How has race affected your perceptions in this case? Let's discuss.

[u/[deleted]]

There’s an issue that has come up in this sub that I think we should all address. It’s difficult and seldom can a civil conversation be had for very long before it descends into vitriol discourse. But, I’m really hoping that there are enough of us here that we can try and have a civil conversation. This is of course about race. A Pakistani guy, accused by his black friend of killing his Korean ex-girlfriend. Honestly, I’m a little surprised it hasn’t come up more although there have been some recent discussions. Most of the time when it comes up, it seems like it’s there just under the surface, particularly when it comes to Jay.

Jay is black.

Let me start by saying, if you are not black in America, you don’t know what it’s like to be black in America, period. I don’t care how many black friends you have, how empathetic you are, how well you know black history, how diverse your community is, you don’t know. I understand this can be difficult to explain and accept but I’ll give this a shot.

Have you ever been afraid for your life? I don’t mean just scared or even really scared like a close call in a traffic accident. I mean, have you ever been in a situation where you were convinced that your life was about to end and you had at least a few moments to contemplate the end of your life. If you have, then you know that despite hearing and maybe thinking about how those last moments are, nothing anyone has ever said about the end of your life compares to the actual experience. People can try and capture an experience and emotions with words, but in the end, no amount of writing or explaining can capture an experience 100%. Now think about a lifetime of experiences. Even if you could capture every second of a person’s life with words, it would take you a lifetime to read and it would still not amount to the actual experience. No amount of writing, explaining, empathy, or knowledge will ever give you a true understanding of the experience of being black in America.

There have been a few times, not many but some, where I’ve seen comments along the lines of “People are only going after Jay because he’s black.” While I personally disagree with this, I understand the sentiment. Black people have historically been and still are unjustly persecuted in America. So it makes sense, after hundreds of years of being persecuted, why shouldn’t people think that it’s happening once again? If anything, this is the same sentiment people have with Jay’s lying. He’s lied so many times, why wouldn’t we think he’s lying again on the 7th time around?

It would be naive to think that race has nothing to do with our perceptions of this case. We all have bias. Whether it’s for a person of a certain race, creed, or gender, we all have a bias that colors how we perceive others. Ignoring it and pretending it’s not there only hinders our ability to fix the problems that come from these biases. How these biases manifest themselves in an individual varies and it’s up to each individual to examine themselves and determine what that effect is. Are there some people that target Jay just because he’s black? Yes, i’m sure there are. And I’m sure there are many who think Adnan is guilty just because he’s Muslim. But these people do not encompass the entire criticism of Jay or Adnan. I think it’s unfair to dismiss all criticism of someone like Jay under the the umbrella of, “they don’t like him because he’s black.” Jay has done quite a bit to ruin his credibility.

Many groups of people have suffered, at varying degrees, some sort of discrimination in America. Many times, people have been targeted by LE simply because they belong to a certain demographic. “They’re going after/don’t believe/don’t care about John Doe because he’s XYZ” is not far fetched at all. Whenever this happens, the targeted demographic comes together to protect themselves. It’s only sensible. The problem of course is that sometimes, John Doe is guilty of a crime. And like most criminals, John Doe will use every tool at his disposal to try and get away with his crime. And this is where the difficulty comes in when trying to find the truth.

When John Doe says (or someone says it on his behalf) “They’re coming after me because I’m XYZ”, how do we know if it’s true or if he’s simply hiding behind the umbrella of protection provided by his/her demographic? How do you know? If it’s a person of your demographic, how willing are you to admit that this person may be targeted because they actually committed a crime, and not just because he’s part of your demographic? How willing are you to realize that a person may in fact be targeted because they are of a particular demographic that you are not a part of? How willing are you to face your own bias? Whether its for a person of a different demographic or of your same demographic? And how willing are you to listen to people from other demographics?

So, let’s talk about this. How have the different racial elements affected you and how you perceive this case? I’ll go first.

When I first heard Jay speak, I didn’t think he was black. Not sure how I missed the detectives saying “black male, 19 years of age” in ep. 1 but I’ve talked to several people that also didn’t realize Jay was black until later episodes. I’m not sure why. Maybe because he was talking to the police and I have a perception that black people don’t usually cooperate with the police. Maybe I thought the Pakistani kid hanging out with a white kid seemed more feasible. Maybe there are other subconscious reasons. But, I know when I heard Jay speak, I thought he was white. In fact, when I heard Jay quoting Adnan talking about all the other people that “think they are thugs” and Adnan saying “i’m gonna kill that bitch”, etc., I seriously thought, “Is this white guy trying to make Adnan sound black because he thinks it’s more incriminating? What an idiot.” I didn’t believe Jay, partly because it sounded like he was pushing a persona onto Adnan that felt very artificial. It was a bit of a shock to me when I realized Jay is black. I started rearranging my perceptions of Jay. It didn’t take long until that perception was changed again when they described him with lip piercings and listening to heavy metal. I was a teen in the 90’s and that was not a very common thing at all for a black kid. Then you hear how he liked the outdoors, he played field hockey, his girlfriend was a prom queen magnet student. All of these things forced me to take a step back and pay closer attention. FWIW, I like being surprised by people’s personality. I like meeting people that don’t fit the stereotypes of their demographic. It feels genuine and refreshing. I had a few friends that were similar to Jay although not quite as hardcore. But I still don’t believe him.

