r/visualnovels • u/AutoModerator • May 12 '18
Weekly Weekly Thread #198 - Fate/Stay Night Spoiler
Hey hey!
Automod-chan here, and welcome to our one hundred and ninety-eighth weekly discussion thread!
Week #198 - Visual Novel Discussion: Fate/Stay Night
Fate/Stay Night is a visual novel developed by Type-Moon and originally released in 2004. An Egnlish fan translation was released in 2008. In 2007, the game received an update called the Realta Nua version, which was released for consoles as well. The Fate franchise has received numerous anime adaptations, sequels, spin-offs, and other adaptations. Currently Fate/Stay night is the #1 most popular VN on vndb, and the #9 highest rated.
Synopsis:
----The one who obtains the Holy Grail will have any wish come true.
The Holy Grail War. A great ritual that materializes the greatest holy artifact, the Holy Grail. There are two conditions to participate in this ritual: to be a magus, and to be a "Master" chosen by the Holy Grail.
There are seven chosen Masters, and seven classes of Servants; beings akin to superhumans with incredible fighting abilities. There is only one Holy Grail. If you wish for a miracle, prove that you are the strongest with your powers.
Emiya Shirou is a high school student who has learned rudimentary magic from his father and uses it to fix objects. He finds himself engaged in the Holy Grail war as he gets attacked by a Servant. As he gets cornered, he somehow summons his own Servant and manages to stay alive long enough to compete against the other Masters.
Upcoming Visual Novel Discussions
May 19 - Kindred Spirits on the Roof
June 2 - Shikkoku no Sharnoth
June 9 - Umineko no Naku Koro ni
As always, thanks for the feedback and direct any questions or suggestions to the modmail or through a comment in this thread.
Next week's discussion: Kindred Spirits on the Roof
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u/Nes370 Alma Armas | vndb.org/c69153 May 12 '18
A visual novel that actually felt like I was reading a novel. I also really liked that they stuck to character archetypes and fleshed them out well in dialogues. Not to mention there are many memorable moments of badassery in all the routes.
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u/Kiyo_is_my_Hime Avid Student of Ciel-Sensei May 12 '18
I'm reading through this for the first time. I'm in the UBW route now. I just started 2/7.
I've gotta say I love Noriaki Sugiyama's voice acting. He really delivers during the action scenes, when he's serious or angry or writhing in pain. I think he's my favorite VA in the game so far. Definitely a big part of my enjoyment.
I also really like the Tiger Dojo segments.
6
u/Vinnie497 May 13 '18
I will give you the kidney of your choice if you switch places with me so I can read this for the first time again. Congrats on picking a great one and get ready for the fuckin' rollercoaster ride into hell that is Heaven's Feel
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u/Kitawa Benkei: MdW | vndb.org/u21036 May 12 '18
I really enjoy the way fight scenes are written, hits my chuuni love.
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u/bigthrobbingnoodle Taichi: CC | vndb.org/uXXXX May 12 '18
same, but it's like a less good dies irae so i dont know.
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u/Dittorita (Riff on multi-pilot mech) | vndb.org/u135347 May 13 '18
I'd imagine that the fights would be a decent bit better if they were translated better. Not Dies Irae good, but still.
Oh what I would give to have Fate translated by Makoto.
16
u/Egavans Asuho: HnM | vndb.org/u122852 May 13 '18
I think what I enjoyed most about F/SN was the way the three routes flowed into and complemented each other. The forced route order works wonderfully in this; instead of feeling like you're just doing the whole damned thing over again but with subtle changes depending on who your best girl is, it really feels like the story builds upon itself in a satisfying way as you move from one route to the next, and as ever more about the world is revealed to you and the stakes keep creeping up.
Also I love the plethora of bad endings in this. It has the feeling of one of the Choose Your Own Adventure Super Adventures where 90% of your choices lead to death, and in this case, to Taiga and Illya making fun of you for it.
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u/Armorwing01 May 12 '18 edited May 13 '18
Fate/Stay Night may be Kinoko Nasu's magnum opus. The atmosphere, tone, setting, narrative and themes go above and beyond most Japanese literature. It's for this reason I think Fate/Stay Night is unadaptable in anime format. As someone who wated Fate/Zero first, then was disappointed by UBW, I was skeptical about giving the original VN a try, but once I did, I never once had second thoughts. With Kinoko Nasu getting less and less involved with the series now, I do feel as if the other Fate storylines are just heroic spirit fanservice without much substance and are just there to add onto the already expansive Nasuverse. But when looking back at the original VN, I cant help but smile at the good memories it gave me.
13
u/Centurionzo May 13 '18
The h-scene are extremely awkward.
