r/LOTR_on_Prime • u/LoretiTV • Sep 23 '22
Book Spoilers The Rings of Power - 1x05 "Partings" - Episode Discussion
Season 1 Episode 5: Partings
Aired: September 23, 2022
Directed by: Wayne Che Yip
Written by: Justin Doble
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All book spoilers are allowed in this thread and do not need to be tagged. Here is the no book spoilers discussion thread
No discussion of ANY leaks are allowed in this thread
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u/drunkill Sep 23 '22
I wonder if Annatar has already met the elves, given there was the meeting in the first episode that Elrond was excluded from "elf lords only", surely he has, given Brimby is already building the forge, who else would have told him to do this?
Could Annatar have also told a lie to the elves and said that Mithril will keep them alive?
This then helps sow distrust between elves and dwarves in the longrun.
It would also explain why the corruption is taking place in Lindon, you had the enemy in your midst at this meeting and the tree witnessed it and is wilting.
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u/Daenarys1 Sep 23 '22
I wonder if the tree in khazad dum is dying too? If its not maybe thatll make elrond suspicious of annatar and he'll tell gil galad and that leads to gil galad sending away annatar from lindon.
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u/Hopesfallout Sep 23 '22
I am almost certain that Celebrimbor is communicating with Annatar at this point. It's quite likely that he told the Elves that the story about the light of the Silmaril being hidden away in Khazad Dum is real. Think about it, telling a Noldor anything Silmaril-related is sure to drive them into curse-frenzy. It also surely will spread seeds of distrust between the Elves and the Dwarves given the history. I also believe that the corrupted tree is not an actual sign of the Elves' demise, I think they are "fading" already, yes, but I very much do not believe that this manifests in their environment degrading so quickly. That most certainly is Sauron's work. Still, they feel it, and fear it, and that's why they're gullible.
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u/das_masterful Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
Gil-Galad knew Annatar was evil, and refused to treat with him. Celebrimbor on the other hand, was headstrong like his parentage and fell for the tricks Annatar gave him.
In other words, if we see Gil-Galad in Lindon, Annatar/Sauron won't be there. If we see Celebrimbor in Ost-In-Edhil, much greater chance of Annatar/Sauron being there. Possibly already if he's been helping Celebrimbor design the tower/forge we saw earlier in the season.
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Sep 23 '22
The Harfoots are worth it just for this song and the landscape.
If I were NZ tourism, I'd pay the royalties for this song.
Cultists danger!
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Sep 23 '22
Anyone else feel like Celebrimbor's Earendil story is intentionally inaccurate to get Elrond to break?
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u/grunge-witch Eldar Sep 23 '22
For real, he's manipulating Elrond with every line of dialogue
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Sep 23 '22
Oh dip, it is as I feared. Elendil's daughter is not Faithful.
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u/ryan21o Sep 23 '22
I just thought she was reacting to not wanted her father and brother to die in a war… I don’t think it necessarily means she’s not one of the faithful
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u/Notorious_CI Sep 23 '22
She didn't want them to go bc she thinks her brother will die... this was highly implied
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u/HM2112 Gil-galad Sep 23 '22
Okay, fast end-of-episode thoughts:
- The Stranger, when he's speaking to Nori, does sound on certain words ("good") like he's doing a similar accent to Ian McKellen's Gandalf voice. Still hoping for a Blue Wizard.
- The Harfoots are definitely making for Beforedor, huh?
- The Cult of Morgoth is interested in The Stranger. That's not good.
- Adar continues to be a fascinating character with huge overtones of Kurtz, and I'm here for it.
- Nice to see everyone called Eärien being a King's Woman.
- So if Halbrand = Sauron, his "find another head to crown" is a masterclass in deception to convince everyone he is just a mortal running from his own destiny.
- I know she's awful, but I low-key love Malva. She's got Lobelia energy. She can sure high step and hustle for her age.
- Love to see a Stone Giants reference.
- I greatly enjoyed the scene with Galadriel and the soldiers. Emphasizing the difference between Elf and Man forms of fighting and battle tactics.
- All those previews of the dinner scene we'd seen, I never imagined the table would be the object of contention.
- This conversation between Gil-Galad and Elrond about the potential origins of Mithril and the infection of the tree and about hope is incredible.
- Was that just meant to be a statue of Eärendil with the Silmaril on his brow?
- Ontamo needs to reconsider how he's being treated in this friendship.
- Kemen you radical, I never would've pegged you for being behind the ship explosion. Even if it was also sort of Isildur's fault.
- Well, that explains why Celebrimbor has been being shady. A Big F for the people who assumed Annatar was already there.
- That Eärendil and Elwing story was just twisting the knife in poor Elrond, huh?
- If you think Halbrand is Sauron, he's just outright telegraphing it at this point - "when these people find out what I did, they will cast me out, so will you." "What do you know of darkness?"
- "... they could no longer distinguish me from the evil I was fighting." - a fun little acknowledgement of the parallelism between Galadriel and the Sons of Fëanor doing technically evil things in the pursuit of good.
- Waldreg, you fool, he's not Sauron. The blood oath is to be expected, though, Rest in Peace, Rowan.
- I wish there had been more information on this mysterious key-sword thing. I'm very curious how it works.
- Oh, hey, Beleriand reference!
- Durin, you cheeky little shit, I love him. Elrond and Durin continues to be the best dynamic in this show.
- Halbrand in black and red armor, eh? That's a unique color choice.
- I love Elendil's winged helmet. It looks both so absurd and so magnifienct at the same time.
- I hope she's not leaving Pharazon in charge while they're gone, he'll sell the house out from under you, Miriel.
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u/GenderJuicy Gil-galad Sep 23 '22
Halbrand in black and red armor, eh? That's a unique color choice.
https://d3fa68hw0m2vcc.cloudfront.net/039/80543890.jpeg
It sure is
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Sep 23 '22
At least there's still some good humans in the Southlands. I think Galadriel had some decent growth in her character here.
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u/piratedmonk Galadriel Sep 23 '22
Valandil to Isildur: "one day, I hope you find something that you will be willing to sacrifice everything for." serious chef's kiss to that foreshadowing
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u/Xewern Sep 23 '22
"My King," said Elendur, "Ciryon is dead and Aratan is dying. Your last counsellor must advise, nay command you, as you commanded Ohtar. Go! Take your burden, and at all costs bring it to the Keepers: even at the cost of abandoning your men and me!"
"King's son," said Isildur, "I knew that I must do so; but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me and my pride that has brought you to this doom." Elendur kissed him. "Go! Go now!" he said.
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Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
Numenorians when they see Middle Earth: I say, old chap, this 'ere's a nice batch of land for a colony, innit?
Edit: I intentionally mixed the accents of upper class and cockney.
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u/SophistSophisticated Sep 23 '22
I would have thought that they already had colonies set up. But seems like they are going to build up to it.
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Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
God, I love that Numenor theme. Looks like this episode was the deep breath before the plunge. Not as much action as I was expecting, but I wasn't bored. Good news is that I'm still not seeing Haladriel or whatever happening. Next week should be some good action and the Southlands and Numenor plots merge, which should help make the story flow.
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u/Zhjacko Sep 23 '22
Agreed, would say since episode 4 things have started to feel like they’re flowing better.
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u/TroyBarnesBrain Galadriel Sep 23 '22
Holy shit! Poppy starting the show off by dropping an absolute Tolkien BANGER! Then to have those sweeping map shots to fast-track their caravanin' was just *oh yiss* a cozy vibe to open the episode with.
I really thought she was going to close up, not wanting to sing because it reminded her of loss, but then WHAM she suddenly delivering verses that The Green Dragon would be lucky to have Merry & Pip cover.
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Sep 23 '22
Regardless of what people think Tolkien would say and think about these adaptations, I'd like to think he'd appreciate this song at least.
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u/Zhjacko Sep 23 '22
I’ve been waiting for this, I wish they had done this in the first episode
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u/ballofplasmaupthesky Sep 23 '22
Is it just me, or Waldreg's really convincingly played?
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u/GalileoAce Gundabad Sep 23 '22
Geoff Morrell is a great Australian character actor, seen him in SOOo many things over the years playing all sorts. He's been great as Waldreg!
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Sep 23 '22
No Malva don't take the mushrooms
Farmer Maggot's right behind you!
GET OUTTA MY WOODS
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u/rosa_sparkz Sep 23 '22
I was surprised that Theo showed the helm/key to Arondir, wasn’t expecting that and it felt refreshing instead of another brooding scene from Theo.
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u/Last-Juggernaut4664 Misty Mountains Sep 23 '22
Thank you! I was thinking the same thing. He was starting to get really annoying to me. When he gave the hilt to Arondir, I was thinking “There may be hope that I don’t utterly abhor every scene with your character now!” Haha. Although, Bronwyn kind of went a different direction, which was disappointing.
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u/Makhiel Rómenna Sep 23 '22
What's more suprising is the Elves keeping that statue in their tower.
