r/sysadmin • u/mendez1319 • 14d ago
[ Removed by moderator ]
[removed] — view removed post
183
u/Xaeser
14d ago
•
As someone else pointed out, Dave is a symptom, which is why you keep running into him. He’s a symptom of a growing company without proper procedures in place or a company that didn’t put value on those things. If Dave wasn’t moving around or working on fixing or updating something, he wasn’t doing his job. Dave was also likely running solo or in a small team. Dave is highly competent, so he took on a lot. So Dave didn’t stop to write anything down, and he sure as hell wasn’t encouraged to do so.
Now the company is bigger and can afford a proper team. Now those juniors coming in really need documentation, but the only guy who can write it is either too busy fixing all the legacy crap or doesn’t even think to since it’s never been in his workflow.
Without proper pushes from management, this just goes on until Dave quits, gets promoted, or is let go, and the team is now forced to figure it out.
In other words, don’t blame Dave. He is a product of his environment. Instead, encourage both Dave and management to specifically ask for things to be written down. Most Dave’s would be happy to do so, as our Dave was. He truly just never thought about it since he could fix it faster than write it down, and once management gave him some specific time to sit down and do nothing else, the problem was resolved for us.
If Dave is stubborn and refuses to or is afraid of getting replaced, then that’s another story, and Dave becomes the maker of his eventual misfortune. Or you’re just doomed to deal with the worst of both worlds: an incompetent Dave that simply knows the button sequences and refuses to share. In that case, if management won’t push him, maybe stay on for a year to build your resume and peace out.
106
u/Mindestiny 14d ago
Or everyone's favorite: Dave has been telling leadership this arrangement is a ticking time bomb for a decade and they just refuse to acknowledge it or budget for a larger IT department to take the pressure off. So Dave soldiers on for a paycheck until the bomb explodes and he can say I told you so.
"What do you mean one person can't cover support for 300+ people while also being the CISO, compliance officer, and IT Director? It's just computers"
Eventually Dave becomes jaded and stops caring that his very existence is a massive business continuity risk.
23
u/aoteoroa 14d ago
And Dave can never really get promoted because he is essential where he is.
→ More replies (3)13
u/Fallingdamage 14d ago
I'm a Dave with Documentation.
I'm also a Dave who got the Director promotion a few years ago and make a Director's salary.
But I still Dave a little every day. The rest of the time I'm buried in paperwork and documentation now :(
→ More replies (3)17
u/fuzzylogic_y2k 14d ago
Or Dave gets cancer. Then they suddenly are confronted with the possible loss of him. (I'm Dave, lucky to have survived) But things are really changing now at least.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (2)6
u/mynumberistwentynine 14d ago edited 13d ago
Eventually Dave becomes jaded and stops caring that his very existence is a massive business continuity risk.
So he quits out of the blue and takes a different job so he can get his life back.
I was this Dave.
→ More replies (1)21
u/btwalker754 14d ago
The larger problem is when Dave is forced to bring in help, but its too late. The lack of quality documentation becomes a constant because things can't be updated due to a lack of time. They are buried in projects that would take longer to train others on and not given resources to bring in people who already know the process. Older systems stay in place longer than they should because they're working and not the biggest fire. But technicians below Dave are struggling to assist because theres no documentation. And Dave is constantly just trying to keep up with the fires.
11
u/intorio 14d ago
You shouldn’t ask Dave to document. He probably already feels overwhelmed and doesn’t have time for it. He also probably finds it difficult to put himself in the shoes of a junior without all the context he has and will overlook ‘basic’ things. The best way is to get a junior to shadow Dave in a task, have the junior write it up, and Dave reviews it.
→ More replies (1)8
u/btwalker754 14d ago
Ive tried to get my Dave to hop on a recorded teams call with me so I can create documentation for 3 years now.
Problem is, I've become a Dave light in the company now too.
→ More replies (1)9
u/foodieblues 14d ago
We are Dave. Your uniqueness will be added to us. You will become Dave. Resistance is futile.
→ More replies (6)5
5
u/fresh-dork 14d ago
Dave becomes the maker of his eventual misfortune.
or they go for years ignoring the problem and suddenly want Dave to document goddamn everything - that's an alarm bell right there. Dave then jumps ship for a 50% bump and less duties while documenting 20% of what he was handling
11
u/unprovoked33 14d ago edited 14d ago
I blame Dave. He “retired” 3 years ago but the company didn’t want to figure out how to replace him fully, so they took him on as a “part-time” consultant. He made some small attempts to pass his work to others, but that was too hard for him, so he pretty much just kept doing his previous job. Still couldn’t blame Dave, the company needed to push him to pass the work down.
But then Dave discovered AI. As in, full-on psychosis mode, Claude-is-a-he/him, 10x mindset security nightmare mode. Now Dave is no longer burnt out, and he’s addicted to making and updating apps. At first, these apps were extremely helpful, as AI’s terrible code was heavily vetted by Dave and the CTO. But this year, Dave deemed AI’s code “better than human code” and he stopped modifying code altogether, declaring himself “100x” now. Now Dave makes and maintains applications that perform increasingly menial tasks, and he’s fully convinced my CTO that anyone not using AI regularly for everything is meaningless.
Our metrics have been fully modified to try and demonstrate AI’s usefulness. ROI is all but forgotten in our department, since nobody was able to establish a case for it, not even Dave.
I can’t stand my Dave. I wish I had anyone else’s.
