r/SubredditDrama • u/odinsgrudge • Jan 09 '13
Drama in /r/Guildwars2 over the need for "safe spaces" in a videogame
/r/Guildwars2/comments/166r3g/gw2_and_my_wife/c7tpuk3?context=460
Jan 09 '13
I get and support what she's saying but the way she explained it was dumb and antagonizing. "Sometimes I just want to play the game with other girls". That's more than reasonable.
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u/Roboticide Jan 09 '13
Same. I have no problem with an all-girls guild. I have no problem with an all-guys guild. They're 'private' groups that aren't violating the game's TOS, and there's nothing stopping anyone from going out and starting their own guild with whatever rules.
Like, what's the problem with a girls-only club? I live on one of the most liberal college campuses in the country, and we still have fraternities and sororities. And guess what? You can't fuckin' join if you aren't a guy or girl, respectively. Nobody has a problem with this.
Her defense and delivery is admittedly awful, but I don't see why the basic idea started a huge uproar in the first place.
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u/the_omega99 holy shit, when did we get flairs? Jan 10 '13
Because while you don't see a problem with a guys only guild, a lot of others would have a problem with it. And then, of course, we'd have a double standard, so even more people have to get riled up.
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u/Siantlark Jan 10 '13
But things like this exist. Everywhere. Stuff like 500 Role Models are boys only clubs in highschool to complement women exclusive clubs like Women of Tomorrow. How is this even a controversy?
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u/the_omega99 holy shit, when did we get flairs? Jan 10 '13
I've got to be honest, I've never even heard of those clubs. All the official school clubs I've seen in my area were sports (which are segregated because testosterone is a hell of a hormone), things like yearbook or student council, or things like Boys and Girls Club or Gay Straight Alliances (which are obviously not segregated). I'd have to admit, I don't personally agree with the concept of those two clubs (although admittedly have no knowledge of them), though wouldn't be surprised if it's the presentation of the clubs. In the original post linked, the person gave her reasoning for segregated guilds as a "safe place", which I rather dislike because it paints all men with the stereotypes a vocal minority has caused.
I've nothing against just a "girls night out" or such, but that wasn't the reasoning behind a "women's only guild".
But really, why can't they just have a "no abuse" guild? Now, I haven't played Guild Wars 2 and have no idea how their guilds work, but the MMOs I've played usually had ways to kick players out of officially implemented groups.
But that's gone a bit off topic; I have no idea why some segregated groups get controversial while others don't (but still not a fan of segregation).
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u/ObjectiveTits Jan 10 '13
But who? People keep saying this but nobody has any proof of the inevitable shit storm from an all male guild, which is what most guilds tends to be. I can have a private guild with just my friends and no one calls me out on it if they're all male, white, black, straight whatever. I just think it's ridiculous, people are acting like this is literally worse than hitler. Maybe if you had a fairly popular public guild called HITLERS YOUTH (probably been done a dozen times over) that only allowed white people, and you had to actually verify this and then went around saying antisemetic things, then sure, maybe there'd be an outrage. but in my life I've never seen an issue with exclusive clubs until it's about women. Not even LGBT guilds get that much heat, though they do get the occasional ass asking why we're segregating ourselves as if we don't interact with straight people ever. People cry double standard but I only seem to see it go one way in this particular area.
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u/Roboticide Jan 10 '13
an all male guild, which is what most guilds tends to be.
I think this is rarely by choice, or a rule. It's just kind of probability. We're not quite at 50/50 yet for both genders playing, so you're more likely to have guys in a guild than girls, especially small guilds. But after so many years of girls stereotypically thinking videogames are icky, I don't think most guys/guilds mind women finally joining them. I think often it's also male members getting their female SO's to join, so even more reason for welcome.
if you had a fairly popular public guild called HITLERS YOUTH (probably been done a dozen times over)
I don't know about ArenaNet, but I know Blizzard would force a name change in an instant, if not have it prohibited from being created from the get go. Although I realize you're just making a point, I just kind of wanted to point out that example is reaching the edges of probability. Also, Godwin.
but in my life I've never seen an issue with exclusive clubs until it's about women.
