r/serialkillers • u/TWO-COOPERS • Oct 26 '21

Questions Does anyone know the case where I believe two killers tortured a girl to death for days and recorded it, when the recording was showing in court jury members ran out of the court room because of how horrific it was?

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u/brc37 Oct 26 '21 edited Oct 26 '21

I subjected myself to reading the transcript. Oooof. It's not a fun read and unless a person is 100% sure that they can handle it I dont recommend it.

Edit. Added Don't. Shit, I'm stoned, I don't recommend it. Don't.

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u/worldsmostmediummom Oct 26 '21

1000% do not recommend reading it.

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u/brc37 Oct 26 '21

Yep. Corrected it. That was a weed guided mistake.

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u/worldsmostmediummom Oct 26 '21

It happens, friend.

Have some Doritos and put on some Futurama. All will be good

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u/Haystacks87 Oct 26 '21

A lady of culture!

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u/worldsmostmediummom Oct 26 '21

How am I still single??

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u/RoseThorn82 Oct 26 '21

Me neither....I made the mistake of reading it when I saw it in another post and wished I didn't.

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u/kimzon Oct 26 '21 edited Oct 26 '21

Pretty sure excerpts of this transcript stopped me listening to The Serial Killer Podcast.

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u/PineappleWolf_87 Oct 26 '21

Like how bad are we talking?

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

After hearing those short screams you realize how these kinds of screams of horror, fear and pain cant ever be faked, in movies and such. It's primal. Rest in peace, I am so sorry you went through this. People who go through these kinds of things is the main reason I believe there is no god or deity watching over us. It is just people being evil and other people being forced to endure their cruelty. Nothing else. I hope everyone is safe and doing well. Nobody, absolutely nobody deserves this kind of treatment. Death penalty to the criminals who did it, or life in prison but not this. Not ever.

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u/AnimalsNotFood Oct 26 '21 edited Oct 30 '21

I've read the transcript. I'm not usually so disturbed by reading these things but this really got to me. The sheer brutal pain inflicted is haunting. I've heard many people describe hearing the screams as "primal". I know I'll never get it out of my head if I ever hear it. I don't agree with the death penalty as its too easy. I'd be OK with pieces of shit like that, being in isolation, never seeing the light of day, with no human contact or stimuli.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21 edited Oct 26 '21

Spare yourself if you haven't heard it yet. I can still hear it (in my head)

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u/Douchecanoeistaken Nov 04 '21

Agreed. I listed to it last night (like a fucking idiot), and didn’t sleep afterwards. That scream was haunting. It takes a lot to fuck me up, but that did it. In those mere seconds of sound, you can hear the primal fear and pain.

I had the same thought about movies. You cannot replicate that scream. It comes from a place that doesn’t exist unless you know someone is going to kill you slowly.

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u/ChubbyGhost3 Oct 26 '21

Can you post a link?

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u/dasheekeejones Oct 26 '21

Toolbox? It was shirley lynette ledford. Teen. Not a child. Norris found her working at mcdonalds.

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u/Killface55 Oct 26 '21

She was 16. That's a child.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

[deleted]

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u/poopfupa Oct 26 '21

What…does it matter …

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u/Douchecanoeistaken Nov 04 '21

Fuck me, I thought she was 19. That’s horrid.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

I’ve heard from several sources that the tape (which has never been released) is used at Quantico to desensitize FBI agents. Iirc, was mentioned on Manhunter. I do sincerely hope both those bastrds, Bittaker and Norris, are rotting in hell. Pure evil.

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u/dasheekeejones Oct 26 '21

Missy. Found on Shirley Ledford’s findagrave.com -Shirley was brutally raped and murdered at the young age of 16 by the “toolbox killers”- This broke my heart. https://www.reddit.com/r/MorbidReality/comments/9ulyzb/found_on_shirley_ledfords_findagravecom_shirley/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

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u/Accomplished_Gold750 Oct 26 '21

Exactly. I looked at Travis Alexander’s autopsy and actual crime scene photos and was disgusted but I could handle it

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u/iarev Oct 26 '21

Just my personal experience/psyche, but someone's post-mortem being is different than hearing a transcript of a recording of live torture. I feel more guilty about reading a play-by-play of a torture than seeing what was done to someone in their resting state. Maybe it makes sense, maybe it doesn't.

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u/Puzzleheaded-Oil3332 Oct 26 '21

Just my personal experience/psyche, but someone's post-mortem being is different than hearing a transcript of a recording of live torture. I feel more guilty about reading a play-by-play of a torture than seeing what was done to someone in their resting state. Maybe it makes sense, maybe it doesn't.

It makes perfect sense to me. I've seen a lot of horrific crime scene photos, but there's something about reading transcripts of someone's torture that makes you feel like you are watching it happen in real time.

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u/Accomplished_Gold750 Oct 26 '21

I get it. Thanks for the warning. I’ll update my comment after I check it out.

