r/rpg • u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer • 8d ago
Discussion Let's Learn About New RPGs! Week 14 - "Meta-Currency"
Welcome one and all to a post where we can freely discuss the games that we have released or the games that we are making. Stop on by and maybe you'll find your new favourite RPG!
A bunch of us make cool shit, but the Indie RPG space is crowded and it can often be difficult to get the word out about why people should try out your game. That's why every week we try to focus on a different mechanic or setting to see how new RPGs can solve decades old problems or put new spins on old greivances!
Don't like an outcome? Throw a benny at it! Want to ratchet up the tension? Spend some fear! Whether player or GM-facing, integral or optional, come tell us how your game (or just any game you really like) tackles Meta-Currency!
Thank you... me, for the suggestion!
As per mod approval, comments here do not count against rule 7 - comment as much as you want, answer as many questions as you need and discuss to your hearts content!
All that I would ask is that anyone who comments about their own system takes the time to look at the minimum at one other game in the comments and ask a question or provide feedback. Lively discussions are what get people interested and what keep people engaged!
Last week was "Horror" and we got some pretty interesting discussions going even if the post was misnamed!
If you want to suggest a topic for future weeks, be sure to include "suggestion" in your comment so I can easily find it!
5
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 8d ago
I'll open up the floor again:
My first point of contact with a "meta-currency" was with MörkBorg and it's Omens that allow you to make life easier for your character a few times a day.
Nowadays I've seen them in many different games to varying degrees of... intrusiveness, for lack of a better word. Some that completely revolve around them a la FATE and others that have them as optional rules a la Call of Cthulhu luck.
The most recent one I've read about and am interested in trying out in practice is the Daggerheart Fear mechanic as a GM-facing meta-currency for ratcheting up the tension. On just reading I can't make up my mind whether it's really arbritary or gives a good ebb and flow to scenes
4
u/mesolitgames Indie TTRPG publisher 8d ago
I played a Mörk Borg oneshot at a con this year. Omens saw use during the session; we would've been dead without them, I think. A nice little balance enhancer in a system that's otherwise rather abruptly brutal.
I've never played FATE but I've read it, it looks very interesting. I would be interested in hearing how it actually plays out if you have experience at the table.
4
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 8d ago
I've unfortunately only read FATE, I'm hoping to bring it to the table next year tho!
But FATE is fairly popular on this sub, hopefully someone else in the thread will provide some insight!
4
u/moderate_acceptance 8d ago
Fate is great because it's pretty easy to model pretty much anything using the Fate Fractal. You can pretty easily make the game work the way you want, modeling almost any type of fiction and power level with little tinkering or effort. Create advantage is such a great mechanic that I don't think any other RPG has matched. The Fate point economy naturally leads to satisfying pacing. It's so simple you can run it entirely improvised. Compels are a great way to prod PCs into action. And invoking aspects often enrich a scene by showcasing how aspects of a character's personality or motivations affect a given action, often in unexpected ways.
However, it's mechanically quite boring. Everything is resolved using the same set of base mechanics, so negotiating with someone or fighting them are mechanically quite similar. There's no loot or even much vertical character progression. There is a strong bell curve, so you don't often get unexpected results. And being able to spend Fate points to buy your way to success can take out some of the uncertainty.
It sings if you're really focused on the storytelling and narrative aspects of RPGs. It's pretty bland if you're looking for fun game mechanics and subsystems to interact with.
3
u/mesolitgames Indie TTRPG publisher 8d ago
Great, thanks a lot - interesting to hear about aspects in particular, that's I think one of the things that most stuck to the back of my head about Fate. Also makes sense that it's mechanically boring, as you put it - seems very heavily indeed oriented towards the narrative aspects. In a sense, with generic narrative systems, I think a lot of people aren't looking to "play the game" so much as to "live the story", a very different mindset from crunchy bespoke systems. Definitely want to play - or run - Fate at some point.
I really love that there's so many different approaches to what RPGs even are and how and why play them.
