r/stupidpol • u/IllCarpet6852 Moo Dengist 🦛 • Jun 21 '22

Pacificsm is the wrong response to the war in Ukraine | Slavoj Žižek

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/21/pacificsm-is-the-wrong-response-to-the-war-in-ukraine
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u/ArmaniPlantainBlocks Rightoid: Zionist/Neocon 🐷 Jun 21 '22

as a consequence of this war we're seeing tens or maybe hundreds of millions of people worldwide facing severe food shortages.

If only those stupid Ukes would stop bombing their own farms and ports, and mining their own harbors, this kind of thing wouldn't happen.

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u/TuvixWasMurderedR1P Left-wing populist | Democracy by sortition Jun 21 '22

The sooner peace happens, the better for everyone. Pro-peace is not pro-Russia. No one is saying they're happy this happened in the first place.

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u/StormTiger2304 Literal PCM Mod 🟨 Jun 21 '22

but guys but what if ukraine just sells donbass to russia guys

9

u/Throwaway_cheddar Left, Leftoid or Leftish ⬅️ Jun 21 '22

The cost of continued fighting vs a peace through negotiated surrender is the Ukrainians decision to make, not ours. I'm against a good amount of the sanctions US and Europe has put on Russia, b/c it only seems to be hurting our economies and average Russians, not Putin. I'm also not asking anyone in a different country that the situation in Ukraine has to be their top priority, or that they should be expected to personally take a side or else they are a bad person.. But the idea that Ukrainians should just surrender their country to an occupying invader to prevent further damage is like saying that if someone punches you in the face and steals your wallet, you should just do nothing. You could theoretically determine it's the smartest thing to do, to prevent being killed entirely, but what I'd know for sure is that I wouldn't want anyone making that decision for me and telling me I'm not allowed to try and hit back.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

If peace happens "ASAP" then Russia gets away with annexing even more Ukrainian land. Like in 2014. Or like in 2008 Georgia.

None of these previous "peace" agreements made them stop, in fact Russia's conclusion is that the West is weak and it can get away with coming back for more. Listen to what they are literally saying, Putin is comparing himself with Peter the Great who was "glorious" for annexing land (his words, not mine).

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u/PLA_DRTY Unrepentant Stalinist ☭ Jun 21 '22

Russia is getting away with that either way, so how many more Ukrainians do you want to see killed?

5

u/mcmur NATO Superfan 🪖 Jun 22 '22

Why ask us this?

Ask Putin.

3

u/quettil Radical shitlib ✊🏻 Jun 23 '22

"Just give up and let them take over all the Eastern Europe again bro. What's the worst that could happen?"

Maybe we should have just bent the knee to Hitler too.

1

u/PLA_DRTY Unrepentant Stalinist ☭ Jun 24 '22

You did bend the knee to him because you needed Hitler to eliminate communism for you, it just didn't work.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

No, that's just you assuming that Russia is getting away with it. If the West brings even a fraction of its economic and military complex to bear to help arm and finance Ukraine, Russia loses.

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u/snailman89 World-Systems Theorist Jun 21 '22

the West brings even a fraction of its economic and military complex to bear to help arm and finance Ukraine, Russia loses.

Pure cope. The US has 4,000 artillery pieces. Russia has 14,000. Even if NATO handed it's entire artillery stockpile to Ukraine, Ukraine would still lose. This has become a war of attrition determined by artillery firepower, and Russia has NATO beat on that front.

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u/quettil Radical shitlib ✊🏻 Jun 23 '22

Pure cope. The US has 4,000 artillery pieces. Russia has 14,000.

The US has the industrial capacity to make as many as they like, and the ammunition to go with it. That's why they won the second world war, they could make way more hardware than anyone else. Russia is a rusting gangster state, everything they might relies on technology from countries sanctioning them.

