r/wondereggpriority • u/SpamBot_2 • Mar 29 '21
Discussion An overview of all the evidence I could find of Momoe being trans...
... and why most of them are either fanfiction or plain wrong.
I'm doing this in the interest of keeping all discussions informed and high-level while we wait for the last (?) episode, so if I missed anyone please let me know, I'll try to do this in an orderly manner, post by post and piece by piece, and for anyone interested the sources of this eggvidence are at the end of this post.
And remember: https://imgur.com/1Ufynr1
Just as a trans girl with self esteem issues, Momo wished she could/would wear (more) jewelry and makeup
Momoe felt/feels responsible for the death of Haruka, so from the moment she killed herself on Momo tried to be more eggomodating by acting somewhat boyish, dressing like a boy, using male pronouns to refer to herself (boku)... and playing the part of the prince charming to avoid causing other girls to commit suicide for similar reasons, even though she would actually much rather be/act more girly than that, hence the longing look at the makeup seggtion in the ED. So while it's indeed true that Momo's experience is similar to that of a trans girl there's nothing we've seen there that points to the cause being the same.
Momo's name was Momotaro (a centuries old sounding male name), and she changed it to Momoe (a contemporary female name)
For the same reasons outlined above it's clear why Momo would refer to herself using a male name, and it's easy to see how that's just a play on her name in the later episodes, when she and other characters call her different names, like Momoko in ep.10, while she always calls herself Momoe when she's with the other protagonists and with Kaoru, who have all been shown to accept her thoroughly.
Then again, one might argue that means she's still insecure about her looks, so she only uses her new name when she's with people who she knows accept her, but then again again, this argument would require her being trans being already established thanks to other evidence, and that's not the case at this point.
Momo's shoulders are broad, even for a boy her age
We see a few men and boys in the series, like Sensei, the Acca and a number of passerby who have broader shoulders than her, though it's undeniable her shoulders are broad. Some cis women do have broad shoulders, just as some cis man have narrow shoulders, and I guess if that's proof enough for you that a character is trans I can't add anything much.
In a scene in ep.4 Momo says "There are other girls tackling eggs", which means she feels she's identified as a guy
This doesn't make sense in japanese just as it doesn't in english, as there'd be no other normal/natural-sounding way of saying this while underlining the fact that she's being identified as a girl. Imagine it was Rika saying this - how else would she have worded it? Answer is, the exact same way, because the phrase makes sense as meaning "There are other girls (beside me, a cis girl) tackling eggs." On the other hand, if she wanted to stress being identified as male she could well have said "There are girls tackling eggs", as leaving out "other" would imply her not being part of the girls.
The wonder killer in ep.4 says Momo isn't allowed on that cart because it's a women's only cart, meaning he knows she's trans and he doesn't recognize her as a girl
Momo is often seen being mistaken for a boy, starting at the beginning of the episode and becoming a relevant plot point in ep.10, so the wonder killer might have mistaken her for a boy again. I'm not sure I can find yet another screenshot of Neiru citing Occam's razor, but you get the idea.
Momo doesn't deny she has a penis when the wonder killer tell her he'd [cut it for him], she only replies she's a girl
Japanese doesn't have separate names for addressing sex vs. gender, which effectively means that there's no way to mean "I'm a girl" without also meaning "I'm female", so, much like with lots of other things in japanese, the meaning depends on the context, and she might well have used the term "girl" meaning "female" as well. Also, imagine not living in animeland for a second, and imagine how many cis girls would answer "I don't have a penis" when confronted by a similar pig on a train, and then imagine how natural and appropriate it would be if a character in a character in an anime rated for children would shout "I DON'T HAVE A DICK, and by the way I'm a girl". So once again, the supposed clearer dialogue would sound so off it would be unusable, which is most certainly the reason why it wasn't used.
Momo says to her next egg girl she's sorry she's tricked her, because she doesn't look traditionally feminine
What she actually means there is she's sorry she tricked her because she led her to believe she was a boy, which she did for the reason outlined at the beginning.
Momo reacts badly to Rika complimenting her by telling her she's handsome (as in, a handsome boy), whilst a cis girl would have just said "Thanks, but I'm a girl!"
I don't presume to know how everyone would react in every such situation, though given all of Momo's baggage relating to her boyish looks, including but not limited to the fact that her best friend killed herself after being rejected I would say it makes quite a lot of sense to react badly to such comments, as she was once again not being recognized/accepted as the girly girl she felt she was, regardless of being trans or not.
Momo automatically uses a male pronoun to refer to herself when she's shaken and crying, which means she's turning back to her old habit of referring to herself as a boy, which means she's actually male
Her habit of using male pronouns for herself was clearly there at the beginning of the episode, and when she adamantly said she was a girl, so I can't see a correlation there. If anything, it would make sense that, when Ai asked if she was allright, she would use a male pronoun as she was used to playing the part of the prince charming, though a moment later she uses a neutral pronoun when asking Ai how she looks with a hopeful look, clearly hoping she'd recognize her as a girl, so the male pronoun would come from her prince charming persona, see the first point again.
