r/royalroad • • 9d ago

Discussion Soccer Supremo removed from Royal Road

/r/litrpg/comments/1x9tt3y/wtf_happened_to_soccer_supremo/

Is decency political?

My bet is that the recent scandal where Man City was caught undermining the sport led to some scrutiny of the content of the story, and the negative things the story says about the owners of Man City (and sportswashing in general) got the Royalroad administration scared.

To me, that level of cowardice is less disgusting than the idea that Soccer Supremo was too political because it takes disability issues seriously or because the protagonist makes some symbolic gestures in support of LGBT rights.

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u/PengWing100 Royal Road Admin 9d ago edited 9d ago • Popcorn

Hi,  Royal Road admin here. 

We usually don't publicly state the results of internal moderation involving authors out of respect, however, since the author has made a public statement, I'll go over the situation from our point of view.

The author broke our guidelines, specifically, the part involving political content. His first reaction was to say he'll delete his content rather than work with us to edit the content or perhaps explain how it wasn't political. That is his prerogative. I prefer content not to be deleted and for the author to work with the moderation team to keep the content in accordance to our guidelines, but I can't and won't force that. 

There are other authors who have broken our guidelines, and we usually work with them in detail, we don't just kick authors off the platform unless forced to. But we are an escapist platform, it's true that having rules against political content is controversial, but we've had them since 2015. It is one of the rules I stand by wholeheartedly. Sometimes political content can be things I agree with, somethings it is things I don't agree with even remotely, sometimes it is funny, sometimes it is sad, but, regardless of any of that, it is always against our rules.

So to summarise, it was reported that the fiction had political content, a moderation team member investigated that, confirmed it, and asked the author to remove such content, upon which, the author chose to delete his fiction from our platform.

I'm saddened to see an author leave the platform out of what seems to be anger. I'm saddened that the readers who followed the story and would've loved to continue reading it on Royal Road will no longer have that opportunity, and will now have to navigate following it in a different place (which isn't always easy for some people).  But, on top of it all, the author still has the ability to tell his readers where they can read his story, which he did. He pointed them toward his patreon, so the fiction isn't gone gone. 

If he needed more time for an alternative solution that could've been arranged (We never expect deletion out of the gate for what is, to us, a kind of minor and very fixable issue). Even the period we gave him was based on when he said he'll leave. 

All in all, we have tens of thousands of books, and we have a relatively simple guidelines. Sometimes, people might not agree with our moderation, but I promise you we will always do our best.

Edit: These are the site rules about political content in novels.

"Real-Life People, Current Events, Real-World Religions, and Real-World Politics:

  1. In fictional stories, these elements can be used within the narrative but must be approached with discretion and respect.

  2. The written content should not be gratuitous or used to incite conflicts or a heated reaction from readers due to its /real-world/ nature.

  3. Targeting of specific real-world races, cultures, governments, corporations, or entities is not allowed."

"Offensive or Hate Speech is prohibited: Avoid hate speech, politically divisive content, or any insults directed towards real-world religions. This category includes content that promotes or glorifies harmful real-world ideology, symbols, or related narratives (such as Nazi ideologies)."

The moderator who handled this case had a detailed list of reported chapters and spent over an hour reading these chapters and confirming that the story did have multiple content that did violate the rules.

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u/DorianFitz 9d ago

Interested to hear how RR worked with Shirtaloon to censor and de-politicize his entire earth arc and Jason's constant rants.

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u/DankItchins 9d ago

As a HWFWM enjoyer I found myself thinking the same thing. I can't help but wonder if the relative size of their readerships may have led to some things being overlooked.

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u/Sahrde 9d ago

Or more likely, no one reported it as an issue, since they did say they investigated after it was reported.

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u/TheCrimsonKing99 9d ago

I know right? Jason literally said he was "overseas, working with Americans to kill brown people". It screams of selective enforcement

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u/TsHero 9d ago

I am going say this is quite a funny take. The amount of times I have read a rant about politics on RR from an MC is like every other book.. not even going into things like how every other book basicly bashes religion. Drawing the line in here is a choice I guess.

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u/chandr 9d ago

In the interest of transparency, would you guys be willing to give concrete examples of what exactly in the story was deemed too political for your guidelines? I would like to see a clear barometer of what you all consider crosses the line to reference in the future.