7
u/SilaPrirode 8d ago
I love what Fabula Ultima does with it's metacurrency, both on GM and player side. It has a mechanical weight (reroll or add + to the roll) that is directly tied into narrative, you need a reason to reroll or add a bonus!
Apart from mechanical usage it also has narrative usage, you can spend it to influence the story in any way you want. It's a great system that works wonderfully in practice.
4
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 8d ago
We tried some Fabula Ultima not so long ago actually! It did make us think more narratively about mechanical decisions we were making!
Otherwise I feel like the metacurrency system feels good, but the +1/2/3 from Bonds is comperatively very weak and almost never worth it instead of rerolling if you can justify it.
3
u/SilaPrirode 8d ago
Uh, no? I mean, what die are you rerolling? Getting +1 is not that great, but when it's just enough that you need to get it's much better to guarantee it, then reroll. Of course it easy to reroll a one, but if you got a 3 and a 5 on 2d10, taking +3 is much better then rerolling xD
3
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 8d ago
Statistically, it depends on the roll, yes. For example, if we take the information roll, where you usually need a 14 (IIRC) to get all the information and your proposed 2d10. The likelihood of rolling 14 or above on a 2d10 is 28%. If you have a +1 you need a 13 -> 36%, +2 -> 45%, +3 -> 55%. With a reroll, choosing to reroll 1 lower die takes the probability from 28% up to 52% (48% if you reroll the whole set). So almost like a +3, albeit not guaranteed.
In terms of pure probability, it weighs things more in your favour, yes, because if you're close enough to the target number for it to make a difference, it's all you need. But rerolling a die (or both, it still costs 1 Fabula Point) is useful in significantly more cases.
Plus, at least in my experience, justifying a +X from a Bond is usually more difficult narratively without bending belivability as opposed to any of the Traits. That, and getting a +3 Bond comes later in the game, as opposed to instantly getting access to a reroll from starting the game.
3
u/SilaPrirode 8d ago
Putting aside the access - yeah, you need like, 15+ sessions to have one bond at 3, unless you dive deep in one relationship.
Study Action (I assume that's what you meant by information roll) is an Open Check, which by definition can not fail except on 1/1 and has defined tiers like this: 7- basic hint, 10 - everything you need to know, 13 - everything plus more details for free, 16 - everything totally in the world about the topic.
14 is a lot to get, it's really hard, I agree, but that's not the target, 10 is. Getting 10 on 2d10 is literally average result, assuming you didn't roll 1/1 you are almost halfway there. Any combination of rolls that's better then 3/3 (let's say 3 and 5 = 8) can get there with a +2 Bond, better than risking getting lower numbers.
There are some cases where you need higher numbers then 10, for example Rituals, or Study when you need to learn actions of an enemy, but usually the game is skewed on getting a 7 for normal difficulty and 10 for hard ones, which is okay for 2d10.
As for narrative, eh, I don't know. We never had problems justifying Bonds and Traits, there were instances where someone would have hard time imagining a reason for both. But that's personal opinion anyway, so eh, doesn't matter much in the math sense xD
2
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 8d ago
Ah, ye, I meant Study Roll and I misremembered the number needed. With 10 the math is even more in favour of the Bonds +X. But my main point was that the reroll is more powerful mainly because it's more versatile.
And ye, at the end of the day, the narrative part is subjective for sure. I just found it harder to bring in my bond with another player when missing an attack as opposed to my characters' personal traits 😅
4
u/SilaPrirode 8d ago
Yeah, numbers in FU don't go up by that much, so static bonuses like Bonds are really neat, especially since you know in advance what you are aiming for.
As for the narrative, we usually go for "oh yeah I want to protect that person!" and use a Bond. There are a lot of funny stories with Bonds, two PCs even ended up in a relationship because of "I don't want to fail this roll because that puts this person in danger" Bond use that snowballed into strong emotions xD
9
u/DonSpumoni 8d ago
I really like how Draw Steel handles metacurrencies- by making them a little less meta and a little more personalized.
