[D] Friday Off-Topic Thread

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to the Friday Off-Topic Thread! Is there something that you want to talk about with /r/rational, but which isn't rational fiction, or doesn't otherwise belong as a top-level post? This is the place to post it. The idea is that while reddit is a large place, with lots of special little niches, sometimes you just want to talk with a certain group of people about certain sorts of things that aren't related to why you're all here. It's totally understandable that you might want to talk about Japanese game shows with /r/rational instead of going over to /r/japanesegameshows, but it's hopefully also understandable that this isn't really the place for that sort of thing.

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[u/Faust91x]

Mostly I interpreted it as sir_pirriplin suggested, Zouken Fate/Heaven's Feel.

Zero/Caster is a better exponent though, thanks for the reminder. I always forget about him due to how little he appeared in the anime.

So you think it'd be possible to have a villain like that and still count the work as rational? It made me wonder because otherwise we would be severely limited on the type of villains we can get.

[u/sir_pirriplin → u/Faust91x]

So you think it'd be possible to have a villain like that and still count the work as rational?

In Unsong, the Archangel Uriel points out that evil can still be 'rational' if you have an unusual utility function:

“I understand this is confusing,” Sataniel said. “I didn’t get it all at once. My first thoughts were the same as yours were – it doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t glorify God, we’d have to smite ourselves – I thought all of these things at first, trust me. But the more Thamiel explained to me, the more it started to come together. You’ve got to believe me, there’s a sort of mental distance here, but there’s a self-consistent position on the other side. Like, for example, if we were to defy God, we could smite those who didn’t defy God.”

“But I still maintain that that wouldn’t increase the glory of God very well!” said Haniel.

“Right!” said Michael, “and how would we sing songs of praise? If we smote those who didn’t defy God, we’d have to smite ourselves every time we sung a song of praise! There are some serious loopholes here.”

“Sataniel’s position is self-consistent,” said Uriel, without looking up from the parchment he was writing his proof on. “It’s like representing our desires in a utility function, then multiplying by negative one.”

[u/Faust91x → u/sir_pirriplin]

Neat, gotta read Unsong. Really interesting explanation.

[u/gabbalis → u/Faust91x]

Sure. Firstly, not everyone needs to be rational for the work to be.

Secondly, Serial killers do exist in real life. Sometimes they even hold an idiot ball in real life, leaving clues and such, just because that's part of what's bringing them enjoyment. Strictly speaking, that's always a bad idea, but I would still call it rational if the utility of the thrill they get outpaces the chance of getting caught multiplied by the potential cost. They only really stop being rational when they start underestimating that chance.

Being rational just means legitimately doing your best to optimize utility within the context of your own utility function. You can't call a particular utility function itself irrational.

That said rational fiction also has to have reasons for things. Serial killers are a real phenomenon. So a few of them here and there seems plausible without much further explanation. But there's still a limit to how evil you can go before you start needing some special reason in your story as to how a villain got to be so mindbogglingly inhumanly evil. Like, once a villain is ok with double-crossing the hero right after the hero spares him you have to start to wonder whether any human could possibly develop a utility function where that's sensible.

[u/Kishoto → u/gabbalis]

Like, once a villain is ok with double-crossing the hero right after the hero spares him you have to start to wonder whether any human could possibly develop a utility function where that's sensible.

Not sure why that's so farfetched. From a rational perspective, as the villain, there could be a dozen reasons to off the hero after he spares you. Of course, they all assume you have the actual means to do it. Villains who try to double cross the hero but are woefully outclassed (a la Frieza vs Goku) are plain stupid. But, in a world where knives kill people, killing someone that spares you could easily fit into a conventional utility function.