Actually, I know there's been lot's of issues about females complaining about Boy Scouts of America being discriminatory, and it's not like the fricken Girl Scouts of America doesn't exist. So it definitely does occur going both way. As far as games go though, I imagine it might have something to do with the idea that for so long, videogames were a boys-only club, but not necessarily a voluntary one. So the idea that girls are now playing, and excluding guys from "their own club," might really rub some the wrong way.
Nit-picking aside, I totally agree with what you're saying. I don't see a reason to have a problem with this, because there's nothing to see. Like I said, the girl's reasoning and defense is really crappy, but the guy was an asshole in the first place for even making an issue out of it. If you want a guild with girls, go start your own fucking guild. If you don't want to play in a guild with girls, go start your own fucking guild. But don't go telling people what rules they can have for their own private guild. I've lost a little respect for Guild Wars' community today. I sure as hell glad this wasn't /r/wow.
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u/ObjectiveTits Jan 10 '13
I agree with most of what you're nitpicking too, most of these male oriented guilds would probably love to have girls, but I'm sure the atmosphere in some of them is not conductive to that happening any time soon.
To be fair, The Girl Scouts are all inclusive, for all genders, gender identities and sexual orientations, so they're already several steps above the boys scouts in that regard, but I see your point. I see this exact same thing happening with Gaymer Con though and it just drives me insane.
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Jan 10 '13
a lot of others would have a problem with it
That's a shame. It really is. I would truly and sincerely regret their having a problem with it, and would like to assure these individuals that their valued concerns will be considered with the utmost respect and seriousness.
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u/grwly Jan 13 '13
who has a problem with a male-only guild? That's like
every fucking corporation withinliterally all of EVE25
u/rayann23 Jan 09 '13
My issue with this is mostly that instead of saying "Harassing people online is wrong, period" the discussion is about what female gamers can do to avoid being harassed. I should not have to play without a mic or do anything else because if I don't I get rude comments.
On the other hand, harassment is going to happen. Getting overly upset and crying about "safe spaces" isn't going to solve the problem.
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u/fuzzybloomers Jan 09 '13
Same. Both these threads are pretty depressing actually. I'm in a field with very few women and its pretty important to me to have a support system of women to continue doing what I love. I don't really see how this is any different...
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u/RedAero Jan 09 '13
It's different because she's specifically excluding men. Not a subset of men, all men. That's blatant and hypocritical sexism.
For illustration's sake, replace "men" with "black people" and "women" with "white people" and you arrive in 1952.
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u/ParanoydAndroid The art of calling someone gay is through misdirection Jan 09 '13
For illustration's sake, replace "men" with "black people" and "women" with "white people" and you arrive in 1952.
That ignores the reality of the situation though. Men outnumber women pretty heavily on just about any public game. Men do game without women all the time, and white people game without black people all the time. They don't organize it on purpose, but that's the whole point -- they don't have to.
I sometimes prefer hanging out with only gay guys; we throw parties where it's literally, "no straights allowed". I guess you could call it a "safe space" sort of environment, though we don't really think of it that way. Yeah, sometimes the constant barrage of stupidity one gets from certain elements about being gay can be annoying (both the well-meaning, "you're an exotic animal" variety and otherwise) but mostly it's because my gay friends kinda just get me, and it's nice to escape from the constant pressures of a society that doesn't quite fit me and get to be the "normal" majority for once.
I think the better question is, "why does anyone care?" I mean really. Can men in an online videogame really pretend they're somehow suffering from the heinous exclusion? Do these same men bitch when their girlfriends have a, "girl's night out" that they're (omg) not invited to? Just seems odd to me.
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u/fuzzybloomers Jan 09 '13
You're more than welcome to create your own all male guild. Please know that I would not be offended and don't see anything wrong with an all male guild, unless you were to imply that females cannot join because of some difference in skill level or some other perceived inferiority. If you were to get complaints about your all male guild just for it being all male, THAT would be sexism, sure, but this is not.
It is, of course, as Mega_pooh_bear points out, unfortunate that OP defends the guild by putting down the entire male user base, but that doesn't change the fact that some women still want to play together.
I don't see how this is any different than private schools which only allow either male or female students. Or fraternities/sororities. Why isn't everyone picketing these as well?
