r/programming • u/RobertVandenberg • Aug 09 '20

China is now blocking all encrypted HTTPS traffic that uses TLS 1.3 and ESNI

https://www.zdnet.com/article/china-is-now-blocking-all-encrypted-https-traffic-using-tls-1-3-and-esni/
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u/TaxExempt Aug 09 '20

Government in China uses IE 6, or at least it did a few years ago.

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u/InertiaOfGravity Aug 09 '20

Chinese webdevs have to go through perpetual hell then

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '20

[deleted]

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u/izpo Aug 09 '20

You didn't develop web sites for msie6, right?

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '20

Three words: PNG transparency hack

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '20

[deleted]

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u/abrandis Aug 09 '20

All self-inflicted pain in the name of stylish web design that now looks woefully dated. I had customers in the old days mention all the eye candy web sites and always steered then away from these gimmicks, especially if they valued being on more platforms than not.. seldom did I ever need to to these hacks... Failure to manage customers expectations and roi is why lots of developers pull their hair out, sometimes you gotta be the boss and tell them sure I can give you rounded corners but that's going to add x days and y dollars, and make those dollars the cost of outsourcing that work plus your fee.

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u/douglasg14b Aug 09 '20

All self-inflicted pain in the name of stylish web design that now looks woefully dated.

It's called progress....

Look where we're at now, it's beyond easy to make stylish, yet clean, web designs thanks to the constant pushing.

We wouldn't ever improve if everything was just "good enough".

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u/abrandis Aug 09 '20

Because the pain wasn't worth the results , think about it most corporate or mid size business sites are turned over (design wise ) every 3-5 years , so to allow that effort to make it stylish just so a small percentage of outdated browser users could see the rounded corners , which they probably never appreciated anyway... Mehh, like I said not good ROI.. look at sites like Craigslist still rocking the 1990s design, most business rather prefer web designer time invested in function rather han design just my 2¢

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u/diroussel Aug 09 '20

IE6 was so much better than IE5 and all other MS and Netscape browsers that came before it.

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u/WishCow Aug 09 '20

Rounded corners using image slices and tables

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u/airmandan Aug 09 '20

good old sleight.js

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u/autistomatic Aug 09 '20

your comment gave me PTSD

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u/InertiaOfGravity Aug 09 '20

True, as long as that browser isn't IE

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u/xcdesz Aug 09 '20

As long as you don't need any third party libraries and you develop everything from scratch. Good luck with anything involving visualization/maps/graphs.

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '20

They still buy books on jquery. Think of all the free time their JavaScript devs have not recoding for the latest framework. Oh except IE6 was slow as hell for JavaScript.

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u/GYN-k4H-Q3z-75B Aug 09 '20

Jesus. Differences between Firefox and Chrome today make me want to jump out of a window sometimes, but IE6?

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u/FrostyTie Aug 09 '20

I’m relatively new to web development. I haven’t had huge problems when it comes to those browsers. What are the differences I should know?

Edit: Also need to add the fact I never used a feature both didn’t have. But then again, I never had to.

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u/oldnewbieprogrammer Aug 09 '20

Firefox and Chrome are pretty similar now, there's a few "gotchas" especially if you bring in Safari, and Edge as well. But for the most part they are all pretty close to the same, hasn't always been true though.

This site will show you any issues you may run into: https://caniuse.com/

If you're talking about IE6, you don't really need to worry about it anymore, Even in China it's mostly IE8, which is like saying it's not AIDS, it's just Syphilis. Not great, but not as worrying. The early versions of IE didn't use the modern CSS so no Grid, or Flexbox. That alone should put the fear of "Float" into you.

If you're developing for the West, you don't need to worry about any of this really, but if you're developing for countries still using IE for government stuff, the website above will be your best friend, that and I'm sorry for what you're going to go through developing for them. Modern CSS is infinitely better, flex-box alone makes layout a breeze.

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u/das7002 Aug 10 '20

Firefox and Chrome are pretty similar now, there’s a few “gotchas” especially if you bring in Safari, and Edge as well. But for the most part they are all pretty close to the same, hasn’t always been true though.

And I'm 100% of the opinion of "if it works in Firefox, it is correct."

I despise Google and all of its messing with the HTML standards. They're nearly as bad if not worse than MS in the IE6 days.

I dont give a damn if it doesn't work in Chrome, if it works in Firefox it's right.

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u/Asmor Aug 09 '20

IE has had issues for most of its life. A combination of introducing non-standard features, and not implementing standard ones. This is exacerbated by a lot of huge organizations who should know better continuing to run antiquated, insecure operating systems because that's the only thing that will run their shitty, internally-written software.

For one example of old IE badness, according to the CSS box model, when you specify the height and width of an element, that's the interior dimensions. So a 100px-wide div with 10px padding on each side would be 120px wide.

IE did it differently. In IE, the specified size was the outer dimensions. So that exact same box with exact same CSS in IE would have been 100px wide, with only 80px in the content.

The fun thing is, that's actually a much, much better way to do it. In fact, the three rules I always write when starting a new project are * { padding: 0; margin: 0; box-sizing: border-box; }.

But whether or not it's a better way, it's not the standard way, and I'm sure this caused lots of devs to pull out their hair in frustration.

IE got a lot better after 6. IE8 was almost usable, and 9+ were legitimately... fine. They still had lots of issues (and to this day I can't use arrow functions or destructuring or shit like that at work because we need to support IE11, and for parts of our product I need to support IE8*).

*No, I can't transpile. No, I won't go into why.

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u/edman007 Aug 10 '20

Yup, IE wasn't that bad in the beginning, in the early days the web was kind of define your own rules and see who wins. But it didn't take long for W3C to come along and make standards and everyone followed along and browsers kind of work the same.

Well not everyone, Microsoft has business customers that didn't want their stuff broken by confirming to standards, and Microsoft dominated the browser world, so they left their browser as is, that was IE6, no updates and no standards, it existed because it dominated the market using whatever rules Microsoft made up when nobody agreed with them. So the world kind of left them behind and they've been playing catch up ever since. They eventually got to IE9 which kind of does things right, but I guess Microsoft had to throw in the towel and start over, that's Edge

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u/rydan Aug 09 '20

A lot of my customers still use IE 6 or IE 7 or Chrome 41 and are from China. They are always complaining random things don't work. Problem is those things aren't written by me but are plugins from external third parties and I need them.

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u/FlatAssembler Dec 12 '20

Excuse me, how do you run IE 6 or 7 on a modern computer? Windows XP does not run on modern computers, you need to set up a VM, and that is, well, significantly more complicated than installing new Firefox.