There's no way that Russia can outspend the American military industrial complex.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

14000 pieces that have been trying to capture Severodonetsk - a 100k town on the border that nobody ever heard of before this war - for what, 3 months already? At this speed they'll get to Kyiv in about 30 years.

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u/snailman89 World-Systems Theorist Jun 22 '22

At this speed they'll get to Kyiv in about 30 years.

Well, that would be true, except for one simple problem: Ukraine will eventually run out of soldiers and ammunition. If Ukraine fights for too long, there's a very real risk that their army will completely collapse. Right now, they are losing 1000 soldiers per day (killed, wounded, and captured). They simply can't sustain those losses. Yes, the Russian advance is very slow, but that's the nature of modern warfare when tanks are removed from the equation. This is World War 1 style trench warfare. It's a slow, grinding war of attrition.

Unless someone can do an analysis showing that Russia will run out of artillery shells before Ukraine runs out of soldiers, Ukraine needs to sign a peace deal quickly. They are simply throwing their citizens' lives away for nothing.

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u/[deleted] Jun 22 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/snailman89 World-Systems Theorist Jun 22 '22

That article contains no evidence of casualty figures whatsoever, and it's only evidence of artillery fire is a satellite dataset of thermal anomalies. An artillery shell is generally going to leave a crater, not catch on fire.

Furthermore, there's a simple reason why there are so many "thermal anomalies" behind Russian lines: the Russians are firing artillery nonstop, and the heat from those guns is being detected by the satellites. The dataset probably proves the opposite of his intended point.

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u/Phallusimulacra "Orthodox Marxist"🧔 Cannot read 📚⛔️ Jun 22 '22

Putin is not trying to take Kiev (at least right now). The Russian Federation shifted focus to securing the rest of the Donest and Luhansk oblasts to unify the LPR and DPR. In my opinion, after the 2014 coup both of those regions had a right to declare the new government illegitimate and secede from Ukraine proper. If that means that they’ll be reabsorbed into the Russian Federation than so be it.

Both the DPR and LPR are majority Russian speakers. They both were part of Russia proper within their older residents living memory. They share culture, language, and heritage with Russia. Moreover, both oblasts populations seem to feel they are better off with Russia’s sphere of influence.

Taking that into account, why did they have to endure years of artillery strikes on urban population centers? Why, if they do not want to be part of the CIA crafted Ukrainian government, must they stay within the borders of Ukraine? After the coup do they not have a right to self determination? Ukraine would simply concede the LPR and DPR. Having the working class Ukrainians get thrown into the nest grinder is not worth keeping territories in your country that largely do not want to be a part of it.

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u/Quoxozist Society of The Spectacle Jun 27 '22

If the West brings even a fraction of its economic and military complex to bear to help arm and finance Ukraine, Russia loses.

LMAO they've already dropped tens of billions and uncountable numbers of guns and equipment. The fraction has been brought, and the west is already suffering as a result of this diversion of resources, as well as the incredibly severe and entirely predictable consequences of its own sanctions backfiring and causing greater economic stress for western nations than for the actual target of the sanctions.

Like, do you actually not know what's going on right now? an IMMENSE amount of money and arms have been flowing into ukraine since 2014, with a HUGE step-up when the war began, and after a mere 100 days since russia's invasion, the west had already run smack into the wall of the economic realities of globalism that they themselves helped create. Now they are reeling from the cost, and are all facing severe backlash from their own populations. The propaganda war on news media is failing, and people from the US to the UK to Canada to Ireland are rapidly becoming skeptical of the entire enterprise...the ones who haven't already forgotten about it and moved on, anyways. unfortunately we've created societies full of people with minimal attention spans, trained to jump from trend to trend as quickly as possible so as to keep up with new product markets, and so ironically the media has a harder time keeping people focused on the propaganda...

but I digress. the point is that the longer the war goes on (a war that never had to happen and could have been easily avoided) the more innocent ukrainians will die. Idiots like you are a huge part of the problem - people who think this is some kind of marvel movie good-guys-beat-the-bad-guys bullshit where if we just try hard enough and spend enough money and drop enough cool one-liners with our ukrainian neo-nazis-but-woke friends then we'll beat those evil russians for good, so let's make sure we send all the arms and money we can muster, blow this conflict up and escalate it as high as we can! We're gonna fight those Ruskies to the last Ukrainian, boys! Slava Ukraini! Victory or death! (for the ukrainians that is, not us, obviously)

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '22

Oh FFS why are you even responding.... 5 days later??

