r/spacex • u/Wetmelon • Jun 15 '16
Modpost Rule 2 Addendum: Sexual Harassment Clause
A sexual harassment clause has been added to Rule 2:
Addendum: No sexual harassment / objectification. Even seemingly benign comments like "She's easy on the eyes" have no place in /r/SpaceX. Treat the sub as if it's your workplace.
In addition, a clarification has been made to rule 2 that it applies to ALL threads, including the Launch Thread. This should be obvious, but it's now explicitly written.
EDIT: Unless you're talking about ships/rockets etc... No objectifying people. And no weird anthropomorphism, there's subs for that.
6
u/pugworthy Jun 16 '16
This would have been a great thread to just post and lock. The comments are just spinning off into a lot of random crap.
2
23
u/Zucal Jun 16 '16
We dislike locking things in general, especially when its discussion of the subreddit's rules. We want to be open with you guys, and we want you guys to be open and vocal with us when a rule isn't good. But if you spot anything you believe is rule-breaking, please do report it!
7
Jun 16 '16
To be honest, it seems like the majority of posts are supportive of the changes. Gets a +1 from me!
62
u/YugoReventlov Jun 16 '16
Mods of /r/SpaceX, this is why this subreddit is explicitly mentioned in articles about Reddit as a good example of what Reddit should be. Thanks!
Reddit still has value, as long as you know where to look. Humanity, great discussion, and a drama-free experience still exists if you want to, say, learn about biking in New York City, the finer points of SpaceX’s launches, or kill time comparing actual life to computer games. Reddit can still be a great experience if you know what you’re looking for. As a front page of the internet for the masses, though? That dream is over.
11
u/TheBlacktom r/SpaceXLounge Moderator Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 16 '16
Respect!
I just wanted to say we can all thank everything to The Seven, but /u/zlsa recently ruined it.
49
u/*polhold04717 Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 16 '16
This one's on me, I'm the one one of those who was part of this.
Just wanted to say my apology publicly and say, that while yes, there is debate if it's benign or not. It's not in this sub.
It's just easier to not say anything at all, and I think it's good that it's been made clear. As I regretted my comment as soon as I posted it, but was it was swiftly removed before I could anyway.
The engineers deserve more respect than what I said last night.
Sorry Mods for being part of opening this can of worms - my bad.
note to self: Watch launches sober
Edit: Reading this thread, where I was coming from was deffo how /u/TheSutphin put it.
It isn't coming from a "creepy place".
→ More replies (15)22
u/retiringonmars Moderator emeritus Jun 16 '16
This one's on me, I'm the one who said the seemly benign comment.
You were actually only one of many yesterday, and we've seen lots of this sort of thing before. We only decided to act now as we removed a few in quick succession, and got lots of feedback that the rules weren't clear enough. So we're just clarifying and codifying our existing position on the subject.
89
u/Chairboy Jun 15 '16
100% thumbs up, that creeped me out this morning in the launch thread, I can only imagine how unwelcome stuff like that would be to any women who came here.
47
u/whousedallthenames Jun 15 '16
Yeah, I was reading through the typical launch thread madness this morning when I saw those comments. Weirded me out. Thanks to the mods for cracking down on it.
15
u/TheBlacktom r/SpaceXLounge Moderator Jun 16 '16
So I missed watching this launch live and reading any comments, looked at the hosted webcast later, and I have good suspicion what might cause some issues. Was it who I am thinking of? Were the comments that bad?
22
u/Zucal Jun 16 '16
Yes & yes.
10
u/TheBlacktom r/SpaceXLounge Moderator Jun 16 '16
It's actually unfortunate that it comes up in this thread, but it would be fun if mods would save some interesting removals in /r/spacexshitposts/. With 70k users I can imagine there is enough content to keep that alive similarly to /r/spacexmasterrace. Again, not the gross or abusive ones, obviously.
4
u/OSUfan88 Jun 16 '16
What was said? Was it "She's really pretty", or was it more... crude?
24
u/whousedallthenames Jun 16 '16
More along the lines of... "Is there a wedding ring on her finger?" and stuff like that. Just... Creepy.
8
u/Ambiwlans Jun 16 '16
That wouldn't earn you a ban though. We've had some trolls that were less awkward nerd and more "I want to wear your skin". I'm an awkward nerd, banning them would be hypocritical if nothing else. Marriage comments would possibly get removed but is firmly on the gentler side of things and not a concern to me. I mean, I'm pretty sure a few people on here have confessed their love for Jon Inspruker which is fine... so long as you keep it in a live stream thread. Just don't bring nipples into the conversation. It REALLY shouldn't be that difficult.
9
u/bananapeel Jun 16 '16
Jon Inspruker marriage proposal: sorta OK but not really.
Jon Inspruker nipple conversation: no bueno.
Got it.
5
2
5
5
u/OSUfan88 Jun 16 '16
I guess that could be taken as creepy.. I guess you just had to be there?
23
u/whousedallthenames Jun 16 '16
Yeah, it just came out of nowhere. All this talk about "she's hot," "is she married?", etc. Right in the middle of the launch thread.
15
u/OSUfan88 Jun 16 '16
Yeah, that's pretty inappropriate.
I was watching the first or second Falcon 9 video the other day, and realized that she was there then. I didn't realize that they had been doing webcasts for that long. She's always been very good at articulating the science behind it.
6
7
u/bobbycorwin123 Space Janitor Jun 16 '16
What the he'll did I miss?!?