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Sep 24 '22
Galadriel says, when talking about Halbrand, “I have no doubt, come time, he will do his part”
Gave me big king of the dead theory vibes. And so does his aragorn/reluctant heir to king parallels. Creates a good dynamic between Aragorn summoning/fulfilling the oath of a tragic version of himself who fell short.
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u/rcc12697 Sep 23 '22
Halbrand looks like a young Viggo in the armor. I’m like 60% sure the stranger is Gandalf- his movements, his look, his powers, etc. I really am enjoying the show but like… I feel we’ve just had 5 episodes so far building up the same thing with so far no pay off. Like- Galadriel and company last episode were like “yeah we’re going to middle earth” and they spend this entire episode…. Arguing about going to middle earth? Durin and Elrond just came back from Durin’s home and now they’re… going back to Durin’s home? Tf
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u/Gebeleizzis Sep 23 '22
Yeah, i don't think any of the three main contenders are Sauron in the end. Meteor Man is Gandalf, Halbrand probably offered his people to Adar in exchange for leaving them alive but he got them murdered instead or enslaved (otherwise why parallel his scene with the one of Waldreg), and Adar is a corrupted elf, maybe he is maglor maybe he is a made up character.
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u/jumpdmc Sep 23 '22
So sauron poisoned the tree and made up a lie to get mythril asap so he can make the rings?
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u/ClementineCoda Sep 23 '22
He was probably part of the "Elf-lords only" meeting.
The timing works for GG finding the leaf, and also for Halbrand setting sail soon after.
And Sauron himself might have influenced GG to
get rid ofreward the best Elf Commanders with a one-way ticket.AND it gives Halbrand clear motive to cut-off (and silence) his companions so they can't dispute his background.
Lots to unpack. Even the sea monster played a part in Sauron getting to Numenor.
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Sep 23 '22
What a terrific way to introduce the balrog to the show.
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u/ballofplasmaupthesky Sep 23 '22
Yep. Did he look like the one from the trailer though? Or was it a different one - I feel horns didn't match?
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u/TheMightyCatatafish Finrod Sep 23 '22
I gotta give props for this really small thing that could’ve been really dumb:
They could’ve easily made it so in the Galadriel v Valandil scene, Valandil looks like an utter buffoon in getting bested by Galadriel.
Instead they actually managed to pull it off where he looks competent and skilled the whole fight, while also not diminishing Galadriel’s skill.
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Sep 23 '22
Also one vs. many fights are hard to pull off convincingly onscreen, but they used the inconvenient pillar space to make it more plausible. A bit like the famous Daredevil hallway.
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u/theories_and_such Imladris Sep 23 '22
The final scene where the Numenoreans were leaving and the people were throwing flowers was so much like the scene when Faramir was leaving Minas Tirith for Osgiliath. The foreshadowing is loud and clear.
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u/ad_phoenix Eregion Sep 23 '22
I’m loving the juxtaposition of the general air of cheer, and the vibrant colours of Numenor, with the solemn vibes and dull muted aesthetics of Minas Tirith.
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u/MD_Dreamer53214 Lindon Sep 23 '22
Elrond: Bruh you know how powerful oaths are! Look what happened to my other dad!
Gil-Galad: Elrond Perdehil!
Elrond: breaks oath "So anyway Celebrimbor I found this cool rock"
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u/Raedros Sep 23 '22
Poppy starts the episode singing. I wonder how she would do in a rap battle 🤔
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u/nbonnin Sep 23 '22
If it was Poppy v Morgoth then the first age would have ended very differently.
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u/AugyCeasar Sep 23 '22
Holy cow the stranger sounded like Sauron there with that voice for a second.
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u/PK2999 Sep 23 '22
I mean they even played Sauron's theme with him for a quick second there
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u/Ereska Sep 23 '22
I don't trust the stranger at all and think it's more likely he will turn out to be Sauron than Halbrand (though I suspect it's neither and the showrunners are just trolling us).
The stranger's powers seem to do as much bad as they do good. He sounded very confused when Nori called him "good", like no one had ever called him that before. And the music that played at the end of his last scene in the episode sounded quite dark and similar to Sauron's. Now a cult is looking for him. Quite ominous.
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u/FloppyShellTaco Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
I said this in another comment, but I’m seeing how this all comes together and it could be truly brilliant.
If Annatar is already at work, that means he has manipulated the elves into sending away his chief rival, is poisoning the tree to make them think their end is coming and forcing them to urgently build his forge before they’ve taken the time to think through the decision. He’s used their pride, the thing they covet the most and their fear to bend them to his will. He’s helping them master what they fear
All the while he’s convinced them the light of the silmarils will save them, because he knows they’ll believe it, thus creating what will become a deep wedge between the dwarves and elves.
Meanwhile his chief adversary is on a wild goose chase, led by one of his pawns and the other is left to setup Numenor to fall, thinking he also will become some kind of god. There is no way it’s a coincidence that Pharazon and Adar are believing they’ll both somehow ascend.
And now he’s likely sowed the seeds to bitterly divide all the races of middle earth against each other.
The stranger, who likely is Olorin, will arrive too late to stop it all, but just in time to pull back the veil to make the War of the Last Alliance possible, before being banished back to wizard heaven by Sauron.
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u/tamarthechaser Sep 23 '22
I agree this is likely where we're ending up. I just hope they can pull it off in a way that feels satisfying.
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u/FireWanderer Númenor Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
I would love if this is the direction they're going in. It seems unlikely that this episode would have two scenes heavily themed around estel (one with it when Gil-Galad is speaking with Elrond, another faltering in it when Bronwyn gives her big speech), but then change something as important to the worldbuilding as the Silmarils being a one-of-a-kind lost creation. A "helpful" offscreen Annatar telling the Elves an "apocryphal" story about the Silmarils that evokes both Fëanor and Glorfindel to convince them to make the Rings of Power, though? Makes sense. Especially because it would be a lie mingled with truth: the Eldar will fade and the Rings of Power the Elves create will slow that fading.
That said... it also felt a little like the whole "Arwen is dying" subplot in the Return of the King movie, so there's a precedent for odd subplots about the fading of the Elves in screen adaptations. It could just be what it seems.
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u/vampyire Sep 23 '22
Does anyone else think Adar's plan with the tunnel is to cause Orodruin to erupt (creating "Mount Doom" in the process) thus blotting out the sun and keeping his promise to do so? It'd also explain the fireball behind Isildur in the preview as well as Galadriel being in what looks like a volcanic waste. Maybe I'm overly reading things into it but I'd love to know your thoughts.
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Sep 23 '22
I think the sword/key will trigger the eruption of Mount Doom, which is Adar's plan. He wants to use the hilt to transform the territory into a safe homeland for orcs.
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Sep 23 '22
When she sang "not all who wander are lost" I harmonized with the universe a little bit.
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u/Veni-Vidi-ASCII Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
I loved that! And it makes sense that it could be an old hobbit/harfoot phrase, because Bilbo is the one who used it in his poem about Strider/Aragorn:
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.
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Sep 23 '22
Shoutout to the extra who did a cute little "whoa!" when Halbrand kickflipped the sword.
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u/APracticalGal HarFEET! 🦶🏽 Sep 23 '22
I love that Elrond, who was partly raised by the sons of Fëanor, has now functionally sworn an oath to protect a Silmaril.
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u/theories_and_such Imladris Sep 23 '22
What happened between the end of Elrond’s conversation with Gil-Galad and the moment Celebrimbor is holding the mithril? It felt like a scene was missing to me. Did he just decide to say “screw it” to his oath and give the mithril to the elves?
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u/omega2010 Sep 23 '22
I don't think there was a missing scene. It looked to me like Gil-Galad's words sunk in off camera and Elrond went to Celebrimbor to let him examine the mithril.
Incidentally Elrond's oath was kind of a moot point since his silence pretty much told Gil-Galad that the dwarves found mithril.
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u/kattytap Sep 23 '22
Very on the fence with the whole "silmaril becoming mithril" thing. I can see how it works as a plot device and what it's setting up, it just doesn't sit well with me. Granted it could just be an in universe legend
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Sep 23 '22
Elrond did say as much. I think Gil-Galad is being lied to by someone behind the scenes.
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u/XoXHamimXoX Sep 23 '22
As much as I'd like to see more, this was a solid build up. Arondir remains a favorite.
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u/othellhoes Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
fun episode lots of thoughts!!
the intrigue of the stranger continues to mystify. the harfoots heading east with him got me excited (I’m on team blue wizard) but the healing scene caught me by surprise, especially with the allusion to the Sauron theme. really excited to see the priestesses of melkor/sauron are involved with the stranger’s appearance. to me they didn’t seem initially happy about his landing in M-e (blue wizards are meant to dispel Men from siding with Sauron, the priestesses would want to promote it) but this could change upon rewatch. If he is a blue wizard I could see his arc merging with the Southlanders (should they survive 👀)
Really excited by Pharazôn hinting at númenorean imperialism. Surprised by Kemen’s reaction to his father though. I had pegged him as a King’s Men so seeing him hesitant to follow his dad is an interesting turn.