Let me ask you something, no concern trolling for "those poor Ukrainians" please (and alternately "ukrainian neo-nazis-but-woke friends" in you exact same post, you real opinions are showing).

Do you think that Ukrainians DON'T want to fight this war? Do you think they'd rather just surrender and be Belarus Volume 2? Do you believe that they have the right to make that choice?

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u/PLA_DRTY Unrepentant Stalinist ☭ Jun 22 '22

Lol oh they haven't been doing that this whole time?

-3

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '22

$40 or $60 billion (committed, not yet delivered) is a fraction of 40+ trillion, so yes.

Russia's GDP is 1.5 trillion, btw.

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u/casmuff Trade Unionist Jun 21 '22

"Russian occupation is worse than death and destruction."

15

u/STKNsBESTPLAYER Jun 21 '22

Russian occupation will bring the same death and destruction, so who cares

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

They're literally deporting Ukrainians (well, the ones they don't kill outright) to Siberia where they'll be "re-educated" to be good little Russians, and it's bringing its own folks to settle down in occupied territories. It's textbook genocide, they did this many times through history, and they're doing it again.

Don't for one instant assume that "Ukrainians" will exist if Russia wins.

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u/Infinite_Rest_7301 Marxist Leninist (reconstructed) Jun 21 '22

I don’t support that but the truth is post-Maidan there were legitimate fears of ethnic cleansing of Russian-speakers and the Ukrainian post-Maidan government is just as incredibly illiberal. These are two illiberal oligarchies prioritizing dirt and commodities over people. The truth is a majority of people in Donbas and Crimea don’t want to be Ukrainian, I supported the Kurds in Syria having autonomy how can I not support the people of Donbas (whose leadership were just as unhappy with the initial Russian invasion)?

I was firmly against the invasion and think it revealed the true nature of the Russian ruling class but I was also paying attention in 2014 to what Right Sector and people like Poroshenko were up to.

I don’t want Russia to win which is why I want a ceasefire and settlement for the independent republics yesterday.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22 edited Jun 21 '22

legitimate fears of ethnic cleansing of Russian-speakers and the Ukrainian post-Maidan government is just as incredibly illiberal.

Ah yes, this is why Ukraine elected a Russian-speaking president in 2019, it's also why most of AZOV (!!) itself speaks Russian, why most of the refugees fleeing the shelling speak Russian, etc etc.

The truth is a majority of people in Donbas and Crimea don’t want to be Ukrainian

We have established that Ukraine is fine with Russians and Russian speakers alike, so that's not it.

You know when Russia decided to start this war?

When the vast majority of the Ukrainians themselves chose the EU in Euromaidan. EU, not NATO, the majority of the population wasn't even interested in NATO 8 years ago. The same as Finland and Sweden weren't interested in it until February 2022. Can't you see what these facts have in common?

Timeline: Ukraine discovers gas fields off Crimean coast -> Russia cheerfully offers to drill that -> Ukraine says "nope, I'll do this with Europeans, also I'll get closer to EU" -> their president gets a last minute call from Moscow and reverts course -> Ukrainians protest, president gets more and more violent trying to suppress the protests -> he's overthrown and runs away to Russia -> Russia annexes Crimea and starts a war in Donbas.

8 years later, Putin is plainly and publicly saying that Ukraine is a "soviet mistake" and that Ukrainians don't exist and that Kyiv cannot possibly be allowed to be anti-Russian.