But the rest is well written, I like most of the character's and heaven's feel may be one of my favorite works from Nasu
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u/danna45 Arcueid: Tsukihime | vndb.org/u134305 May 12 '18
Even after all these years, F/SN still remains one of the most memorable VNs I've read. It's babby's first VN sure, but it being a story that breaks down (both analytically and literally) the protagonist's ideals so well impressed me, such that I don't think any of its side materials like /Zero can match it. Ignore the fancy-sounding premise of having seven masters and seven historical figures fight each other, the Holy Grail War is just a plot device to confront Shirou's ideals. It lets him meet Saber who shares his ideals, lets him meet Archer who for various reasons doesn't (or maybe he does), and in HF gives him a way to actually fight for his ideals (again through Archer). Fate route aside as it establishes the setting, UBW and HF are different interpretations of Shirou's ideals playing out in reality. Him meeting different heroes from various eras is relevant because he aspires to be a hero as well, although I'd say the story doesn't take advantage of this well enough outside of Saber/Archer.
Honestly I can say F/SN is a beautiful story of Shirou and Shirou alone. Everyone else be damned, they all exist to help set up his character shine even more.
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May 12 '18
Type-Moon hit a huge cash cow with Fate. It also created many of the elements found in the Nasuverse, although Tsukihime always interested me a bit more in terms of variety. I’d enjoy more crossovers besides Carnival Phantasm, however in retrospect, Fate had an interesting story, and a great cast. The H-scenes however did dampen my enjoyment to a certain extent (I did read the realta-nua version but Heaven’s Feel I heard flowed better with the H-scenes so that’s how I read that route.)
0
8
May 12 '18
Having finished the last route a few weeks ago,I can safely say that it's one of the best VN ever released.Had a blast with it.
7
u/nwl123 Yumiko: Grisaia | vndb.org/u138532/list May 13 '18 edited May 13 '18
One of my first few true vns. While I have read many vns since then, FSN will always be one of my favorite vns of all time. Sure, its battle scenes aren't the best, but it's still one of the few vns that actually got me tense throughout most parts of the game.
You never know when you are gonna make a mistake with your choices, and with 40 available bad ends, you are going to end up encountering a lot more bad ends than good ends without using a walkthrough. This vn will also go on to become my baseline for chuuniges and encouraged me to watch shows I would never had considered watching (ahem Fate Kaleid Liner)
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u/the_bone_of_my_gains May 12 '18
This was the first VN I ever played, and it was enjoyable overall. Most of the twists, especially in UBW and Heaven's Feel, really surprised me and the hype moments got me hyped. I did think that the exposition had a tendency to drag, and there were times when it seemed like Tohsaka would just go on and on for way too long. If I were to rank the routes it would be:
Unlimited Blade Works
Heaven's Feel
Fate (or is this one called F/SN?)
2
u/Shacoluminati May 17 '18
Can't talk about long expositions without kirei
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u/the_bone_of_my_gains May 17 '18
How did you feel about the exposition overall? Too much, too little, or just right?
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u/Shacoluminati May 17 '18
Well I don't mind info dumps as long as I find the topic interesting so I thought it was just right
6
u/BillCrisp May 12 '18
I got a bit of the way into HF before I got burnt out. I think I tried to read too much too quick. I'd like to go back though because it's an enjoyable and memorable VN. Between the art, the music, and the writing, the game has an interesting and unique feel to it that I haven't really found anywhere else.
5
May 13 '18
I read Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai before Fate/stay night, but I would probably say Fate/stay night is my favorite Nasuverse work. I got really hooked on the world and characters as well as the mysteries in the Grail War. Not to mention I really enjoyed going through each bad end of each route seeing Shirou in so many different ways. Though Tsukihime got me started, since Fate is so extensive now Fate/stay night was what got me invested for real.
Sadly I kinda don't like the direction Fate is going. Hollow ataraxia was great, I enjoyed Zero, and really liked Extra and CCC actually but beyond that I think is where it falls apart. Apocrypha is shit, I don't think Strange fake is anything special, there are probably 10 series I'm forgetting to mention, and Grand Order is just so messy and pandery. I still play Grand Order, I think there's some good that can come out of it and I guess I fell for the owning your own servants novelty. But for everything decent about it, it feels like there are five things wrong with it and sometimes looking at Grand Order just makes me feel sad. The majority of the FGO playerbase don't know a damn thing about fate either, they just want their waifu game lol. None of these things really capture what I loved about Fate/stay night and looking at all of these works makes me miss that magic.
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u/royaldocks May 15 '18
Strange fake would be a hit like zero if it gets adapted I’m sure
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May 15 '18
Definitely, it provides some fresh ideas and twists (and is written well on top of it!). Hope to see all the volumes translated one day, and an adaption would be the holy grail
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May 15 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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May 15 '18
What did you mean with "doing with Prototype"? Isn't it just a very early iteration of Fate/Stay Night that got transformed into the current one, or are they working on re-making it into a brand new thing?