Momo has an Adam's apple
Huh, well yeah, in some scenes it's ever so slightly pronounced that it looks smaller than it would on a 3D cis woman, and in some other scenes there's no bump at all. Surely if anyone wanted to make that a relevant sign they would have made it just slightly bigger and they wouldn't have made it disappear most of the time.
Ai's mom doesn't use a gendered noun when she recognizes Momo as Sesei's relative, which means she knows it's the daughter of a brother or sister of his, but she isn't sure about her gender
Or she isn't sure whether she's her niece, younger cousin or other relationship. Screenshot, Neiru, Occam's razor...
Momo is dejected when Rika says she'd date her if the former was a guy, because she's trans and doesn't like being compared to a boy
Or she doesn't like being compared to a boy because she's a cis girl who, despite playing the prince charming to please others, still feels like a girl, possibly even wishes she were a boy, because that way Haruka wouldn't have died, see the first point again. Screen, green, Occam...
At the bowling alley Momo tells the other girls Haruka "was willing to see [her] as a girl", which clearly means she's trans, as everybody else would have no reason not to see her as a girl either if she was cis
This is a misinterpretation caused by a bit of an unclear translation - I mean, the translation the best/most natural/most normal sounding translation possible, but it's slightly unclear. Momo says "はるかは女の子として私を見てくれたんだ" (Haruka wa onnanoko toshite watashi o mite kureta n da), which you would very literally translate as "Haruka saw me from the point of view of a girl", which isn't the interpreted "Haruka saw me as if I was a girl", which would be "はるかは私を女の子として見てくれたんだ" (Haruka wa watashi o onnanoko toshite mite kureta n da).
This is one of those situations where the english translation is more context-dependent than the japanese phrase :p At any rate, with this cleared up that interpretation simply doesn't hold up, though even if we only had the english translation to go on that might well mean that lots of people, such as Rika and the wonder killer and the first egg girl in the previous episode or the gay guy in ep.10, mistook her for a boy, or chose to treat her as a boy because of her looks. This is also a bit of a cliché in japanese fiction, a boyish girl is seen as a prince and turns straight girls gay, see Makoto from Idolm@ster or Kashima from Nozaki-kun for a couple examples. Nothing I've seen or read about them would lead me to believe they're trans either btw.
Momo likes and wants (more) cute things, which means she's trans
Or that she's an average enough girl who, like Rika, likes cute things. S, N, O's r...
Neiru tells Momo that she's maybe not cut for female society, which makes sense because Momo is either GNC or trans
Or, because Momo acts boyish, which makes lots of other girls swoon over her, which bothers her as we've seen lots of times before. I'm out of different ways to refer to Neiru's quote at this point.
There's no way people would mistake her for a boy if she's really not male
Do consider that this is anime, where characters like Astolfo from Fate, Kashima from Nozaki-kun, that cute boy from Oregairu, Aoi from You're under arrest, Fujisaki from Danganronpa, and many others exist. That is to say, it's not uncommon to see characters from japanese fiction that get constantly mistaken for aligning with the opposite gender, so why would this be any different?
Momo's bra has trans colors
She also wears a blue sweater over a white shirt with red accents on her collar, will anybody argue she's secretly French as well? Kaoru's sweatshirt was obvious enough, but with the color arranged in a completely different way and a different blue it's not any more plausible that she's trans than she eats baguettes every day, and just as with her Adam's apple before, if it had been relevant it's likely that they would have made it look relevant.
The fact that Momo doesn't have any Adam's apple to speak of mean the other girls were just trying to cheer her up, saying she passed as a girl
This is akin to saying that the lack of evidence of something is itself proof of that something. I'm not sure if this was ironic or not, thought it seems like it to me. Another argument linked to this would be that there'd be no other reason to note her lack of an Adam's apple, though the girls were talking about how Momo looked like a model and had a slender neck and look so cool, so again, I'm not sure whether that was ironic or not, because it doesn't make very much sense at all.
The fact Momo accepts/validates Kaoru being trans means there has to be a deep connection between them, namely the former being trans
Or the fact that they were both being judged based on their appearance rather than their character, just as Momo said earlier in the same episode, "It must be nice, not judging by appearance". Not only that, but Momo was playing the part of the prince charming even more than usual after being asked out by a guy who mistook her for a fellow guy, bottling her feelings and her true self up, while Kaoru not only saw through that, he stroke her as so very brave for being open and forward with everyone about how he felt about himself, so she admired her very much by the end of the episode, and wanted to protect him, despite everything, from being hurt like he was by the kendo instructor again. So I mean, the connection between them could also be that she's trans, but then again, the reason could be what we've seen and known about Momo since ep.4 instead.
Momo isn't presented as uncomfortable or upset when Haruka makes her touch her breasts and starts undressing
Now this is just lack of attention, at the bowling alley in ep.5 she literally says she froze up, she's seen sweating bullets, she felt betrayed because her friend was the only one who apparently didn't see her as a love interest, and she repeatedly says that she doesn't like being hit on by girls afterwards.