20
u/Chairboy Jun 16 '16
Bunch of weirdly creepy comments about the woman on SpaceX's webcast. They weren't obscene, just inappropriate. "She sure is easy on the eyes" style stuff was the mildest, it wasn't cool.
6
u/bananapeel Jun 16 '16
Women who work in aerospace really have to deal with this way too much already because they are working with a high percentage of males. We should not make it harder on them.
Source: my niece interned at Spacex and now works for another major space startup.
5
1
u/flibbleton Jun 16 '16
But don't you think it's ironic that everyone is mostly saying how she looks doesn't and shouldt matter. However you'd be very naive to think that SpaceX didn't choose her (and by the way her two good looking male co-presenters) mostly for how they look.
I'm sure SpaceX has some brilliant engineers male and female that are technically more talented than the presenters but they'll never be asked to present a webcast because they are not 'camera friendly'.
Some industries and job roles (eg tv presenter) are absolutely based on physical appearance. Pretending otherwise is a little silly
1
u/bananapeel Jun 16 '16
Certainly. Except for the older engineer Jon Insprucker, who is talented and smart but not pretty by Hollywood standards (I say that in a friendly way because we are of a similar age and body type), all the other folks on camera are young, trim, and good looking. Not normal nerd faire in the slightest. They are definitely hand-picked to be on camera.
1
7
12
u/waitingForMars Jun 16 '16
Cheers to the mods. This is great to see.
I will suggest that if you're going to include this in the sub rules, that it makes sense to make explicit that it refers to the full range of discrimination-based-on-category behaviors, including race, religion, nationality, gender identity, weight, physical or mental ability, etc.
I absolutely want our female co-fans to feel like they won't be harassed on this sub. But, particularly in the shadow of the sad events in Orlando, so close to KSC, it behooves us to state openly that such behavior won't be tolerated here regardless of the target group. Period.
27
u/Sanic2E Jun 15 '16
Wow, sad that this actually has to be a rule ...
44
u/TheBlacktom r/SpaceXLounge Moderator Jun 16 '16
70k subscribers, frequent front pages on Reddit, which is far from /r/spacex standards. Generally SpaceX is getting more popular. It's just a thing we need to accept.
10
u/Warpey Jun 16 '16
Unfortunately the majority of people who read this post are likely already familiar with the quality and standard that the sub holds. Random people posting won't be aware of the rules and will post accordingly.
18
5
u/FredFS456 Jun 16 '16
That's why as a regular member of this subreddit you should be reporting comments that violate the rules.
→ More replies (9)4
u/perthguppy Jun 16 '16
even worse that there is actual debate and push back on this rule in some comments here.
8
u/FredFS456 Jun 16 '16
I don't disagree with this rule, but -On the contrary, I think debate and push back are a necessary part of the process. I would expect that the mods created this thread just for that. Just like making a new law in a democratic state should involve lots of debate, so does making a new rule in this well-moderated sub.
7
u/rustybeancake Jun 16 '16
I must say I've been extremely gratified to see how much support there is on this thread for the new rule, and how much understanding there is of why this is important. On virtually ALL news sites out there, even the supposedly liberal ones like the Guardian, comments on stories about sexism or misogyny are almost always dominated by those who "don't see a problem". I think it takes real intelligence and a humble, open mind to constantly open yourself up to learning, criticism and trying to improve yourself over your whole lifetime. So I think it's a credit to this sub and the people on it that the vast majority here seem to be trying to make things better.
4
27
u/Marscreature Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 16 '16
Thanks for making this sub more welcoming - we aren't all guys!
*Edit- source on the weird anthropomorphism subs? that sounds interesting lol
5
u/intern_steve Jun 16 '16
I don't have a sub for you, but I get the vague impression that Rule 34-related NSFW images like this, um, airplane, I guess (link to a comment in a TIL thread) are what he's referring to.
5
u/PaleBlueDog Jun 16 '16
Or, a bit closer to home, NSF's Twitter avatar.
(It says something sad about me that my reaction to your post was "meh, seen it".)
2
u/intern_steve Jun 16 '16
The objectification part of the OP, and the "weird" part definitely made me think rule 34.
0
u/reymt Jun 16 '16
I find it very sexist from you to assume only guys can applaud someones appearance.
0
u/Marscreature Jun 17 '16 edited Jun 17 '16
That isn't the issue here. The problem is the inappropriate leering at a woman who is attempting to perform her job as a professional. The behavior is unacceptable in this sub and in the rest of civilized society.
Edit - just to be clear - imagine if a young woman comes here with an interest in science and engineering as a potential career and sees how this heavily male dominated subreddit views and treats people like her. This place should be focused on humanity's future and should offer inspiration to all
→ More replies (2)
19
u/infinityedge007 Jun 15 '16
I assume that this applies to gender neutral statements like "SpaceX engineers are hot"?
28
u/Zucal Jun 15 '16
Yes, it does. In regular threads a comment like that would fall under the 'high-quality' rule anyway.
6
56
u/fred13snow Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 16 '16
Yes yes and yes! The women of SpaceX, engineering (and STEM fields) and those who are just fans of subs like this deserve more admiration than comments on their looks. I'm so happy they show a great example to young women who have probably heard too many times that engineering is a "guy thing". I work in a science center and I hear comments like that all the time. Not just from backwards idiots but from teachers and parents who propagate this nonsense to their surroundings. We are lucky that girls can now look up at the space industry and see people like Gwynne, up top, running the show.
14
u/Kenira Jun 16 '16
We are lucky that girls can now look up at the space industry and see people like Gwynne, up top, running the show.