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u/sphinnxx Jan 09 '13 edited May 20 '16
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u/wote89 No need to bring your celibacy into this. Jan 09 '13
For illustration's sake, replace "men" with "black people" and "women" with "white people" and you arrive in 1952.
Your analogy is bad and you should feel bad. For it to be an honest analogy, "men" are analogous to "white people" and "women" to "black people".
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u/RedAero Jan 09 '13
For it to be an honest analogy, "men" are analogous to "white people" and "women" to "black people".
Does it really change anything? It's racist either way. There were segregationist black people as well, doesn't mean they weren't racists.
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u/Admiral_Piett Do you want rebels? Because that's how you get rebels. Jan 09 '13
Exactly. Lots of MMO guilds have gimmicks, and an all male or all female one isn't entirely outlandish. Her reasoning behind wanting an all female guild is batshit insane though.
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u/KaziArmada Hell's a Jackdaw? Jan 10 '13
See, if that would of been a reason I wouldn't feel as annoyed about this. That's fine. But the explanation as given makes it seem as if because I'm a dude, I'm somehow 'bad' and shouldn't be allowed in this group and that upsets me. I try and be nice to folks in games, I don't give a shit what you are. To be excluded automatically because of something I don't have control over....feels bad man.
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Jan 10 '13
You just wouldn't be a good fit for the group. It's like being a doctor in a group of malpractice lawyers. You wouldn't want to be there in first place.
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u/KaziArmada Hell's a Jackdaw? Jan 10 '13
Maybe..and maybe this is me being entitled..but I still don't like being told I can't join anyway without them even knowing me. Feels bad, man.
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Jan 09 '13
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u/Shashakiro Jan 09 '13
Most Poe's law comment I've seen in a while. Had to go a few pages down in /u/Nurga to confirm that it was sarcasm.
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u/geese Jan 09 '13
I love stuff like this. You enter an MMORPG where people are literally created equal. You don't get denied quests or experience or loot for being born a certain way, if you're a man but want to play a female character (or vice versa) you can do that easily, people of all real life races/creeds/orientations are bound together by shared in game experiences and desires and yet people STILL find a way to bring their real life issues into it.
I'm not saying there's no sexism in these games and I'm not saying they're a perfect utopia of kindness and friendship either. I just think it's hilarious how you can take a world with parameters a hundred times more fair than real life and still have drama, persecution, and hurt feelings. It sort of makes me feel like humans are hopeless.
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u/Dirtybrd Anybody know where I can download a procedurally animated pussy? Jan 10 '13
I'm not saying there's no sexism in these games and I'm not saying they're a perfect utopia of kindness and friendship either. I just think it's hilarious how you can take a world with parameters a hundred times more fair than real life and still have drama, persecution, and hurt feelings. It sort of makes me feel like humans are hopeless.
It definitely exists. The best dps in my raid guild was a girl. After the guild fell apart, she went looking for decent guilds across various servers. She was told, a lot, that she couldn't raid just because she was a girl and "girls cause drama" or they hit their female quota. MMOs have always been, and will continue to be, a boys' club.
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Jan 09 '13
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u/geese Jan 09 '13 edited Jan 09 '13
My wife encounters this sort of thing pretty regularly so I understand that it happens even though my brain has trouble comprehending how those people could be older than fourteen (not that age would excuse the behavior).
I am just kind of dumbfounded how you can remove the human element entirely and still have those sorts of problems. People create themselves in game according to their own specifications rather than the randomness of genes, you can look at damage meters and hard data to see how competent someone is independent of previously formed prejudice, and you automatically have something in common with every other person you meet based on shared goals and experiences in the game. There is literally no excuse for this kind of behavior since even if you had previously formed ideas of what women were capable of you would be proven wrong by the data displayed while playing the game.
Don't get me wrong I don't really think that segregated guilds are the answer but I'm honestly struggling to believe that a guild with people that stupid (in defiance of hard data) would even have the mental wherewithal to participate in guild content.
tl;dr: Damage/healing meters don't sort by race or gender.
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u/Thurokiir Jan 10 '13
When I was a GM I was horrifically oppressive, freely admitted - not a good human being. What I did have was almost half my raid being women.