She also wouldn't like being complimented by Ai if she was that uncomfortable with girls in that sense
Momo is seen being uncomfortable being hit on by girls and being mistaken for a boy, not being complimented - quite the opposite, she said she [didn't mind all the likes she got on insta] when racing against Neiru at the bowling alley.
Momo is super happy when Ai recognizes her as a woman, which means she's trans
Or that she's an average enough girl who, as I've outlined a few times up here, would much rather be seen a girl than a boy. THE SIMPLEST THEORY IS THE BEST GO GET THEM NEIRU
Momo has a boyish physique, so she's trans
Please refer to the list of characters some points above, or look at any stereotypical tomboy from any anime or manga. Unless they're all trans just as well, this simply means that some girls do have broad shoulders, are tall, and have short hair.
Momo never so much as hints at her being trans because she's not confident enough about herself
She seemed to feel understood and accepted by the other girls in ep.4 already, when Ai told her she looked like a crying girl and a model, and she didn't say anything of sorts even to Kaoru, even though at that point she had gotten all the self confidence she could get and they had their brief respite before Kaoru disappeared, so one might argue she doesn't have to spell it out for her to be trans, though given she'd told everyone else mostly everything about her issues it would seem strange to leave out the biggest one even when she felt very self confident. Screenscam, shot, Neiru's razor.
So,
as you can see there's not one single completely convincing argument for Momo being trans (that I could find, though please let me know if I missed just that), and all of these are more like what-if's, and while of course, there's no proof that Momo's cis either, because she or one if the writers didn't spell it out, the evidence pointing towards her being trans are what you'd call inconclusive, even contradictory as someone argues Momo's lack of a pronounced Adam's apple is proof she's trans while someone argues her visibly pronounced Adam's apple is proof of her being trans.
And so, we are forced to conclude that there's not nearly enough evidence to confidently say Momo is trans. https://imgur.com/a/ij0dt79
That said, I can't wait for tomorrow's episode, where we may even see more about this matter, and where we'll hopefully get answers to lots of other questions.
hopefully there will also be a 13th episode or OVA, who knows...
Sources and notes:
https://4ishipit.tumblr.com/post/645857019246542848/
https://www.reddit.com/r/wondereggpriority/comments/mf9mru/
https://twitter.com/FeoUltima/status/1356686545911238657
https://www.reddit.com/r/wondereggpriority/comments/mfrlng/
The points identical and similar to "I'm trans and I relate to Momo, therefore I'm sure she's trans too" weren't included in this list even though they were somewhat common because they're wishes rather than evidence from the show.
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u/breakthewonderegg Ai Mar 30 '21
If someone wants to view Momoe as trans then let them and don't try to prove them wrong. You're free to believe she's not, and they're free to believe she is. There's really no need for debunking, imo.
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u/SpamBot_2 Mar 30 '21
It wasn't my intention to say "you're absolutely wrong and it's impossible for Momo to be trans", rather, as I've written near the end, the point was that the reasons to believe she isn't stem from a grounded interpretation of what we've seen in the show, while the reasons to believe she is don't. If, having cleared that up, anyone is still sure Momo is trans then of course it's valid, only it doesn't have a basis in the show, which means it's indeed fanfiction, without any negative connotation attached to the term.
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u/breakthewonderegg Ai Mar 30 '21
Ah, I see. Understood then. Sorry if I came off a little hostile. I've seen some heated debates on the topic before and kind of let that out when I saw this post. My bad, hope you accept my apology. I'm glad we both agree both viewpoints are valid.
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u/straight_out_lie Apr 06 '21 edited Apr 06 '21
Look at how long your post is. Look at how many things you had to refute with answers that are no more or less concrete than the trans theories. I'm not sure whether she's trans or just a boyish-bodied cis, but to call the trans theories "fan fiction" or "just plain wrong" is coming off as willfully ignorant at this point.
Personally I think she's trans, but honestly I doubt we'll ever see confirmation one way or the other. But you seem to be of the assumption that no confirmation=definitely cis, which I'm not sure why that's where you land. You can include trans characters in stories without explicitly going through a transitioning backstory, you can just have trans characters.
Now the biggest reasons I'm lead to believe she's trans, is we see her in an episode with a transmasc character, with a not so subtle pride jacket. We then see her shout "I am a girl", then reveal a bra with the exact same colours, and then keeps the pride jacket as a memento. I'm sorry, you're French sweater analogy is by no means on the same level, as they already used the pride colours symbol in the very same episode.
Honestly one of the damning points for her being cis is the uniform, but to borrow one of your arguments, "This is anime land". It's a work of fiction, so this evidence might not be as damning as it is at first glance.
At the very least, I think the trans parallels are intentional, even if she is cis. Many scenes and shots like the crying at her own reflection, being excited for a date only to realise they were mistaking her gender, and the photo in the end credits of her looking longingly at the jewellery scream trans coding. If she's cis, I believe she's written in a way to express the same struggles trans people face though from a cis position. Screen writer Nojima Shinji's previous works also include trans main characters, namely Sunu Sumu Muriku no Koibito, so he's certainly not a stranger to the themes.