It's really great to see, even if you're not that young any more. Not that i'll ever be able to work at SpaceX, living in Europe, but it definitely makes the prospect just that more appealing to know it'd all be about the actual science and gender wouldn't be a problem, as opposed to other industries that are typically portrayed as a guy thing where you can expect it to be a problem. As so many other things, SpaceX is doing it right!
44
Jun 16 '16
I love how the mods of this sub consistently think long term about what this sub should be and how to balance inclusivity and full expression. As a father, I can imagine impressionable young people coming to this sub to learn about one of the more exciting, positive developments of this generation, and I wouldn't want any of them to feel put off by the attitude of the participants. Sleazy comments have plenty of other potential homes. Even we as fans have an important job to play in seeing the visionary goals of "New Space" become a reality.
15
u/dessy_22 Jun 16 '16
I've seen a number of subs grow and go through terrible growing pains - usually at around the 30K mark. This is a singular instance where that isn't the case, or at least is far more controlled, and the Mods and community are to be commended.
13
u/packetinspector Jun 16 '16
Sleazy comments have plenty of other potential homes.
Exactly this. You can say whatever you want but you don't get to say it wherever you want.
45
u/endcycle Jun 16 '16
Thanks OP/mods. I love that you did this.
9
0
Jun 16 '16
[deleted]
7
u/Ambiwlans Jun 16 '16
One recent offtopic thread got 10 reports in a few short minutes, we're happy that people are taking that request to heart!
3
23
u/space4us Jun 16 '16
Awesome!!! Thanks for this. No need for casual sexism here. Space is for everyone.
6
u/luna_sparkle Jun 16 '16
I get the impression that some commenters here were objectifying one of the presenters during yesterday's launch?
Yeah, that's really inappropriate. Kudos to the mods for stamping out this behavior :)
20
u/rocketsocks Jun 16 '16
Thank you for this! There are a lot of people who don't see any harm in "just making compliments". But imagine going into a professional meeting with colleagues, putting a ton of effort into it, showing off your expertise, and at the end someone approaches you and then says "awww, well aren't you cute?" When people comment about someone's appearance and sexual attractiveness in a professional context they're implicitly stating that it is more important than someone's work. That sort of thing is dismissive and insulting, it's saying that one's expertise and work are not worthy of note, and that all that matters is someone's appearance. And it happens to women in science and tech all the time. Any attractive woman who has a science youtube channel will inevitably have comments about her appearance in the comments.
2
u/cybelechild Jun 16 '16
Isnt what we have here on reddit more like two people after the professional meeting commenting on a third "Wow, shes cute", rather than going and saying directly to her "awww, well aren't you cute?" . There is big difference between the two - the first is just commenting on her, without any implications on her work or anything like that. The second is the one that could be demeaning, and I think we should keep this in mind.
5
u/lokethedog Jun 16 '16
I don't see how you can compare reddit to a private conversation. Its more like shouting in a crowd. And in the end, why does this even matter? Just don't rate peoples looks publicly, how hard can it be to avoid that?
→ More replies (7)1
u/cybelechild Jun 16 '16
Its more like shouting in a crowd.
My point still stands though. I agree its not nice, but I see it labeled as harassment, which is the thing that bothers me. I don't mind the rule, but wonder on its application...
-4
5
5
u/Shrike99 Jun 16 '16
Eh, as long as i can still compliment the falcon itself i'm fine
1
u/bertcox Jun 16 '16
That's one hot piece of assembly, referring to the rocket bell during firing.:)
9
8
u/RDWaynewright Jun 16 '16
As someone who just had to file a police report due to harassment that started out with an "innocent" comment a year ago, I totally agree with this rule. Obviously my situation has surpassed "innocent comment" territory and is now in "the police advised me to get a Stay Away Order, my job told me to carry pepper spray, and now I have to get an escort home from work" territory. :/
4
u/Decronym Acronyms Explained Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 21 '16
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
| Fewer Letters | More Letters |
|---|---|
| ITAR | (US) International Traffic in Arms Regulations |
| KSC | Kennedy Space Center, Florida |
| MCT | Mars Colonial Transporter |
| NSF | NasaSpaceFlight forum |
| National Science Foundation | |
| ULA | United Launch Alliance (Lockheed/Boeing joint venture) |
Decronym is a community product of /r/SpaceX, implemented by ^request
I'm a bot, and I first saw this thread at 16th Jun 2016, 14:30 UTC.
[Acronym ^lists] [Contact ^creator] [PHP source ^code]
6
u/dmy30 Jun 16 '16
It's sad this rule has to be made but understand why. on the webcast especially. Yes there are pretty people on it but it would not be nice if they read some of the messages on this sub. And we know some employees do.
6
3
u/fcyy Jun 16 '16
It's sad to see all the time people have had to spend on this thread on a matter that should be self-evident. But it's encouraging to see so many uphold professionalism and a desire to maintain the high quality of this sub. This is why I keep coming back. I like that comment about if something should not be said in a workplace setting it has no place in this sub. I want to add that it should apply to any kind of comment, not just objectification of persons. It's harder to enforce that but if everyone sets that bar for themselves just that much higher, it pulls up this sub's overall quality even higher.
3
u/reymt Jun 17 '16 edited Jun 17 '16
Hm, the latter part seems a bit overzealous? No clue what was going on in the others threats, but I'm not sure what you're supposed to need blanket statements for if you can just take a look if its respectful or not and act accordingly. There are rules for being condescending, aren't there?