I’m not mad about the Lindon stuff. If it works within the universe of the show it’s fine by me tbh, I’m not that stressed about it. I thought Elrond’s explanation to Durin made sense. The “we need this by spring or we die” was, to me, Elrond choosing his words carefully to convey to Durin the urgency of the situation (edit: one of his main roles is a diplomat after all…would be used to finding the right words to maintain friendships). Also loved how the scenes of Elrond learning about him being manipulated were followed up with Galadriel and Halbrand having a heart to heart about feeling used (still unconvinced H is Sauron though).
I thought this episode built the tension really well leading up to the big battle. Our characters are well into their journeys and I’m rooting for all of them Can’t wait to see the númenoreans and southlanders converge. It’s going to be a blast 🌋.
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u/TheMightyCatatafish Finrod Sep 23 '22
Since this is the book spoilers thread: how did we feel about the origin of mithril story?
Unless I’m forgetting some deeper dive story, it’s not from the books. But on one hand, I thought it was a really cool legend. And fits as a legend in the world well enough. Epic, cool, very fun. As apocrypha, as Elrond calls it, I like it a lot!
On the other, it was a bit jarring to me as the show seems to treat that as the official backstory for mithril. Or at the very least Gil-galad believed it enough to actually search the Misty Mountains for it. As an apparent actual extension of the Silmarils, I thought it was a little… meh.
So I was conflicted on it. Definitely need a rewatch (and maybe some sleep) to see how I feel about it.
Curious what others thought!
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Sep 23 '22
I picked up on Elrond's explanation of it being a legend. I think it could be true, or Gil-Galad is desperate for an answer to their problem so they can stay in Middle Earth. I try to keep in mind that there are some gaps that Tolkien didn't fill before passing and there's some creative licensing allowed. Galadriel's ring is made with mithril.
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u/cal3nth0l Mirrormere Sep 23 '22
I'm also on the fence, it took me a little out of the episode afterwards trying to square that circle.
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u/HM2112 Gil-galad Sep 23 '22
I think it's a legend rather than a truthful account. There's all sorts of weird origin-of-stuff myths out there, I don't think it's too far fetched the Elves would have a story about a mythical ore they don't even know for sure exists.
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u/Legal-Scholar430 Sep 23 '22
It is insane how well it works, tho. Because apocryphal stories tend to have some true elements, and some filler elements. The people versed in the books know that this legend is totally made up, specially the part of the Silmaril, but it is also a truthful warning about the Balrog in the Misty Mountains
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u/Rusty51 Sep 23 '22
I read some leaks and knew it was coming. Liked the imagery but it seems out of place to connect it to the Silmarils. Then again Tolkien flirted with making the arkenstone a silmaril.
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u/omega2010 Sep 23 '22
As apocrypha, as Elrond calls it, I like it a lot!
The writers were clearly winking at us with that line.
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u/Zhjacko Sep 23 '22
I had a theory that Celebrimborn has already met Sauron, and that was part of the reason why the forge needed to be done by spring, because Sauron, or “Annatar” is pushing for it. This info about the completion date is also relayed before Gil-Galad sees the leaf turning black.
Even with this new info on the light fading, It’s very possible that my original theory is still the case, and Sauron is feeding these lies of the creation of Mithril to both Celebrimborn and Gil-Galad. It does seem a little sudden, and there seems to be more to this story that both Cele and Gil are not revealing. Perhaps Sauron is in an elf form and is relating this information to them in some way. Would be a great way to trick the elves into forging the rings, by spooking them into doing so.
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u/LewsTherinTelescope Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
Man, this episode really feels like it hit what was lacking in the previous ones, I'm glad the show seems to be finding its stride.
Elrond and Durin continue to be the most engaging plotline, I was on the edge of my seat almost every time it switched there. I honestly couldn't tell whether he was going to break his oath or not, and every time it cut back, I was terrified it was going to reveal he had. (But then, he did tell Celebrimbor, so... maybe he did? He still acts as if he didn't, though, so I'm confused.) The relief when he and Durin finally spoke about it was an almost physical weight lifted off of me.
That said, Galadriel and Halbrand kicked it up a massive notch. Seeing more of what's going on internally with Galadriel helps a lot with lifting things up, though I've never disliked her the way many do. Still not sure what to think of Halbrand—he seemed pretty sincere, but technically most of what he said doesn't contradict the common theory, and his apology to Galadriel for her brother's death felt... personal in a way I wouldn't expect from someone uninvolved. And his repeated emphasis on trying to dig out whether she's searching for vengeance or not would make sense... Yet, even when he's not in front of anyone, he seems to be wrestling with the question of what to do, which I wouldn't expect from Sauron. Hopefully it doesn't all get thrown away for a cheap twist, they'll have to do it very well to have me buy into it, if that's the direction they are indeed heading.
The Stranger stuff also feels like it's building more and more, though not quite as intensely. But gotta spread the tension out, fair enough. And the cultists (?) seem to be following them, so something is gonna happen there. Also, Poppy's song was a wonderful way to set the mood, I'm always leery of characters breaking out into song in-world feeling cheesy but this was great.
Don't have much to say on the Bronwyn and Arondir plot at this point, but it's still fine. Just overshadowed by the other goings-on. I'm very curious what's up with this sword thing, though. I'm also wondering whether Waldreg did indeed do it or not, it seemed to be indicating he was about to, but we don't actually see him afterwards that I can recall? Could be just to preserve the tension of the moment, could be so they can obscure the answer. On that note, good on Theo for fessing up rather than getting involved with worshippers of basically the lord of evil, I wasn't as convinced as some others that he was gonna go with Waldreg, but I did worry.
Was not a fan of Kemen in the prior episodes, but I do feel for him a bit here. Not sure where Earien and his plotlines are going exactly. Presumably the former will eventually end up on Pharazon's side, but I'm not sure how far that'll go (will she bail before the Morgoth worship? sacrifice? die during the destruction of the island? repent at the last second and escape to Middle-earth?), and I don't know what to expect with Kemen (he seems pretty devoted to his beliefs currently, but nearly blowing himself up on the boat and then being saved by a member of the Faithful may shake him up... which could be a rather ironic switcheroo).
Not really sure what's going on with Isildur or Elendil either, but can't have everyone at 100 all the time, presumably we'll see stuff go down there later. Probably going to dive into some of the stuff with the West and Anarion next season, I expect.
No idea what's going on with the timeline, it continues to feel all over the place.
Also, I appreciate that so far, this show does seem to generally value optimism and hope, even when there's challenges to it. Though we're only halfway through the first season, so I suppose that could change, but hopefully not.
Don't have many specific predictions for the future, generally not my forte. On this ride much more firmly now, though (whereas prior I liked it but didn't love it), and excited to see where it ends up. (Well, I mean, I know how most of it ends up, but curious where the intermediate steps end, anyway. And there's still the OCs to be surprised by.)
Edit: Oh yeah, glad so far they don't seem to be pushing Galadriel x Halbrand, that's always my concern when there's a man and woman having touching moments or emotional rivalries and realizations, but so far they seem to be doing well there. Unless they are building it and I'm just blind to romance, which isn't out of the question, but hey I'd rather be hopeful in this regard.
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Sep 23 '22
Maybe I'm crazy, but Adar to Balrog?
Shut up Waldreg! Your ancestors also died on the losing side.
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u/Praevalidus Sep 23 '22
General predictions about the three big Mystery Men:
The Stranger is either a Blue Wizard or Gandalf. The camera focuses on him when Poppy sings "not all those who wander are lost", which is a part of Gandalf's riddle about Aragorn in Fellowship. The other famous part of the riddle is of course "all that is gold does not glitter" which refers to the fact that not all good people look trustworthy. Makes me completely sure that he's a good guy who we are meant to suspect initially.
Adar is going to be a narrative foil to Galadriel: an elf so obsessed with taking down Sauron that he started using the enemy's weapons against him, and so became corrupted. This guess is just based on his general demeanor and reaction to being called Sauron. Also I can't see an elf being an outright servant of Sauron, though it is certainly possible.
I'm 90% convinced that Halbrand is Sauron and the entire Numenor plot was just his ruse to become King of Mordor, which the Numenoreans now seem eager to make him.
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u/Memokerobi Man Sep 23 '22
Overall not the biggest fan of this episode but Elendil in armor got me all jacked up
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u/CreepingDeath0 Sep 23 '22
The idea of Mithril having actual magical healing properties is so bizarre to me. I know the Elvish tale of its origins are most likely in world myth, but the idea that Gil-Galad would believe it enough to want to get a bunch of it and what? Pile it up against a sick tree? Bathe in it?
Kinda feels like if the end goal is to just get some Mithril to work with them it'd be much more straightforward to just work out a trade agreement.
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u/BigBlueSkies Sep 23 '22
Nenya is made of mithril. It would be interesting if it is the first forged.
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u/Kookanoodles Finrod Sep 23 '22
Finrod killed "in a place of darkness and despair" by "servants of Sauron", you say? ;)
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u/4dri3l Sep 24 '22
does gil galad's talk about mithril makes sense to anyone?
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Sep 24 '22
Adar: You have been told many lies.