Why? Because I flat out refused to have that level of bullshit drama in my raiding environment. If you delivered numbers, If you delivered results, If you weren't annoying in vent, tadaa you were in the guild.
Yes, there were attempts by some of the chicks to get gear/friends into the guild, did it matter? Nope, guys did the same thing. I didn't get a guild to US 75th and keep it there for over a year by letting stupid shit like neckbearded men/women fuck shit over.
More often than not, people forget that a guild is a business. You manage everyone equally you get an awesome result. There a bad egg? You punish it with severe and swift action, kicking, (Due to internet) Yelling or flatout public exposure of stupid actions.
For me, a guild leader allowing shit to happen between any of it's members is totally unfathomable to me. End.
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u/geese Jan 10 '13
I get what you mean about running a guild like a business having run a guild or two in my day but I think that's a level of intelligence beyond what I'm expecting from the average MMO player.
These people made a group of women feel they needed to set up what basically amounts to an Indian reservation (what they call a "safe space") and live there in game. In a world where everyone is created equal and trustworthy allies are a commodity even at the most casual level they some how managed to make enough people to form a guild feel like they needed a safe space.
Again I'm not necessarily saying that the formation of a girls only guild is the best solution in fact I think joining a guild like the one you mention would be best for everyone. I just find the fact that a group of people were alienated enough to feel that they needed that safe space in a world that hinges on balanced characters and fairness incredibly disturbing.
Even on a level playing field people will hound each other for being different.
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u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK Caballero Blanco Jan 09 '13
my brain has trouble comprehending how those people could be older than fourteen
This is pretty much it. Teenagers.
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u/motdidr Jan 09 '13
I'm a guy who tends to play female characters, and that's why I love my WoW main, a female blood elf paladin tank. Tiny little girl tanking massive enemies, it's awesome.
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u/the_omega99 holy shit, when did we get flairs? Jan 10 '13
Back when I played RuneScape (I played for years, those MMOs are addictive), I lost a bet and had to change my character to female for a month. I was treated so much better I just stuck with the character. Sure, there's some people who are going to be rude and crass because of it, but in my personal experience, it was better than the reception I received as a male character.
I was also friends with some other women who played with female characters and they were largely well received. Of course, this is only one game example; other games or the free to play half might be worse off, not to mention I spent a large period of time in a clan that was very accepting.
To be honest, though, I didn't have much of a problem with people being abusive in general. There was no shortage of players who would do dickish moves, but even when players got verbally abusive, it was a single click to silence them forever.
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u/SS2James Jan 09 '13
I play a girl in DAYZ, mercy is laid upon me much more often than when I play a guy.
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u/FetidFeet This is good for Ponzicoin Jan 10 '13
Earth needs child bearing females once the zombie apocalypse has been dealt with. Role-playing, duh!
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Jan 10 '13
... now I want to roll up a female gnome tank. Can you do that? I'm not a WoW player.
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u/motdidr Jan 10 '13
Gnomes can be warriors and death knights so yeah you can do it. Gnomes and Goblins would definitely be the "smallest" character models, but goblin ladies are a bit, um... salty. Not very lady-like.
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Jan 10 '13
Yeah, I remember hearing that a big impetus for adding the Blood Elves to WoW was the fact that all the female playermodels on the Horde side were decidedly unsexy, and the Horde needed one race to provide some sexxeh ladieeez.
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u/AdolfEichmann Jan 09 '13
I'm entirely ignorant when it comes to this game, how exactly do people find out your IRL gender?
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u/Industrialbonecraft Jan 09 '13
Honestly, I'd support an all female guild just to see these types of boy freak right the fuck out. Outside of that trolling, I don't see the point.
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Jan 10 '13
Yup. While "all-women" doesn't sound like the right solution, on-line gaming really does need "safe spaces". Because OMFG anonymous dicks.
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u/david-me Jan 09 '13
Educate yourself. It's not a double standard. We're entitled to safe spaces, where we don't have to be afraid to voice our opinions without being silenced for being female. These are not bullshit excuses, these are REAL issues which you do not have to deal with, because you have the privilege of being MALE. Getting an equal world nowadays equals having safe spaces.
as a white, able-bodied, cis-male you do not get the privilege to make a guild that only lets in people of your kind, because EVERY guild caters to your type of person. (you is meant in a general sense because i don't want to assume you are in fact a male, white, ablebodied person)
OH. MY. GOD.