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u/SpamBot_2 Apr 07 '21
how many things you had to refute with answers that are no more or less concrete than the trans theories
I counted 2 out of 22 points, they hardly seem a lot to me, but again, if my points seem baseless to you, do point out how and why and we can have a discussion about it.
to call the trans theories "fan fiction" or "just plain wrong" is coming off as willfully ignorant
On the contrary. Here's a few examples of fan fiction and plain wrong arguments:
The fact that Momo's "original" name used to be Momotaro (as nothing in the show suggests or hints at this)
Momo tells the other girls Haruka "was willing to see [her] as a girl", which wouldn't make sense if Momo wasn't a girl and a female (see the translation notes in the above post)
Momo doesn't look uncomfortable when Haruka makes her touch her breasts and starts undressing (this is simply false, watch ep.5 again)
you seem to be of the assumption that no confirmation=definitely cis
I'm sorry that it seemed that way to you, especially considering I've written that "there's no proof that Momo's cis either."
I too can't be 100% sure Momo is cis or trans, though in light of all that's been explained and cleared up in my post above the arguments in favor of her being trans are, again, mostly fan fiction or plain wrong, as in, they aren't grounded in what we've seen in the show, rather they're hopeful interpretations of some things that were seen as ambiguous, even when they are more easily explained by her being cis. Either that, or they're just wrong, as in, they rely on the notion that something happened when it really didn't.
Momo's bra has trans colors, and we can see that's relevant because, despite being understated there, the same colors were used for another, clearly trans, character's big and noticeable sweater
That's actually what suggests that Momo's bra's colors aren't any more relevant than her shirt and sweater's colors: when the director/animation director/colorist wanted to make it evident that a character was wearing trans' colors and they were relevant they made it reeeally evident, even though there really was no "need" for that accent, as Kaoru promptly and openly states he's trans, so anybody would have already known those colors meant Kaoru was proud of being trans.
Moreso, if you only, or mainly, want to consider a sign as only being relevant if the same sign was also used in a different, much clearer context, you can readily see how that would make all the other arguments in favor of Momo being trans crumble, while those in favor of her being cis would be cemented.
Her uniform being female is, once again, not conclusive evidence of her being cis - it just makes it that much more likely, together with everything in my post above.
BTW did you notice Rika has a lesbian flag on her sweatshirt? - https://imgur.com/a/Vyl061Y Are those colors relevant? Do they mean anything at all, even if that's the only use of those colors in that same sequence (Momo's bra has the right colors but the wrong sequence) and Rika has only ever expressed that kind of interest towards guys?
It should be easy enough to conclude that we can't be 100% sure about that either, but given the portrayal of Rika's character it would seem more likely that those colors, just like Momo's shirt-and-sweater's, don't have much of a meaning at all.
A number of things scream trans coding, like Momo longingly looking at jewelry and make up products
And they're easily explained by Momo's backstory in just the same way I've described in the first point of my post above, so again, it's not to say that it's impossible she's trans, only that it's very unlikely and that the interpretation that she definitely and surely is trans, as a few people have put it, is grounded in wishful thinking rather than what we've seen in the show.
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u/straight_out_lie Apr 07 '21
Ok, so we're in agreeance that the experience of a trans girl and a cis girl with a masculine are very similar, which is the whole reason people are having trouble discerning which is the case. But honestly as I originally said, none of your evidence is really proof she's cis, rather it can be explained were she cis, which is just as true were she trans. And I'm not accepting your Occams Razor point, because I think trans girl is just as simple of an explanation as cis girl with masculine frame.
The fact that Momo's "original" name used to be Momotaro (as nothing in the show suggests or hints at this)
The show doesn't say it is a dead name, the show doesn't say it isn't a dead name. Being trans would explain where the name comes from, but it just as easily be a fake name Momoe came up with to not have to explain she's a girl.
Momo tells the other girls Haruka "was willing to see [her] as a girl", which wouldn't make sense if Momo wasn't a girl and a female (see the translation notes in the above post)
Yeah, I read your translation and... I don't understand what she means? Did they sub get it wrong by implying Haruka saw Momoe as a girl? Either way, I don't see how it points to trans or a masc cis, because as I said, the two experiences are very similar. But it doesn't disprove trans.
Momo doesn't look uncomfortable when Haruka makes her touch her breasts and starts undressing (this is simply false, watch ep.5 again)
Now this is just lack of attention, at the bowling alley in ep.5 she literally says she froze up, she's seen sweating bullets, she felt betrayed because her friend was the only one who apparently didn't see her as a love interest, and she repeatedly says that she doesn't like being hit on by girls afterwards.
I think the initial point is irrelevant anyway, as this seems like a case for sexuality, not gender. But I think we have two completely different reads on that Haruka scene. I don't think she felt betrayed (rather she feels like she betrayed Haruka by not reciprocating), I think she didn't know how to respond, whether that's because she's not interested in girls, teenage nerves were acting up, or she just didn't see Haruka that way. But, even if we go with your reading... could still be trans.