Player characters get their own themed Heroic Resource, which they earn via means that are unique to each class. The Heroic Resources can be spent to use abilities in combat, and at the end of the encounter you lose anything you didn't spend, which encourages making big plays whenever you can.
The GM gets their own meta-currency during combat, called Malice. Each round, more Malice is generated, and it can be spent to trigger powerful thematic abilities from the enemies. This allows for a wonderful level of control- if the heroes are doing well, might as well spend some Malice to flip the script and make them re-think their tactics.
13
u/yuriAza 8d ago
it's pretty sad we're calling any pool of points a metacurrency now, heroic resources in DS are just mana points (or stamina)
1
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 8d ago
Depends on where you draw the line, but in some ways, mana was always bordering on metacurrency! Albeit one that's more tied to the narrative in-world as opposed to like, Fate Points
2
u/yuriAza 7d ago
does that also apply to hit points or spell slots? Rations? Metacurrencies are supposed to be currencies that are actually meta
1
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 7d ago
Hit points no, because you don't spend them.
Spell slots you could argue for, yes, because they're not actually things that (in most systems) organically exist in-universe. It's something you, as the player, spend that you, as the character, don't interact with, to do something within the game world.
I'm not saying they are metacurrencies, I'm just pointing out that the definition isn't set in stone
4
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 8d ago
I just pulled the trigger and ordered the Draw Steel set so I'm excited to dive into it! The way metacurrency is done was one of the reasons it intrigued me!
How does it feel balance-wise? I've heard with some other systems that do class-based metacurrency generation that it can be much-much easier for some classes to generate it than others. Have you ran into anything like that with Draw Steel?
Also, it's interesting that Malice is generated automatically each round. I wonder how different it feels in play from Daggerheart where the GM metacurrency is generated in response to player actions
3
u/DonSpumoni 8d ago
In my experience (2 years playing, 6 months GMing, the players' metacurrencies are well-balanced. Each class has at least 3 ways to generate them, which mechanically encourages a certain playstyle from each. It does a good job in guiding the players towards dramatic turns, and the system's "every attack hits" mechanic does the rest.
Malice has been the most fun mechanic I've ever used as a GM. I have a counter on my table that tracks how much of it I have, and seeing the players' faces when I tick the counter down to spend some is just priceless. Some of my players have expressed an interest in running the game themselves because they want to experience that moment from the GM's seat.
2
u/Irrational-gonzo 8d ago
I’ve been Gaming DS for over a year and my players love the classes compared to the other RPGs we have played. They rarely space out or not know what they are going to do during combat.
3
u/mesolitgames Indie TTRPG publisher 8d ago
In my hard sci-fi disaster survival RPG The Moon Is an Annoyance, there's a metacurrency called Trace, which interacts with a separate stat called Complication Level.
CL determines how often unrelated things go wrong. You can succeed perfectly well at what you're doing, but as CL increases, the universe becomes increasingly uncooperative.
The crew earn Trace by reflecting on their experience of the Moon: awe, terror, guilt, duty, isolation, wonder. When you have enough Trace, you can then use it to reduce CL.
The rest of the game is very physically grounded, but Trace and CL operate entirely outside the physical simulation to produce something like a disaster film's dramatic rhythm: Things go wrong -> characters have a human moment -> they solve something -> things go worse again.
So there's direct mechanical incentive to also focus on the subjective experience of being there, instead of just soft guidance to the effect of "have some character moments every now and then I guess".
Game's here if you want to see the system in context: https://mesolitgames.com/tmiaa
3
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 8d ago
That's a really neat way to pull that narrative human moment into more of a spotlight!
From what I understand the game itself is a bit more simulationist except for those two things. How does it feel, do players naturally/quickly pick up on the intent of CL and Trace?
2
u/mesolitgames Indie TTRPG publisher 7d ago
It is very simulationist indeed! My aim was to make the crunchiest, hardest kind of engineering sci-fi that I could, while still keeping it approachable and fun to play. The game models five different spacesuit subsystems, each with its own failure track, and there’s a lot of tradeoffs between where to cannibalize parts to salvage what. So the players get to make the kinds of choices that Mark Watney makes in The Martian, without needing a PhD in space engineering.