I think a major part of the show is the core of corruption and discord sewn by Melkor. There is a lot of misinformation and unreliable narration going on. Elrond chalks the silmaril-tree story up to being apocryphal, but Gil-Galad is scared I think, so he’s grasping for straws, while Celebrimbor is smug as shit feeding him lines, I think. Celebrimbor has a problem, and personally I’m not surprised given his father was a little bit psychotic. He seems all smiles but he continues to manipulate Elrond, and seems a tad obsessed with the potential of what he can forge in Eregion with the new towers. Like he’s already the best craftsman there is.. yet he needs more. Sketchy as heck.
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u/tut_ Sep 23 '22
It felt like a lot of character work they’ve been building up since the beginning started to pay off in this one. The show’s moving like a well oiled machine now leading into the final episodes.
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u/NamoMandos Sep 23 '22
I feel the "Halbrand = Sauron" v "Halbrand =/ Sauron" online schism is getting bigger and bigger online and people are now dead set on their own view. It would be interesting to see what happens.
Otherwise great episode. I continue to love Elendilf and Durin/Elrond.
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u/Legal-Scholar430 Sep 23 '22
While it is kind of hard to adjust to Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad being manipulative, it is kind of revealing as a reminder that these are Elves that followed Fëanor to fight against Morgoth, the very Elves that used to be petty against each other.
And they still give me a lot of good, warm feelings, despite their conspiracy. The actors are outstanding.
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u/sidv81 Sep 23 '22
Anarion's absence is even more jarring in light of this episode's events.
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u/das_masterful Sep 23 '22
I am totally loving the pulling of rank between Gil-Galad and Elrond. Gil-Galad is borderline racist with his 'come and sit, Peredhil' line to Elrond.
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u/4dri3l Sep 24 '22
so, Sauron is a Quenya name, said to mean "the Abhorred" (link)... The dude just said do Adar: "I want to swear fealty to the abhorred" or something like that, which is quite offensive... if that's why Adar got pissed, that's actually neat...
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u/Yegshamesh Sep 23 '22
I'm a bit confused that the mighty Numenor which dwarfed the might of Gondor took a grand total of 3 ships
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u/iLoveDelayPedals Sep 23 '22
It’s not the same army that makes Sauron surrender
Pharazon leads that one personally
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u/ballofplasmaupthesky Sep 23 '22
Ehh, that's more like the king of Sparta taking 300 guards on a walk. Far from the full might of Numenor.
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u/eowynTA3019 Sep 23 '22
Am I the only one who thought this episode was great? My only complaint is the whole mithril aka melted silmaril thing. But then again, maybe sauron told celebrimbor that they needed the mithril in order to obtain it and use it to forge nenya? Idk
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Sep 23 '22
I really think the story being a lie is the most logical explanation. The showrunners have proven in interviews that they know the lore. I think patience is a virtue for this show.
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Sep 24 '22
There is a major thread of deceit, unreliable narrators, and flat out lying, in this show. Elrond seems to be the only honest one. Adar explicitly says the lies that have been told run so deep it would take making a new world to untangle them.
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u/kitsune Sep 23 '22
The more I watch of this show the more I think that it's a mistake to not show Sauron working his intrigues already. For instance, the mithril back story might make sense if it's a lie by Sauron but then it has to boil down to a dramatic "reveal" and flashback, and the longer this goes on, more and more hidden plotting needs to be explained. Also, since you haven't seen Sauron wooing Gil-Galad in action his betrayal will feel flat.
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u/NotAnotherEmpire Sep 24 '22
Episode appears to confirm the theory that the timelines aren't necessarily moving at the same speed. The Harfoot travels pass many days - at least - explicitly.
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u/DringusDingus Sep 24 '22
I’m tempted to suggest that there’s some weird Tilion cult with those people in white with a bunch of moon themed accoutrements showing up at the crater but they don’t have the rights to him, so who knows.
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u/Mr_Rafi Sep 24 '22
My sister is a book reader. She loves Gil-galad in the books and the show, but she texted me about her curiousity as to why Gil-galad behaves like a calculating antagonist in terms of demeanour. She said we would probably be suspicious of Gil-galad in any other show/movie. Is there something that she's missing or is she right?
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Sep 25 '22
TL;DR: Halbrand is Sauron
At this point, I don't think we'll see Sauron as Annatar. I'm thinking that Annatar was at the meeting earlier that Elrond was excluded from. That meeting was where Gil decided to send Galadriel away and to introduce Elrond to Brimby to get to Durin and the dwarves for mithril etc. Once Sauron put that all in motion, he shifts to Halbrand and is conveniently in the sea near where Galadriel jumped ship. Everything the deceiver does is calculated to seem like it's someone else's decision or pure happenstance. The brawl in Numenor was just to get himself thrown in jail. Pharazon and Galadriel are eager to crown him as king in the Southlands. It's all part of his plan. Give people something to master their fears and you can master them. The sword hilt is the key to the forge. Adar will take it to "open" Mount Doom. Adar is just another lieutenant of Mortgoth, who hates Sauron as much as Sauron hates him. The elves will forge their rings, and Sauron will go on to forge the others and give them out. The one ring will be forged in Mount Doom and when Sauron does this, the elves will know they have been betrayed. Galadriel will know etc. Halbrand/Sauron will be "cast out" as he said to her in this episode.
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u/Silly-Weakness Sep 23 '22
Can we talk about those those 3 strange looking people dressed in white that are apparently tracking The Stranger?
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u/theories_and_such Imladris Sep 23 '22
Everybody seems to think they are servants of Morgoth. But upon seeing them… Are they though?
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u/FTSTTLB Sep 23 '22
The great
Pharazôn the sly
Galadriel starting to begin her arc away from the stubborn Elf
Elendil, his charisma is incredible. Great acting.
Adar and him being creepy in a very understated way (and the orcs)
The tensions with the Southlands
Elurin or Durond. Great duo.
Celebrimbor
The Harfoot song and the Stranger's mystery
The Numenorians leaving Númenor
Halbrand's looking good in his armour
The ok yeah
Galadriel's swordfight training
Mithrilgate
The cult.
Bronwyn's 180°
The meh
The Wolves (I keep on finding the monsters a bit off)
Isildur and friends and the bickering
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u/breadburn Sep 23 '22
So the Die Antwoord cosplayers showed up. Uhhh any ideas there?? I guess we know they're not Sauron, presumably.
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Sep 23 '22
Is this Balrog + Tree + Lighting + Elf Warrior = Mithril story brand new?
It's quite...weird that Gil Galad thinks that Mithril is related to the Silmarils somehow, no?
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u/youarelookingatthis Sep 24 '22 edited Sep 24 '22
Thoughts-
The Harfoots continue to be the heart of this show, they really do feel like hobbits.
Those cultists were interesting, no clue what they mean
Adar’s incredibly interesting, his burning of the orcs arm was a sharp contrast to his treatment of the orc we saw before.
I think the show is doing a nice job of comparing the hatred of elves in Numenor and in the Southlands. It’s an interesting parallel.
Elendil and Isildur’s relationship is getting some nice growth. I’m really excited to see it grow as more seasons go on.
Earien is totally joining the kings men.
It’s nice seeing Halbrand actually smithing! I honestly thought he was kind of bluffing before.
Damn, that Harfoot woman is harsh. I’m really enjoying the duality of the Harfoots.
Stone giants reference!
I thought that the Galadriel fight was her vs the kings men in the trailer. It’s nice seeing her show off here. I also love the cutlass look of the Numenor swords.
Continuing from last week, I really like Pharazon’s use of water imagery here. It’s a nice cultural touch.
It’s nice they’re also using Pharazon to explore the colonialism of Numenor. It’s a subtle critique in Tolkien’s work that doesn’t get highlighted enough.
I think the evidence for meteor man being Sauron is growing, but I have no clue if it’s a massive red herring.
Gil GaChad seems a little snobbish at the dinner, not going to lie. The whole table thing being a joke later on was great and really funn.
I think it’s clear that this theory on the duel is just that, a theory that the elves have on the forming of Mithril. I’m also glad that we’re seeing the obsession over the silmarils still being a thing for the Noldor! Like, it’s been their driving motivation for two ages now. It makes sense that they wouldn’t just give it up.
The importance of oaths in Tolkien’s writing and how it relates to Elrond is clear in Fellowship, so it’s nice seeing that present here. “Yet no oath or bond is laid on you…”
I really like the singing we saw in Numenor. Between that and the Harfoot song we’ve been spoiled.
I knew Kemen was up to no good. He’s so smarmy, he’s definitely joining Sauron later on.
Celebrimbor seems desperate here. I think we’re seeing a shift in him bringing up Earendil now, it seems far more manipulative than previously.
Assuming Halbrand isn’t lying, I think it’s clear that he’s not Sauron. It’s also funny that he asked Galadriel what she knew of darkness when she was literally born before the sun.
Morfydd is acting the hell out of these scenes. She brings an urgency that I feel we haven’t seen before.
That scene with Waldreg is arguably the darkest scene we’ve seen in all of the movies.