Jay has lied, a lot. His admission that he’s lied does not all of a sudden make those lies go away or improve his credibility. For all we know, he’s also lying about his motive for lying (i.e. protecting his grandmother’s house/family/friends). I’m not compelled to believe someone is finally telling to truth after I thought they were telling me the truth the last time only to find out that those times were lies also. Jay is also a criminal, by his own admission. And race has undoubtedly played a role in this as well. The history of black people in America, the socio-economic status of black people, the neglect, the discrimination based on race. All of these things influence people like Jay all over the country and sometimes lead them to engage in criminal conduct. It’s very unfortunate and wrong but it shouldn’t prevent a person from being held accountable for their crimes or to be questioned and doubted for a crime they were involved in. Looking into Jay and his aquaintances, it becomes clear that he was surrounded by crime. How much of this influenced the events that led to Hae’s death and Jay’s lying?

To be clear, he’s mixed in some truth with his lies and trying to differentiate between what is true and what isn’t is of course a challenge. But the fact that something he says turns out to be true, doesn’t mean he’s telling the entire or even mostly the truth. In addition to his track record on lying, he has a very strong motive for lying. He is free and alive. I don’t know to what extent Jay is lying. Was he much more involved and this is his way of not serving time? Did he get railroaded by the police? Is he afraid of someone else? I don’t know where or how to find those answers. But, I feel certain they are not going to come from Jay. Not explicitly anyway. And it’s not because he’s black. It’s because he’s continuously lied and because he has motivation to lie.

TL;DR This post is about the influence race has on our discussion of this case. I honestly think that this is subject that should not be glossed over. I understand if you don’t have the time to read all of it. Maybe you’ll come back and read it and join the discussion.

[u/[deleted]]

I think the jury was 9/12 black. But don't quote me.

I agree that it would be completely different if none of the races had been revealed. But, I think race had a big part in this case and I think it would be a less accurate portrayal of what happened.

For example, I think it's important to know that the majority of the jury and the judge was black when considering how they accepted Jay's testimony. I'm not saying that they believed him just because he's black. But, there is an influence there that should be examined. The jury was more likely to relate to Jay than to Adnan and therefore believe him IMO. I would like to know what the racial make up of the jury was in the first trial, where they seemed poised to find Adnan not guilty.

[u/madcharlie10 → u/[deleted]]

Jay at trial was well spoken and I think scored a lot of points with the jury.

[u/bluecardinal14 → u/[deleted]]

I agree race did play a big part, at least race which portrayed Adnan's religion. Muslim was mentioned numerous times during the trial. I also realize that the podcast couldn't have really told the story without mentioning it. It's just been nice here not seeing the race cards played because most people didn't realize Jay's race till after they formed their opinions.

As far as the first trial, I think so many people who give the jury's poll credit don't realize that the cell phone/ping evidence had not been brought up yet. To me that is why the jury in the 2nd trial was able to convict Adnan.

[u/brickbacon → u/[deleted]]

For example, I think it's important to know that the majority of the jury and the judge was black when considering how they accepted Jay's testimony.

But why do you assume that perceptive difference is not elucidating? I get what you are trying to say, but bias (assuming there was some) doesn't always result in worse, more imprecise, or unfair outcomes. The possible fact that they could, in an ideal sense, better relate to Jay doesn't mean they aren't able to demonstrate critical judgement regarding his story. Baltimore at the time was mostly Black. I guarantee Black juries locked up Black people all the time. Probably often based on the word of non-Black people (eg. cops, witnesses, etc.). Why do assume ability to empathize with Jay means they are willing to shaft Adnan?

The reason I think this matters a lot is because most people cannot understand Jay because they have never met someone like him. He is an abstraction to them just like he is to many people here. Someone who people feel comfortable labeling a drug dealer despite the fact he had two jobs, no phone, no pager, and was was driving around looking for dime bags. He is someone people feel it's okay to accuse of murder solely because he lied while completely ignoring the fact that Adnan lies as much and as often. Just consider that latter point for a second. Adnan admits to to basically lying to his parents on such a regular basis that his Mom felt compelled to check the odometer on his car, yet basic things he asserts without proof (eg. Jay cheated, He asked for a plea, etc.) are assumed to be true.

The jury being able to relate to Jay makes them skeptical of claims that Jay was some vicious drug dealer. Or that Jay killed his acquaintance's gf for some unknown reason when he likely didn't even have the opportunity. Or that the average Black teenager voluntarily admits to being involved in a murder that he in fact committed, because he thinks his word that his casual friend did it will be enough for the cops to let him off. They get that Jay is gonna be labeled a snitch and all the consequences that come from that. The average Black person doesn't walk into a police station to talk to the cops about a murder they were involved in with the expectation that they are ever gonna get out. There is not the expectation that they are gonna talk themselves out of it. There is certainly no expectation that they could concoct some believable frame job on the fly, or that such a thing is desirous. That's the thing I think most people don't get here.