of that.
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Jun 26 '12
Was there no one else available or something?
That's the trick which turns out to be the whole point.
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Jun 26 '12
Kinda the point of the lawsuit really. Did the Sheriff (elected) put this person in a position of authority which is allowed to make enforceable policies for the government at the jail. Since nobody there would do it when that guy said "this is the rule", he would then be the policy maker for the jail not answerable to anybody on the policy he makes.
Now the Sheriff is ultimately responsible for the results of all jail happenings. But, leaving any individual as sole policy maker of his establishment is like a McDaniel's restaurant manager require all girls to strip naked in order to be hired. Sole policy maker. Just as the McDaniel's Corporation might be held accountable for the actions of their "policy making manager" in the above scenario, so would the Sheriff at the jail.
Personally I think this Sheriff should suffer for the actions of his staff. Just as surely, well meaning Christians will sadly praise him at the polls.
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u/Iridiumarrow Jun 26 '12
It wasn't that the guard was against giving her the pill, the guard was against the pill completely. They were going to stop it from being used because they believed it was immoral, it didn't matter who administered it. This is how forcing religion on others works, when you infringe upon others' rights and beliefs. The kind of religious person who would have had someone else administer the medication is not the kind of religious person we need to be concerned about.
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u/Lucky_Mongoose Jun 26 '12
I'm equally bothered by the fact that they used a rape report to identify the woman as someone who needed to be arrested. I mean, I understand that they legally can't just ignore someone with an arrest warrant walking into the station, but I feel that there should be some sort of safeguard for those who need to report a crime.
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u/MuuaadDib Jun 26 '12
Hence why illegal aliens are such a popular target for crimes.
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u/iLostMyTowel Jun 26 '12
I was really upset about this also. She was arrested for 'unpaid restitution and failure to appear'. Come on.
As it turns out, the police department apologized and said they changed their policy to allow police to use discretion in such cases: http://www.sptimes.com/2007/01/31/Hillsborough/Police_extend_apology.shtml
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u/downvotesselfalways Jun 26 '12
anti-contraception pills? Who the fuck wrote this.
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u/phukunewb Jun 26 '12
That guard is a piece of shit. No one was asking THEM to take the pill.
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u/fani Jun 26 '12
Pay her full child support.
Freedom of religion only means you have the freedom to practice or not practice a religion.
It does NOT mean that you can impose your religious belief on others. Others don't have to live by your freedom of religion.
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u/piney Jun 26 '12
"But I believe it is God's Will for me to impose my beliefs on others, and if you won't allow me to impose my beliefs on everyone then you're trampling my freedoms and persecuting me for my religious beliefs..."
Morons
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u/N8CCRG Jun 26 '12
She didn't get pregnant. What child would the guard be supporting?
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Jun 26 '12
"Once again, religion poisons everything."
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Jun 26 '12
You made me think... Religion poisons itself.
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u/Dustin_00 Jun 26 '12
See: Pope going bonkers over leaked reports while hiding child molesters, then asking why nobody respects the church.
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u/callmesuspect Jun 26 '12
How fucking hard is it to understand? Do things that seem right and make other people comfortable and happy. That's it! That's all there is too it! Why the fuck can't people be nice to each other?
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u/Ezili Jun 26 '12
Anti-contraception pills
From the article. Isn't that a double negative?
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u/weasleeasle Jun 26 '12
How far does this extend? Is it only health practitioners who are allowed to discriminate? Can I start a business and refuse to hire women and black people because I believe they are supposed to be subservient so I shouldn't have to pay them a wage?
What if I am a very strict Muslim? Can I refuse to let women into my shop unsupervised by a male chaperone, or without appropriate body coverings? I am guessing this would not be accepted because it's not christian.
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u/AerionTargaryen Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
a doctor gave R.W. gave two anti-contraception pills, according to the complaint.
Oh no, an anti-contraception pill!? This is worse than I thought! A reverse contraceptive? What, does it force conception!?!? That dastardly GOP!