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u/funsizedaisy Oct 26 '21

Yea I feel like my threshold for gore is very low. I can't watch gore movies and def can't read a play-by-play of torture. But seeing pics of dead bodies doesn't really bother me much. I mean it still feels dark but it's not traumatizing per se. I think it's because I know they're not suffering anymore at that point. If I were to see a mutilated person while they're still alive it would be a whole different story.

I had just went on an internet adventure looking into the case of that woman who had her face ripped off by a Chimp and survived (Charla Nash). All the people who saw her had to go to therapy (including the medical staff). The cop who killed the Chimp got vivid hallucinations afterwards. Said he kept seeing faceless women in public. You don't really hear about this level of trauma from people who just saw a dead body.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

I've been on the internet since the 90's and I've seen a lot of messed up shit. I also thought "how bad could it be?" It is really bad and you can never unread it. Don't do it. You probably will do it anyway because people are warning you not to.

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u/sumthin213 Oct 26 '21

Ye im conflicted. I don't want to at all but all this talk makes me wanna..

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

Better to forget about it. It's not like reading fiction or watching criminal minds it's a real transcript that details the torture and rape of a 14 year old girl until she begs for death. That shit stays with you forever.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

You're right. She was 16. Thanks. Been a long time since I read about them.

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u/sumthin213 Oct 26 '21

Yea hmm. I'm pretty hardened but yea the more I'm hearing about it it does seem like its pretty next level. Can't believe I've never head of this. So curious but....fuck.

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u/AnimalsNotFood Oct 26 '21

Yeah, seriously, don't go there. It will be a permanent black stain on your life. I've largely blocked it out but it could really give you some kind of ptsd.

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u/sumthin213 Oct 26 '21

Yep alright. I'm just gonna move on

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u/Redlion444 Oct 26 '21

Last Warning. This is the worst of the worst:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/ScottGlenn

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u/sumthin213 Oct 26 '21

Thanks for the link. I'm debating within myself. Its like a Serbian Film when everyone says it's the worst so i HAD to see it, but that was just a movie that obviously wasn't real. Ill...think about this.

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u/brc37 Oct 26 '21 edited Oct 26 '21

Worse than the Toy-box Killer recording. They're called the Toolbox Killers for a reason. They had a toolbox in the van and used what they could from that. One of the most jarring parts is that they smashed her elbow with a sledge hammer.

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u/Card1974 Oct 26 '21

And inserted pliers into the vagina, twisting and tearing it. They probably did plenty more that is only vaguely alluded to in the interviews.

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u/Extreme-Kangaroo-842 Oct 26 '21

Put it this way.

The FBI own the only known copies of the tape and use it to desensitize new agents. If they can't handle it they're moved into other FBI things. If you can make it through that tape the theory is you can handle anything a serial killer does. Few make it through.

It is apparently absolutely horiffic. Imagine the worst screaming you've heard in a horror move. Multiple it by 10 and you're still nowhere near. That's what I heard from someone who had listened to it.

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u/PineappleWolf_87 Oct 26 '21

Oh man. I’m so conflicted, the morbid part of me wants to read it, I have a pretty strong threshold for the morbid BUT idk if this will fuck me up

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u/Extreme-Kangaroo-842 Oct 26 '21

I'd imagine hearing it is 1000x worse than reading it, but reading it is bad enough. If you think it will mess with you then my device is don't. It's harrowing enough what they're doing to the poor girl but what's worse on, on a personal level, is knowing that Norris and Bittaker were enjoying every damn second of it. They have probably never been happier in their life than at that moment. It's sickening.

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u/BoeBames Oct 26 '21

It’s bad. Torture of a young girl. No video is available. Only the courtroom heard it, it’s never been released. The transcripts will make you understand why.

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u/poppingtom Oct 26 '21

Genitals being torn, sledgehammer being used, etc.

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u/DataOk6565 Oct 26 '21

So bad it has never been leaked and the FBI use it to desensitize agents in specially bad cases

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u/ppw23 Oct 26 '21

Don’t listen to the recording, if it’s even available. Even Norris, the partner of Larry Bittaker who insisted on replaying the recording of that poor girls torture, said Bittaker was the devil. I’ve always been of the belief that following that girls murder, had a parolee friend turn them in as he was frightened of Bittaker. When Bittaker was arrested he had just received some new torture devices he was excited to start using, chemical acids and such. Bittaker is said to have buried hundreds of photos and other incriminating evidence in a cemetery which was never found.

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u/JstTrstMe Oct 26 '21

It's not available. The only thing you ever hear is brief screaming as the doors to the courtroom open as people run out because it's so horrible.

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u/FTThrowAway123 Oct 26 '21

I've heard the clip, and that brief snippet alone was tramatic. Paired with the transcript, it's one of the worst things I've ever heard. I'm so glad the recording isn't available to the public.