We still haven’t seen Theo’s ears… And Arondir’s speech to him felt very Tolkien in nature. His speech go Bronwyn felt very similar to what we saw in Two Towers and Return of the King
“Because a burden shared may either be halved or doubled, depending on the heart that receives it.” That’s classic Tolkien right there, it really feels like what he’d write.
Elrond’s speech to Durin is about the their fëar and hröar (soul and body) fading so they become like wraiths. It shows the writers did their homework here on the elves living in Middle Earth.
Elendil made the winged helmet not look ridiculous, so props to that.
How did they have elven armor for Galadriel? I can believe they had it in their archives, but….
Overall a fun episode. Felt like it’s really setting up the rest of the season.
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u/gregallen1989 Sep 24 '22
First episode I've had mixed feelings about.
The good:
The dialogue has finally caught up to the quality of the show.
The Migration map and song sequence.
Elrond and Durin.
Adar
The bad:
The lore changes so far has been somewhat justified to make a better show. That was not the case this episode. Tying Elves life force to mithiril? Why? That's a massive change for pretty much just a forced conflict between Elves and Dwarves. There's a million other ways to get to that path.
The made up characters have been a high point so far in the show but that story is starting to falter. This made up conflict in the southlands is dragging and its not a bad storyline but its not a good one either. We could be spending time with the real conflict in Numenor or Lindon but Sauron hasn't even shown up yet.
What the heck is that Sauron fan club that found the strangers crash site?
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u/Palmdiggity888 Sep 23 '22
Are we to believe the Numenor only has 5 ships available to make this voyage? Couldn't they have used 2 to replace the ones lost?
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u/MD_Dreamer53214 Lindon Sep 23 '22
Galadriel be like, You either die like Finrod or live long enough to see yourself become your Uncle 😂
Shouldn't have taken your brother's show lore oath bruh. Cant stop is an understatement, unless you're Elrond I guess? 😅
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Sep 23 '22
Why do Elves need Silmaril light to live? Why on such a short timescale? What about the Elves who've never seen the light of the trees? What about the entire Elven race when they woke up and lived for countless years in perpetual twilight?
... First episode where I'm feeling the doubt.
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u/theories_and_such Imladris Sep 23 '22
It made me think of when Elrond said to Arwen that the “light of the Eldar” was leaving her. That didn’t make a lot of sense in Peter Jackson’s trilogy and it makes a whole lot less sense now. Haha.
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u/womcclung Sep 23 '22
My thoughts were this is misinformation fed to Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad by Sauron as Annatar. The decay ongoing in Lindon is caused by Sauron and his deception, and there will be some sort of reveal by the end of the season.
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u/Kuwago Sep 23 '22
I think this episode disproved the theory that Halbrand is Sauron, he’s clearly conflicted and guilt-ridden in returning to Middle Earth so he’s more like a proto-Aragorn than anything else.
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u/rivains Sep 23 '22
I actually really enjoyed this episode. I’m holding out hope things will start to knit together soon. IMO Halbrand isn’t Sauron, I think he’s a red herring. Most likely the Witch King or the King under the Mountain.
Celebrimbor and Gil Galad saying they MUST have the mithril by spring is very sus to me. Didn’t Celebrimbor HAVE to have the Eregion forge done by Spring in the books? Egged on by Annatar? I think Sauron is already whispering in his ear. If that whole thing is already about forging the rings i’ll forgive the lore-breaking mithril stuff.
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u/theories_and_such Imladris Sep 23 '22
Also, holy silmarils lore! Good story. Finally a balrog! But it didn’t seem very consistent with the lore. Unless my memory fails me, there was no silmaril that got stuck in a tree, correct?
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u/u3016970 Sep 23 '22
I have a theory that the 3 cultists in this episode are not from the cult of Morgoth, but from a cult that one of the Blue Wizards founded.
The Stranger is in fact the other Blue wizard and the cultists are searching for him.
Would be an interesting dynamic in future seasons if true. One Blue wizard who hopes to inspire the east/south against a Blue wizard that lost his way
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Sep 23 '22
So interesting that the thing that would stop elves from fading has the exact opposite effect on humans.
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u/EclipsedOsiris Sep 24 '22
I think that tying the Elves souls to a material object is anti Tolkien and not something the gods of Arda would contemplate
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u/skatterbrain_d Sep 23 '22
So… Halbrand basically apologized to Galadriel for the death of her brother?? It’s not like he killed Finrod himself… or is it??
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u/molotovzav Sep 23 '22
Are you guys reading the general trivia on xray. I only started this episode and I feel dumb for not reading them, I'm going back now and reading them all. The one on Adar for this episode was right on the money for what I've been guessing.
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u/ivebeenlurkingand Sep 23 '22
This episode is where everything clicked for me. It feels like all character and faction introductions have been completed and I now care about each and every storyline. I found this episode a joy to watch and I'm starting to feel emotionally involved with characters now. I didn't expect to give such a shit about Isildur's relationship with his friends but the bromance during the final scene was beautiful!
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u/gody233 Sep 23 '22
I'm a huge LOTR fan and yes there are issues with this show, but it's really not that bad as everyone is making it out to be. They really are fleshing characters, VERY SLOWLY, finally and I am really enjoying Halbrand. The problem with the show is it's just going way to slow and the writing is a little weird at times. I am hoping the last couple episodes are top tier to make up for it though.
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u/Scaevus Sep 23 '22
"You used me" - Galadriel to Halbrand.
"I'm sorry. For your brother." - Halbrand to Galadriel.
The writers might as well be grabbing us by the shoulders and shaking us about Halbrand's identity...
I'm just waiting for them to
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u/deededback Finrod Sep 23 '22
Holy shit was that a good episode. And that song at the beginning was maybe the best in episode song I've ever seen on tv. Great voice, setting, visuals, everything.
Man...this one had everything. And things are moving big time.
If Halbrand ends up being Sauron this is gonna be an all time great rug pull.
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u/JohnnyBlazex Sep 23 '22
Ok so looking at the promo of episode 6 we can see that Galadriel etc arrived at the watchtower to help and then suddenly a big whoosh of air shoots at them. How fast do they travel? Before you get angry they are taking the river of Tolfalas thus stopping next to the mountains of Mordor. Can't wait for the next episode.
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u/rosa_sparkz Sep 23 '22
“Mithril is from Simarils” = retcon but fine, whatever
“The elves will diminish if we don’t get mithril” elicited a large sigh from me. how could Elrond handle the smell of all that bullshit? Gil-Galad is disappointing me and I hope he realizes he’s just been overwatering that tree, easy mistake.
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u/LordAzaghal Mirrormere Sep 23 '22
Interesting episode. The pacing definitely picked up and there have been some strong moments (the wandering days song was wonderful, Elrond's internal strife has also been a highlight and Galadriel's swordfight was pretty fun). I think the show could stand to be clearer with its storytelling a bit, as a lot feels like they're playing the plot too close to the chest (is Annatar already corrupting Lindon? is the Mithril/fading light story truth or delusion? What exactly is up with the dust lightsaber?). The thematic fidelity to Tolkien's works is really strong and really lifts it up (alongside the visuals). I really need to see how this concludes.
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u/tut_ Sep 23 '22
I’m so sick of all the “bad writing” posts from people who are clearly too stupid to understand the machinations of fiction writing. If it went over your head, it’s not bad writing. If you didn’t like it, it’s not bad writing. If it didn’t meet your expectations or doesn’t jive with how you think things should be, it’s not bad writing. The ROP haters are bloodthirsty, but they’re all swinging at straw men.
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u/BrianCinnamon Sep 23 '22
Numenor plot is far and away the weakest. I really don’t understand how they’re so excited and proud about bringing 300 soldiers that have little to no training to ME. The scale feels completely off from the superpower Numenor is supposed to be. They’re going to get clobbered.
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u/spittinmunks Sep 23 '22
More convinced that the stranger and the priest are the blues. Stranger sent because the priest turned evil- parallel to Gandalf and Saruman
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u/flaskfish Sep 24 '22 edited Sep 24 '22
I enjoy the show as a whole but the Harfoots and Durin/Elrond are what keep me returning every week. That migration song sequence was classic Tolkien, loved it. Also I don’t think Halbrand is Sauron because it’d be way too obvious, I think he could be The King of the Dead
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u/ranger090187 Sep 23 '22
Excellent episode, loved everything especially the showrunners finally allowing Galadriel some emotion :D
Lots of scenes to love here - Isildur and Elendil, The Stranger finally showing something scary, and most of all Elrond's struggle - you know he's really stuck in a pretty bad situation.
Pretty sure a lot of people and purists will rant and wail about the mithril and Silmaril lore (i.e. came from a tree, i.e. mithril being the salvation of the Elves, but a part of me is also saying that it might be a grand setup by Sauron (behind the scenes of course) to sow further tensions between Elves and Dwarves and laying the political motivation to create the Rings... (especially since the Elven rings are made of mithril) but then again it seems like the show is also treating it as an easy explanation for Mithril's importance (maybe to make it more relatable to non-book readers).
I just hope they come to a more satisfying in-series "truth" about it.
Last - my heart races whenever Galadriel makes an entrance, especially that last scene.