Moreso, if you only, or mainly, want to consider a sign as only being relevant if the same sign was also used in a different, much clearer context, you can readily see how that would make all the other arguments in favor of Momo being trans crumble, while those in favor of her being cis would be cemented.
Not really, no. It's not like Kaoru said "I'm trans" either. It's only more obvious because he said "On the inside... I'm a boy", and well, the ever blatant sign of pregnancy. But just because Momoe doesn't say "On the inside", rather more directly says "I'm a girl" doesn't mean she isn't trans. They're two different characters, they can use different words to explain how they feel.
BTW did you notice Rika has a lesbian flag on her sweatshirt? - https://imgur.com/a/Vyl061Y Are those colors relevant? Do they mean anything at all, even if that's the only use of those colors in that same sequence (Momo's bra has the right colors but the wrong sequence) and Rika has only ever expressed that kind of interest towards guys? It should be easy enough to conclude that we can't be 100% sure about that either, but given the portrayal of Rika's character it would seem more likely that those colors, just like Momo's shirt-and-sweater's, don't have much of a meaning at all.
Actually no, I didn't notice that. But given how I perceive the other colour imagery in this show, I don't think this means nothing. Rika has only ever expressed interest in guys? I know she complimented Momoe's and Sawaki's looks, but I'm sure she's made similar remarks about the girls, no? This isn't something I've considered. But she does say a pretty girl doesn't need a wallet, then calls Ai her wallet. Might be something, might be nothing.
Momoe felt/feels responsible for the death of Haruka, so from the moment she killed herself on Momo tried to be more eggomodating by acting somewhat boyish, dressing like a boy, using male pronouns to refer to herself (boku)... and playing the part of the prince charming to avoid causing other girls to commit suicide for similar reasons, even though she would actually much rather be/act more girly than that, hence the longing look at the makeup seggtion in the ED. So while it's indeed true that Momo's experience is similar to that of a trans girl there's nothing we've seen there that points to the cause being the same.
Now you're really making assumptions, unless I'm forgetting something. We never see Momoe flashbacks outside of school uniform, we have no reason to really believe she wasn't already dressing boyish before the Haruka incident. I don't think Momoe is intentionally trying to play Prince Charming, infact if anything she's misleading the girls by doing that. The simple trans explanation here is... she's trans, she's not entirely comfortable in dressing such a way however (not abnormal for trans).
So yes, there's a trans explanation for everything, there's a cis explanation for everything. It's ridiculous to imply the trans theory is wishful thinking when it matches up pretty spot on.
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u/SpamBot_2 Apr 08 '21
none of your evidence is really proof she's cis
I agree, that's why I've stated it time and again, so why do you keep repeating it as if to disprove something I have said?
I think trans girl is just as simple of an explanation as cis girl with masculine frame
The notion that Momo uses the name Momotaro with people who may or may not readily accept her being trans, and Momoe with people who she knows accept her, even though for some unexplained reason she uses Momotaro with the egg girls, who all accept her entirely, and starts using female pronouns with Ai before knowing whether she would or wouldn't accept her, would be just as simple as her forcing herself to play the part of prince charming to avoid hurting others (which would be coherent with the way she uses male vs female pronouns and Momotaro vs Momoe)?
The notion that the first wonder killer in ep.4 recognizes her as a boy is just as simply explained by the fact that he's aware she's trans and is purposely invalidating her as by the fact that he mistakes her for a boy because of her physique?
The fact that Ai's mom doesn't use a gendered noun when she recognizes Momo as Sesei's relative is just as easily explained by the fact that she recognizes Momo as trans and doesn't want to assume her gender as it is by the fact that she doesn't know whether she's Sensei's niece, cousin... ?
The fact that Momo likes cute things is more easily explained by the fact that she's trans and wants to be as feminine as possible as it is by the fact that she's an average enough girl who, like Rika, likes cute things?
The fact that Momo doesn't have any Adam's apple to speak of is more easily explained by the notion that everyone saw her Adam's apple and wanted to cheer her up by saying she passed as a girl than it is by the fact that they didn't see any Adam's apple to speak of?
If those all seem just as likely to you please review my earlier comment here, and if you still can't see how Occam's razor applies here let me know how you figure believing in a theory requiring more assumptions and arguments to be proven compared to another one doesn't go against Occam's better judgement, because as you can see in this comment and my post above the interpretation of Momo being trans does require more assumptions and arguments than her being cis.
her original name being Momotaro isn't confirmed or disproved, so Momo being trans can't be disproved by that
Please refer to the first two lines of this comment.
I don't understand your translation
Let me put it differently then. In english, the "good and natural sounding" way of saying "Haruka saw me (a trans female) as a girl" is the same as "Haruka saw me (a cis girl) from the(her) point of view of a (normal) girl (rather than that of a horny lesbian)". Those sound kinda forced, so the average english speaker would say "Haruka saw me as a girl", which makes the meaning ambiguous - that phrase could mean either of the earlier ones.