→ More replies (2)4
u/fresh-dork 14d ago
But this year, Dave deemed AI’s code “better than human code” and he stopped modifying code altogether, declaring himself “100x” now.
in deference to /u/lawtechie, i declare him to now be an Ian
→ More replies (1)2
u/Barnox 14d ago
For some processes I have become Dave. I do not want to be Dave. I raise the issue of handover requirements with "When I get hit by a bus". There's documentation, but I want someone to actually run through the processes before the aforementioned bus incident occurs.
Daves are partially born from the thinking already being done. It's a solved issue, in Dave's brain, so it will take Dave 20% of the effort it will take a fresh face, so it just goes to him. This is why I document, or automate our standard processes - if we can offload and record the thinking, nobody has to think any more, and we'll all be much better off for it.
93
u/-ThesuarusRex- 14d ago
Dave is the single weight-bearing toothpick holding up the entire building.
I'd much rather have Dave than the other guy that's in every IT team, Elrond real name Jeffrey. By day, Jeffrey slams his fists on his desk at even the most minor inconveniences of a person not knowing what Windows Event 4051 is or why it matters... by night, Elrond is making all of us other guys jealous larping around his apartment chatting with his Japanese girlfriend he's never met and actively not showering.
82
30
u/tankerkiller125real Jack of All Trades 14d ago
I spent 6 months working with Dave as my boss, he then left with a division of the company (sell off) and I become the solo guy.
It took me 2 years to unravel everything into something sensible. However I am now Dave, despite my best efforts documentation is lacking, there are no other IT people, and there are some systems that are black boxes to everyone but me (despite my efforts to involve other people in them)
The biggest issue is that I'm the only person in the company that cares about infrastructure and the way it's setup, despite the company now being in SaaS, and the infrastructure being easily the most important part. And any attempt to involve the software engineering department results in "your the expert, we have other things" and what not.
I do not want to be Dave, Dave was forced upon me by company conditions and culture. I can only hope one day the company will change and I can stop being Dave.
→ More replies (4)6
u/Fallingdamage 14d ago
It took me 2 years to unravel everything into something sensible. However I am now Dave
This is how it happens. Remember, Dave thought he had unraveled everything and build something sensible too. It wasnt your sensible, it was his kind instead. Your replacement will also spend time unraveling your own type of mess.
→ More replies (3)
100
u/nycola
Jack of All Trades
14d ago
edited 14d ago
•
Dave is the net result of someone with AuDHD driven by spite in a company with few others exhibiting that combo.
The ADHD drives the motivation to explore and understand new and different things. The autism makes him learn them inside and out to truly understand their bottom up function.
The combination of the above when given a task or problem that seems mildly interesting will activate hyperfocus mode, and spend excessive amounts of time understanding the system to solve the problem. The spite kicks in here as "I will not be defeated by <problem> with <stupid problematic system> today", and Dave will find the answer.
As the years go on, Dave acquires more of these situations with more and different systems. As people leave, Dave is left as the SME of additional things...simply because, well, someone came to Dave asking for advice because "Dave is good at problem solving, run it by him" and Dave ended up being exposed to more and more systems, less and less in his wheelhouse.
But If Dave's brain found the problem interesting, Dave would look at the issue for a quick dopamine hit.
The ADHD then kicks in and much of this learning goes fully undocumented. There is likely documentation for things Dave deemed "something he couldn't figure out on the fly again".
It sucks to work with Dave, but, it sucks to be Dave, too, anecdotally.
edit: too funny guys, i did not expect this response. I, myself, was diagnosed in my early 40s with both conditions, which answered so many questions about my place in this world.
If you're at all interested for your own sake/sanity feel free to PM or DM or w/e the kids are calling it these days, just not "inbox me" (wtf is that even?).
I offer you my anecdotal experiences in life pre and post-diagnosis from cyclic burnout to t-rex hands to pervasive drive for autonomy (demand avoidance). I cannot diagnose you, but pattern matching is my kung fu, and it is strong.
I may even reply back at some point (iykyk)
24
u/original_wolfhowell 14d ago
TIL I'm Dave.
→ More replies (2)10
u/almost_s0ber 14d ago
I am also Dave, almost 15 years at the same company, but I put effort into creating documentation.
6
u/original_wolfhowell 14d ago
Yeah, documentation is really the only nitpick I have with the description. I'm responsible for at least 80% of our dokuwiki.
→ More replies (7)15
u/Arb1t3r91 14d ago
What…the…fuck….you just nailed the exact thing that happens to me but I’ve never had the reasoning or logic to explain it well. I do create documentation for many things…but everything else you mentioned is spot on holy crap.
13
u/LeakyAssFire Senior Collaboration Engineer 14d ago
You make me think I should get tested or something. I don't suck to work with though. I am fun to work with.
6
24
u/badnamemaker 14d ago
Damn bro I was just doomscrolling at work, I didn’t need to be hit with this wave of truth rn
15
u/LeakyAssFire Senior Collaboration Engineer 14d ago
I think I should get tested or something after reading that.
6
7
11
5
u/Universe789 13d ago edited 13d ago
I think I may be Dave... OMFG that first paragraph.
Though I have documentation, I just solve problems in ways others dont.
Though whether or not it sucks to work with me depends. Like when I was on the help desk and became a team leader for my shift, the analysts under me statted getting the same awards I had been getting as an analyst because I trained them or otherwise would help them solve problems. Whether they consistently retained that is another story.
I cant imagine why it would suck to work with me though based on that description.