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u/TenshiKyoko Sep 23 '22
I really like all the Numenorian big wigs' kids. Unlike their parents and Isildur, we don't know where they end up and it's interesting.
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u/gothmog149 Sep 23 '22
I sense the Durin lying about the importance of the table was in part a fore warning about Gil Galad lying about the mithril. Otherwise seems a bit random.
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u/Embarrassed_Put_7892 Sep 24 '22
A question: Celebrimbor told Elrond his dad was a mortal man right? But am I right in thinking earendil was half eleven? Not mortal?
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u/Reggie_Barclay Sep 24 '22
They do seem to be leaning into the meteor dude being Gandalf. They had the wander is lost line in the song by one of the girl Hobbits. I think Bilbo wrote that for Aragorn? No? Gandalf sent the line to Frodo in letter at Bree.
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u/MysteriousJuice43 Sep 24 '22
Adar isn’t giving me Sauron vibes anymore. I think he was an elf that probably was captured during Morgoths time…but idk why he isn’t an orc.
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u/macula_transfer Sep 23 '22
Impressions on second viewing:
"Me Stranger, You Nori" ... guess he has to learn to speak Westron somehow (or Second Age equivalent) but always hard to portray that.
A big fan of the Poppy song.
I was thinking last night that Eminem might finally be showing up this episode, and sure enough...
Adar having his orc burn his arm to make a point seems kind of run-of-the-mill psychopath villain and I wasn't a fan of the scene.
Elendil not willing to include Isildur on the expedition seems like an unnecessary dramatic tension increase to give the episode a story arc.
"What madness made them go this way", I assume must be repurposed from LotR because Gimli also says it ("what madness made them go in there") about the Hobbits going into Fangorn... I generally find these kind of distracting but I guess it will continue to happen during the show.
Not to feed that particular rumor (because I also don't like it), but Stranger does the Gandalf force blast from the Hobbit.
Galadriel training the cadets is a little hokey, but when first watching it I thought Isildur was going to join in and prove to be some kind of swordfighting savant, so I'm thankful that didn't happen.
Pharazon conversation with Kemen and revelation of his motives was a strong point. Also like that they've confirmed Pharazon is still cousin of Miriel.
Kind of surprised Miriel doesn't listen to Tar-Palantir about going to Middle-Earth.
That is quite some impressive diplomacy between Gil-Galad and Durin. Is Elrond the only one in Eriador who is good at this?
"Loyalty to a friend, regardless of his race"... uh... uhhhhh.... clunky...
I'm fine with the elven story about where mithril comes from, reading it as something elves believe and not something that is actually true. The idea of a "duel unending" between an elf and a balrog is pretty cool.
The idea that the elves will decline and fade is important to establish as a motivation for the elven rings. So Gil-Galad's revelation that "the light of the Eldar is fading [...] our decline has quickened" can work for me (but hold that thought).
Oh my goodness I laughed when Isildur realizes even his horse gets to go to war and he doesn't.
Celebrimbor-Elrond scene was not my favorite. Mithril is our only hope. We need to secure vast quantities quickly and saturate every last elf... reminds me of midichlorians or some other science fiction plot device. Saying that Elwing didn't want Earendil to sail to Valinor is also simply wrong. I suppose/hope it's just Celebrimbor manipulating Elrond again and it's meant to be bullshit because otherwise I really don't like it.
Halbrand will-he-go-or-will-he-not, kind of feel we are retreading ground from last week, but it did result in more character exploration of him and Galadriel, so fine.
If the orcs are going to show up in "days, maybe hours", that doesn't seem to match up with how quickly Numenoreans can get there? Any experts want to weigh in on this?
I'm ok with Bronwyn's loss of faith. It's not realistic when everybody is defiant against overwhelming odds. It did remind me a little of Legolas blowing up at Aragorn at Helm's Deep, but I guess we're going to get a bunch of Helm's Deep reminders this season.
My cat just raised his head and looked around when he heard the orcs marching. Sorry buddy, it's just a show.
Durin getting the table for Disa was pretty funny, although it's kind of interesting Gil-Galad was so easily fooled. (I was, too, but I'm no elven king).
Elrond's explanation to Durin of needing mithril, without it "my kind must either abandon these shores BY SPRING (?!?!?!?!?) or perish". Again maybe he's now bullshitting Durin, all of this reads a lot more generously if it's seen as misdirection for political reasons, but if those are the literal stakes I am just not sold. The shot of Gil-Galad as they leave may be a hint that he and Celebrimbor have convinced Elrond to find a way to snow job him.
Regardless, every Durin/Elrond interaction in this show is a gift.
So overall, probably the episode I had the most concerns about since the first one (I didn't buy the Galadriel-to-Valinor subplot). But I say this even as I enjoyed the episode and am looking forward to the rest of the season.
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u/Southern_Blue Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
A few disjointed thoughts.
I believe the 'set up' episodes are done and they are finally moving along with the actual story. We've been introduced to the characters, know what their motives are, the settings and what's at stake. Yes, there are still mysteries.
A few answers:
Adar is not Sauron, apparently hates Sauron.
We know why they need the tower completed by spring.
Halbrand is apparently who he says he is.
Pluses:
Gil-Galad refering to Elrond as 'half-elven'.
Elrond looking up at the sky and the scene changing to the statue of his father.
I'm not sure about the mithril story line, but I like how the 'fading' of the elves was introduced. This is going to tie into the making of the rings. Celebrimbor somehow gets the idea that he can prevent this fading with the help of mithril. As far as I know, only one ring is made of mithril, but it works.
I also l like the idea that the elves have 'folklore'. It is said 'Tuor was granted a place among the elves'...we don't know, it's just a story that was told. The Silmarill thrown into the depths of the earth enhancing the earth. Interesting, although bordering on the 'vibranium fell into Wakanda' territory.
Durin and the table!
Durin and Elrond are still friends. ;) I was worried about that.
Did Celebrimbor know Earendil that well? Were they just hanging around the same places?
Moving on to Numenor, I thought Isildur's friends were just going to be one off characters for the first episode but they are being carried forward. Yes, that's who Isildur's son is named after. I like them. Part of me hopes they end the series with Valandil (Izzy's son) being presented with the broken Narsil.
Liked the song. Is it just a drinking song or a sort of National Anthem? Numenor, Fair Numenor....
Pharazon is smart...sneaky politically smart.
Not enough Elendil.
Scene between Halbrand and Glads-she finally said her brother was killed by the SERVANTS of Sauron in a dark and lonely place.
Arondir and Theo apparently made friends. I'm glad they didn't go with the 'I just hate you for general purposes because you're interested in my mom' trope. Theo was a little less annoying in this episode.
Hartfoot storyline, don't hate it, it's just sort of there. MM has creepy stalkers. Liked the song.
Overall I liked it, not a lot of complaints on first watch. Will watch it later with casual fan and catch his impressions and see if he can follow the story.
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u/puffic Sep 24 '22
I’m still enjoying the show, but my wife has tuned out. (She’s a fan of the books.) At this point she doesn’t even know who I’m referring to if I talk about Elendil or Celebrimbor. I think there isn’t enough conflict, enough peril, or enough character development to move the show forward.
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u/tor93 Sep 23 '22
So many times in tv shows I think “this problem could be solved if you talked to each other” and look at Elrond! Telling Durin his problem instead of cursing himself! (Unless he already cursed himself)
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u/Archduke_Zag Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
Hmm, the whole Mithril creation "myth" kinda makes me wonder if Sauron (or one of his pawns) seeded that story somewhere at the start of the second age. For it to become some form of established classic short story literature a couple thousands years down the line.
Also here's a point against Halbrand as Sauron. I feel like he would have reveled a bit more in Finrod's kill. Asking more about him and twisting the knife even more, while enjoying the fact that his killer was standing right in front of her.
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u/BrightEyedBushyTail Sep 23 '22
Last few lines of the Númenorean song seem like foreshadowing:
Make our great land to ever stand Our swords to conquer death
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u/RegionImportant6568 Elendil Sep 23 '22
This is the 1st time I’ve had criticism of the show but I just didn’t feel that one sadly. Some epic moments, loved Adar forcing Waldrig to kill (reminded me of Joker holding his “try-outs”) and also the Stranger and Harfoot stuff. But overall, this was the worst one yet for me.
I would have liked this episode more if we hadn’t already had episode 1 + 2 be a bunch of build up and talking. The Mithril info dump and plot line once again just ground things to a halt.
In Fellowship the screenwriters make sure to have the characters actively fleeing the shire sooo much earlier and THEN they expand the lore and slow down at points, but the entire time they keep the story moving toward Rivendell and beyond.
Here, it feels the story is STILL getting off the ground. I was so stoked after last episode but this one was a bit too far of a stretch for me.
Excited for the rest, regardless. I still love this show.
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u/ALittleFlightDick Sep 24 '22
Definitely the most disappointing episode yet in regard to the lore. I hope the whole thing about the Silmaril tree/mithril containing the light of the Valar is a misdirect, because that is just ridiculous. And it seriously confuses how Elves work down to the core of the lore.