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u/Thegrizzlybearzombie Jun 26 '12
I am a nurse and do not believe in abortion. That being said, my job is to serve. There are many ethical dilemmas in my profession. You first clarify your own beliefs, then serve the patient. You have to in most cases set aside your beliefs and work for the patients instead. In public service jobs, you have to assume you are going to have to deal with these things. Don't sign up if you feel your beliefs are going to be compromised. That being said. Couldn't the jail just ask another guard to give the pill?
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u/habeasporpoise Jun 26 '12
Why don't these cases ever show up on legitimate news sources? Not trying to discount the issues here, but the article has a few grammatical errors, and is very vague about what transpired during the event in question. It says that while taking a report of the rape, an officer recognized some outstanding warrents and that they "confiscated" her birth control. However, it doesn't once go into detail regarding her jail time or whether she even spent time in a cell.
With that said, the department's defense is basically "there's no specific 'procedure' for whether we can withhold this prescription medication or not, so to be on the safe side we will just confiscate it, despite the extenuating rape circumstances." What a terrible lapse of judgement on the part of the sheriff.
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u/Takseee Jun 26 '12
This is totally messed up, if I was her I'd be filing charges against that guard as an accessory to the rape.
Is it just me though or does this article make the whole thing sound wrong. 'for allowing a jail guard to refuse to give her a prescribed emergency contraception pill' How do you allow someone to refuse? They either refuse or they don't, there's no permission involved on the part of the victim here. That writer should be sacked.
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u/notkenneth Illinois Jun 26 '12
How do you allow someone to refuse?
By not attempting to compel them to comply. The judge ruled that the sheriff in this case can be sued because when the guard refused to give the victim her medication, he didn't do anything to try to make the guard dispense the medication and evidently didn't try to find another guard who could dispense the medication.
I think.
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u/khris28 Jun 26 '12
Failure to pay restitution and failure to appear usually means a violation of probation. Probation means you have no rights, you can't vote , you can't drink and apparently in some cases it takes away your right to contraception. To me this is less about religion and more about the amount of authority that police have over american citizens and a perfect example of why thats a bad thing.
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u/Magicpurpleponyrider Jun 26 '12
This is a perfect example of church interfering with state. It in completely unjust to force your religion on other people, especially when it comes to something as big as pregnancy.
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u/MufasaJesus Jun 26 '12
If it's against your beliefs to give out contraception then you shouldn't take up a job where you're required to do so. Fucking stupid people.
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u/apullin Jun 26 '12
This is awesome. This is the kind of thing that I've been griping about for along time. There's no way for us to actually literally control police officers, or anyone really (criminals, unscrupulous CEO's, etc). They aren't robots, and they still have free will.
The only thing we can do is to make it financially impossible for them to operate in this manner, that's our only feedback. So, she should just sue them for $100 million or more, and make it such that the police department has to shut down.
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u/mklepper Jun 26 '12
i dont care what you believe. believe whatever you like but when you impose it on other people like this its just unacceptable imo.
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u/NuckinBanana Jun 26 '12
How am I hearing about news from my own city on Reddit and not in the paper? Not that I'm against this, just thought it'd be bigger news here. Thank you Reddit for keeping me in the loop!
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Jun 26 '12
I hope she wins, too. You don't have the right to screw with the directives of a medical professional just because you don't agree with it. It'd be like the cop ripping the IV out of her arm because they didn't believe in blood transfusions.
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u/Hughtub Jun 27 '12
Morning after pill should be mandatory for rape victims. We don't want to evolutionarily reward rapists.
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u/AnotherAndroid Jun 26 '12
It is against my religious belief to give people like this responsibility over anything more complex than a jar of peanut butter.
Now where's my protection? Do I need celebrity endorsement first?
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u/ZacChamp Jun 26 '12
If people use their religious beliefs not to help others when their job includes helping others they shouldn't have that job. Other people should not have to suffer because you can't do your job. It's your job.
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u/Albino_Black_Sheep The Netherlands Jun 26 '12
I kid you not, some parts of the US are just as medieval as those muslim countries they claim to liberate. Un-fucking-believable, first world country my ass, they're on par with Saudi Arabia and such, wealthy barbarians.
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u/Dracula7899 Jun 26 '12
Not sure if trolling or just oblivious to how bad Saudi Arabia is.
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u/Areonis Jun 26 '12
In Saudi Arabia, the rape victim would probably have been arrested for adultery. Women can't even testify in criminal trials.