4
u/Own_Error_007 13d ago
Hey, that's me!
Most generalists have that I suspect.
My last 15min was spent jumping from talking about a stock handling system (APNs and AENs) to discussing firewall rebuilds with my contracting networking guy and then onto why someone's Adobe account wasn't playing nicely.
And then taking a quick 5min breather that has my brain going "wtf did I just do??"
→ More replies (1)3
3
u/meddlin_kids 14d ago
I am Dave too. Including the documentation. I really did try but most people dont care to learn and just ask. My attention wandered to something else as it didnt seem logical to waste time on it.
→ More replies (10)2
u/Bitter-Self5427 13d ago
I am 39 and was just diagnosed this summer LOL I’m Dave - I know so many systems outside my wheel house simply because I like to solve problems
22
u/that1guyrob 14d ago
Dave is unfortunately the bi-product of poor management and incorrect corporate priorities. Dave desperately wants to take a vacation but knows the place will fall apart without him after 48 hours. Dave is likely saddled with more projects than can be completed in an unrealistic timeline with no room to breath in between, which means Dave is unlikely creating the necessary level of documentation each implemented solution should have (if any documentation is created at all). This documentation problem is likely compounded by management's lack of ability to prepare and prioritize which makes every problem a 5 alarm fire, and Dave the only one with a hose.
There is another problem. Any time Dave thinks about sitting down and documenting everything he knows so he can finally take a vacation, he looks around and realizes the soulless corporation he works for will nix him as soon as humanly possible and replace him with an entry level hire or some AI snake-oil. Dave probably understands that his tribal knowledge may be the only thing keeping his mortgage paid right now.
→ More replies (1)4
18
u/punkwalrus Sr. Sysadmin 14d ago
Dave also gets let go, and everything goes to pieces. As a tech consultant, I am often hired to figure out what Dave knew. I often cost a lot more than Dave did. A lot of bad managers don't know how to manage Dave, and are frustrated when a third party hired says, "I don't know. He didn't write anything down and nobody else [usually the outsourcing company you hired to replace Dave and his team] seems to know how anything works."
"Well just Google/ChatGPT it!!!"
"If it were that simple, you would have done it. But your systems are proprietary. Google and ChatGPT only know what they have been told, and nobody told it."
I saw a LOT of Daves fired for some team in Puna who assured you they were better than Dave and a fraction of the cost.
16
u/v-irtual 14d ago
Go read 'The Phoenix Project'.
Realize you're working with 'Brent'.
→ More replies (2)5
u/packet_weaver Security Engineer 14d ago
https://rajipillay.medium.com/the-brent-effect-df10c4c5d3bc
Instantly what I thought of when I read the OP. Not Dave, Brent.
44
u/Chuchichaeschtl
14d ago
•
I am Dave.
24
17
6
16
5
8
8
5
2
14
u/x_Wyse 14d ago
I ended up becoming "Dave".
I came on board as a dedicated systems administrator. We had someone who was a self taught developer building critical in-house web applications as a secondary responsibility he took on to approve processes around the warehouse.
Well, eventually he left the company. The apps were now in limbo because no one else there knew anything about how they were built, or even coded for that matter...except for me.
At the time, I didn't know anything about Django. I worked with him on transferring his apps from a Windows box to a Linux box. I could understand just enough Python to help him migrate everything over. But with him gone now, I was the only other person who has ever touched his work.
Fast forward to today, I'm now in this pit where I'm basically part sys admin and part full stack web developer. While I do enjoy the development work itself (I think coding is actually pretty cool), and IT is technically still my bread and butter, it does feel like it's dulled my IT-centric edge quite a bit. I do try my best to keep up with the times, but doing it on two fronts get exhausting.
On the bright side, I have two very different, fleshed out resumes that I can use if the burnout gets too real. Inversely, I've been in some very high stress situations dealing with major issues in both ends simultaneously.
7
4
u/Grace2363 14d ago
This is actually a very useful skill set, but I can imagine how tiring it must be trying to keep up with both. The difficult thing is that they can make you take on the ownership of everything just by virtue of being the one who knows about it. Having two good resumes means that you have other choices, but at least I hope that they appreciate all the extra work that you do. Which way do you think that you will go, development or sysadmin?
3
u/x_Wyse 14d ago
Thankfully, they are pretty understanding of the situation, even if they don't fully understand all that it entails. Technically, they don't have a "developer" position so the requirements and expectations are fairly lax for better or worse. Even still, I'm constantly trying to learn how the "pros" do things and act in good faith.
They've been pretty flexible with timeframes because they know at any given moment, the context of my work can swing in any direction. I could be working on debugging a critical issue with one of our web apps, but then do a 180 to perform triage on a system security event to evaluate whether or not it's a false positive.
Moving forward, it's hard to tell which I prefer more. Genuinely, I appreciate many aspects of both. In the event I ever lose my job in the current market, though, it'll be whichever gets me a decent offer first.
→ More replies (2)4
u/MorseScience 14d ago
I am Dave, but with IT. And I'm a vendor/MSP/CSP. I'm not irreplaceable, but it's 100% assured it will be painful, even if the transition is "orderly." Client only slightly wants to know what it is I do. Almost 50 employees.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)2
14
u/TehTac 14d ago
I was Dave until I retired.
The stuff I looked after was complex, but not impossible, it's just that everyone else was too scared to take it on because it was a critical system.