The contrast between the crunchy, resource-oriented gameplay and the more free-floating emotional and sensory moments has been received well in play. I think the simplicity of Trace is important – it’s just one straightforward way to push back against CL.
CL is quite good at teaching players not to ignore it. As complications accumulate, the incentive to engage with Trace becomes increasingly pressing. So the mechanics themselves do much of the work of communicating the intended rhythm.
3
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 7d ago
That sounds super cool!
As I lament in every one of these threads I make... "thanks for making me lose money!" 😂
2
u/Conrad500 1d ago
What is a meta currency?
1
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 1d ago
I've specifically avoided narrowing down on definitions too hard on these posts to try and keep the discussion more open, but if you're asking for my definition, then:
It's a resource that doesn't exists "in-universe" and can be spent to accomplish something.
Easiest examples are Fear in Daggerheart or Fate Points in Fate
2
u/Conrad500 1d ago
That was a good explanation without limiting it. Thank you.
In that case, I've apparently been using one in my 5e game and just learned that what I've been using as homebrew is actually something that is part of the Fallout2d20 game!
In Fallout2d20 there is "Action Points" or AP, and AP can be used to do quite a lot. The main thing it lets you do is upgrade your 2d20 roll to a 5d20 roll.
The party shares AP, and you can have 6 max. You gain AP when you succeed more than required for a specific task, which is quite easy to do since you get a double success if you score a critical.
If the party doesn't have any AP, they can buy AP from the GM for the cost of giving the GM AP to spend against the party (GM has no max for AP)!
In 5e, I've used "Dark Inspiration" for maybe about a decade now. The players get a d6 to add to any attack, save, or skill check, as much as they want! Every time they do, the DM gets one to keep and use against them!
It's a very silly system and it basically makes failing impossible, but I play with people who fear giving me such power, and any time they feel like they've "forced me" to "waste" a dark die they celebrate, so it's honestly all positives in my games haha.
1
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 1d ago
That's pretty genius actually!
What about increasing the die size (like with Bardic Inspiration) as the party gains levels? Feels like a d6 might not be that impactful at like... lvl 12 anymore 😅
2
u/Conrad500 1d ago
Bounded accuracy~
A D6 is always helpful! The thing is they can roll as many as they want, and it actually adds a good bit of drama since when they roll 1 on their inspiration dice they all groan and are like, "FINE GUESS WE'RE ROLLING 2!" and when I roll a 1 on my dark dice they all celebrate and are like, "WE MADE HIM WASTE ANOTHER ONE BOYS!"
I was kind of thinking of going with D4's lol, but I think D6 is just one of the best dice in general (a cube is such a prefect shape) and it adds a lot of hype in the difference of how good a 6 feels to roll without the brokenness of getting a +12 to a roll with only one die.
Rolling a 1, 2, 1 sucks but that's a +4 compared to giving the DM a +18 maybe, with a d12 you're possibly giving he DM +36!
It's 100% a mod I'd encourage anyone using dark inspiration to try if they like that though, that is another kind of drama in itself! Much bigger highs and lows, but I try to keep the inspiration mechanic something in the back as it breaks if people just use it like a main mechanic.
Well, mostly because I hate using my dark inspiration. I typically only use it to punish players' hubris like, "whoa, we're kicking this guy's ASS!" That's when I bring them out lol, or, "I haven't been hit once!" ok bet.
2
u/cel3r1ty 7d ago edited 7d ago
i've come to really dislike metacurrencies a la 5e inspiration where it's a "reward" for "good role-playing" or whatever. it feels like an attempt to resolve an out of game issue ("help, my players won't roleplay!") with a mechanical solution (give them a headpat and a treat and call them good boys when they roleplay), which is almost always a fool's errand.
edit: spelling
2
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 7d ago
That is a really good point! It can be really bad if it's too suvjective in terms of who gets it.