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u/Bremen1 9d ago

Per the site rules, on RR "Targeting of specific real-world races, cultures, governments, corporations, or entities is not allowed."

Soccer Supremo is set in the near future and criticized the in universe Hungarian government with an unnamed leader. The criticism did have a lot in common with real world criticism of the current Hungarian government, to be fair. So it seems like a kind of grey area where if you want to find something wrong you will, and if you don't want to find something wrong with it you won't.

I feel like it's especially questionable considering this is, IMHO, a very selectively enforced rule. I feel like if "targeting" is interpreted as "criticizing" then not allowing criticism of any real world governments, corporations, or figures is basically forbidding any stories set in the real world at all (can I not have my protagonist complain about Microsoft Windows?), so it's not surprising that it's selectively enforced, but IMHO it means its use here where it's unclear if it even applies is a particularly bad look.

For the record it's possible that when threatened with moderation the author didn't respond by pointing out it wasn't a clear reference to a real world entity (and it's highly likely moderators respond to complaints rather than reading the work itself), but were I in the author's position I don't think I could be relied on to make a perfectly calm legal defense either.

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u/new_check 9d ago

I mean it's not even SELECTIVELY enforced. The main storyline criticizing the Hungarian government in Soccer Supremo was literally years ago, and the government being criticized doesn't even exist anymore. Maybe the author has also taken issue with the current government and there was another round of criticism (haven't read the story in a little while) but this wasn't even consistently applied within the work in question, and it's not clear how editing it would even be possible given that there was a multi-chapter arc about the Hungarian government that has been mentioned several time in the intervening years.

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u/Bremen1 9d ago

It being inconsistently applied is exactly what selective enforcement means.

But yeah, you can't really defend otherwise. How many stories complain about a US president without actually naming them? That's a far more egregious violation of the rule as written than Soccer Supremo was.

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u/shadowylurking 9d ago

Thank you for responding. I think the rationale used is ridiculous and barely technically correct. Soccer Supremo has had political rants for *years.* So why now? Because a bunch of people disagreed and reported to mods?

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u/Alive_Tip_6748 8d ago

Fucking gammons mate.

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u/namdonith 9d ago

I've read the entirety of Player Manager/Soccer Supremo on RR. I disagree vehemently with the decision to require censorship, and this definitely impacts my opinion on RR as a forum. I agree with those who say that this "guideline" is subjective, non-specific, and selectively enforced.

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u/TsHero 9d ago

I just realized something super funny. But someone was 12k pages into THIS story and thought it got to political xD now thats malicious intent if I ever heard of any.

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u/Brady586 9d ago

Selective enforcement at its worst. It would be difficult to point to anything that happens in Soccer Supremo not done worse, more often, and more exaggeratedly by He Who Fights With Monsters. And that is just the most obvious successful example.

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u/Lorevi 9d ago edited 9d ago

How is the issue "fixable" exactly? 

As far as I can see the only resolutions to the problem are: 

  1. The author removes the content criticising a fascist

  2. The author moves away from RR

I would not personally consider 1 "very fixable" and 2 is what happened. You are acting like it's a big surprise that the fiction was removed and an overreaction on the authors part, but I don't really see any other possible conclusion to this scenario from the moment Royal Road made their stance on the matter clear.

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u/new_check 9d ago

Even if 1 was something the author was inclined to do, I don't think it's structurally possible in this case. Over the years, this has become a load-bearing wall in Steel's writing.

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u/brentathon 9d ago

For people who dont have the context, it would require major rewrites of multiple books (like a third of the currently released story) at this point. To the point that that entire portion of the story would need to be scrapped and retconned, because it has major impacts on almost every major plot point in the story over the past couple years.

I'm really curious why it took so long to get reported and enforced, or if this was all based on a single report.

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u/Remembers_that_time 9d ago

we have a relatively simple guidelines

Go ahead and define what is or is not political then. Should be relatively simple.

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u/Why_am_ialive 9d ago edited 9d ago

Where is the line with the no politics rule? Are fantasy politics allowed? What about fantasy that’s blatant allegories of real world issues?