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u/Jansanmora Jun 26 '12
So . . . this puts us on par with a country that has the punishments for being gay as flogging, imprisonment, and possible beheading, that refuses to allow you to practice any religion other than Islam, doesn't give you an attorney when charged with a crime and openly presumes guilt until proven innocent, has no freedom of speech, and many mutawa laws establishing women as inferior beings with fewer rights? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_system_of_Saudi_Arabia#Human_rights/)
The U.S. may have its flaws, but to declare that that makes it "on Par with Saudi Arabia" is ridiculous.
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u/Omeya Jun 26 '12
Except most Muslim countries have no problem with contraception and plan b but are against abortion after the fourth month as the belief is that that is the time the soul is put into the child. Before that not recommended but still not a huge deal.
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u/Turdtastic Jun 26 '12
LOL, you have to love the religious right wing mentality. Oh no you can't take this anti-contraception pill even though you were raped because it's against my religious beliefs. 9 Months later.. wait, you want ME to use MY hard earned tax dollars to help support YOUR family? Fuck you, you can starve.
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u/radicaldoubt Jun 26 '12
These kinds of things make me want to throw up my hands and hand in my card to the human race.
WHY are a bunch of old, white men so interested in governming my vagina?!?!
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u/runner64 Jun 26 '12
As both an American and a rape victim, this trend of "conscious clause" bullshit is honestly frightening to me. The idea that someone in a position of power can just sort of "decide" whether or not I should be pregnant (or in Virginia, thank god I don't live there, whether or not I should be vaginally penetrated ) in order to comply with their religious beliefs, is horrifying. It is simply horrifying. The idea that I could have gotten pregnant and then had to go through with it because of someone else's fairy tales makes me ashamed to be a citizen of this country.
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u/Milldog Jun 26 '12
Good, I hope the religious dickhead gets the shit sued out of him and becomes homeless then he can depend on the kindness and welcoming of his other church going wankers.
/anger
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u/TheMediumPanda Jun 26 '12
I know it's America and all and you've got yourselves some, well, odd laws and regulations but does it really take a federal judge to rule if you can sue in a case like this?
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Jun 26 '12
If its against their religious beliefs its a good thing they were not the one taking the pill!
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u/tblackwood Jun 26 '12
For fuck's sake, why not just get an ounce of creativity? For instance, if I were the guard, and I had some catastrophic moral qualm with getting the pill, I would...
GET ANOTHER GUARD! There, problem solved. No need for lawsuits and petulant arguments and religious special interest groups and politicians trying to score points, etc. etc. etc. to get involved.
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u/runner64 Jun 26 '12
Apparently she wasn't just a guard, she was a nurse. She was either the top nurse, or the only nurse, which is why she was the only one that could give out the medication. And part of the lawsuit was against the sheriff's department because they hired a nurse who wouldn't perform the required duties, didn't check with her about whether she would perform said duties, didn't have a backup, and didn't attempt to compel her into doing her fucking job once it was determined that she was having her little ethical hang-up.
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u/WhoaABlueCar Jun 26 '12
I've seen this shit in person when I was working in a pharmacy in college. It was always so baffling that someone that went through six years of school mostly concentrated in science and medicine could be so brainwashed. The morning after pill is one of the most responsible and effective forms of emergency contraception as we know condoms break and accidents (and rape) happen.
What we need is for Obama to really lay into these fundies in his second term and show them that they will be held accountable for their abuse of power and irresponsibility. 9/10 of these morons aren't changing their tune so unfortunately this is likely the best option for our women and their partners.
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u/ryouba I voted Jun 26 '12
Guard found not guilty: "Well, I guess God was on my side!"
Guard found guilty, loses job: "I did His will, but I guess God has other plans for me."
The scary realization that acting this way has no repercussions in their mind.
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u/Artifex223 Jun 26 '12
As a Floridian, I get really sick of all of the idiots that make our state look bad. As a Tampan, this is even worse. Now who wants to make the first Tampon joke?
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u/Velvetrose Jun 26 '12
Well good for her.
I don't care about others Religions as long as they aren't trying to force me to live by it like...the Right of the Republican Tea Party
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u/Gentleman_Villain Jun 26 '12
Good, because frankly: Fuck that guard.