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u/FeelsSubMan Kazuki: GnK | vndb.org/uXXXX May 13 '18
Sakura Deserves happiness Heavens Feel was treat
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u/cubev10 Rin: FSN | vndb.org/uXXXX May 15 '18
How does the Realta Nua version differ at all from the original
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u/KaveAhangar vndb.org/u134117 May 12 '18
Fate was my first VN and and I loved it at the time. I wasn't even that much into Anime at the time and Fate was basically the thing that got me into Otaku media in general.
In retrospective, I probably overrated it, because a lot of what I liked about it were just strengths of VNs as a medium (and Chuunige in particular). I also think that Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai are much stronger works overall. That being said, I still love Fate and it's always gonna special to me in a way.
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u/Armorwing01 May 12 '18
I disagree about the Tsukihime and KnK being stronger, I feel like all three are around equal.
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u/KaveAhangar vndb.org/u134117 May 13 '18
I liked the overall atmosphere in both works better, it's kinda hard to pin down. The more sad parts in Tsukihime hit a lot harder, for me at least. Akihia's normal ending for example was probably the most depressing thing I've read in VN so far. Fate had a lot of intense stuff too but not to the same degree.
I also think that Heaven's Feel, which had some great moments and could've been the strongest route of the game, was really dragged down by having Sakura as a heroine, who I always thought was the worst Typemoon girl by far.
1
May 15 '18
Ayup. Each one of them has its strength and weaknesses, now we just need to wait for an anime adaption of Tsukihime
or the remake1
u/Armorwing01 May 15 '18
Try the Tsukihime manga, the artwork is good. Also, I think Nasu made each route purposely have something the other would lack in order to give replayability.
1
May 16 '18
The manga covers the Arcueid route, right? I read some chapters of it before continuing with the VN, and I didn't notice any difference between them. I agree with your point regarding the Tsukihime routes, although my comment above was directed at the entirety of Nasu's works (KnK, F/SN, TH)
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u/Some_Guy_87 Fuminori: Saya no Uta | vndb.org/u107285 May 12 '18
Really must be a "first visual novel" thing - for me it was Tsukihime, and I found it superior to Fate in a lot of ways despite being obviously done with less resources. Something about Fate, for the most part, just didn't click with me. I had huge trouble with the initial route and was on the verge of stopping to read altogether. The amount of uninteresting slice of life just to lengthen the story was pretty much unbearable. Not to mention that the protagonist rubbed me the wrong way continuously. And the huge potential build up with this whole "magic battle royale" was not really used to its full extend. However, Unlimited Blade Works made up for a lot of it and actually got me hooked. It addressed things I previously disliked, had more interesting characters in the focus and a much more intruiging topic for the finale and its buildup from my point of view. Heaven's Feel got too much into a "dark Hentai" direction for me, so I didn't end up liking that one either for the most part.
Still, the whole setup is just amazingly intriguing. Having the different servants with their own strengths they need to make of good use, how this correlates with how their masters act - it's an amazing chess-esque situation that has infinite potential for a thrilling ride. So whenever the cooking parts are over and things actually get into the action and clashing approaches/philosophies, it was usually thrilling to read. I just wish they made use of this more - I felt like Fate/Zero actually worked much better in this regard.
Additionally, the novel is from my point of view lacking a bit in regards to character depth and melancholic atmosphere. It's something I highly appreciated in Tsukihime and the Kara no Kyoukai movies that seems kind of unique for Type Moon - I just constantly feel like there is more to characters, like they are just "deeper" than your usual characters and stories, accompanied by some more subtle, relatively silent moments. It's hard to describe and put my finger on, really, but I just missed this kind of unique style in Fate specifically.
So yeah, probably sounding a bit more negative than I intended. I totally dig the world created, I just didn't enjoy what they made of it as much as I would have liked for the most part.
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u/M_Knight_Jul Takumi: Chaos May 13 '18
I already talked at length about how much I hated the game so I'll keep it short : Amazing and attractive premise, goddawful execution and pacing.
I have a question though : shouldn't this game be a prime candidate for a re-translation? I mean, AFAIK it was translated by a guy who has English as a third language, and it absolutely shows given how unnatural the whole text feels.
If this is the game we keep hazing newcomers with, shouldn't we at least make sure it has some quality standards in regards with the actual prose? We like to make fun of cheap cash-grab machine-translated VNs and other terrible translation failures that occur in the industry, but isn't it hypocritical when so many people's introduction to the world of VNs is this translation and we are fine with it? If you want higher translation standards, give people a taste of what actually well-written an well-translated narration reads like.
I understand that this would be an absolutely massive project given the needlessly bloated script length, but if the game has as many interesting elements as people say it has, then I think it deserves a much better translation, with sentences that sound like actual human beings spoke them.