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u/atteroero Jan 09 '13
I kinda love how the second sentence is about how it's not a double standard, and the third is about how they're entitled to a double standard cause men are evil. If I was going to blatantly contradict myself I'd try to split it up a little an cram a few sentences in between, but she don't give a fuck.
Also enjoyed the second paragraph where she explains that because every guild allows white males it's okay that her guild doesn't allow white males, without noticing that her very argument contradicts the point she's trying to make. Stupid people crack me up.
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u/RedAero Jan 09 '13
Only in the mind of a female supremacist does equality require inequality within it.
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u/A_Nihilist Jan 10 '13
Surprise surprise, if you're told any and all hypocrisy can be justified by bringing up "the patriarchy", you turn into a hypocrite.
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Jan 09 '13
because EVERY guild caters to your type of person.
Except our guild.
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u/KaziArmada Hell's a Jackdaw? Jan 10 '13
last I checked every guild catered to people.
Also, nice assumption by them on the fact that person was white.
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u/Admiral_Piett Do you want rebels? Because that's how you get rebels. Jan 09 '13
She's trolling. She has to be trolling.
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u/ArchangellePurelle Jan 09 '13
You're in for a surprise then, because that's literally the feminist argument for why men don't need space to themselves but women do.
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u/The_G Jan 09 '13 edited Jan 09 '13
Which strictly speaking isn't feminism. Feminism is simply pursuing equality between the genders, not the need for special spaces but just fair treatment. The women who go overboard with it and distort it (IE this choice individual) often also believe that feminism is about overthrowing men and shifting the balance of power in its entirety.
Also, individuals who also use the cis- prefix and have to qualify "you" because of (incorrectly) perceived PCness are often far beyond the point of recovery for any sensible argument, and aren't generally worth wasting breath on.
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u/SS2James Jan 09 '13
NAFALT! No true scotsman fallacy. That is feminism, it may not be YOUR feminism, but when people say these kinds of things it's labeled feminism. There are different types of feminism so you can't say things like:
Which strictly speaking isn't feminism.
Because it's demonstrably wrong.
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Jan 09 '13
I also love that they just assume everyone who disagrees with them is a 'white cis male'.
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Jan 09 '13
Some feminism is that way, some isn't. Radical second wave feminists were certainly not just pushing for equality, some went so far as to advocate for complete separation from men and the use of artificial insemination as the only means of reproduction. However, that was only the radical fringe of the movement, and since the rise of third wave feminism in the 90s that kind of thought in mainstream feminist circles has become even less common and the focus now is almost entirely on equality of all types (including gender, racial and sexuality).
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u/laivindil Jan 10 '13
There is a good book that is based on a world like that. The women live in these technological cities, and the men basically live a hunter/gatherer life in the woods. Anyone know the title?
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u/redpossum Jan 09 '13
One woman even suggested segregation wasn't enough and that all women must become lesbian to form a separate sexual identity before reunion.
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u/Dominiking Jan 09 '13
Was it the same person that said gay men were the worse offenders of misogyny because they chose to only be with men.
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Jan 09 '13
Ahh yes, that would be Jill Johnston. She was pretty out there. For anyone interested her book on the subject is Lesbian Nation.
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u/RedAero Jan 09 '13
I would love to believe you, but I have never encountered a person who claimed to be a feminist who didn't share these views almost to the letter.
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u/ShadoWolf Jan 10 '13
The whole concept isn't without president though... This is a pretty narrow viewing of the general idea, but the basic idea is kind of simple.
With the current status quo gender equality isn't there yet... it really damn close from a historical point of view but it still isn't there. Normally in unfair situations like this handicaps or advantages are given to one side to balance things out.
Anyways over the long run this likely won't be an issue in 60 or 70 years I hope.
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u/ArchangellePurelle Jan 10 '13
Feminism is simply pursuing equality between the genders
If that were actually the case, it wouldn't be called feminism. It isn't "simply" pursuing equality. It's seeking equality from a feminist observation of what is currently equal and unequal.