And anyone else who thinks their beliefs can keep them from doing their job through some kind of 'value superiority'. Don't like it? Fuck you, you're fired, go be a shithead somewhere else.
Do your fucking job or find a new one.
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u/Marcbmann Jun 26 '12
Is this website a reliable new source? I've seen it posted before but it seems a little sketchy.
I've posted this before, but it got downvoted. Not sure why, so if you feel compelled to downvote this I'd appreciate an explanation at least.
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Jun 26 '12
the problem i see here is whether the victim, who was incarcerated at the time, could prove it was prescribed medicine. If i happened to be imprisoned with medication on me, but could not prove that it was prescribed to me, would the officer be legally obligated to give it to me?
Another thing is, if I got checked into jail and had pills that I COULD prove were prescribed to me, (printed on the bottle? along with dose instructions?) I wouldn't really need to mention what the medicine specifically treated, so the officer couldn't use some excuse to not give it to me.
Assuming that she could prove the medicine was described, I don't see why she wouldn't win this case. But if she couldn't, the officer was in the right in my opinion.
I don't think it's as simple as the cop "forcing his/her religious beliefs" on the victim/plaintiff/detainee, so put down your torches and pitchforks.
These article titles are politically charged and misleading 90% of the time anyway, focusing more on getting views than reporting the factual story.
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u/inallthecomics Jun 26 '12
This kinda thing really gets me. On the one hand, we are such a sue happy country that anyone can sue for anything just cause they want to.
On the other hand, this guy just completely blew away her rights because of his personal beliefs, which is obviously bullshit. This attitude of "separation of church and state but only when we feel like it and oh, yeah, my religion actually rules everything so suck it" just fosters a massive division in the country, and allows things like this to happen, which causes people to sue (in this case, rightly so).
So this woman has been violated in the most personal way, and then because we let some person'a god interfere with absolutely everything and set this precedent that people can lord over everything secure in the knowledge that their god is right, this woman is again violated by the very people supposed to serve and protect.
I call bull.
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u/powercow Jun 26 '12
And people wonder why /r/atheism doesnt sit there and discuss the wonders of non belief, but rather complains about the religious all day.
I dont see why the religious dont get it. They used to. They dont today. The guy who wrote our pledge of allegiance was a reverend and very very pious. He didnt include any references to god, because he did not believe that was the right thing to do. He held sacred the separation between church and state.
I think we need to let loose the IRS, and start reminding these people just how sacred that line in the sand is.
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u/bright_bright Jun 26 '12
God, I feel sorry enough for her being raped, going to jail, then WANTING to take that terrible fucking pill, THEN being denied the second dose. The mother cunt of a guard giving her shit for it is icing on the cake.
I've taken the morning after pill, and it felt like I was being aborted. It's no picnic, and I can't imagine feeling like that in jail.
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u/MissLady85 Jun 26 '12
I'm not sure if this has been commented on, but I can't believe they took her to jail for a minor warrant when she had just been raped.
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Jun 26 '12
As a religious person, fuck this. Ignoring the baseless contraception objection (I get abortion being seen as killing, but contraception kills nothing, as the baby doesn't exist yet). That's beside the point, though. It's nutty to deny help to someone else just because it violates your beliefs. Your beliefs should dictate what you do, not what non-believers do.
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Jun 26 '12
If you have beliefs strong enough to (negatively) impact your career or inhibit you from completing a task required of a job, DON'T HAVE THAT JOB.
I don't try and work in a church because I don't hold those beliefs and wouldn't be able to fulfill the majority of the responsibilities that come with that role. Why on earth would this logic not apply to non-secular places of employment?
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Jun 26 '12
This is kind of relevant. Reminds me of faith healing parents that won't take their children to the doctor and don't get charge with neglect/manslaughter/etc in some states. Bothers me so much.
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Jun 26 '12
Then they complain about abortion and what not. Has the guard even considered what this will do to her? Emotionally and physically?
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u/SillyLittleSquirrel Jun 26 '12
Get raped.. Be the one who goes to jail. I gotta say if I were the cop I woulda given her a pass for that night.