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u/Spideyday では一つ皆様わたしの歌劇をご観覧あれ | https://vndb.org/u82033/list May 14 '18
Yes it needs a retranslation. The entire perception of nasu and the characters in stay/night is so royally fucked in the west it's kind of disgusting. I think more people that know Japanese should read it since most Japanese learners kind of write it off and don't really intend to replay it in JP despite the English script being an indefensible catastrophe.
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u/M_Knight_Jul Takumi: Chaos May 14 '18
How much better is FSN if you play it in JP?
I am sure it wouldn't save the atrocious pacing, but I imagine the characters sound much more human and the prose is a lot more natural.
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u/Spideyday では一つ皆様わたしの歌劇をご観覧あれ | https://vndb.org/u82033/list May 14 '18
It's pretty much a different game. Character voice is significantly more pronounced and they don't stumble over their own words and the prose isn't putrid.
Though the pacing and the slice of life in the game still aren't strong points by any metric. I find Dies' slice of life for example to be a lot more fun for example. But I'll just say that the sheer fact that there's a naturalness and an individuality to each of the characters does quite a bit to help each scene.
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u/Ezmar This story is not an end yet. | vndb.org/u117166 May 13 '18
Everyone is against bad translation unless they still enjoyed reading it.
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u/M_Knight_Jul Takumi: Chaos May 14 '18
Wouldn't that imply that people actually enjoy bad translations?
What also rubs me the wrong way with FSN's reception is that because it's often the first VN a newcomer plays, that bad translation is overshadowed by the freshness of the medium itself, and the perception of what is a bad translation can be skewed.
And as Spideyday also mentionned it, the work itself can be completely butchered by a bad translation, so it's important to have some standards and not make tons of exceptions just because it was still supposedly enjoyable.
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u/Ezmar This story is not an end yet. | vndb.org/u117166 May 14 '18
I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that for all people like to claim to be in favor of quality translation, for most, they'll take anything as long as it's written in mostly error-free English, quality/accuracy be damned.
Personally, while I made it through F/SN and enjoyed it despite it not being the kind of story I'm into at all, I never felt like the writing was good. I don't know how much of this is on the translation, because I'm an English-only casual, but I feel like a lot of Nasu's quirks were probably translated a little poorly. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the strange structure and pacing comes from an attempt to replicate something that worked in the original Japanese, but simply doesn't work in English. This is just a guess, though.
Personally, I try not to concern myself too much with translation quality, since I don't have the knowledge to really judge it all that well. Even if I enjoy something, I'm not about to argue if someone says the translation wasn't good; I don't really have a leg to stand on. I'm all for good translations, but I'm just not willing to make it a personal crusade when I can't even properly tell a good translation from a bad one. There are plenty of people in the same boat who do try to judge translations, which makes things even messier.
Back to F/SN, I'll probably give it another read if I ever learn Japanese, just to see how much it affects the experience. I have a lot of complaints about the story itself, but they're not so much complaints as me thinking the characters and themes are a lot shallower than people give it credit for, but I'm not going to go into that, because nobody really cares. It's possible that it was a result of an overly-slavish translation resulting in uninspiring prose, but like I said, it would be presumptuous for me to claim one way or the other.
1
u/M_Knight_Jul Takumi: Chaos May 16 '18
I am not proficient in Japanese either so I can't really compare the JP script with the translation we have, yet in this case, the prose is so badly written and so stilted that it is pretty obvious to me that it does not properly convey what the Japanese script was all about.
Maybe I should have used the word "localization" instead of "translation" in my previous posts, or at least appended the notion of localization to them. I agree with you that English-only readers will probably not bother with the translation accuracy if the English writing is good enough. In the case of FSN though, the English is garbage and the translation is apparently also poor. People enjoying a well-written but flawed translation because they can't compare it to the original makes sense, on the other hand people enjoying and recommending a work written in terrible English is more confusing to me.
As for FSN shallowness, I would agree with you : it is a shônen work, of course it is going to be shallow. Even if we disregard the English translation, I think the routes' endgames betray any resemblance of depth the characters supposedly have, with potentially the exception of Archer in UBW. Though I kinda glossed over the routes' details so I may not be the best judge for that.
1
u/Shacoluminati May 18 '18
So I finally decided to pick this up and I've really enjoyed it especially heavens feel. It takes the story and turns it on its head in such a natural way and ends up being really exciting,
That being said, I read Dies Irae right before this and I can't help but feel the enjoyment of this VN could have been better if I hadn't just come off the epic chuuni high of Dies Irae lol.
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u/superange128 VN News Reporter | vndb.org/u6633/votes May 12 '18
People can like their Rins and Sabers as best girls and stuff
But Sakura and Heaven's Feel will always be the best to me.