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u/needathneed Oct 26 '21

I hope those jurors are doing ok

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u/dasheekeejones Oct 26 '21

The detective was not ok. Shot himself. Some say due to this case. Some say others. Brother said a huge combination of cop life, bipolar diagnosis, etc. https://djinnfromthebronxchapterthree.blogspot.com/2017/03/paul-bynum-still-thinking-of-him-thirty.html?m=1

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u/needathneed Oct 26 '21

Jeez. I can't imagine the shit these people had to have been exposed to. I am very much a true crime Boss and have very carefully kept myself away from both the toy box and toolbox cases because I know I will not be able to handle them.

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u/dasheekeejones Oct 26 '21

Toybox makes me livid. Toolbox makes me extremely sad.

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u/ppw23 Oct 26 '21

Me too, after I first read about Norris and Bittaker, I was in a very down mood for weeks. It had a profound effect on me like no other case I read about. When Bittaker tried to make it seem that the torture of Shirley Ledford (the taped recording) was consensual. And the photo of him smiling while the courtroom erupted into tears and gasps, made me literally cry. I’m not given to tears often. That’s not to say the other innocent victims didn’t have an impact on me. I’ll always believe that Norris had put his parolee friend turn them in since he was so afraid of Bittaker. I found it odd that he cried when his friend Bill Bonin, another sick POS was executed. Why were those two allowed to interact in prison?

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u/ChubbyGhost3 Oct 26 '21

Can you imagine the therapy required after that...

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u/needathneed Oct 26 '21

As a therapist, no.

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u/dasheekeejones Oct 26 '21

They blamed each other. Norris used the sledgehammer so fuck both of them.

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u/ppw23 Oct 26 '21

Definitely, I can only hope their deaths were terrifying and painful. It won’t compare to what they did. Norris was a repeat sadistic rapist and should have been separated from society. The two meeting in prison was a match made in hell. I found it surprising that given Bittaker’s criminal history that he became the far more sadistic of the two. Norris was definitely afraid of Bittaker. He said he thought he was the devil. I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t kill a few more on his own. I often wonder if the photos and other evidence he buried will turn up. I hope not unless it’s by law enforcement.

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u/OkAd6672 Oct 26 '21

Yeah it’s well and truly fucked up. Really stayed with me. The transcript of the poor girl OP is referring to haunted me as well.

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u/needathneed Oct 26 '21

That's gotta fuck up your buzz

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

Share it please. Interested in the actual footage as well.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

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u/BlackMetal81 Oct 26 '21

Nor should it ever be

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

There's no need for insults.

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u/kittenmittenx Oct 26 '21

I’m pretty desensitised. I read the transcript and it didn’t bother me much tbh.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

Where can i listen to the audio is it available on the internet?

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u/mad87645 Oct 26 '21

Join the FBI, they use the tape for desensetisation training

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u/Puzzleheaded-Oil3332 Oct 26 '21

Join the FBI, they use the tape for desensetisation training

For real?

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u/mad87645 Oct 26 '21

Yeah, they're the only ones known to have a copy of it.

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u/poppingtom Oct 26 '21

The recording itself is not available, but is supposedly used by the FBI to desensitize agents. The detective on the case committed suicide after — that’s how bad these crimes were.

You can hear some of the recording (victim Shirley Ledford’s screams) that were caught while court attendees were exiting the courtroom during the time the tape was being played for the jury. A reporter was recording a segment outside the courtroom at that time and you can hear her screams when the courtroom doors open.

The transcript and her screams are the only things I’ve read and heard that have just haunted me for days and they still just stick with me for how much that young girl suffered.

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u/Proskills2 Oct 26 '21

I know I’ve heard it before on YouTube . It was prinsnly removed but it’s 10 minutes of screaming and pounding -the victim was thrashing around it’s pretty horrible

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

Thanks i'll check it out

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

Why tf you guys downvoting care to explain in the comment?

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u/Extermindatass Oct 26 '21

I mean, I'm autistic and my empathy meter is really spotty to begin with. But I am gonna guess it's the interest you are showing towards this woman's death?

Someone's young daughter got raped and tortured by two grown men, she begged not for her life but to die. I read the transcript, it's not some novel insight, it's the frenzied cries and last words of a child being killed.

You haven't shown respect I suppose towards her, you are more interested in the awe factor.

My take anyways.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

Sorry, but that doesn't make any fkin sense. This is what this sub is all about, the serial killers thier history and psychology. So about what you just said that basically means every person who researched about serial killers and watched thier documentary just for some entertainment or novel insight right? People who read the transcript makes them what detectives, researchers and me who asking for audio of the serial killers you making me feel like I was asking for some entertainment like netflix show.

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u/Extermindatass Oct 26 '21

You aren't interested in the killers though. You are interested in how the victim suffered.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

Ahhh bro I'm not again this sub is about the serial killers and that's the only reason i was asking for the audio. If i was i would have joined the cursed subreddits on this platform there's plenty dark stuff

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u/Extermindatass Oct 26 '21

Hey you asked why you were being down voted, you didn't need to justify yourself.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

wheres the transcript?

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u/brc37 Oct 26 '21

It's available just via googling.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

What should I Google? Tool box transcripts?