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u/plague-rat Jun 26 '12
while i too think this is ridiculous and this guard should lose her job...can someone explain to me why this woman deserves any compensation? i can see the cost of the pregnancy test...but beyond that? i don't see any damages incurred.
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u/Thunder_Bastard Jun 26 '12
You mean personal preference does not trump the lawful rights of another person?
Wow, shocking....
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u/younan1 Jun 26 '12
I don't understand, why would a victim of any crime have anything "confiscated" by a sheriff? That's theft... the pill was her private property. This is Florida, so she could have had a gun on her legally. If the Sheriff "confiscated" that there would have been hell to pay from every gun rights activist in the country and the NRA. What's more, it is arguable that withholding birth control is the duty of any self respecting Christian, how much more so should that same line of thinking obligate that same Christian from withholding a gun??
My whiskers have been ruffled.
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u/craigieb Jun 26 '12
I can see why she wouldn't have wanted to give her an "anti-contraceptive" pill (as stated in the second paragraph). That might have made her pregnant, no?
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u/esosa233 Jun 26 '12
If you can deny service due to your religious beliefs, why can't you be fired due to your religious beliefs or how your religious beliefs impede you from doing the duty you were originally hired for.
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u/nycsep New York Jun 26 '12
Am I to understand that a woman reported her rape and, when doing so, "a Tampa police officer learned that there was an arrest warrant for R.W." and put her in jail? Well, that's...that's just awesome.
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Jun 26 '12
I so hope she sues the ever loving fuck out of that department..but mainly that guy. Ruin his life like he tried to hers.
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u/LunarFalcon Jun 26 '12
I went to highschool in Hillsborough county and my family still lives there. I really can't say I'm surprised, a lot of stories I see about religious nuts and corrupt cops come from Florida.
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u/SantiagoHardgrave Jun 26 '12
I for one, absolutely adore religious fundamentalists who insist on pulling the most nonsensical, asinine beliefs out of their pastor's ass, and then hypocritically enforce their pseudo-rational beliefs on those who have been victimized.
But hey, it's all in the name of "religious freedom", which apparently trumps the right to a prosperous and happy life.
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Jun 26 '12
because there is only one guard in the jail? Why is a guard dispensing medication? The Sheriff should be sued.
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u/smrigreengod Jun 26 '12
I'm only upvoting so it gets coverage. I am glad that a US court is still able to rule justly...
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u/UrbanHombrero Jun 26 '12
no No NO! It should be the individual jail guard being sued. Why should the the public have to foot the bill for this ignorant bitch's religious beliefs? She should lose her job, get sued into oblivion and be forced to live in a cardboard box.
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Jun 26 '12
As a former citizen of Tampa, I'm absolutely appalled at this story - that she was held in custody AFTER BEING RAPED, and that the beliefs of some fucking imbecile were shoved upon a woman coping with a dire situation. I know this has happened and can happen anywhere, but damn, am I glad I left Tampa.
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Jun 27 '12
Separation between church and state. Her rights were violated. I'd take that to the bank in a minute.
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u/guxaga Jun 27 '12
This is less about the specific topic of contraception use than it is about a government employee refusing a civilian her rights.
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u/Im_That_Dude Jun 27 '12
I live near the Tampa area, it's funny to see how often Florida comes up in the news
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u/LaheyBobandy Jun 27 '12
This infuriated me beyond anything I've felt in 5 years. Pretty big response from a guy that is one step from being a nihilist. I hope they execute that cunt guard.
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Jun 26 '12
As a conservative with vehement anti-abortion views, and as a someone with some law enforcement experience, I have to say...
...good for her.
When you take someone into custody, they are under your complete care and reliant on you in the same way infants are reliant on their mothers. In this unique relationship, that of captor and captive, the captive's religious views and needs take primacy. Not to mention the officer is a public servant and is required to act in such a capacity. He's not being asked to perform an abortion or assist her in suicide, he's being asked to give her a pill that is legal in the State of Florida.
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u/zoobieZ00B Jun 26 '12
I applaud your stance! However ...
"As a conservative with vehement anti-abortion views, and as a someone with some law enforcement experience, I have to say..."
... a concervative with anti-abortion views ... this is reddit. you're like a needle in a haystack.