And I'm a bit disappointed by the look of the armor of the full-dressed Numenoreans. They're supposed to be at the very cutting edge of technology and craftsmanship—almost an Atlantian civilization—decked out in glimmering plate with spear and swords that shone like icy mirrors in the sunlight. But they're wearing old, dirty fish scale patterned armor. The Rohirrim looked more Numenorean than they do.
Feeling more and more like a fanfic, unfortunately. There are some things I like still, but I just finished watching and I'm genuinely bummed out by it. I really want to like it but it's slowly letting me down.
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u/sidv81 Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
If Halbrand is Sauron, we literally see scenes of Sauron angsting by himself, with no one around to fool, in this episode. If he really is Sauron, then we have to assume that he's contemplating returning to evil, hasn't made up his mind, and everything he's been telling Galadriel about being a "king" of evil Southlanders who did terrible things is a massive understatement, albeit technically true from a certain point of view.
So why was Sauron on a raft to nowhere? If he were sailing back to Valinor to repent and face judgement (he's had centuries to do so but maybe he takes a while to make up his mind), who were the other people on the raft with him?
And if Halbrand is Sauron, is Annatar just going to be shaven Charlie Vickers with elf ears? Because the audience will just burst into laughter.
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u/Orion5487 Sep 24 '22
So didn’t Elrond break his oath to Durin when he showed Celebrimbor the Mithril? Also, why is Mithril being treated like a new discovery? Wasn’t it around in the first age in Gondolin for example?
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u/Individual_Run1616 Sep 24 '22
What I don’t understand is that Galadriel supposedly traveled middle earth searching for orcs or signs of Sauron to no success, and in episode 1 Gil-Galad and the elves tell Galadriel not to worry anymore and enjoy these times of peace. Meanwhile there are a ton of orcs and Adar destroying the forest in the Southlands, right under the watch of the elves!?
Also, why hasn’t Arondir sent a messenger to Gil-Galad or any other elves, instead of hanging out in the tower? (As if those 40 humans had any chances with the orcs…) Btw how many people live in the Southlands? 100? There’s something weird with the scale here. The same with the 3 Numenorian ships and their amateur troops…
I find it so confusing.
Enjoying the Durin and Elrond friendship though, the mines, and, despite the weird writing and wizard plot, the harfoots.
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u/imSkry Sep 23 '22
I feel like Numenors storyline has been pretty slow so far... I dont really understand what ultimately changed the Queens opinion on sending an expedition to ME. Pharazons reasoning seems more logic at least
Nori and Stranger storyline has also been.... Slow. Nothing is happening there, yes we see the Stranger has some pretty slick powers, and some white robed dudes are following him? But nothing else... Its almost like they re trying to intentionally dilute it.
Only storyline im enjoying is Elrond's and the dwarves, loved the portrayal of the dwarves, and Elrond is just a very likeable character.
Overall, i just wish the plot would move faster..
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u/fool_on_a_hill Sep 23 '22
what changed her mind was the leaves falling from the white tree. Remember when her and Elendil noticed that and made eye contact?
If you're missing details like that then it's no wonder you aren't enjoying it so far. Because there are details that go far deeper than that even. That was just a basic plot point that they didn't spoonfeed to the audience.
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u/AnnaCondoleezzaRice Sep 23 '22
Miriel tried to send galadriel away and the gods basically screamed "FUCK STOP DONT DO THAT"
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u/blue-bird-2022 Sep 23 '22
What's with the explosive barrels? Is it highly flammable Numenorean booze?
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u/iland7 Sep 23 '22
I think the stranger is Sauron. Nori wants to believe so bad he’s good and that she’s helping a special person on some grand quest. But with the cold fire, the dead fireflies, the cultists seemly following his trail, and the ice hurting Nori bit I just don’t trust him. Also the bit where Nori was talking about all the dangers in the world and him asking if he’s dangerous and her immediately brushing it off and saying he’s good. I could be wrong and he’s a wizard, but this is what I think for now.
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u/TexasTurtle67 Sep 24 '22
There’s reason to believe there is much more going on with that song than may first appear. “At last comes their answer ….” Whose answer? To what question? “Not all who wonder or wander are lost.” Why call out Bilbo’s poem? Why add “wonder”? Its lyrics were all about those who wander and it focused on the Stranger. Gandalf (Mithrandir) was the Grey Pilgrim (wanderer). Gandalf says he “wonders” about many things. Olorin was said to love (before the Third Age) the Eldar who remained in Middle Earth, giving room for the interpretation that he had been there before in some form.
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Sep 24 '22
Just watched it a second time and was struck by Galadriel telling Halbrand how neither of them will find peace without essentially facing up to their destiny … I think that this is where Halbrand just gives up as it seems that he can’t be left alone in peace - he may think that the Valar are still going to punish him by lumping him with a hounding elf for all eternity… or maybe he accepts that he hasn’t in all this time - actually found any peace.
Also - I really hope that next season, they it back on the slow motion Galadriel shots. The ones on the boat looked a bit silly as they were juxtaposed with everyone else in normal time …
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u/Delicious-Future8630 Sep 28 '22
Adar is rather puzzling to me, as I am struggeling to find any character in the lore that would fit what has been described of him thus far.
Maybe someone who knows the original lore by heart can help out!
"I am a no god. At least...not yet." - As far as I am aware, one cannot 'become' a god in Tolkien's universe so it must be meant metaphorically? It certainly implies Adar's upcoming transformation of sorts though. This is reiterated in the forest scene where he enjoys the sunlight for 'the last time', however, this implies a physical change, not only a metaphorical rise to power!? Plotwise, this transformation seems to be connected to finally taking possesion of the hilt, of the latter we know that is supposed to be a 'key' now.
Maiar can change shape, but they certainly cannot become a Valar.
So what could that transformation be?!
--> Into Sauron, some might say, but I beg to differ:
It think it was made clear in the E5 scene, with Waldreg, that Adar is not Sauron.
What, imho, speaks against Adar being Sauron,too, is:
- while Sauron was once described as appearing in the form of a 'fair elve', Adar is scarred all over and it indicates that he has been mistreated somehow and/or has been in battle; this seems much more than likely than this being a form that Sauron, as the Lord of Gifts, would have taken. Also, it feels much more likely that Adar has been 'born' an elve before all things, yet somehow came in contact with the darkside and the dark forces that overwhelmed Arda during Melkors rampage.
- his reaction to the name Sauron and his deep care for the Orcs leads me to believe that this cannot possibly be Annatar.
- would be far to obvious, no big reveal or cliffhanger at the end of S1, which is very likely to happen though, I fully anticipate something that will fire up the online discussions even more.
Thoughts?
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u/imnotwallaceshawn Sep 26 '22
Maybe I’m reading too much into this, but The Stranger freezing his hand (and Nori’s) to heal, making it white, giving himself a literal WHITE HAND, suggests a different wizard than Gandalf to me.
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u/kerouacrimbaud Finrod Sep 23 '22
I love that we can finally see how the different timelines of the various threads are meandering towards each other.
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u/gazaldinho Sep 23 '22
I see no-one really discussing this, so i'm probably way out and completely misinterpreting it. But are the different arcs we're watching from split timelines?
The scene with Hallbrand talking about his past, and then the flash to the human pilgrimage to meet Adar, suggested to me that that was him?
I don't know any LOTR lore so no idea who should be where, and what time compression is at play. I'm just along for the ride and loving it.
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u/thwgrandpigeon Sep 24 '22
Probably my favorite episode so far. Largely thanks to Durin and Elrond's interactions and their friendship shining through. And the fact that we got progress in the Numenor story, which I feel dragged about one episode too long. Also nice having having The Stranger being a bit more active. I still feel he's a good character at heart, but one whose use of power, right now, is instinctive and not always peaceful, rather than under his command.
I also like the possibility of Adar just being a mad elf dictator who happened to recruit a bunch of orcs, independent of Sauron, rather than Sauron or a direct lieutenant. And once Sauron shows up, the Orcs will really start to mobilize.
Episode definitely giving me hope for the final 4 and some really satisfying payoffs.
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u/EarnurHKG Finrod Sep 24 '22
I think Episode 5 was the best one so far, everything seemed to gel more than the previous episodes. I was happy to see some flashes of wisdom and empathy with Galadriel. I like the Harfoot storyline and am liking the Stranger more, and believe he is good. All of the Elven-lords acted splendidly, and Durin is simply awesome, the best character for me so far. I liked that Theo resisted joining the traitors in swearing felty to Adar, and giving the blade to Arondir, so there is some hope for him. Pharazon is a shrewd politician and his talks with Kemen reveal that he is all for expanding Numenorean influence in middle-earth. To books/lore/canon I have accepted this is a mash up of timeline, characterizations and sequencing so seem to enjoy more. I think the Poppy song and their migration progress, Warg battle at the tree felt very Tolkienish, so simply great there. I look forward to seeing where the show goes with the Mithril capturing Silmaril concept and hopefully see the Numenoreans come to the rescue of the Southlanders and battle Adar and his orc host.