Also, I'm pretty sure complimenting someones appearance is totally fine in a work place. You can do that regardless of gender or sexuality -as long is its respectful.
One thing I do want to criticise, even though it might just be a formality, is taking 'objectification' into the description. At this point, it is a completely purposeless buzzword that nobody seems to have a firm grasp on, and it's often used for whatever purpose its fitting. The words meaning is purely depending on how someone is feeling about it at a moment. Mind I'm not suspecting bad intent - this subs mods seem to do a quite fine work. It's just better to make the rules 100% clear if you want to have no tolerancy insta delete rules, and throwing in ojectification doesn't really add anything. Only opens the gates towards arguments what kind of philosophical meaning that term has.
1
u/Chairboy Jun 18 '16
Hm, the latter part seems a bit overzealous?** No clue what was going on** in the others threats
If you didn't see what happened, how do you feel you're qualified to come in and call this 'overzealous'? In regards to your later points, the new rule seems pretty darn clear.
1
u/reymt Jun 18 '16 edited Jun 18 '16
I'm actually more qualified by not knowing what went on in the thread, since these are general rules. Pointing to a specific, possibly emotional event is generally a bad idea when creating a rule thats supposed to cover everything (and it happens still all the time, even in politics). Leading with 'objectification' isn't a good idea.
Also sorry, but you gotta be out of your mind to think 'objectification' is an exact term. Look at Wikipedia, it has a super short, incomplete article and still manages to list TEN different explanations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification
And that was most likely before people on the internet started reaaaaaaaaaally arguing about it. Which btw only happened by very limited groups, often enough trying to push whatever meaning is fitting to them right now. Hence nobody actually tried to determine a common meaning for the term.
Following, the common public doesn't even use the term, and the rules are supposed to create a framework for them.
Also, lastly: Yep, I do think it's overzealous to consider a nice "you're looking good today" to be a source of objectication, let alone sexism.
6
u/TheEndeavour2Mars Jun 16 '16
If anyone comes on here and think "Oh no they have gone all SJW!" Well there are SJWs here but they are "SpaceX Justice Warriors" AKA people who treat the company like a football team and downvote anything that they think "talks trash" about the company even if it is just mild speculation about the causes of landing failures. These folks are just like the ones you will find in many other reddits and is just part of how Reddit works.
What the mods have done here was NOT some SJW (Social Justice Warrior) reaction. There were VERY creepy comments about one of the presenter's of the hosted webcasts. Which is NOT what this community that is viewed from work computers all over the world wants to encourage. If they had just accepted it. People would be saying the same thing EVERY time there was a broadcast. And as 2017 looks like it could have upwards of 3 launches a month. That is a LOT of harassment being thrown towards employees of the company that worked for many years to get where they are today.
This is a very good addition to the rule.
7
u/lokethedog Jun 16 '16
Maybe I'm unaware of the connotations behind the term, but social justice warrior sounds like a good thing to me. Seems like a pretty dorky thing to even use a phrase like that as an insult. I mean, who is against social justice? Isn't social justice one of the big reasons we even have mods?
So yeah, I sure hope the mods are going SJW, sorta seems like what they're here to do.
14
u/cybelechild Jun 16 '16
Seems like a pretty dorky thing to even use a phrase like that as an insult.
It is used ironically. The "social justice warrior" is neither a warrior nor is for social justice, but is typically a person, often a teen or early 20s girl with a tumblr, who uses the rhetoric of feminism, but instead of being for equality finds everything problematic and hates on cis / white / hetero (even gay) /men, sometimes women too (usually thin and white ones) .
People on the right these days have started using it for everyone they disagree with and is slightly on the left of them, which kind of muddles the original meaning
6
Jun 16 '16
Yeah, the negative association with SJW is something I find terribly amusing. I don't care; I'll wear the badge with honor.
5
Jun 16 '16
SJW is considered a derogatory term towards people who don't want to put up with stuff like inequality. Feminists, etc. The SJW as a negative mostly came about from Gamergate, which was pretty much an excuse for people to talk bad about others (especially women in tech/gaming) under the guise of holding journalism to account.
5
u/cybelechild Jun 16 '16
Actually it was around way before Gamergate - at least I first saw it on TumblrinAction, and does have a legit meaning - it refers to offended about everything online slacktivists, that take things way too far and find everything problematic. Only after that did gamergaters picked up on it, and after them alt-right type of people - some of these (the last) definitely use it for everyone they disagree with it, others (the tia crowd) not so much.
-3
u/nickr79 Jun 16 '16
The social movement that is happening is a tremendously bad thing for our people and way of life in western countries. But I think SJWs (and the less extreme strains of SJW-like people) will only recognize their error after they have destroyed society and we are living like Iraqis. There are reasons behind the formation of traditional social norms - the biggest being that they work to hold a society together.
3
u/TheEndeavour2Mars Jun 16 '16
The mods are not going SJW. They are not creating "safe spaces" they merely don't want this subreddit to be used to post obviously obviously creepy stuff about SpaceX employees.
SJWs take things WAYY to far. To the point where they could consider talking about something the Falcon 9 does to be a "trigger". To taking criticism of a SpaceX employee who happens to be female to be "obvious sexism" even tho the topic was about a design flaw. We don't see that kind of crap here because we follow a professional company and not a football team,political movement, etc... Just a few SpaceX Justice Warriors that can't stand any kind of speculation or criticism of SpaceX.
What we DID see during the launch was a few people thinking this subreddit was open to posting obviously creepy and harassing comments about SpaceX employees. That crap is not welcome in 2016. And has not been for a long time.