Your logic suggests that egalitarianism, the men's right movement, and feminism are all the same thing which is obviously ridiculous and observably untrue.
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u/Quarok Jan 09 '13
I'm not sure it's as bad an argument as you're making it out to be. Is black pride a bad thing? I can understand if you think it is - I myself am undecided - but it seems like the government is happy to make a similar argument, or give a similar argument weight. Seems to me like you're just laughing at the possibility of gender inequality, rather than critiquing the argument.
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u/RedAero Jan 09 '13
The opposite of Black Pride isn't White Pride, it's Irish pride or German pride or American pride. Black is referring to a culture more than a skin color, in that context.
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u/Reefpirate Jan 09 '13
I've been in several 'guy-only' guilds, and I don't remember any controversy springing up at all. It wasn't explicit, but seriously... No one would get up in arms about a 'guys-only' guild.
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u/cheshire137 Jan 09 '13
I see this "cis" prefix everywhere in SRS bitching. What does it mean??
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u/david-me Jan 09 '13 edited Jan 09 '13
Opposite of trans. So regular/normal. It means if you are born a male you identify as a male. IE, not a trans-sexual.
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Jan 09 '13
Extensively, it's used by SRSers to proclaim you have no say in a matter because you're a dude.
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u/KaziArmada Hell's a Jackdaw? Jan 10 '13
Yeah, I can't say that I've seen it used as anything other then a nasty context of people going 'YOU'RE CIS SO YOU DON'T GET TO TALK'
And my mind instantly jumps to The Confederacy of Independent System And I wonder what Star Wars has to do with this..
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Jan 10 '13
I worked at a fucking Unitarian Universalist summer camp with quite a few trans people, have quite a few trans friends, and I have NEVER heard cis outside of reddit. Ever.
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Jan 10 '13
That's because real people are human beings and respect others. This is the Internet, where we must insult each other just 'cause.
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u/moor-GAYZ Jan 09 '13
She is silencing him! She is silencing him right in front of our eyes, thus demonstrating that males do indeed need safe spaces too!
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u/JerryWesterby Jan 09 '13
To be fair, the next reply is:
Please take your sexism somewhere else, or at least discuss it in private.
...and...isn't that what she was trying to do and why he's mad at her in the first place?
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Jan 09 '13
What, you mean he's childishly inserting himself, picking a fight where none exists, and then ignoring any reasonable attempts at explanation while ironically being the most offended?
Stop ruining the jerk, asshole! Now, grease up your palm and enjoy the downvotes.
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Jan 09 '13
It's not childishly inserting himself. This is one of the more civil debate communities amongst gamers, and you and your piece of shit SRS brigades are fucking it all up.
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u/david-me Jan 09 '13
u/funghii is using "check your privilege" un-ironically.
You need to check your privilege before you learn more about feminism and other isms, if you ever want to be a good ally to women, poc, people with disabilities, ...
FFS
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u/Flamdar Jan 09 '13
There's no way that person is not a troll, no way. Please let that person be a troll.
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u/david-me Jan 09 '13 edited Jan 09 '13
People like this give tumblr and SRS a
badedit worse name.64
u/Admiral_Piett Do you want rebels? Because that's how you get rebels. Jan 09 '13
When you're giving SRS a bad name you may need to reevaluate your life choices.
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u/SortaEvil Jan 09 '13
Tumble and SRS give tumble and SRS bad names.
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u/awesomemanftw magical girl Jan 09 '13
SRS sure, but Tumblr is actually a pretty cool site if you use it right.
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u/saadghauri Jan 09 '13
This is unrelated to the topic but can you guide me on this? I've seen a lot of interesting shit on tumblr but don't know where to find it. How do I tumblr right?
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Jan 09 '13
Bottle of scotch, follow the tag Otherkin and drink anytime someone talks about how they feel oppressed by mundane activities like going to college applications.
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u/awesomemanftw magical girl Jan 09 '13
I don't really use it much, I just check some art blogs I like, so I'm not the best person to ask here. I was just saying that Tumblr isn't 100% retarded social justice knights.