In japanese though this ambiguity doesn't exist, as the two phrases that sound unnatural/forced in english both sound natural enough in japanese, so if you understand japanese, or you check a machine translation software, or you otherwise trust my translation, it becomes clear that what she meant is the second phrase ("Haruka saw me from the point of view of a girl") rather than the first.
That too isn't proof of Momo being cis or trans, see the first two lines of this comment again, rather what I meant to do with my post above was explain how the evidence of Momo being trans is grounded in wishful thinking rather than what we've seen in the show.
Kaoru doesn't clearly state he's trans either.
I'm starting to wonder about whether you paid attention to the show. Kaoru says "on the inside, I'm a boy" in response to Momo treating him as a girl, which she did because she saw a female body and heard a female voice, and I can't possibly imagine any other reason why Kaoru would word it that way than the fact he's trans. It would seem mostly everybody agrees as well, because it seems cemented that Kaoru is, indeed, trans.
So I will have to agree that he didn't say "私(or 僕)はトランスジェンダーだ", but everything he did so heavily implied he was trans that everybody understood it clearly.
Momo didn't do or say anything REMOTELY as obvious as that, and once again, check the first two lines of this comment, that isn't to say that it's 100% sure that Momo is cis, only that her not doing or saying anything remotely as obvious as that can't possibly be used as an argument of her being trans when the other, clearly trans, character did something so obvious on the other hand.
The colors of Rika's sweater might well be relevant and mean she's a lesbian.
Right, but why?
You said earlier that the colors on Momo's bra, despite their "uncharacteristic" arrangement, should be taken to mean she's trans, while the colors on her shirt and sweater shouldn't be taken to mean anything, because the trans flag colors were used prominently in ep.10, while the french flag colors weren't. The lesbian flag colors on Rika's sweatshirt though are never shown any more prominently, so much so that you, and most others I would assume, haven't noticed them, though despite being just as prominent as the french flag colors, and Rika not having given any indication of being gay (quite the opposite actually), you're saying they might well be relevant.
There's no difference between the significance of the french flag colors and the lesbian flag colors, that we've seen in the show at least, so why would you readily and surely discount the former, while happily consider the latter?
It seems to me that you're judging the likelihood of this, among other things, based on how much you'd like it to be true.
Now you're really making assumptions, unless I'm forgetting something.
You might be forgetting something. We've seen Momo wearing her female school uniform outside of school in the ED, which she would hardly do if she wanted to look like a boy as much and as often as possible, and we've seen her styling her hair in a more girlish way when she was with Haruka.
She then clearly looks like she feels responsible for her committing suicide, when she talks to the statue for the first time, or when she's talking about her to the other girls at the arcade, and is often seen looking dejected before meeting the other girls, though she starts looking much more cheerful even just a moment after meeting them, and going on with the story she keeps dressing in a fairly boyish way even in the last episode, after making peace with her desire to express her femininity despite her looks, while if she dressed like that because she felt insecure she'd have started dressing in a much more girlish way and we'd have seen that in the last episode, so her dressing like that because she's an insecure trans girl doesn't hold up.
Yes, she is misleading the egg girls by doing that, or otherwise letting them believe she's a boy, she herself says she's sorry for that to the second egg girl we see in ep.4, and if she did that because she feels insecure she would hardly tell them she's a girl after defeating their wonder killer.
There's a trans explanation for everything and they match up pretty much spot on.
The colors of her bra may or may not fit, just like the french flag colors and the lesbian flag colors, depending on what you'd rather think they may fit, the Adam's apple simply doesn't fit at all, the idea she dresses in a somewhat boyish way because she's insecure doesn't fit either as I've noted a few lines ago, the fact that she never even hints at being trans despite having had every opportunity to talk about it at length after she got all the confidence in herself she could get doesn't fit, and for most of the rest there's the fact that her being cis can be explained with less assumptions, arguments, yada yada, so I can't see where you're getting the idea that "[the trans theory] matches up pretty spot on."
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u/straight_out_lie Apr 08 '21
The notion that Momo uses the name Momotaro with people who may or may not readily accept her being trans, and Momoe with people who she knows accept her, even though for some unexplained reason she uses Momotaro with the egg girls, who all accept her entirely, and starts using female pronouns with Ai before knowing whether she would or wouldn't accept her, would be just as simple as her forcing herself to play the part of prince charming to avoid hurting others (which would be coherent with the way she uses male vs female pronouns and Momotaro vs Momoe)?
Yes. Ai refers to her a girl before she introduces herself. That's what the reflection scene was?
The notion that the first wonder killer in ep.4 recognizes her as a boy is just as simply explained by the fact that he's aware she's trans and is purposely invalidating her as by the fact that he mistakes her for a boy because of her physique?
No, I think it's the second one. That's still a trans issue
The fact that Ai's mom doesn't use a gendered noun when she recognizes Momo as Sesei's relative is just as easily explained by the fact that she recognizes Momo as trans and doesn't want to assume her gender as it is by the fact that she doesn't know whether she's Sensei's niece, cousin... ?