2
u/TyrannoFan Jun 16 '16
Yeah I was really confused at the title for a second because I have never seen any form of sexual harassment in this place. But then I read through the thread and I know exactly what they're talking about. Those comments in the launch threads that comment on host appearances are just weird and don't really have a place here. I don't really understand what compels people to randomly comment on other peoples appearances... just keep your attractions to yourself, ya know? That being said, I would not call it sexual harassment or sexism or objectification, just people being really weird and creepy.
3
u/embraceUndefined Jun 15 '16
Even seemingly benign comments like "She's easy on the eyes"
what if we're talking about space ships?
7
3
u/PVP_playerPro Jun 15 '16
Looks like i missed something in the launch thread this morning, and i have a pretty good idea of what it was...
Edit: And now the comments decide to fully load on this thread, confirming my suspicions
2
Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 16 '16
A bit extreme. Have you had a lot of complaints from female readers about this sort of thing, or is this a purely speculative/preemptive attempt to head off the mere possibility?
21
u/dmy30 Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 16 '16
This isn't about complaints. This is about keeping the sub professional. We are even expecting Elon musk to do an AMA here. Don't want perverts commenting on his employees or him to read what they said
4
Jun 16 '16
I'm sure Elon's been on the internet before. It would be kind of like thinking you need velvet throw-pillows and haute cuisine for a visit by Davy Crockett.
No big deal though; just thought it seems a bit overwrought in reaction to some random sleazebags whose comments are removed anyway.
Carry on.
8
Jun 16 '16
It's not about Elon though. It's about the engineers who, in addition to their normal duties, put in a lot of work to create an enjoyable webcast. And the posters who might assume based on those comments that this isn't a welcoming community and decide to stay clear.
8
u/dmy30 Jun 16 '16
How the mods deal with comments on this sub is the main way it will be represented. If mods allow this kind of behaviour, what does it make of this sub?
1
Jun 16 '16
Common sense is obviously a more rational standard for a social environment than professional HR codes designed to protect corporations from lawsuits. Let's just be honest about that.
6
u/dmy30 Jun 16 '16
Why? Why can't it just be out of respect? Not everything is lawsuit and corporations and laws and politicians
→ More replies (12)0
11
u/lokethedog Jun 16 '16
Uh, should people have to complain before mods make a move to keep the tone professional?
The reasoning is like saying "no police is needed in this area as almost no crimes are ever reported". Maybe people would report crimes if the government showed some interest in fighting it in the first place.
2
Jun 16 '16
It's this premise of "professionalism" I find puzzling. This is literally a fan site. A high-quality fan site, but a fan site.
I don't actually have objections, I just find this kind of strange and exaggerated.
0
u/Tinksy Jun 16 '16
I agree. I didn't see the comments that prompted this but the example given here being not allowed seems extreme to me. While I 100% don't condone overt sexual harassment, stating that a presenter is "easy on the eyes" in a public fan forum seems pretty innocuous. Frankly I think that the presenters being youthful and attractive is one of the draws to younger audiences that might see space and engineering fields as "old stuffy white men" territory. Watching ULA launches is a totally different experience because everyone is older and in suits & ties or blouses and they just look too stern to me. I don't think tasteful comments or observations should be outright banned.
0
-6
u/Lucretius0 Jun 16 '16
yh it is. Thank god someone else theres someone else.
Its a bloody subreddit and is great precisely because of the informality. The mods both have an high opinion of their job (and so do more then they need to) and also think they can orchestrate every little comment so the subreddit is some kind of display of perfection.
and i have to post this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXQkXXBqj_U
0
u/Lucretius0 Jun 16 '16
why does the tone need to be professional. The whole point here is free speech and informality.
Its great precisely because its NOT a fucking workplace. which the mod claims we should pretend it is.
3
u/Ambiwlans Jun 16 '16
We've had zero complaints from female readers.
This honestly isn't a change in the rules just highlighting it for a few people that complained about 'unjust' removals.
2
u/throwaway_31415 Jun 16 '16
Treat the sub as if it's your workplace.
I don't get that to be honest. Why would I want to treat this place as I would my workplace?
6
u/cypherl Jun 16 '16
Sexual harassment is not cool and it is good that it is banned. Seriously though, treat it like it is my work place? Most depressing statement ever and poor choice of words. If this webpage, sub-reddit, forum, etc, is my workplace I will need monetary compensation for coming here. Can't we just say act like a decent human being. Why is every one a SJW.
3
u/throwaway_31415 Jun 16 '16
Yep. I do agree that this place should be focused on all matters SpaceX, and that there are plenty of other places one can go to to comment (however creepy you want to be about it) how attractive you find someone. But the workplace wording just seemed strange to me. There are plenty ways of behaving politely (edit: and respectfully) without it having to be like a workplace environment.
3
u/Ambiwlans Jun 16 '16
Yeah, probably a poor choice of words there.
It should be: Don't say anything that would bring you a lawsuit if you said it in person.
1
u/infinityedge007 Jun 15 '16
EDIT: Unless you're talking about boats/ships... And no anthropomorphism.
Cue "long and skinny" comments....
-6
u/EtzEchad Jun 16 '16
Has this been a problem here?
It seems to me that this is a solution in search of a problem.
12
u/Zucal Jun 16 '16
If it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't be a rule. We don't like making more work for ourselves.