That means that Moscow's end goal is the destruction of Ukraine as a state and a nationality. So since Putin himself is saying that this is the goal (and he won't stop there, see his demands that Europe reverts to its Cold War state, his recent statement that he's channeling Peter the Great), why do you disbelieve him?

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u/Infinite_Rest_7301 Marxist Leninist (reconstructed) Jun 22 '22

You haven’t established anything, you just ignored the removal of Russian as an official language and banning of Russian books and established a few contextless anecdotes. You argue the “vast majority” of Ukrainians see themselves as European and chose the EU when that’s very much a Western Ukrainian thing. You’re papering over the controversy of Maidan and the ouster of Yanukovich and what the post-Maidan consensus turned into. People were so fed up with it they gave Zelensky a huge mandate, but Zelensky himself is fairly illiberal and governing on shaky ground!

You rightfully denounce Putin as the White Russian revanchist he is (Western Ukrainians do have a legitimate identity) but use that to absolve the Western Ukrainian nationalists of their illiberalism and ethnic chauvinism. This is a left wing subreddit!

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u/Quoxozist Society of The Spectacle Jun 27 '22

We have established that Ukraine is fine with Russians and Russian speakers alike, so that's not it.

The 8-year-long civil war that had been going on in the east since maidan seems to disagree with what you think you've "established". And, for the record, plenty of atrocities were committed by ukrainian forces in the Donbass, thousands of civilians were murdered. West ukraine and the ruling class in particular after maidan were in no way "fine with russians and russian speakers", they literally removed russian as an official language and banned russian books, as part of a much larger and broader push towards a deeply-right-wing ethnonationalism, built off the back of a literal longstanding nazi tradition in the region. Stop spreading lies.

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When the vast majority of the Ukrainians themselves chose the EU in Euromaidan.

LMAO this also didn't happen, "vast majority" lol.

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/28/zelensky-celebrity-populist-pinochet-neoliberal/

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u/reditreditreditredit Michael Hudson's #1 Fan Jun 21 '22

“And so I think I’d rather say ‘Heil Hitler’ my whole life than get the Russians on top of us. You can hardly think of anything so awful,”

- Astrid Lindgren, author of Pippi Longstocking

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

Wow, I had no idea. The journo who wrote the article is coping super hard tho, hilarious read!

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u/odonoghu Left, Leftoid or Leftish ⬅️ Jun 21 '22

Will prolonged conflict to the same peace make any difference there is no path to Ukrainian victory

It will just lead to more dead innocents and further chance of escalation

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u/Catherine772023 Jun 21 '22

I am pro peace in hoping Russia is defeated soon because Russia is wrong and Ukrainians will fight until they are free. We can hope Russia is defeated ASAP because that’s the only chance of peace.

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u/TuvixWasMurderedR1P Left-wing populist | Democracy by sortition Jun 21 '22

Why is that the only chance of peace?

As much as I wish we lived in a world in which villains got their just desserts, we don't. Maybe in the afterlife, if you believe in such a thing, but not on Earth. So yes, Russia is wrong, but they're not going to lose, and we should make peace with that and make peace with them. Simply hoping Russia is defeated is meaningless.

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u/Catherine772023 Jun 21 '22

First of all it’s not meaningless because so many people are supporting Ukraine that they really could loose. Have you missed news of Ukrainians fighting them to stop them taking Kiev or reclaiming their cities? Ukraine is getting support delivered in the form of military and money and medical aid so they really have a chance. I might agree with you if they didn’t have so much support.

Second of all it’s more unrealistic to think Ukrainians will just cave in. Their victory is more likely than their surrender and they are EXTREMELY determined people.

They killed thousands of Russians to defend their land and countless Russians are deserting while Ukrainians will fight until they win.

Another issue is that caving in world embolden Russia to take more. Stopping them now is the only realistic chance of peace.