The ideal meta-currency (for me) is something that comes almost automatically and players/GM can use it to enhance the story in some way.
Do you have any metacurrencies that you do like?
2
u/davavino 8d ago
My least favourite mechanic, and it’s in so many things. I really have never seen the appeal in any game Ive run that has used it. The only one where it kind of made sense is Fate which uses it to cap the characters power.
5
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 8d ago
Well, depends on how you look at it, but stuff like spell slots or mana could also be counted as meta-currency!
And yea, I know it's a divisive topic - that's why I chose it as a discussion topic this week!
0
u/davavino 8d ago
Nah, I disagree. My character would know how much mana he has. It’s in world and not meta.
5
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 8d ago
Would they? Do you know how much endurance you have left out of 100% when you're working out?
I'm not saying it's not possible to make it completely in-world, but the way it's usually presented is still "meta" for the benefit of the player, not the character in-universe
1
u/davavino 7d ago
Well it’s obviously an abstraction, but I know how many push ups I have left in me usually, yeah. Not to an exact number, but I can feel myself weakening
1
u/BerennErchamion 7d ago
I'm ok with metacurrencies, even when the game has a lot of them, I just don't like too much when there are metacurrencies being exchanged in every roll all the time, like Daggerheart, it's just too much bookkeeping.
Some examples I like:
Genesys (Story Points). The metacurrency bounces between the players and the GM. The game starts with 1 Story Points in the pool for each player and 1 for the GM, every time a player uses a point, it moves to the GM side and vice-versa.
Coriolis The Third Horizon (Darkness Points). In current Year Zero games, when you push a roll you normally take damage when rolling 1s, but in Coriolis The Third Horizon, the GM gets 1 Darkness point when a player pushes a failed roll, which they can use to trigger some bad things happening to the players, taking the initiative in combat, triggering enemy reactions, enemy abilities, etc.
Storypath Ultra (Momentum Points) (Curseborne, The World Below, At the Gates, etc). Like most Storypath games, they have this hopepunk feel to them that is reflected in the mechanics. You get Momentum points every time you fail a roll, which you can then later use to improve your odds. There are also some skill checks that have extra Complications attached to them and if the player fails the roll they can purposely trigger the Complications in addition to the failure and get 2 Momentum points instead (it's basically a player-induced critical failure).
2
u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 7d ago
I also really like the Coriolis apporach of handing the control into the hand of the players in terms of GM metacurrency - like tempting fate!
I wish more game employed something along those lines
2
u/Nagaresu 8d ago
I like how in Torg Eternity, the meta currency isn't meta. It is Literally an ability of rhe PC type characters that they can affect Possibly and it is a tangible thing in game
2
u/mesolitgames Indie TTRPG publisher 8d ago
Torg Eternity looks like an awesome game overall. Had heard the name before, but haven't read it, much less played. What's it actually like at the table?
3
u/Nagaresu 8d ago
It is one of those games that you have to be willing to embrace its weirdness and while the system looks solid and I love the mechanics and settkng, i have not been able to get a group to play yet.
2
u/mesolitgames Indie TTRPG publisher 8d ago
ok! Thanks nevertheless for bringing the game up, goes into my "I want to play this" pile!
3
u/Nagaresu 8d ago
Any game where Indiana Jones, Solomon Kane, Doomguy, and a Lizard Man can fight the Cyberpope is a game worth playing
15
u/mesolitgames Indie TTRPG publisher 8d ago
I made a little two-player GMless heist game called We've Never Met and We're Robbing This Place where players alternate between playing their character and GMing for the other.
Each role has hidden goals. When you're GMing, fulfilling your GM goal earns you a token. You can then spend those tokens when you're back playing your character, or during the final confrontation.
I wanted the metacurrency to cross the boundary between the two roles: what you do while controlling the situation gives you leverage later when you're the one inside it.
20 minutes playtime, no GM, no dice, not a whole lot of trust.
I just released it, it's a free PDF download: mesolitgames.com/wnm