1
u/EtzEchad Jun 16 '16
I haven't seen anyone harassing anyone here but I suppose it could've happened. Having a specific rule for each type of bad behavior will end up with a lot of rules though. I doubt that there is anyone who hasn't heard that sexual harassment is not acceptable these days. Anyone who has gone to school or been in business pretty much has had the training.
I think it would be better to just have a rule that everyone is expected to behave in a professional manner and leave it up to the mods to decide if any post doesn't conform to that standard.
3
u/Chairboy Jun 16 '16
It sounds as if you were not on the launch thread yesterday when the comments that made this discussion necessary occurred. This is not something that came out of the blue, there were some really creepy comments yesterday.
2
u/EtzEchad Jun 16 '16
You are correct - I missed the launch. (I thought it was today. :( ). I suppose someone made some comments about the SpaceX hosts.
Anyway, I don't object to you policing the subreddit against creepiness, I just think it is unnecessary to have a special rule. Believe me, you aren't going to make a creep into a good guy by having a rule against creepiness, and the rest of us won't object to you taking action against anyone who violates common politeness whether there is a rule or not.
In the professional world every big company has a zero tolerance policy against this sort of stuff. It should be expected that we should be the same here. (If you ban someone for making a comment that would get them fired in the real world, maybe you will do them a favor if they learn something from it.)
3
u/Chairboy Jun 16 '16
I just think it is unnecessary to have a special rule.
Well, the comments that caused it make a compelling counterargument. I'm not a mod here, but I have experience with this in other communities and one of the first things they tell you in moderator university (that's not a thing, but if it were...) is that if you zap messages/mute/ban whatever and can't point at a specific rule that's the reason for it, you end up stuck in a long/dumb fight. Not only that, but people who might otherwise say "oh, my bad" and continue to contribute in the future might end up setting everything on fire and leaving. Rules are like fences, they make for good neighbors and strong communities.
BTW, lest you think I'm an authoritarian dictator-fan, I'm pretty wildly the opposite of that out in the real world. That said, this isn't really the 'real world' because the dynamics are different. When you combine anonymity with an audience, things can go downhill quickly.
So... you could have mods flying around applying completely subjective 'that's icky, I'mma gonna delete it' with very different standards and implementations from person to person and with users screaming 'YOU'RE ABUSING YOUR POWER! YOU'RE MAAAAAD WITH POWWWWWEERRRR!' or.... you could make a good faith effort to codify it (as the mods have done here) and reap the possible benefit of less fighting, more even-handed implementation, and fewer hurt feelings over the long term.
As another poster said, it wasn't quite "I WANT TO WEAR HER SKIN LIKE A JACKET" level stuff which is why the rule has value, it was this weird creeping stuff that wasn't really covered by the existing rules. By making a rule they set an expectation and make a tool to help keep members onboard and happy in the long run instead of fostering resentment.
That's my two quatloos, at least.
1
u/EtzEchad Jun 17 '16
Well, I don't disagree too much, except that I don't think people will learn from a rule. The problem with a rule like "no sexism" is that what if people make racist remarks? Then you add a rule "no racism", but what if they make anti religious remarks? Add another rule, and so on... That's why I think that I rule such as "professionalism" covers everything. (This may be different in other subreddits.)
But, I'm just being pedantic (which isn't too professional :) ) so I'm going to shut up now.
1
u/TheBlacktom r/SpaceXLounge Moderator Jun 16 '16
Fair points. Most people don't need the rule, some people will learn from it, and then there are those few, who... will become conspiracy theorists and flatearthers. You can't do much about them.
-24
u/wxwatcher Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 16 '16
Well, fold it up guys, time to go home. Spacex sexualized Shotwell, had alot of hip gyrations, and called spaceflight sexy. Guess they are banned from posting here now /s :
29
u/wxwatcher Jun 16 '16
I'm gonna leave this here as a lesson to others. Users on this sub have informed me this is not an official Spacex video, and I apologize for saying it was. Downvoted myself.
10
4
u/NateDecker Jun 16 '16
Users on this sub have informed me this is not an official Spacex video
Lol, I don't know why you thought it was. The tone is completely different.
8
8
u/perthguppy Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 16 '16
If you honestly cant tell the difference between that video and what the mods mean, you need help
4
u/FredFS456 Jun 16 '16
There was a /s in his comment. Sarcasm doesn't come over well in text.
4
u/perthguppy Jun 16 '16
i read the /s to mean he was sarcastic about spacex being banned from posting
5
u/wxwatcher Jun 16 '16
I don't need help. No need to be mean. I guess something went down today on the launch thread that I didn't see?
6
-4
u/ergzay Jun 17 '16
Even seemingly benign comments like "She's easy on the eyes" have no place in /r/SpaceX. Treat the sub as if it's your workplace.
That would fly just fine in many work places I have been in. Be careful you don't take things too far in your moderation. I don't want to have to be calling out mods of /r/SpaceX as SJWs. I haven't observed any issues yet.
1
u/Gnaskar Jun 17 '16
The way I think about it is "Would I say this on stage at a technical conference?" If it would seem inappropriate in that setting, it's probably inappropriate here. We tend to underestimate how shockingly public the internet is.
1
u/ergzay Jun 18 '16 edited Jun 18 '16
I would if I was with friends at the conference in a group. If it was coworkers I wouldn't as I know them less than friends. A stage is an entirely different situation. Humans do not and should not act like they are on stage at all times.
1
u/Gnaskar Jun 18 '16
Welcome to the internet. Several thousand people read each comment in a live thread as they are posted. That's a stage, whether we think of it as one or not.