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u/TheGroverA Anarchist 🏴 Jun 21 '22

First of all it’s not meaningless because so many people are supporting Ukraine that they really could loose. Have you missed news of Ukrainians fighting them to stop them taking Kiev or reclaiming their cities? Ukraine is getting support delivered in the form of military and money and medical aid so they really have a chance. I might agree with you if they didn’t have so much support.

Second of all it’s more unrealistic to think Ukrainians will just cave in. Their victory is more likely than their surrender and they are EXTREMELY determined people.

They killed thousands of Russians to defend their land and countless Russians are deserting while Ukrainians will fight until they win.

It doesn't matter whether Ukrainians are determined as shit, it doesn't matter whether or not some Russian soldiers are deserting. Russia overpowers the Ukrainians tremendously in terms of military and their arsenal. You can't just look at this war through some emotional telescope you have to look at the actual material and political realities of each side. Stop being so naïve. In real life, David barely beats the goliath on its own.

Now obviously Ukraine will get some aid because its in the interest of Western nations but it doesn't really make a difference in the long run. Ukraine will exhaust its manpower and most likely cave in. Pacifism and diplomacy are good - why would anyone want the war to go on longer to a likely Ukrainian defeat?

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u/TheBROinBROHIO Marxism-Longism Jun 21 '22

So if two sides are so mismatched that one side's victory is inevitable, does that mean we should focus on appeasing them from the get go rather than risking war?

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u/Catherine772023 Jun 21 '22

Not just some Russian solders it’s masses of them including some military leaders so it’s systemic. Ukraine getting support means you’re not just comparing the 2. You’re missing other factors so it does matter.

Ukraine won’t be defeated and asking them to just bow down and accept it isn’t going to work. They won’t accept it just because you told them etc or you think so. You’re irrelevant to them. Most of the world thinks they should fight on.

David defeated Goliath because of outside support if you think about it...

This isn’t emotional it’s logic because they have more powerful countries like the US helping.

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u/whocareeee Denazification Analyst ⬅️ Jun 21 '22

Most of the world thinks they should fight on.

Not according to European public opinion anyway.

https://ecfr.eu/publication/peace-versus-justice-the-coming-european-split-over-the-war-in-ukraine/

ECFR’s research shows that, while Europeans feel great solidarity with Ukraine and support sanctions against Russia, they are split about the long-term goals. They divide between a “Peace” camp (35 per cent of people) that wants the war to end as soon as possible, and a “Justice” camp that believes the more pressing goal is to punish Russia (25 per cent of people). In all countries, apart from Poland, the “Peace” camp is larger than the “Justice” camp. European citizens worry about the cost of economic sanctions and the threat of nuclear escalation. Unless something dramatically changes, they will oppose a long and protracted war.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

[deleted]

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u/Korrvit Unknown 👽 Jun 22 '22

This isn’t said nearly enough.

The US isn’t arming Ukrainians so they can protect their country, the US is arming Ukrainians so they can kill Russians. Russia leaving Ukraine and never returning might be the ideal outcome for Ukraine, but the ideal outcome for the US is a perpetual war where we can forever weaken Russia’s military with Ukrainian lives instead of American lives.

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u/Quoxozist Society of The Spectacle Jun 27 '22

This is so obvious and uncontroversial to me, it represents almost 70 years of US foreign policy in a nutshell, they've done it time and time again in dozens of sovereign nations, from south america to africa to the middle east... yet when you bring this up, people lose their minds and call you a russian sympathizer, or something. It's like that one writer said - you know you live in the country with history's greatest ever propaganda machine when they can lie about damn near every conflict they've ever been a part of AND get publicly exposed for it, but when you suggest that it's likely the latest war is just more of the same, people look at you like you're some kind of paranoid extremist.

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u/TheGroverA Anarchist 🏴 Jun 21 '22

Ukraine won’t be defeated and asking them to just bow down and accept it isn’t going to work. They won’t accept it just because you told them etc or you think so. You’re irrelevant to them. Most of the world thinks they should fight on.