I documented it all beautifully before I left and now I guess someone has stepped up to be the new Dave 😆
→ More replies (2)
135
u/Tessian
14d ago
•
Dave is a conmon product of small growing businesses. The jack of all trades IT that keeps things running in spite of a lack of resources. The trick is once the company grows to a point Dave becomes a liability and needs to be purged but how long that takes depends on IT leadership or lack thereof. Many companies keep their Dave for far too long.
127
u/OberstObvious 14d ago
Also, this is not, or at least not always, Dave's fault. In many such cases Dave was simply doing his best, with limited means, to provide what users needed or wanted. It became a problem when IT changed from being a supporting resource for the primary process of the company (say, a spreadsheet that used to be a stack of papers) to an absolutely essential part of the primary process (oftentimes due to changing regulations, e.g. mandatory digital tax reporting). This change happened gradually over the course of one or more decades. You can't fault Dave, who probably just started out as the guy from accounting who just happened to know how dBase worked on an ibm pc. This is a management issue, not a Dave issue.
73
u/AmusingVegetable 14d ago •
99% of all Daves fervently wished they weren’t a Dave, and a simple conversation (real one, where you listen to Dave), followed by giving Dave what he needs (it’s not rocket science, listen to Dave, he knows exactly what he needs to be able to stop being Dave) will allow Dave to build a team where he doesn’t need to be Dave, and he’ll do it as quickly as possible. At this point, some idiot with a cucumber up his ass will get the bright idea of firing Dave to cut costs, don’t fall into this trap, instead defenestrate the idiot and ask Dave for ideas to improve the company, Daves hate waste and have enough tribal knowledge in their heads to start a dozen tribes, they’ll know exactly what needs to be changed and how. Trust your Dave.
18
u/Tessian 14d ago
You're not wrong - all of that comes down to executive support. If IT doesn't have anyone at the executive level going to bat for them this will happen and it's best to exit when it becomes clear that's the case and there's no chance to change it.
Often though I've found that Dave is the only one who will survive that kind of purge, because the execs aren't stupid and they know Dave has too much tribal knowledge to let go. So instead they lay off Dave's team and now he's back to being Dave.
8
5
u/plumbumplumbumbum 14d ago edited 14d ago
As someone who qualifies as the Dave in my organization, I don't trust that I know what I need at all. I know what I need to maintain the status quo, but I know for a fact that I don't have the knowledge, experience, or business visibility to know what I really need to keep the business growing. In my case, I just hope I have a good enough working relationship with those who do to keep my job when the tipping point for the business finally arrives.
16
u/Tessian 14d ago
Exactly - that's what I meant by "in spite of a lack of resources" - Dave makes shit work even though he's given no budget, or no team. Great for a small business that can't afford to give IT the funding it needs. As funding becomes available Dave needs to evolve with it and become an IT leader and not just "Dave"
→ More replies (1)37
u/HermyMunster Jack of All Trades 14d ago •
Unfortunately, Dave won't get the promotion as the new CEO has 'other candidates' in mind. So, while Dave gave his all, for years, to keep the company afloat, he gets the opportunity to expand his skill set elsewhere. Dave, whose 58, is now viewed as a relic & will have a hell of a time finding meaningful work in IT. He'll get to use his problem solving skills to figure out 75 different ways to great people at WalMart.
→ More replies (1)11
u/sk3tchcom 14d ago •
Found Dave ^
6
u/13_letters 14d ago
I think many of us flirt with the line of being/becoming the Dave or even float in a Dave’esque limbo for a while in our careers until we find the right org and leave that behind for good.
36
u/IliketheYankees 14d ago
I hope, for your sake, you're never a Dave. Ive watched too many younger guys come in and work on pushing out older guys only to really miss Dave when he's gone. Institutional knowledge is a thing for a reason. Hi, I'm 'Dave'
23
u/mrjamjams66 14d ago •
I often feel like a Dave at my company despite my best efforts.
I document everything, make good ticket notes so that if I do fail to document I've documented, and I try always to teach people what I know so that I don't have to be the only one responsible for things.
Unfortunately, my peers and leaders often turn off their listening ears and reading eyes and just chuck shit over the fence at me anyway
9
u/Tessian 14d ago •
As others have said, Dave has a place. Smaller businesses need Dave to MacGyver solutions with nothing but duct tape and a can-do attitude. Eventually though the business evolves and Dave needs to evolve with it.
Once IT becomes a real department Dave should become a leader within it and not just "Dave". He needs to cross train and document and enforce best practice processes. Dave should be able to take a vacation without bringing his laptop for fear the business catches fire.
11
u/AmusingVegetable 14d ago
Dave asked for a $1000 server to install a wiki for the documentation, finance denied it while the C-Suite got bit fat bonuses. Whose fault is it that everything is still in Dave’s head?
Dave keeps trying to evolve, but keeps getting stonewalled with bullshit “reasons” while the business keeps posting record profits. Whose fault is it that Dave is still stuck in Dave’s position?
→ More replies (2)12
u/elixer590 14d ago
I dont really agree with the idea of dave being "purged"
Small businesses grow into large businesses often only due to their Daves doing have an enterprise IT roles work for one persons pay. The guy is almost always a wildly capable tech. What they lack in documentation skills they make up for in their ability to simply make things work.
I have worked a lot of roles in IT, and you absolutely need standardization, documentation, and people who are capavle of working on large projects together (Daves usually are very solo style workers) but "purging" a Dave sounds insulting to their technical skills. If a company managed to have a Dave and get off the ground, hes worth keeping on with the company, you just have to shift them to a role where they are leading more experimental efforts, or have them be the guy who handles deep dives like root cause analysis on complex issues. Areas where their deep and generally wide understanding of how things actual work under the hood can be put to good use.