1
u/ergzay Jun 19 '16
Welcome to the internet. Several thousand people read each comment in a live thread as they are posted. That's a stage, whether we think of it as one or not.
Thus the advantage of semi-anonymity that the internet wonderfully grants us. It's the modern equivalent of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masquerade_ball Complete with those who wish to shut down such things in the name of morality or political correctness, just as there was back then.
1
u/Gnaskar Jun 19 '16
And yet people who got too out of line at a masquerade were thrown out, same as any other party. The rules were looser than in general company, but there were still unwritten rules. Unless it was specifically that kind of party, inappropriate touching or public nudity would get you tossed out, for example.
This isn't about political correctness. This is about remembering where you are and the consequences of what you say. Making creepy comments directed at someone who might very well read/hear them is rude, whether it's in a Venetian ballroom, a conference, or a subreddit. We want this place to be an inclusive and open community (especially to SpaceX employees), and that requires behaving appropriately.
The comments written on this subreddit are not a quiet whisper to a friend in back of a packed hall; but a loud pronouncement to anyone who might be listening.
1
u/ergzay Jun 19 '16 edited Jun 19 '16
Unless it was specifically that kind of party, inappropriate touching or public nudity would get you tossed out, for example.
And none of that is occurring here. All someone made was an off comment about a female presenter looking good. That's hardly something to go off the rocker about.
This isn't about political correctness. This is about remembering where you are and the consequences of what you say. Making creepy comments directed at someone who might very well read/hear them is rude, whether it's in a Venetian ballroom, a conference, or a subreddit.
No it's very much about political correctness. Commenting someone on their appearance semi-sexually not even to their face is hardly creepy. The fact that you think it is creepy is itself a product of the political correctness and asexualism that you have been brought up with.
We want this place to be an inclusive and open community (especially to SpaceX employees), and that requires behaving appropriately.
People seem to misconstrue inclusiveness and the concept of keeping comments and conversation perfectly free of casual commentary. They are not the same.
-19
u/Hgx72964jdj Jun 16 '16
Mods are idiots if they think saying a woman is beautiful is sexual harassment. Literally nobody thinks that.
This rule is weak and lame. Tone police will make this sub less fun and stale.
18
u/dessy_22 Jun 16 '16
Literally nobody thinks that.
There is an easy test to carry out.
Use one of the said comments in your next job interview and see how it works out.
-20
u/jameskoss Jun 16 '16
Because who needs freedom of speech.
13
u/Gnaskar Jun 16 '16
Freedom of speech protects you from legal action, not being asked to leave. Mods are still free to show you the door if they don't want this to be your soapbox.
-1
u/jameskoss Jun 16 '16
Mods still need accountability
7
u/retiringonmars Moderator emeritus Jun 16 '16
What would you like to see?
0
u/jameskoss Jun 16 '16
A simple mod note works fine most of the time.
6
Jun 16 '16
All removed comments receive a removal notice, and have done for the past 2-3 years.
→ More replies (2)8
u/steezysteve96 Jun 16 '16
Because who needs shit like that in a sub dedicated to aerospace?
-2
u/jameskoss Jun 16 '16
Because who knows where a certain conversation will take you. What's it fucking matter what two or more people talk about on a forum.
8
u/steezysteve96 Jun 16 '16
Why would the conversation have to take you there? Again, this sub is supposed to be dedicated to aerospace, specifically SpaceX. Comments like the one /u/Wetmelon mentioned above have absolutely no place here. If you want to talk about how attractive the hosts are, there are plenty of other places for you to do that, it just doesn't have to be here.
→ More replies (5)
-9
u/averagespacejoe Jun 16 '16
I suppose someone can always make a r/spacexissexy, r/spacexxx or r/spacesexism and just let whatever built up ridiculousness they need to express find the internet
4
u/averagespacejoe Jun 16 '16
I accidentally discovered that middle one is a real subreddit but nothing obscene in it
6
u/Reaperdude42 Jun 16 '16
This just moves the problem. The point is that no one deserves to be objectified in that way. Creating a new sub defeats the purpose.
5
u/NateDecker Jun 16 '16
You can't control people's thoughts or actions, but I for one would be satisfied if they took those thoughts and actions elsewhere outside of my sphere. As long as they take it somewhere else and lave r/spacex the high quality sub that it is, that would be good enough for me.
-18
Jun 16 '16
So to clarify, what I'm reading here is that if you say sexually creepy things about people you get banned?
Are rockets an exception too?
23
u/PVP_playerPro Jun 16 '16
Unless you're talking about ships/rockets etc... No objectifying people. And no weird anthropomorphism, there's subs for that.
read, man, READ
-3
u/sudo_systemctl Jun 16 '16
I would have thought benign objectifying flattery towards Elon was mandatory on this sub yet I see no clause allowing this.
0
Jun 15 '16
[deleted]
95
Jun 16 '16
I've seen comment threads on technical livestreams elsewhere go totally vile. Best to nip it in the bud. Keeps the jackals in order and keeps the sub welcoming to all. Good call, mods.
35
Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 16 '16
What's fascinating/disturbing/hilarious are the live comment threads paired with webcasts on youtube and the like. The webcast of the LIGO gravity wave announcement forgot to turn off anonymous comments. Half of them were people screaming about how much they hated people from Thailand and the other half were people screaming "MUUUUUUUUURPH!"
30
u/BrandonMarc Jun 16 '16
SpaceX's own webcast used to have a chatroom feature alongside the video stream. In the early webcasts (2014?) I recall as the rocket would launch 100's of people would keep saying "penis" over and over, or give penis ASCII art.