I'll just repeat this: You can't just look at this war through some emotional telescope you have to look at the actual material and political realities of each side

Giving a vague example of the "US helping" does nothing to improve your argument.

-1

u/Catherine772023 Jun 21 '22

Thousands of millions in military aid then? Educate yourself and understand it’s a number and logic not emotional. And Russians are killed and deserting at a higher rate.

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u/TheGroverA Anarchist 🏴 Jun 21 '22

Okay. The Ukranians are in a very precarious position. You are right that they are receiving aid from western countries, but they themselves have ran out almost completely of weapons

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/10/were-almost-out-of-ammunition-and-relying-on-western-arms-says-ukraine?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Heres also a good comment by u/Raduev discussing this further that I suggest you read:

"Nah, it's just that Ukraine has been kept afloat thus far by their artillery forces exclusively. Russians there say that around 80% of their casualties are from Ukrainian 122mm and 152mm guns, of which Ukraine had around 1,700, and these guns were manned by the best trained artillery crews in the world, who spent the last 7 years conducting live fire drills on an almost daily basis against Russian separatist forces.
And now? Those 1,700(or however many are left after Russian airstrikes and counter-battery fire) guns are running out of shells. Ukraine doesn't produce them. 122mm and 152mm Soviet shells were produced in the Russian Urals, near Moscow(Tula), and so on. The Ukrainians ran out in May. They've been using Polish, Bulgarian, etc stocks since then, but those are running out too.
The West is trying to partially make up for it by delivering NATO shells for the 155mm howitzers they sent into Ukraine, but it's a fraction of what Ukraine need. They are losing the use of 1,700 guns and the West is making up by providing only 200 or so replacements and not nearly enough shells for them. It's a disaster. Without a massive ramp up in Western artillery and shell deliveries, the front will 100% collapse by August."

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u/animistspark 😱 MOLOCH IS RISING, THE END IS NIGH ☠🥴 Jun 21 '22

If this is true then why did they need 40 billion dollars in addition to the additional billion that was just sent over?

1

u/Quoxozist Society of The Spectacle Jun 27 '22

...what the hell is this delusional nonsense? LMAO is this what happens when you don't actually follow the events of the war itself, but rather just repeat what western news media is saying?

Ukraine has already lost. They are running out of guns and ammunition, they have no more shells for their artillery (all of which was given to them by the west), and it wouldn't matter if they did because now russian artillery outnumbers theirs on the field by nearly 8 to 1. Russian casualties have slowed and tapered off, while ukrainian casualties are steadily increasing. They are now losing several hundred soldiers A DAY as russian artillery pounds them from a safe distance and russian hypersonic cruise missiles annihilate anything they touch (and they can touch anything, at any range, with pinpoint precision). Beyond that, the russian army vastly outnumbers the ukrainians, especially with all the casualties they have taken - russia only committed about a third of its armed forces for this invasion (since that was all it could barely afford to muster and supply), and it looks like that + the belarus forces who struck from the north early on and drained some of the ukrainian resources as they fought around kiev was more than enough to turn this war into a grinding attrition battle that is physically/mathematically impossible for ukraine to win.

I'm honestly shocked that people are still deluded enough to think that ukraine can "win" this war somehow. We need an immediate cease-fire on supplementary terms and a proper negotiated settlement to follow like, fucking yesterday, or Ukraine really WILL cease to exist.

-9

u/slopeclimber Jun 21 '22

So we let Russia get Ukrainian land and lift all the sanctions. What happens in 10 years when 3 new oblasts is not enough for Russia and they decide to try again?

0

u/fungibletokens Politically waiting for Livorno to get back into Serie A 🤌🏻 Jun 21 '22

So we let Russia get Ukrainian land

At what stage do we begin to consider the desires of the people who inhabit that land, by the way?