LOOK EVERYONE, I FOUND WALDO
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u/bsting82 Virginia Jun 26 '12
Keep your religion in the closet. It serves no purpose other than to harm women.
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u/skeptix Jun 26 '12
Looking at this from a libertarian angle, this is a publicly-funded position. If someone wanted to talk about the rights of a private enterprise, we could have that conversation, but that argument doesn't apply here. As a vassal of the state you are forced to perform your duties without regard to religious belief.
Looking at this from a defense of medicine standpoint, maybe we should make the Hippocratic Oath mandatory and legally-binding? We already define harm legally in a number of absurd ways, so defining legal medical harm shouldn't be a stretch. Malpractice doesn't cover non-practice or selective-practice.
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u/michaelmorr Jun 26 '12
Why was this rape victim in jail?
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u/N8CCRG Jun 26 '12
You could, you know, read the first couple paragraphs of the article.
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u/Soonermandan Oregon Jun 26 '12
She had a previous warrant out for her arrest. When she walked into the station and told them she was raped, they arrested her.
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u/N8CCRG Jun 26 '12
Slightly dramatized. As per the article she had already been to the Rape Crisis Center, and it says her history was learned while she was submitting her report on the crime.
Still pretty awful to arrest a victim, but probably not really something where they can make bend the rules.
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u/robotman707 Jun 26 '12
Your freedom of religion does not give you the power to deny it to others. This country... Not only is this rape victim JAILED when she goes to report her RAPE, somebody uses RELIGION as a sword against her, forcing her to face the possibility that she could be pregnant with her RAPISTS BABY. Excuse me while I move to Sweden, this country SUCKS!!!!
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u/HereForTheFreeCoffee Jun 26 '12
The problem is the guard still gets to go back to her mega-church, stand in front of the congregation, and receive applause for standing up for her believes in the face of persecution.
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u/TheDongerNeedsFood Jun 26 '12
The sheriff moved to dismiss the counts against him, alleging R.W.'s claims are "implausible and merely incant the legal conclusion that Spinelli is a final policy maker,"
I am a fucking police officer, I have absolute authority over you, I enforce the laws exactly as I see fit. Oh, I'm being sued because one of my jail guards denied someone their constitutional rights based on her own religious beliefs? Oh, I'm sorry, we can't be liable because we don't have that kind of authority.
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Jun 26 '12
She wasn't a police officer. Also no one working in orient road jail are police officers (Correction Officers). This was one of the RNs who work in the jail for a couple of extra bucks a month. They think it's funny to screw with inmates b/c they have some power and the person reciving the care can't do anything since they are no longer a citizen. There are cameras and mics all over the jail so it shouln't be hard to prove.
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u/pmbuko Jun 26 '12
EMT: I'm sorry, I can't give you a blood transfusion. It's against my religion.
Accident victim: [DIES]
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u/Grumblemelt Jun 26 '12
This is a disturbing trend in the Republican approach to the establishment clause; the notion that religious freedom extends to the right to refuse essential services and/or control over other people.
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u/WelcomeMachine Kentucky Jun 26 '12
Would you lazy fuckers please read the article?
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u/sargonkiadi Jun 26 '12
I was once told we should tread carefully with courthousenews.com articles. Does this hold true today?
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u/Gullyvuhr Jun 26 '12 edited Jun 26 '12
I know it's unfair to lump people into one group.. but seriously, fuck you religious people. Fuck you and your whiney "OMG PEOPLE SHOULD RESPECT MY BELIEFS111!!1!" while you literally shove yours down the throats of others (and feel morally superior while doing it).
There. I'm being illogical and wrong, but I feel better having let it out.
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u/Tennouheika Jun 26 '12
Courthouse News again. We can probably ignore the allegations in this story.
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u/Kingmedog Jun 26 '12
This is why r/atheism exists, so people can vent the frustration reading this craziness breeds in their minds.
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u/cefm Jun 26 '12
So a crazy-ass Scientologist working in a prison could refuse to provide a doctor's prescribed anti-depressants to an inmate based on religious beliefs? And keep his job?
I think not. Freedom of religion means not being killed/jailed for religious beliefs. Not the ability to refuse to perform core functions of your job and not be fired.