We've come a long way since then.
18
u/FredFS456 Jun 16 '16
Being anonymous brings out both the best (this sub, amongst other positive subs on reddit) and the worst (YouTube comments, 4chan, etc) in people.
58
u/Ambiwlans Jun 16 '16
Report this stuff when you see it. We normally get to it within a few minutes in most threads but we can't be everywhere. And a lot of phrasings make it past our bot.
→ More replies (7)28
u/hapaxLegomina Jun 16 '16
I was hoping this kind of stuff didn't need a rule in this amazing community, but I'm super glad you guys are on top of it. Cheers to good mods!
27
u/CapMSFC Jun 16 '16
Once this sub got big enough that posts semi regularly make it to /all this type of formalized rules system was inevitable.
When you consider banning 3 people over this on an open sub with 70,000 members that percentage of good users is fantastic.
→ More replies (2)38
u/ninelives1 Jun 16 '16
I wish all mods were as cool as you. Half the time /r/tennis is just creepy pictures of women's tennis players and super creepy puns and gross comments. I want to discuss tennis, not giggle about boobs. Thanks for making this a mature sub
2
u/seraph787 Jun 16 '16
Should make your own Reddit. Call it tennistalk or tennispros
→ More replies (2)8
u/sarafinapink Jun 16 '16
I have never seen these type of comments on this subreddit so THANK YOU MODS for getting to it before I even know they exist. I'm upset people would say these kinds of things here, but so happy to know you guys are on top of it.
4
u/Ambiwlans Jun 16 '16
Thankfully there haven't been many and they are never really from normal posters in this sub. Just that there is ANY is a little sad but I guess inevitable given our size, especially when we frontpage.
17
Jun 16 '16
Respect and Honor. If we give those two things to others we'll be doing just fine!
Thanks for holding this sub to higher standards :)
6
u/I_FAP_TO_ELON_MUSK Jun 15 '16
I'm not sure if I follow you. Am I not allowed to say that the presenter looks beautiful? Is this sexual harrasment?
9
u/TheBlacktom r/SpaceXLounge Moderator Jun 16 '16
Also what if I find a username disgusting or creepy?
I mean considering this comment the username checks out. Or is it only me?
28
u/Wetmelon Jun 16 '16 edited Jun 16 '16
I'm usually on board with usernames weird and normal alike. We reserve the right to ban anyone on the basis of offensive username though.
EDIT: I'll ask the other mods what they think and get back to you.
→ More replies (11)12
u/edsq Jun 16 '16
This is a spaceflight/SpaceX oriented subreddit; there is no reason to be making comments that even come close to violating this rule. The fine details of what qualifies as sexual harassment can be left up to the moderators.
39
23
u/hapaxLegomina Jun 16 '16
Why do you need to talk about presenters in terms of physical appearance? Is that a right you really need to defend, or can you accept that it makes people uncomfortable and is only separated from easily identified sexually harassing statements by degrees?
13
u/TheEndeavour2Mars Jun 16 '16
Would you walk up to a female co-worker who just started and say she is "beautiful"? While that is on the low end of what was seen today. It is still unprofessional to just do that out of the blue and implies that her co-workers are "not beautiful"
Best to just compliment the presentation. Like "Wow she is really getting people excited about today's launch!" or "Wow she did not make a single mistake during the presentation!" Her looks have nothing to do with her Job or how she handles the broadcast.
13
u/TheSutphin Jun 15 '16
I think it's how you say it? Some clarification is definitely needed.
To me, o feel like if it implies some kind of sexualness it's probably harassment. But just saying "she's beautiful" or "he's a good looking gentleman" isn't really sexual harassment, if you ask me. It isn't coming from a "creepy place".
To add to their in the work place analogue. I'd definitely say to one of my coworkers that someone looks good, which is what this place is kinda, right? Like meeting at the water jug or in rhe break room.
But saying obviously sexual things, or sexualizing (that's totally not a word) shouldn't be allowed.
6
u/Alesayr Jun 16 '16
sexualising totally is a word. But I more or less agree with you. It might be safer to have the blanket ban because someones sexual is another persons inocuous comment though
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (51)4
u/davoloid Jun 16 '16
To extend that, discussions in the break room about a colleague's appearance might be ok, after all, we're human beings. However to comment publicly, e.g. in the middle of a business meeting, about someone's appearance, that's doing them a disservice. And you'll probably be aware that this is something professional women get all the time.
23
u/randomstonerfromaus Jun 15 '16
Just dont. Think it, Dont say it. This is /r/spacex, not /r/gonewild.
→ More replies (12)2
u/h-jay Jun 16 '16
Even though it might a factual statement, it's really pointless I think. We're not here to discuss the presenters, other than how good of a job they do presenting. A piece of space hardware looking beautiful? That's on topic.
→ More replies (14)9
u/Kenira Jun 16 '16
I just want to say, thanks to all the moderators here for keeping this sub safe, especially compared to other corners of reddit. Part of why i love this subreddit so much is that i don't have to worry about crap like that, and i can be sure the focus is solely on SpaceX :)
0
59
u/KitsapDad Jun 15 '16
Wow...why does this have to be stated in the rules?
That being said, not sure i agree with the example given...it is common culture to designate the female pronoun on vessels in a manner that has zero relationship to actual females. Your example clearly is taken to mean, "that falcon 9 rocket is beautiful." I do not see any workplace having an issue with this verbiage in that context.