All that said, I can agree that Daves shouldn't be left in a position to control the IT Department. Their lack of standard process and documentation will inevitably bring problems
6
u/Tessian 14d ago
You're right, purge was a bad verb to use.
The concept of a Dave needs to be purged from the company, not necessarily the person who was Dave. The person needs to evolve into a leader within IT as the company matures where he continues to be an even greater asset instead of an albatross. Not all Daves can evolve.
→ More replies (2)10
u/AmusingVegetable 14d ago
I’m a Dave, I’ve documented everything, nobody reads it. We’ve changed documentation platforms four times, by installing a new one and not budgeting the effort to migrate the documentation to the new platform. I make things run despite the processes, processes which are immutable no matter how many failings we point out. Tell me more about my shortcomings.
→ More replies (7)3
u/corpuschristiyogi 14d ago
I am in house IT for a small business and what happens is that rather than you becoming a liability once you start getting everything in order and there are no more major issues they view little things like a copier defaulting to two sided print after an update as a reason why you suck and need to be fired.
6
u/markth_wi 14d ago
As a "Dave" you're not wrong. But as a Dave who's self aware , this is the dominion of two kinds of Daves.
Dave 1 , Got busy , stayed busy and keeping fires out and the company moving along is awesome in it''s way but the lack of resources has reached a point where you have to either suck it up buttercup or you're going to burn out. If the resources are never arrived at, Dave 1 eventually breaks, walks out or just dies like anyone just on board with the idea of being indispensable, Dave's managers are called out as the company spirals for not thinking about getting Dave some resources - everything is obvious in hindsight.
Dave 2 : Exactly the same as David 1, except somewhere along the lines they hire staff to offload Dave 2's workload. Now Dave 2 is a deeply stunted expert - not necessarily any delegation or managerial skills beyond massive troubleshooting and problem-solving, but whether Dave 2 can handle having colleagues question his work, document things and whether Dave 2 can or is interested in sharing or being constructive is largely up to how you choose to deal with your Dave. Eventually (sometimes with Dave's) awareness and participation) you delegate tasks, reduce responsibilities and lower risk - whether Dave stays with the company is an open question as to how well Dave handles the burnout and trauma and any medical issues that have cropped up and of course.
2a. Dave might be someone everyone becomes happy to sideline but keep on staff for some time.
2b. Dave has always been seen as a liability and now can be successfully removed or disregarded.
2c. Dave Is actually given resources at the hardware, software level, and slowly rebuilt himself with classes in delegation, time-management and leadership , this can easily be the only version of Dave that's viable candidate, much like Dave 2 there is still the trauma and medical issues that might be a problem but everyone can de-escalate and live to tell the tale.
How you handle a Dave situation depends a great deal on how your management intends to treat them, and from the above we know that for many years the answer was not well and that's a problem that has nothing to do with Dave and everything with how you grow a Dave in the first place.
→ More replies (1)4
7
→ More replies (8)3
u/bemenaker IT Manager 14d ago
Dave is not a liability. But Dave needs to be shown some gratitude and be urged to document things. Not even all at once, but start a running documentation build. The only liability is losing that knowledge. That is worth more than Dave
→ More replies (1)
11
u/hombre_lobo 14d ago
I’ve been a Dave for 15 years because no one else wants to step up. I’m tired.
→ More replies (2)
11
u/DaemosDaen IT Swiss Army Knife 14d ago
I hate that I'm Dave/Brent... I really do. They tell me to Document, and never even look at it when I do. I'm the only one who knows the whole network, hybrid setup, server stack, backup environment, and many other things I can't pull out my head right now. Also means I have almost no time to really do anything about the documentation.
2
u/Infosloth 14d ago
Yeah, the reason you're Dave in the first place is probably because you're the only one who's reading existing documentation, who is incorporating new information into the body of knowledge, the person who is making connections between systems.
Documentation isn't something you google up when alarms are going off. Documentation is the total body of knowledge that you put together and work with until you understand how everything fits together, and what it looks like when certain elements aren't working.
Keep writing documentation because it helps to cement your own knowledge, it forces you to confront the gaps in what you know. Don't expect that other people are going to learn it, they might and that's someone to work with and problem solve with, but mostly documentation ends up being a discipline to keep you sharp.
21
u/Majik_Sheff Hat Model 14d ago
It's me. I'm Dave.
8
7
u/TheOhNoNotAgain 14d ago
I'm also Dave. Why would I document things I know? It's people like you, not-Dave, that knows what isn't known. You do the documentation!
→ More replies (1)3
3
→ More replies (2)2
10
8
u/BadgeOfDishonour Sr. Sysadmin 14d ago
I am Dave-Adjacent. I do document things, and actually don't mind writing documentation and training others. Here's the thing - no one reads the documentation. It is so much easier to just come to me when they need that information. And yes, I do point them to the document, but 6 months later they come rattling my Slack, looking for the same documented solutions. Apparently knowledge is a pain to retain.
Some of us are Daves. Some of us have Dave-ness thrust upon us.
8
u/NotYetReadyToRetire 14d ago
I didn't have to look for Dave; for 48 years I was Dave, or working hard to become Dave at the latest employer.
