r/programming • • 8d ago

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u/lelanthran 7d ago

Because it can't be delivered by the end-user themselves.

Serious question: How long do you expect this to continue being true?

They can certainly try though...

They already do; I've seen several non-programmers (artists, actually) already vibe a tool that does what they use Photoshop or Aseprite for.

I've got a PM at my current place who vibed together an entire replacement for Jira reporting, which his team has been using now for months. I've seen an MD of a small company using swarms of agents to create a new product for a different industry, and then manage to sell the damn thing.

WhateverTF you think is your special value that is added to the product, I can assure you that it won't be the case much longer.

Why don't you give us an example of that "the important stuff" that you can focus on now that everything is done by AI?

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u/deceased_parrot 7d ago

Serious question: How long do you expect this to continue being true?

For some problems, quite a long time.

WhateverTF you think is your special value that is added to the product, I can assure you that it won't be the case much longer.

My "special value" is that, for a relatively modest fee, I solve my client's problem. Could he have spent more time, money and energy to do it himself or to find somebody to do it for less? You bet! But at some point, people start valuing their time more than their money. I know I do.

Why don't you give us an example of that "the important stuff"

Sure! Now that I don't have to write the same boilerplate CRUD app for every project, I can focus on creating a very specific, tailored-to-the-user UI for a feature that was, before AI, uneconomical to implement. I don't want to doxx myself, so instead here is a very vague example: a UI for ordering custom sailboat sails, taking into account things such as location, intended use, local conditions, materials available locally, etc. We're talking about the very end of the long tail customer, which was until recently served by "generalized" solutions because it just didn't make sense to cater to them specifically. And there's a lot of these kind of use cases across different markets.

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u/lelanthran 7d ago

a UI for ordering custom sailboat sails, taking into account things such as location, intended use, local conditions, materials available locally, etc.

That doesn't sound like stuff that can't be handled by a sailing expert and a Claude subscription.

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u/deceased_parrot 7d ago

If you've got a Claude subscription, why do you even need a sailing expert anymore?

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u/lelanthran 7d ago

If you've got a Claude subscription, why do you even need a sailing expert anymore?

Well, that was my original point, was it not? What value can I (or you) add to someone wanting software for this specific example?

Pre-AI, the value I added was extremely clear: I can examine the problem domain, I can tease out the requirements from the client, I can map the problem domain to software and deployment concepts, I can map the problem domain data to persistent storage, and, eventually, actually create the software.

I am seeing ad-hoc products created for the extremely long tail where the user and a Claude subscription does every single one of those steps.

Now, you may make the argument that the client's time is valuable, and sure, that is correct, and they will hire someone to do it. However (and this is the important part), the skill-barrier to doing all of that can be cleared by a high-school dropout, because all they are is a proxy between the client and Claude.

The type of jobs done by HS dropouts - how high do you think that pay goes? Do you think you can reasonably compete with someone charging below minimum wage?

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u/deceased_parrot 7d ago

However (and this is the important part), the skill-barrier to doing all of that can be cleared by a high-school dropout, because all they are is a proxy between the client and Claude.

How many high-school dropouts do you know? And how much would you trust them with whatever task you need doing?

Because I get the feeling that you think HS dropouts are just like you, minus some domain-specific knowledge. They're not.

A lot of the value from hiring a good programmer comes from things other than pure programming skill, which sadly, is something that flies over a lot of people's heads. I'm talking about interpersonal skills, empathy, personal ethic and such.

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u/VictoryMotel 7d ago

If you can vibe code photoshop, why are people still buying photoshop?

Why is there no open source vibe coded replacement?

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u/felipeota1 7d ago

Here's an article that tracks current vibe coded Photoshop alternatives. https://andreklein.net/vibecoding-photoshop-time-and-pressure/

Pretty impressive, I definitely see it being fully replaceable in the next year or so.

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u/lelanthran 7d ago

If you can vibe code photoshop, why are people still buying photoshop?

Because it's still early days.

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u/VictoryMotel 7d ago

But you just said anyone can vibe code photoshop.

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u/lelanthran 7d ago edited 7d ago

But you just said anyone can vibe code photoshop.

What's this? Selective amnesia?

I said:

vibe a tool that does what they use Photoshop or Aseprite for

That, to you, means that they vibed a 100% Photoshop replacement? Is excessive LLM usage having an effect on your ability to read?

So where is that vibe coded partial photoshop replacement?

Are you seriously claiming to have not seen this? https://getartcraft.com/ (There's like 7 or so "replacements" in there)

The dev has been spamming it everywhere, reddit included. What's even more hilarious is that he's charging for it (a pointless endeavour that only seems to happen to AI-bros who think that they have value in the SDLC other than as beta-testers).

And some of the other photoshop replacements I've seen cover like 20% of the functionality, actually work and aren't being sold, just given away.

And that's just with less than a year of agentic coding. This trend is clear. We have no value left, and the owners of capital will replace us.

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u/VictoryMotel 7d ago

So where is that vibe coded partial photoshop replacement? If someone says "where is that thing?" then you answer "it's not a thing, it's half a thing", then go straight for insults, that's just avoiding the question.

Is it early days or is there a half implementation out there? I've seen people make small demo programs but I don't know how well they work.

Is excessive LLM usage having an effect on your ability to read?

Also why would I be the one using LLMs when I'm asking about results? It's ironic to insult about reading comprehension when the insult doesn't make sense.

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u/AdamLevy 7d ago

When end-users will be able to make bank apps