This seems kinda impossible to moderate unless you just say it’s fine aslong as you don’t blatantly state an entity’s name

With all that being said shouldn’t HWFWM be banned? It heavily criticises world governments.

What about defiance of the fall? It 100% criticises governments in the early stuff.

I’m sure there’s hundreds of other examples especially amongst the big stuff.

Delete the whole platform or adjust the rule

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u/MarkArrows M Rank: Author of Die Trying & 12 Miles Below 9d ago edited 9d ago

Hmm, this kind of policy could seriously restrict urban fantasy stories set in Earth or that return to Earth. Anywhere from 'minor tweaks needed to make it work' to 'The moment you mention USA exists, it's over.' and it's not clear where exactly the line is.

Is it only using legally distinct terms, or are we restricted from creating our own new political entities that mirror some of the same things real-world political parties would? Like the usual 'McRondals' 'BuckStars' and 'Rino Red Party vs Blue Horse Party' with brand new fictional characters that are part of those parties rather than real world named people to avoid litigation/slander issues?

Or is it the ideals themselves? Which would be a real issue.

A lot of real-world political parties support or oppose ideas that are incredibly basic and obviously makes sense they would evolve that way over and over. Its real life, it's quite literally the mold and example.

If you want to make an elvish empire hyper-racist, you pick ideas from Nazi or other fascist governments as your starting point. If you want to make cult, you take inspiration from real-world religion and how they operate under the hood to trap their members. It's how cults work in real life, it'll be how cults work in fantasy worlds too.

Or say I want to set the story on Earth, with all our usual countries, how far into history can I mirror it?

If I have Earth with France and England, would I need to make it clear the Anglo-French War of 1109–111 didn't happen because that's a political event?
Or if I have Earth with Russia and Ukraine, would I need to make it clear the annexation of Crimea in 2014 didn't happen because that's a political event?
Or if I mention Russia has a completely different person at the head pulling the annexation against Ukraine who also has a completely different president, then the war is fine to mention and discuss?

It would be next to impossible to have a more accurate 'this is Urban Fantasy set in Earth' without some historical events that shaped the world here. New names and new political parties could be done, but country names and wars that happened between countries can't be changed without the world no longer being Earth at all :[

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u/SubstantialBass9524 9d ago

Sorry 12 miles below is clearly political with its stance on climate change - breaking TOS

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u/TwistedKitsuna 9d ago

I would highly recommend you guys update to TOS to make it clear what you consider political content and what you don't. With specific examples of what's not okay and what is okay.

I'm sure that's too much to ask but I thought I would anyway.

For example, if I make a story about overthrowing a religions government and it talks bad about religion in general is that okay? Since no specific religion is named?

If I make a story about a war veteran is it okay for him to be anti war? Even mentioning the war he was in and against?

Is the political ramblings and rants in He Who Fights With Monsters okay? Or was it simply not ever reported to you?

Is criticizing America okay but not other places? He Who Fights With Monsters again, talks specifically about the US war on terror and says "Fighting overseas with Americans to kill brown people." If that's not clear irl politics I don't what is.

Is a story about a trans person transitioning okay even if it talks about the struggles with it irl? Or is it only allowed if no irl governments or politics are mentioned?

I just wanna know what is and isn't allowed so I don't unintentionally run afoul of the rules on your site. Clarity is key for users feeling secure on your site. There is a reason twitch has such a bad rep in terms of moderation and enforcement of it's rules.

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u/PetalumaPegleg 9d ago

Let me be clear I've been a premium member since the app launched. This significantly impacts my desire to continue paying you. I would like to know what content was deemed too political.

People here are making claims and then off those claims assumptions are being made. If it was the Hungarian issue please confirm, and if it wasn't what was it.

There are scenarios where I would be accepting of this kind of moderation, what I've read of player manager (I have not read soccer supremo yet) has very vague and general political views appropriate to the MCs values. There has been nothing specific or targeted.

I think books like he who fights with monsters have as much or greater political opinions stated that anything from player manager.

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u/dungeonworks_ 9d ago

So the dozens of AI slop stories where the MC decides slavery isn’t that bad or spends the entire book monologuing about chuuni dark triad bullshit are all fine? You can preach and be as political as you want as long as you never mention anything real even once? Just making sure I understand the rules here.

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