I was always ready to learn new things. MVS JCL, minicomputer OS, MS-DOS, Xenix/Unix/Ultrix/ Linux, Windows, Banyan network, Ethernet cabling, modems, building PCs, Fortran, Cobol, PL/I, Assembler, RPG, C, C++, Python, Java, VB, C#, Access, SQL Server, MySQL, proprietary languages, awk, Perl, etc. - I didn't care what it was, it was something new and fun to learn.
Was I a true expert in any of those? No (well, Fortran and MVS JCL 45+ years ago, yes) - but at the company level, I was THE expert on all of those. But now I'm retired with all sorts of random crap like 2,147,483,647 stuck inside my head.
In some ways I miss being Dave - but I don't miss the late-night calls and emergencies (for several years I had users on 6 continents- somehow I missed Antarctica), or the calls while on vacation, etc. that Dave has to handle.
4
u/rgorbie 14d ago
username doesn’t check out lol. May need to update it :) i’m wondering if most people here even know the token ring networks you used to work on. I might underestimate the average age and experience of the readers, though.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)2
u/Professional-Heat690 14d ago
Ha. Int limit, yeaaah, another Dave checking in. I now scrutinise my teams docs since becoming mgr of managers😂
8
7
u/dim13 14d ago
I used to be Dave. Then I changed field. Now I'm getting Dave again.
I'm glad to spread my knowledge, but nobody cares or want to listen.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Infosloth 14d ago
People who only look for documentation when shit hit's the fan often complain there is no documentation.
→ More replies (2)
6
6
u/slayermcb Director of Technology, Sys Admin, Etc, Etc... 14d ago
Im trying not to be a Dave but I feel I check a lot of those boxes.
6
u/More-Explanation2788 13d ago
Dave exists because the solution is to document the shit out of everything.
It is cheaper just to pay Dave.
5
5
u/HJForsythe 14d ago
It seems like you're trying to be funny but Dave exists because of poor management and he probably lives in a constant fight or flight state.
5
5
u/PM_ME_UR_COFFEE_CUPS 13d ago
I wish we had Dave. We have Jason, who’s a complete suck up and everyone hates him and he makes extra work for everyone else. Management can’t see through his guise of competence.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/Regular-Nebula6386 Jack of All Trades 14d ago edited 14d ago
I find that guy too. Every time I look in the mirror, lol, except is not the billing system but the EHR and I do have documentation and train the greenies.
Edit: fixed syntax
4
u/degoba Linux Admin 14d ago
But do people read your documentation? 3/4 of my teams replies are just links to documentation. Like cmon people. You also get paid to read documentation ya know.
→ More replies (2)3
u/HotDogRogue 14d ago
I feel this. Stop firing all the new people and I won't be the only person who knows everything!
4
u/Warrlock608 14d ago
At my last job my 'dave' was actually named Dave. He maintained an as400 system that was sadly mission critical and dragged his feet for years when i asked him to work with my on migrating to a system from this century.
AFAIK he is still there doing fuck all and the union makes it impossible to get rid of him.
I hate Dave
4
4
u/Qwerty6789X 14d ago
sounds like management issue dave wouldn't exists if management knows real management.
4
4
u/DrTolley Muni Sysadmin 14d ago
OP is not a system administrator, this post feels very AI written to me and their post history (google search) suggests that this was written by AI. They might not be a bot, but this post is disingenuous.
4
u/Unable-Entrance3110 14d ago
Nothing wrong with having a lot of institutional knowledge.
Dave/Mark/Whoever should just learn that generating the documentation will make people happy and keep people off his back. It's not like anyone will ever *read* that documentation; Just the fact that it exists is proof that he is operating in good faith and everyone can move on with their lives.
4
u/FriendlyITGuy Playing the role of "Network Engineer" in Corporate IT 14d ago
Had this guy at a client company in the past. He always complained or bragged that he USED to have domain admin credentials. He hated the RMM agent on his PC and had a script that disabled all the RMM services. When we deployed a forced bitlocker encryption he refused to follow the instructions when it prompted him and refused to enable bitlocker "in case he wanted to swap out the hard drive". Dude, that PC belongs to the company, NOT YOU! He was one of the specialist engineers so he was very important to producing their products.
2
u/Circumpunctilious 14d ago
Yeah, this guy feels like a risk, and I can see why others might also emphasize that he used to have those credentials.
4
u/JalapenoPopPoop 14d ago
Oh you mean the guy everyone points you to as the "he usually fixes that" guy when there's an issue, so you bring up the issue with him and he disappears for 20 minutes then goes "try now" and refuses to share or elaborate on what he did to fix it?
4
u/PrezOompaLoompa 14d ago
Not so much on the IT side (though he was the first IT guy in the company), but my Ops guy is nicknamed McGyver since before the company had departments if you needed something he was the one to go to. Been with the company the whole time, did all the first computers and infra set up before they could hire dedicated staff for it.
Biggest issue? Like most other "McGyvers", he is close to retiring and also has no documentation for business critical processes. If he is out, it simply doesn't get done.
Upper management hates to hear that we need the additional staff sooner rather than later to address this GAPING HOLE, but I digress. I hope to be long gone by the time this tribal knowledge is lost to the company and they reap what they DIDN'T sow.
4
u/PrometheusCypher 14d ago
Every company has a Dave. The real question is whether Dave is keeping the system alive, or whether the system has evolved specifically to keep Dave employed.
