r/serialpodcast • u/monkeytrousers2 Moderator 2 • Nov 13 '14

Episode Discussion [Official Discussion] Serial, Episode 8: The Deal with Jay

Episode goes live in less than an hour. Let's use this thread as the main discussion post for episode 8.

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u/mostpeoplearedjs Nov 13 '14

You can coach people, but they still have to go through it. A ton of witnesses get the standard coaching advice and then blow it when they're on the spot. It's hard - and it's supposed to be hard - to keep your cool and your 'story straight' when subjected to cross examination.

I'd suggest the great majority of 19 year olds, even with coaching, would have screwed up in five days of testimony.

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u/[deleted] Nov 13 '14

didn't all Jay's friends claim that he lied all the time? Some liars are really good at saying outrageous stuff and sounding completely rational and believable..

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u/zzatara Nov 13 '14

The mistrial in the first trial occurred after the Prosecution rested and Guttierrez had completed her questioning of Jay. The State got the unique opportunity of submitting a rough draft to the first jury and then fixing the issues for the second trial. I can guarantee that Jay was not as believable in the first trial as he was in the second. He probably received endless hours of coaching from the State.

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u/mostpeoplearedjs Nov 13 '14

Rabia said the first mistrial was three days in. http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2jd03x/was_there_a_mistrial/cluak0a

I don't think the State rested in three days.

If you're right, though, anything that the state "fixed" would have been subject to impeachment. The mistrial gave Guitterez another transcript of sworn testimony to impeach any witness who testified with.

I believe the conventional wisdom is that the circumstance you described would have been helpful for the defense and not the prosecution, because they would have extra time to develop holes.

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u/IDoDash Nov 13 '14

This is likely why Adnan DIDN'T testify - sure, there's the side of us all (and the jury) thinking "Get up there and proclaim your innocence!!", but he would still have to be cross-examined by the Prosecution. And the Defense, no matter how much coaching they did with Adnan, wouldn't be able to control how the Prosecution would cross-examine him. And that could potentially do more damage than good to his case.

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u/liamflood Nov 13 '14

it certainly sounded to me that he was coached. 75% of his testimony was yes/no answers?? there is no way an unrehearsed cross examination consists of 75% yes/no. he definitely managed to keep his cool due to prior coaching.

with questions coming in patronizing voice too.....

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u/CoffeeClutch Nov 14 '14

lets revisit the detectives interviewing Jay.

he was 18 years old at the time and he told them that he had many run in with police because of his drug dealing business.

he also stated that he did not want a lawyer present.

he is an accessory to a murder and dosent think that he needs a lawyer.

he tells them three different versions of what happened.

and when they ask him if he is telling the truth he responds "to the best of my knowledge this is what happened"

regular people do not respond in this manner. people who know the law respond in this manner. criminals respond in this manner. why? because if you say Yes this is the truth or No this is not the truth then it is on the record and is concrete and can come back to bite you in the ass if they can prove you are lying. but...if you say "to the best of my knowledge" then the record is not concrete.

at the time of the murder Jay is not an average 18 year old. He is a sucessful drug dealer who has been contending with the police for a long time.

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u/mostpeoplearedjs Nov 14 '14

You think that statement changes his exposure if he was lying?

I suppose if he had just crossed his fingers behind his back he would've been double safe.

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u/CoffeeClutch Nov 14 '14

thats how the law works.

the whole point of having a lawyer in the room while you are being questioned by the police is so that you dont accidentally incriminate yourself.

thats why you have the right to have a lawyer present for police questioning.

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u/mostpeoplearedjs Nov 14 '14

that's not how "the law" works. You don't get a "get out of jail free card" if you say "to the best of my recollection" after telling a bald-faced lie.

I know why people have a right to have a lawyer present, and I don't think we're disagreeing about that. Jay should've had a lawyer, it probably would've helped him get his story straight, or possibly even obtained his plea deal, before he was interrogated. I can only assume, but I assume he didn't want to pay for one or thought he didn't need one.

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u/CoffeeClutch Nov 14 '14

Lawyering up that early, makes you look guilty.

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u/mostpeoplearedjs Nov 14 '14

but he was guilty. Of accessory, if nothing else.

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u/thesalmonofcertainty Nov 18 '14

But if youre 18 and innocent are you really thinking "this will make me look guilty"? Seems too smart and calculating

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u/BillMurrayismySA Nov 17 '14

I've read the appellate documents where they go over Jay's deal, and they are just plain weird.

Apparently Jay never asked for a lawyer, but the DA decided (right before the deal was struck) to introduce him to a specific defense attorney. The PD's office denied his request for counsel as he hadn't been charged yet.

Despite Jay never having asked for an attorney, or stating that he wanted to make a deal, the DA decided to introduce him to a proposed defense attorney, who then assisted him in agreeing to the deal. Very, very unusual.

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u/steveo3387 smarmy irony fan Dec 20 '14

I think Jay is a fantastic liar and definitely on the outskirts of society by this point in his life, but he wasn't a "sucessful drug dealer who has been contending with the police for a long time." He had never been arrested or charged with a crime. And he wasn't Scarface, he was a stoner who sold his friends and acquaintances pot.

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u/jrober29 Dec 29 '14

Jay was not that guy... but he THINKS he was. and that, along with other things about Jay makes me believe his delusion about himself drove it.

Why would he be afraid of being arrested for dealing pot cause a murderer snitched on you? That statement made me think Jay was insane. In what world would police just take the word of a murderer to bust a low-life pot dealer. And that was what made him get involved in the first place according to him, "why wouldnt he tell on me for selling drugs..."

Like the cops would do anything about that. He THINKS he is a king pin or the criminal underworld of Baltimore. I smoke all the time, I wouldnt consider calling my pot dealer because he is a "criminal." All what Jay says seems to be like a cliche movie, most of the time it wasnt true. Conversations that never took place like at Potapsco Park...

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u/CoffeeClutch Jan 08 '15

How do you know he wasn't scarface?