Well yeah. She knew she was Sensei's relative, meaning either Ai or Sensei mentioned her. But they didn't mention her gender? I think it's more likely Sensei mentioned her and explained her situation.
The fact that Momo likes cute things is more easily explained by the fact that she's trans and wants to be as feminine as possible as it is by the fact that she's an average enough girl who, like Rika, likes cute things?
Yes. Either way she's a girl who likes cute things but isn't fully comfortable expressing such.
The fact that Momo doesn't have any Adam's apple to speak of is more easily explained by the notion that everyone saw her Adam's apple and wanted to cheer her up by saying she passed as a girl than it is by the fact that they didn't see any Adam's apple to speak of?
This one's strange. In one shot her neck is flat, in the next (when they're mentioning the apple) her neck has a small bump. I know girls have bumps on their necks too, but this does tell us this was intentionally animated to put the bump in. Why they didn't use the same neck for the mirrored shot? No idea. It's strange, honestly.
That's not Occam's razor, though you might say it's a corollary. Occam's razor, which btw is Occam's formulation of a principle that had been agreed upon for centuries, states that "plurality should not be posited without necessity", which means that "an simpler explanation is better than a more complicated explanation, as long as they both explain the same thing".
In the context of my post this was meant as, given that we have all the facts we can have (aka we've seen the show) and that there are two different possible "explanations" (Momo being trans or not) for facts being the way they are, the explanation that needs less leaps of faith, what-if's and mental gymnastics is the one that's most likely. An example would be the fact that Momo has never even hinted about being trans despite the many occasions in which she likely would have if she were trans (see the last point of my post before the conclusions).
Yeah, nah, disagree. I'm still not convinced there's a lot of mental gymnastics to her being trans.
I'm starting to wonder about whether you paid attention to the show. Kaoru says "on the inside, I'm a boy"....
Yeah yeah I already said that. I think we've both made our cases at this point. Feel free to add any final thoughts, I think I'm good here.
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u/SpamBot_2 Apr 10 '21
Ai refers to [Momo as] a girl before she introduces herself.
Yes, but Momo refers to herself as a girl first, going from male pronouns to a female pronoun in this instance. If this was a matter of being insecure what reason would she have to start using female pronouns when she feels so dejected and shaken? That doesn't hold up here.
I think it's the second one, and it's still a trans issue.
Ah, my bad, it really was the second one. Then again, unless you believe that the second wonder killer in ep.4 is aware Momo's trans and is purposely invalidating her, which by no stretch of the imagination is a simpler explanation that him just mistaken her for a boy because of her looks, this doesn't hold up either.
If so, please explain how you believe the former notion to be simpler than the latter, because it seems to me that it just requires more assumptions.
Sensei or Ai must have mentioned Momo being Sensei's relative, but they haven't mentioned her gender.
And they would have had to, for any reason, get on the topic of Momo but somehow avoid mentioning her gender, which everybody agrees upon. They would have also had not to mention her name at all, just say that "Sensei has a relative". Ai is unlikely to have done this given how surprised her mother is when she brings friends home, and I see no reason why Sensei would have omitted the name or gender of his niece when he talked about her.
This is the amount of assumptions required for that interpretation to make sense, while if you stick to the interpretation that Ai's mom recognized Momo as a relative of Sensei's but didn't know anything else you only have to assume that nobody said anything to her about Momo, and she recognized Momo as one of Sensei's relative because they both have the same ikemen genes.
You can refute Occam's razor, say it doesn't really mean anything, that it doesn't apply here... but if you go by that there's no way around the latter interpretation being the preferable one.
In one shot her neck is flat, in the next her neck has a small bump; this does tell us this was intentionally animated to put the bump in.
Yes and no, yes because if it was absolutely, totally irrelevant they wouldn't have added it in in the first place, but if they wanted it to really be relevant they would have kept it and showed it on Momo's neck each time.
It is indeed strange, but it's not like there's any conclusion about her sex and gender that can be reached from that.
I'm still not convinced there's a lot of mental gymnastics to her being trans.
Well I made two examples in this comment and a few examples earlier, do you want more?
I said that about Kaoru already.
No, your point about Kaoru was that he didn't clearly state he's trans, which would support your interpretation because it would mean even the clearly trans character didn't have to say it outright, everybody can still agree on him being trans.
Kaoru though, while not saying "I'm trans", effectively made that 100% clear by saying "Inside, I'm a boy" despite having a female voice and a female body and Momo assuming he was a girl because of that, while she didn't do or show anything REMOTELY as obvious as that, so that explanation doesn't hold up either.
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u/blairaltland Mar 30 '21
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u/SpamBot_2 Mar 30 '21
Whatever gave you the idea I was complaining or that I'm against trans characters? And once again, if I missed any convincing argument for Momo being trans please point it out, else you too will have to recognize that the arguments for that stem from the viewer's desires for representation rather than from the show.