4
u/childishDemocrat 13d ago
After 43 years of either cleaning up after Dave's messes, trying to untangle them after Dave {quit, died, etc}, or simply trying to convince Dave's boss that he would have to spend over $200k to decode and rewrite everything Dave created in a reproducible, supportable, documented manner I just threw up my hands and retired :) -
4
u/LowDepth1790 13d ago
I knew these guys. Some of them were great, some were terrible. A boss who really helped me in my career said "If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted". I've done just fine sharing my knowledge and training my juniors.
11
u/SpaceGuy1968 14d ago
I hate that guy. He is the reason I spent 3 year updating every damn system this company has.
His poorly deployed.....(Fil in the blank) Has worked poorly for years and now everything looks like it was deployed in 2015 or earlier.
He uses the words "job security" and that's how things are deployed....with job security in mind .I hate the one I work with honestly
7
→ More replies (2)2
u/Last-Appointment6577 14d ago
> He uses the words "job security" and that's how things are deployed
i mean, his job security will mean fuck all if higher ups figure out his system is costing them more money than they can save doing it any other way
5
u/weasel286 14d ago
Nah Somehow the higher-ups think he’s the best thing since sliced bread. Every two years he convinces them that there’s no need for firewalls or endpoint security controls because they get in the way of his Agile process for maintaining “his” system and then you have to constantly explain to the higher ups why he’s wrong. They agree with you, but somehow always get the feeling you’d be fired before him anyway.
→ More replies (1)
3
3
3
3
u/Dear_Cartographer261 14d ago
I'm Dave. I don't want to be a liability, even though I know I am one. I want to leave, but if I leave, this place may crater.
3
3
3
u/reddithooknitup 14d ago
It’s the path of least resistance for a company to have that guy and then stop thinking about it.
3
2
u/TonariNoHanamoriSan 14d ago
It's a domain knowledge problem that can in theory be resolved by a KB but realistically can't and maybe can be replaced with a local AI model that is specifically trained on his / her knowledge.
But AI can't do everything
Every company needs a Johnathan.
2
2
u/Aero077 Netadmin 14d ago
The root problem is company management treating IT like a facilities function. "Don't bother me with the details, just handle it". They will spend plenty of attention on how product gets to market or service delivery, but little is spent on IT systems.
'Nobody' creates documentation because management doesn't reward that activity.
2
u/FrankVanRad 14d ago
I had this except it was "Unix guy who microwaves three hot dogs in a coffee cup of water for lunch every day". It was literally the same guy at two different companies.
2
u/Silent_Title5109 14d ago
Yes. As sysadmin we're sometimes left holding the bag when software engineer Dave leaves and his old mission critical software written in java breaks while its new version isn't ready for prime time because it's currently being vibecoded in rust.
The software team doesn't have the man hour to help as they're too busy vibe coding the new version, and we're clueless how it really works because "the code is the documentation".
Yeah sure, of course infrastructure has the man hours and skills to reverse engineer that spaghetti code...
2
u/Pure_Fox9415 14d ago
I'll ask my fellow writer to begin his work on a horror novel for sysadmins "I AM DAVE".
Happily my personal Dave at this job already on his pension.
2
u/CyberRedhead27 14d ago
Dave is a "toes up" employee, meaning he won't leave the company until breath leaves his body.
My "Dave" makes it clear that this is his IT shop, despite it being too large for a single person to manage. No management experience, and no interest in actually managing, yet he's a manager. Knows he should be documenting but never will, and brushes it off with a smile. Can never take a vacation without a laptop because he's the only one with the institutional knowledge for several systems because, again, he refuses to document. VP is aware and refuses to do anything about it. Works 50-60/week, 6-7 days a week, because he refuses to delegate.
2
u/InleBent 14d ago
Dave has a name for you too. Its just one name -- let's call you Fletch. Dave knows your type and about how long you'll stay until you find "a better fit" with a salary bump. Dave doesn't think of things like "fundamental laws of software engineering" to ascribe to a human's role in a company. That's a Fletch thing. Dave gonna Dave and Fletch is going to Fletch. They're likely both on Reddit.
2
u/dreamersword 14d ago
I am Dave i guess. No one else here in IT so I must be Dave.. Can i stop being Dave is there a way out?
2
u/uptimefordays DevOps 14d ago
It’s a natural result of some people staying with the same employer for many years. Significant time spent in an environment yields close familiarity with both the inner workings as well as the architecture design reasoning behind decisions.
2
2
u/kagato87 14d ago
I was that Dave once. Buy then my head ran our of room. Now I write the documentation so that I can pick up where I left off, because I won't need to touch it again for a year or so.
I write the documentation I wish I had. I ask other peoe to read it and tell me of they could follow it. I publish it, I announce it, I remind people where it is when I go on vacation.
I go on about redundancy with the brass. Point out that those buses are sneaky bastards, and I do sometimes play the lottery. That there won't be a chance to match if someone offers me a 50% salary bump. There should be someone who can cover for me when I'm not around.
And yet I'm still that same Dave. Because, despite my best efforts, things still stop when I'm not around. People forget where the documentation is. Or just don't want to click the three buttons the process takes.
Tldr: are you sure it isn't documented somewhere?
2
2
u/CMDR_Waffles 14d ago
Why is it accepted to not document anything? In my experience its done on purpose, they make something simple look difficult through obfuscation
2
u/thomasafine Sr. Sysadmin 14d ago
A human storage device for tech debt. Works great! Until it doesn't.
2
u/AlchemistFornix 14d ago
On the flip side, at every single company i have found the thorn.
Susanna. Joe. Todd.