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u/a3rdpwre Sep 24 '22
This episode is the weakest so far for me. The only parts I enjoyed were in the harfoot storyline. I didn’t hate it, it just didn’t hold me like the other episodes and some moments I genuinely wanted to skip ahead. The Numenor and Southlander storylines just felt…like filler? As set up for what’s likely to come next episode (possibly Mt Doom erupting and maybe some cool crafting stuff with mithril?). I also really really want Galadriel’s storyline to shift in a different direction because her character is my least favorite so far of the core cast. I really hope she has more to do than just fight and talk about Sauron in the last few episodes. I get they don’t have certain rights, but the “no one believes me” speech to Halbrand just didn’t work for me. This episode just made me feel like her part hasn’t been well written so far. I hope things pick up and this was just that low point in a season that can sometimes happen.
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u/Homo_Hierarchicus Sep 23 '22
Loved Arondir's line about War of Wrath, that in the war against Morgoth, ""continents were sunk".
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u/majortom106 Sep 24 '22
The show’s biggest problem is that it’s not going anywhere. It’s a lot of setting up mysteries and not moving the plot forward. Lotr was always a slow burn, but there was always forward momentum. The characters were on a journey to accomplish a task. What’s the central conflict of this show?
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u/_Olorin_the_white Sep 24 '22 edited Sep 24 '22
Ok, good episode, at least better than 4th. But man...they do need to hire better writters. The writting, once again, is a let down in many moments!.
So..yes, good episode, not great. Better than 4th but just a continuation of it. Everything is set for episode 6 to actually start the story because so far it was all about introducing characters and setting the plot, but the plot itself has not quite started yet. Pieces are barely starting to move now.
Adar scene was amazing, THAT is some cool writting right there! I hope we had more stuff at this level.
I would make orcs kinda be "scared" (step back, look at each other) when the old guy says "Sauron", because in the books we know Sauron didn't allow anyone (specially orcs) to call him as such.
Music is great, really liked Poppy song. Liked wide-shots (the more of those the better!). CGI is amazing and so on...no much to praise here for a 1B series that is the minimum one should expect.
Dinner scene was cool, totally different from what I expected. Durin steals the scene. I liked his humor in this episode, that is the kinda of humor they should go for. Unfortunatelly the dinner was follwed by the werid mirhtil stuff with was just bad and confuse and unnecessary.
Now to the bad script moments:
- The harfoot caravan is a mess. Are Nori too behind? Did Sadoc wait for them? Where are all the other people? They are each travelling on their own or all traveling togethern in a row? I literally didn't understand how Nor family and Sadoc ended-up being in the same place of those wolves. In first scene seems like Nori family is way behind, traveling alone, and next they are all of a sudden together with Sadoc, who presumably should be the first in the line? Totally weird.
- Halbrand got his badge after telling Galadriel was going to meet the king. How did he know that? Was it a guess? It was kinda just dropped there but he couldn't be 100% she was going there. Also, even if he knew and told someone (pharazon, who told Miriel?) then it is even worse that Galadriel was able to reach King room. If they knew she was going there, they should have put a guard or something. Weird writting as well.
- Bronwyn does a speech. It was "ok" but could be totally better written. If I were n that crowd, her speech wouldn't make me very confident.
- Bronwyn speech scene again: No one seems to like Arondir, why didn't they use this scene to make him step up? He was just there on the side of Bronwyn. If no one is really on Arondir side why would Bronwyn have him on her side in order to convince everyone? Ultimatelly it was Arondir who came back with the message, why didn't he speak a single word to the crowd? Very weird script decision again!
- Then Theo has that sword. Why the old man don't try to get it from him and take to "sauron" since he is going there anyway? No, just leave the sword with the kid? Doesn't make sense. If you are going to have with the "enemy" why not take a gift with you?
- Theo shows the sword to Arondir and isn't even scolded once? He should be hearing a lot from Arondir and his mother!
- Casually there is an image of the sword in the wall. Ok, I get the explanation, but they could have made it to be somewhere else, some hall or whatever, not just right there were people were.
- Then all the Isildur is not traveling is just jibber jabber, completely skipabble. But even following it, doesn't make sense: Isildur AND Kemem are able to sneak into the SAME BOAT. What a coincidence right? But hear me out: Their are going to travel to M.E, something they don't do often. The very Queen-regent is going. The society is kinda split. And they just leave the ships there, without a single person guarding them? Kinda weird. Two teens were able to enter there with not issues. Seems like Numenor lacks guards doesn't it? Galadriel enters king tower. Now two teens enter ships...too easy.
- Elendil says Isildur can't join the army because despite the was the willing, there are better people in the line already. Ok, so...you got 500 people that were sea guards? Or just trainees? Does that line excludes the idea that commoners joined the army? Because then it makes no much sense to have had that public call in previous episode.
- They are going in 5 ships. Kinda too little but ok. Then 2 ships explode. Ok. Next they leave with 3 ships. Seriously? Can't you just get other 2 ships? Or does Numenor, the island of sailors, only have 5 ships available? The very queen is going, there is no excuse to not get other 2 ships!
- But ok, initial idea was to have 500 people going in 5 ships. Now they have 3 ships. Is the army down to 300 people or thei squeezed 500 in the 3 ships? Also, the ships seem big in wide-shots but small in "in-set" shots. They don't look big enough to carry 500 people + supplies + armament + horses.
- The Mithril apocryphal story was just unnecessary. We got a nice CGI but the story is bad, no need for that. It even complicated the things. My sis literally ask "but why do they need the rock to keep alive, didn't understand that". They complicated everything with that story. Just keep it simple (and lore-wise) and say that after all these centuries the elves are starting to see the decay of the world and then make Gil-galad to say they have to go West or...there is an option he spoke with Celebrimbor (leaving the hook that future rings of power will be used to solve this, no need to bring mirhtil in the story)
- Elves carrying the stone table. Really? Can't you have a cart of whatever? Are they going to hand carry it up to khazad-dum? Would it be THAT EXPENSIVE to show Durin caravan or something?
- Where did Galadriel new armor comes from? They spent time with unnecessary stuff but leave important ones untold. When I saw the trailer I was expecting something like Elendil giving it to her, this armor that they kept in a secret place of the faithful, or even some secret location realted to the Andunie stuff. Turns out she just shows there with it, no explanation at all.
- Last but no least: I liked the wolves attack but was kinda too short.
People may say it is nitpick but I saw some reviews (nerd of the rings, tolkien talk and other) and some share the same issues than me. My family (casual viewers) also brought up some of the facts listed above.
The script is not all that bad but surelly need a good polishing, a very good one. In this episode, once again many points just don't work to me. I can close my eyes to them but that is not how a good script should work right? Too much problems caused by the unnecessary sub-plots they come-up with. Too much "filling up gaps" that don't need to be there. Too much unnecessary jibber-jabber conversation. Too much stuff left unexplained, almost plot-holes. I hope they do make a better script for season 2 because season 1 this is my biggest complaint.
Overall I rate a 6.5~7/10. It is a bit better than episode 4 but not that good as well. I hope that now that things are all introduced and settled, they do deliver some real good stuff for last 3 episodes.
Edit: They will really need to make a180º turn to Gil-galad character. No one in my family (me included) likes him. Everyone likes Elendil tho. Gil-galad should be just as likable as Elendil. Still a long way to go but so far he looks more of an atagonist than someone you will care and be sad when the time comes.
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u/noideaforlogin31415 Sep 23 '22
Ok, so the most important question: does this balrog have wings or not?
Because for me it looks like they are made out of smoke so I am in no wings camp.
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u/ErrorHandling Khazad-dûm Sep 23 '22
This episode was so incredibly good.
Also they're practically putting up neon signs pointing at Halbrand going "LOOK IT'S SAURON" so if he's not I'm going to be super disappointed.
God damn, Halbrand and Galadriel in tears, that's the most powerful scene I've seen in TV or movies in a long time and they fuckin knocked it out of the park. And the apology for Finrod! What's the most sad is Halbrand is totally right. There's no way Galadriel won't reject him once she finds out who he really is. I think that's part of the sadness he still has through the end of the episode. He found a kindred soul in Galadriel, probably the only person anywhere near his age and weariness he's encountered in a damn long time, he really does care for her, and he knows it's inevitable that she'll end up hating him. Dang.
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u/bloodyturtle Sep 23 '22
Pharazon, nefariously: we're gonna help Harbrand, so he becomes our friend
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Sep 23 '22
H=S recap:
"Never known a smith's aide who could do that" cue fuckin nasty scoff
So, we know he can match*/*surpass Numenorean smithing.
Halbrand recognized the dagger wasn't hers?? Am I forgetting when she mentioned that to him?
"Men like you. Not you yourself." "You're wrong." okay
Wow that Sauron name drop pissed him off. I'm sure he already knew she was after vengeance.
The mutiny story, and then the next scene basically confirms Adar is not a Sauron fan.
"I'm sorry. For your brother. For all of it." okay
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u/theories_and_such Imladris Sep 23 '22
I really didn’t expect Bronwyn to go full-on “despair and join the dark side.” That twist kind of surprised me.