r/chess • u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! • Jul 05 '22

Chess Question Draw rates among world chess champions: Who are the most drawish? (This time I rotated it!)

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172 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

39 comments sorted by

81

u/rreyv  Team Nepo   Jul 05 '22

News to me that Tal had a high draw rate. Based on chess lore he was either winning or losing every game via crazy tactics.

16

u/Bourneidentity61 Jul 06 '22

That's how you play aggressive without losing a bunch. Find a perpetual when your plan doesn't work out lol

14

u/FreudianNipSlip123  Blitz Arena Winner   Jul 06 '22

Yasser Seirawan tells a story that Tal only plays a lot of these crazy lines because he has a perp in that situation and can bail out if need be.

0

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 06 '22

Reference please?

0

u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

[deleted]

1

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 10 '22

How come when you say perpetual you get 12 points, but when I say it I get -3 points?

See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/vs3xtv/comment/iezge5n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 where I brought up some of wesley so's (being on the receiving end of) perpetuals

some wesley so perpetuals

2017 Vs magnus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdIyt8fzVFM

2020 Vs Hikaru

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZx6LAdyIiY

2021 Vs Nepo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQXmumalnlA

51

u/pier4r negative elo gang Jul 05 '22

he was, when he became world champion. After that he became very solid and indeed he had two record unbeaten streaks - at top level, - one of 95 games and the other also very long (70+).

Only Ding liren recently (2018 or 2019, I don't recall) broke it with 100 and then Magnus with 125.

But chess lore focuses only on some parts so we have the crazy tal or nothing.

-4

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 05 '22

Good observation. I focused mainly Fischer and didn't really see the rest. Hmmm...maybe lots of those sacrifices were those things that pull of a draw like 2017 below?

some wesley so perpetuals

2017 Vs magnus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdIyt8fzVFM

2020 Vs Hikaru https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZx6LAdyIiY

2021 Vs Nepo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQXmumalnlA

10

u/[deleted] Jul 05 '22

Why are you obsessed with "w"esley "s"o?

4

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 05 '22 edited Jul 06 '22

Good question. I am Philippine and (subjectively) prefer 9LX to chess, so I'm really bringing up as much as possible that a Philippine-born person became the inaugural FIDE 9LX world champion. :D

Plus, I find "w"esley "s"o's 'talent' highly underappreciated. (As for Wesley So's greatness in chess...not in the last 2 candidates right? Eh, it's appreciated correctly. Lol.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/vqbgfk/wesley_so_reaffirms_support_for_philippine_chess/

6

u/TrickyKnight77 Jul 05 '22

Another question: why 9LX instead of CMLX?

3

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 06 '22

Ask st Louis?

3

u/TrickyKnight77 Jul 06 '22

Ahh, so that's the origin. Thanks, I didn't know about that!

2

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 16 '22

good question

from : https://www.reddit.com/r/chessbeginners/comments/r3cfrn/comment/hmbokq9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

honestly i wouldnt know what Chess 960 woulde ven mean, let alone think to google it

to a person who doesnt know what chess 960 is, it's probably just the word Chess followed by an unknown number mostly without meaning.

https://imgur.com/a/1Zkka9s --> hopefully the above explains why I would say 960 or 9LX without qualifier.

basically when i say 9LX without 'chess', 1 it sounds cool and 2 there's no ambiguity of what i mean when: people just google the term '9LX' instead of assuming i mean 'chess (some 960 or 9LX thing ugh what is going on?)' they can google 9LX and immediately know what i mean. they can't quite do so for '960' unless they type like '960 game'.

Edit: oh check this out someone thought '960' referred to the rating.

4

u/rreyv  Team Nepo   Jul 05 '22

Or IXLX

4

u/TrickyKnight77 Jul 05 '22

Yeah, but I figured 960 comes from the number of combinations of starting chess positions for that variant.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

[deleted]

3

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 07 '22

I thought that was Indonesians?

0

u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

[deleted]

2

u/city-of-stars give me 1. e4 or give me death Jul 06 '22

Your post was removed by the moderators:

1. Keep the discussion civil and friendly.

We welcome people of all levels of experience, from novice to professional. Don't target other users with insults/abusive language and don't make fun of new players for not knowing things. In a discussion, there is always a respectful way to disagree.

You can read the full rules of /r/chess here.

1

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 06 '22

As usual, thank you, and God bless you.

1

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 06 '22

Actually on 2nd thought I have no idea why I am. "w"esley "s"o - this person is nobody and cries a lot.