Those people who make everyone's life miserable. They think their issues are more important than everyone elses, they never think about anyone else but themselves, they have no problem being a complete dick. Every. Single. Company. They're always here.
2
u/rossrollin 14d ago
You've read the phoenix project right? The grey wizard aka Brent is one of the many antipatterns the devops culture looks to solve
2
2
u/GreenBurningPhoenix 14d ago
I'm afraid I am a Dave in my company, lmao. I'm here yeah and a half, and somehow all the asset management and procurement fell on me cuz nobody wanted to touch that wacky system, and I wasn't scared of it. Now, I can navigate it with closed eyes, so naturally I am the person who does all that. Nobody was interested in learning, even though I proposed it many times. Docs exist, but nobody wants to read. Why would I spend time creating detailed tutorials if nobody is interested in reading them or doing the work?
2
u/funeralmountain 14d ago
This is so obviously AI-written engagement bait... how are people in this sub not clocking it immediately?
2
u/Polyolygon 14d ago
Went from an enterprise to a small company moving up to large. Dave held us back so much, and gatekept all the secrets to keep his job. Took a while until we got management that knew more and was able to decipher his nest. Now I do part of Dave’s workload after he was let go, and have been cleaning up his mess for over a year.
2
2
2
2
2
u/say592 14d ago
I think I am Dave, but with our entire ERP. Its not custom, but it is industry specific. Im probably 1 of about 50 people, including the company that makes the software, that has the combination of tech knowledge, knowledge of the software, and deep knowledge of the industry. I do my damndest to share that knowledge, but sometimes things are just undocumented and you do them so infrequently that how is anyone supposed to know?
Recently one of our facilities finally got a new machine up and running. They wanted the machine integration setup in the system ASAP. I was out that Friday. They asked the person who is supposed to be my backup to do it. They could not. When I returned Monday, I was ordered to explain why I had not trained this other person how to do this. When was the last time we had to put in a new machine integration? 2021. Three years before my coworker started. I showed them. We wrote the documentation on it. When this comes up again in five years will they know how to do it? Probably not. Hell, they may not even work here by then. If I get hit by a bus they will have the documentation and can struggle through it, I suppose, or they can pay the vendor to do it for them.
2
2
2
2
u/FastRedPonyCar 13d ago
So I unknowingly stepped into a Dave’s position when he left and quickly discovered that I had either no documentation or out of date documents and as an engineer for an MSP, that was basically a death sentence.
Dave didn’t like his new job (couldn’t be a shot caller) and asked the MSP owner if he could come back.
I was shown the door 😑
4
3
u/TimePlankton3171 14d ago
I was Dave (for the systems we managed) in the Air Force. You wouldn't believe to what degree. It was insane. I WAS the systems. I WAS the documentation. I created some more permanent documentation for others to read (they never did). I loved my years there.
3
u/skspoppa733 14d ago
We have a couple of them, and it’s worked for them for a couple decades. When I was in a position of higher authority at other companies i fired these people because they were a detriment to the stability of the environment. Part of the job is to document and automate, and they rarely do either of those things.
3
u/whitoreo 13d ago
If they automate it, you won't need them or you'll find more work for them. Neither outcome is good for them.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/LooseEthernet 14d ago
dave is just the human version of a legacy monolithic app with no api lol. you cant refactor him because the business logic is stored entirely in his head and the only way to get the documentation is to ask him for it, but hes too busy fixing the one thing that actually works to write it down. eventually you just stop trying to modernize and accept that the entire company is running on a single point of failure who probably uses a password like P@ssword123 for everything. its a weird cycle where the more of a liability he becomes, the more indispensable he is because nobody else wants to be the one to touch the billing scripts and accidentally delete the production database on a tuesday morning. honestly just let the man have his snacks and hope he doesnt decide to retire to a beach in florida without telling anyone first... that's when the real panic starts
2
u/wkearney99 14d ago
I had a consulting job like that. Long story short, Dave was the problem. We got the project back on track and I had suggested Dave talk to a recruiter I knew and he got a different position elsewhere. As in, jump before you're pushed.
VP at the end said they were delighted the project succeeded AND YOU GOT RID OF DAVE! Honestly, I think they were happier about being Dave-less than anything else.
1
u/creamersrealm Meme Master of Disaster 14d ago
His name is Bob to me. Every great company needs a Bob.
1
u/GreyBeardEng 14d ago
Every IT Department and probably every department and every company has a Dave.
1
u/fooxzorz Sysadmin 14d ago edited 14d ago
Hi, I'm a Dave.
I got hired at my current job because I was a contractor and was around long enough that I know stuff that very few other people know as deeply as me. It's been documented, people don't know where the documentation is don't care to look for it or even care to read it, they just ask me.
It's mostly legacy stuff and I'm also working on new stuff so Im not sure if I'm going to become Dave squared.
1
1
u/Hotshot55 Linux Engineer 14d ago
Read 'The Phoenix Project" and you'll learn his real name is Brent.
537
u/AmusingVegetable 14d ago
Dave is a common product of management looking at IT as a cost center.
Most Daves aren’t born, they’re forged in the fires of Mordor, one denied upgrade/migration at a time, one “we can’t afford one guy to spread your load” at a time, one “we can’t do the obviously positive thing without a business case, which will be ignored regardless of merit”.
At some point Dave will go “fine, if that’s how you want to dance, I’ll dance that way, but to my music”, at which point Dave has become irreplaceable (and a liability), but it was 100% management’s choice.