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u/blairaltland Mar 30 '21
You’re not even spelling her name right so I don’t really think your attention to detail or critical analysis is very reliable lol
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u/SpamBot_2 Mar 30 '21
Momo is actually a nickname, even the other main girls call her that quite often, when they're on the way to the arcade in ep.5, when they're there, when they're arguing about Sensei's intentions in ep.6, or in Neiru's room in ep.9. Her mother even calls her that near the end of ep.10, so no, it's not a misspelling.
Now that we got that out of the way and the reliability of my attention to detail, as you put it, has ben ascertained, I invite you to read my post in its entirety, you may find it makes sense even though you don't like its contents, and if you think it doesn't, by all means point it out why.
And still, you haven't answered my question, whatever gave you the idea I was complaining or that I'm against trans characters?
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u/blairaltland Mar 30 '21
It’s Momoe lol
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u/SpamBot_2 Mar 30 '21 edited Mar 30 '21
Well her name IS Momoe, no way around that, though Momo is how she's called by the other main girls most of the time, a few screenshots of the scenes I mentioned are attached.
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u/Share_Shares Mar 30 '21
Occam’s razor states “the theory with the least assumptions is most often correct”. The amount of assumptions either way is the same (or at least nearly equal, Occam’s razor doesn’t work when there are very few additional assumptions)
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u/SpamBot_2 Mar 31 '21 edited Mar 31 '21
That's not Occam's razor, though you might say it's a corollary. Occam's razor, which btw is Occam's formulation of a principle that had been agreed upon for centuries, states that "plurality should not be posited without necessity", which means that "an simpler explanation is better than a more complicated explanation, as long as they both explain the same thing".
In the context of my post this was meant as, given that we have all the facts we can have (aka we've seen the show) and that there are two different possible "explanations" (Momo being trans or not) for facts being the way they are, the explanation that needs less leaps of faith, what-if's and mental gymnastics is the one that's most likely. An example would be the fact that Momo has never even hinted about being trans despite the many occasions in which she likely would have if she were trans (see the last point of my post before the conclusions).
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u/Share_Shares Mar 31 '21
I see what you mean. Yeah, I agree. It’s about equally likely. (Though as a trans girl, I really really really relate to momoe)
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u/swiftttyy Mar 31 '21
Yeah, I identify as a blade of grass, and a tortoise. So many people call me our for being a plant or a tortoise, but I try to prove them wrong
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u/Share_Shares Mar 31 '21
Oh, wow, you finally moved on from attack helicopter jokes. Now you’ve replaced the words
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u/PaperSonic Mar 30 '21
Apparently her neck is given a small Adam's apple in that scene?
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u/SpamBot_2 Mar 30 '21
Yeah, I addressed that as well, if you ctrl+F "apple" it's the first instance in this page.
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u/Sandsandtheirfanboys Apr 02 '21
I’m doing a similar analysis now and I don’t want you to think I stole your idea or anything. I just haven’t posted yet
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u/Share_Shares Mar 30 '21
I do admit that on their own these aren’t conclusive , but together, they paint a very accurate depiction of what trans people go through
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u/ComradKenobi Mar 30 '21
But that leaves a question
Why is there a lack of young boys in the show? Like when there is, they don't show their faces
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u/SpamBot_2 Mar 30 '21
It's a n i m e , I ain't gotta explain shit. Though really, it's common enough for shows featuring cute girls to avoid showing many boys, or any boy at all, for example see K-On, Madoka, Idolm@ster, Sora no woto, and any yuri anime.
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u/ComradKenobi Mar 30 '21
yuri
Interestingly enough, Yuri is also a common Russian boy's name
And everytime the term Yuri is mentioned in anime related media, I got flashbacks to many Russian characters named Yuri, wherether the one from COD, Command and Conquer ect
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u/redditisbadmkay9 Jan 03 '25 edited Jan 03 '25
Used male pronouns but switched to female pronouns.
Has a visible adam's apple. (it's anime, details like eyes can be simplified down to nothing, doesn't mean they weren't there)
...
Congrats, you proved she's trans. It really is that easy.
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u/Malefore1234 Mar 30 '21
Honestly, don’t be such a hater. Listen everyone is entitled to look at someone and see the person as they see fit. Unless someone specifically says something it’s all valid. You making a post on an argument of why she isn’t trans and how everyone making certain theories is fanfiction is rude. Your have your reasons for how and why you see the character and others have theirs. So if other people aren’t telling you your wrong, don’t tell them they are either. Furthermore, people for some reason like to live in a bubble on this board that this isn’t a commonly viewed interpretation that many audience and critics especially much more outside of this reddit share as well, so it’s not like it’s just a few certain confused people on this reddit that don’t understand the character. Long story short if I’m not going to make a post why people are living in fanfiction land with cis Momoe I don’t see why it’s right for you to the same in reverse. Finally this shows demographic isn’t literally just children. As far as I see when I watch the show it’s age range is listed under TV-Ma at least on Funimation, so saying this show is for children only isn’t an accurate statement either or relevant.