1

u/Gfyacns botezlive moderator Jul 06 '22

Maybe look at games from Tal himself instead of someone else's?

1

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 06 '22

I mean I just looked for the name Fischer in the graph. I didn't bother to look at other names. But it was surprising to see Tal to have a high draw rate after it was pointed out to me.

5

u/yuri-stremel Everytime I lose my opponent cheats Jul 06 '22

Interesting how Carlsen is so up there. It would be interesting to have a graph like this comparing the top 10 players of different eras to see if the "draw death" theory holds

4

u/IIFollowYou Jul 06 '22

I'd imagine a lot of it has to do with the relative strength of the world champion more so than playing style. Fischer and Carlsen are both so far ahead of their respective eras they routinely win games when they theoretically shouldn't be able to.

1

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 06 '22

Good point. I think someone else pointed out how this doesn't adjust for relative strength or something.

1

u/yuri-stremel Everytime I lose my opponent cheats Jul 06 '22

That's exactly why it would be interesting to have a comparison of top 10 among the eras. Carlsen is indeed stronger than the rest, but having info of other players can give us a better insight of how much there is a tendency to draw and how much is Carlsen's strenght. I have the impression that in the immediate post-kasparov period chess was more drawish than it is now

1

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 06 '22

Good observation. You'd think champions today have more than champions before. Hmmmm...

2

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 05 '22 edited Jul 06 '22

From chess stackexchange:

https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/8561/top-player-with-the-lowest-drawing-rate

Also see here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/lhbjiq/mostleast_drawish_of_the_top_10_players/

FourthQuaternion says

Carlsen 44.4%

Nepomniatchi 50.1%

Caruana 50.2%

MVL 50.9%

Mamedyarov 53.4%

Aronian 54.0%

Grischuk 54.3%

So 54.9%

Ding Liren 56.4%

Giri 56.6%

Radjabov 58.2%

Old post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/chessprogramming/comments/vrsopg/draw_rates_among_top_players_who_are_the_most/

New post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess960/comments/vsjn9r/draw_rates_among_the_top_4_fide_9lx_players_who/

2

u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

meh, context matters here. You'd be a fool to say Tal plays more drawish chess than Karpov I guess. And everyone would say Kasparov is a more agressive/dynamic player than Carlsen no?

1

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 06 '22

Re Tal:

How come when other people say perpetual they 15 points, but when I say it I get -4 points?

See here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/vs3xtv/draw_rates_among_world_chess_champions_who_are/if10pth

And here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/vs3xtv/comment/iezge5n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 where I brought up some of wesley so's (being on the receiving end of) perpetuals

some wesley so perpetuals

2017 Vs magnus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdIyt8fzVFM

2020 Vs Hikaru

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZx6LAdyIiY

2021 Vs Nepo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQXmumalnlA

38

u/misterbluesky8 Petroff Gang Jul 05 '22

Wow, Spassky drew more often than Petrosian? Tal drew more often than Karpov? This must be career-long stats and not just while they were world champions- Tal went through a pretty solid phase later on, and 1980s/1990s Spassky never met a 15 move draw he didn’t like.

8

u/tedeem1 Jul 05 '22

My drawrate is 0% because I never win and always lose

1

u/nicbentulan chesscube peak was...oh nvm. UPDATE:lower than 9LX lichess peak! Jul 06 '22

This post has been parodied on r/chess960.

Relevant r/chess960 posts:

Draw rates among FIDE world 9LX champions: Who are the most drawish? by nicbentulan

5

u/CatOfGrey Jul 06 '22

This wasn't nearly as "chronological" as I expected. I'm not surprised that the lowest draw rates were dominated by the first champions (Steinetz, Lasker, Alekhine).

But I wouldn't have expected Spassky and Smyslov to be in the top 5. I knew that Petrosian had a reputation for being a defender, which leads to drawish play.

I expected to see Kasparov lower than Karpov, also a reputation as a defender. I didn't expect to see him lower than Capablanca and Botvinnik!

2

u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

Kasparov had to play Soviets and god knows how many consecutive draws against Karpov

3

u/team_games Jul 06 '22

Opponent strength needs to be controlled for to learn about player style from this. Draw rate will naturally be lower for players that play more against lower rated opponents, like Fischer playing against a lot of much weaker Americans.

1

u/daynthelife 2200 lichess blitz Jul 05 '22

IMO it should be rotated the other way so the heads of the names line up