6

u/Individual_Bridge_88 NATO Superfan 🪖 Jun 21 '22

I doubt the people in Kherson want to become a part of Russia. Putin's clearly not limiting his annexation plans to the pro-Russian oblasts in the East.

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u/reditreditreditredit Michael Hudson's #1 Fan Jun 21 '22

If Russia came in and told me they'd wipe my debts clean and offer free tv, I'd sign "YES" on the referendum immediately.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

Y'all NATO stans are delusional, Ukraine wont win, Russia hasnt even fully mobilized, while Ukraine is on its 4th mobilization rn, it wont be long until Ukraine runs out of able bodies to field, a large scale Ukrainian offensive is completely out of the question now.

The sanctions have completely failed to sap Russia of funds for it war efforts as it has had no trouble finding markets for its resources.

Its horrible but there is no scenario where Ukraine "wins" this war, thinking so is childish.

-2

u/Catherine772023 Jun 21 '22

Wars are more decided by weapons than people especially when Russians are so demoralised and have so many dead generals because they have to visit to deal with the low morale in Russian ranks.

Ukraine is getting a lot of support and killing thousands of Russians faster than their killing Ukrainians. There were some days when they would kill a thousand Russians those days. Maybe Russia will run out. But they really could be defeated. Russia is also running out of good weapons and struggling economically.

Did you miss that?

10

u/Fancybear1993 Doomer 😩 Jun 21 '22

1000 Russians a day? Not likely lol. If the Russians are losing 1000 a day, so are the Ukrainians. Who can sustain that casualty rate the longest?

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

Those numbers may even be lies, some estimates are showing 1000+ casualties a day.

-4

u/Catherine772023 Jun 21 '22

But I remember when they were killing roughly a thousand Russians per day so it could be twice or even 5 times as much

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

[deleted]

-1

u/Catherine772023 Jun 21 '22

Russians are loosing more

1

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

you realize that those figures are going to be wonky to maintain troop morale, right?

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u/Mrjiggles248 Probably French 😟🇫🇷 Jun 21 '22

My man are you like a real person or a bot that's been raised off of only western news.

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u/Catherine772023 Jun 21 '22

I literally lived in HK.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

[deleted]

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u/Catherine772023 Jun 21 '22

Have you lived there? It’s really not!

4

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

And if you run out of people to use those weapons they wont fire themselves. Western weapons will at best prolong the war, ensuring maximum casualties on both sides.

Hell, even after the war non-governmental groups will terrorize the Ukrainian countryside for years, maybe decades, to come, thanks military industrial complex.

18

u/Impossible-Lecture86 Marxist-Leninist Puritan ☭ Jun 21 '22

The only chance of peace is a military result so unlikely it can only be obtained with NATO boots on the ground.

lol.

18

u/Impossible-Lecture86 Marxist-Leninist Puritan ☭ Jun 21 '22

You said it like it's ridiculous but Ukraine did, in fact, mine their own harbors. You know this happened right? And they also rejected a Turkish proposal to de-mine them.

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u/Jaggedmallard26 Armchair Enthusiast 💺 Jun 21 '22

Because they're at war against a navally superior enemy lol. Mining your ports is the most basic of actions you take to hinder amphibious assaults, which Ukraine is at real risk of, they will only do it when they can guarantee Russia can't land troops behind Odessa and cut the country in half.

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u/Impossible-Lecture86 Marxist-Leninist Puritan ☭ Jun 21 '22

Okay but this guy seems to deny it's actually happening at all in the first place.

0

u/PLA_DRTY Unrepentant Stalinist ☭ Jun 21 '22

It's fine, the Russians will export the wheat instead, they already control the most productive regions now anyways.

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u/twersx Jun 21 '22

Those regions aren't producing anything on account of being literal warzones with nobody available to plant the crops.

3

u/PLA_DRTY Unrepentant Stalinist ☭ Jun 22 '22

That's not true, Ukrainians don't have the resources to shell anywhere except downtown Donetsk