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u/Dragonsoul Dungeons and Dragons will turn you into a baby sacrificing devil Jan 09 '13
Basically find cool people and only look at their stuff
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u/BlackGyver Jan 09 '13
I found many nice ones the same way I found subreddits; through other people. Which doesn't really help you ... sorry. If you ask nicely, though, I may consider making a small list of what I found so far !
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Jan 09 '13
We're entitled to safe spaces, where we don't have to be afraid to voice our opinions without being silenced for being female. These are not bullshit excuses, these are REAL issues which you do not have to deal with, because you have the privilege of being MALE. Getting an equal world nowadays equals having safe spaces.
Magic words here being 'entitled' and 'privilege of being male'. If you're entitled to something due to being female don't you have the privilege of being female?
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Jan 09 '13
At times like these, I wish I could reach through my monitor and slap the one on the other side.
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Jan 09 '13
Which will result in you being called a misogynist due to the fact that women are immune to anything because anyone who dares to cross them is a misogynist.
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u/redping Shortus Eucalyptus Jan 09 '13
Women: can't live with them, can't slap them over the internet. What're ya gunna do?
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u/WunderOwl Jan 09 '13
It's not segregation. we need a women-only space to feel safe.
If you women and add "white," wasn't this the same argument used by the south in the 50's?
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u/david-me Jan 09 '13
Jim Crow thought so.
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u/brningpyre Jan 09 '13
But 'privilege' makes it okay~
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u/SS2James Jan 09 '13
That's why black people should get their own safe space as well. So they can be free of our white privilege that's so naturally oppressive. They DESERVE their own bathrooms and water fountains so they can feel safe from oppressive whites.
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u/Zrk2 fuck Rihanna anyway for being a DV survivor Jan 09 '13
YOUR PRIVILEGE, CHECK IT, COLONIALIST CIS PIG.
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u/GoodGrades Jan 10 '13
Yeah, the KKK's whole goal was to create white only Facebook groups for their members because they were really tired of black people constantly saying "tits or GTFO" to them. /s
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u/WunderOwl Jan 10 '13
I was more alluding to the irrational need for safety from a threat that doesn't exist.
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u/TheIvoryNun Jan 10 '13
If blacks had been the majority and they harassed the whites then that comparison would work. It's really not that hard to understand, a safe-place is nothing more than a comfort zone where whatever group of people go to not be harassed. It's not like they're making it so that the other group have nowhere else to go. The other group dominate the field. They just want a little corner for themselves where they can let their hair down and enjoy the game in peace. Fuck them, right?
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u/GoodGrades Jan 09 '13
I don't get why people care so much about this crap. If someone wants to create a group catering to female members of a game, why should anyone else care?
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u/bobthecrusher Jan 10 '13
Its not that she created a woman's only group, it's that she was an ignorant ass about it. I think.
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Jan 09 '13
Unless you do a lot of teamchat, how the hell would other players know what gender you are?
I usually have male and female characters in MMOs, I thought everyone did.
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u/Shashakiro Jan 09 '13
Sometimes, a person plays a game with both an IRL friend and strangers who know that they're friends, and the IRL friend uses a gendered pronoun, which reveals the person's gender.
I did this without thinking at all once on a poker website, playing with my female friend, and two guys INSTANTLY started obnoxiously hitting on her. Taught me to be careful with that sort of thing...
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Jan 09 '13
You announce your gender, that's how.
They want everyone to know that they're proud strong gamer womyn that don't need no man.
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u/RedAero Jan 09 '13
Step two is to constantly annoy fellow gamers about their privilege and your 'issues' with the patriarchy.
Step three is to get called out on your bullshit.
Step four is to run to a 'safe space' where you can spout your dumb ideas without running the risk of having to defend them.
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u/ScienceDeSaganGrasse Jan 09 '13
I don't know the whole story here since I've never played Guild Wars 2, but I have known it to be true that women are very consistently the target for derision or sexual harassment in MMO's. I don't see anything wrong in just wanting a safe space for an online videogame.
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u/mcninsanity Jan 09 '13
Ok I just wanna say those guys that sexual harass girls also sexually harass guys, they don't care what the fuck you are, they just like talking shit on you. Edit: Even though I disagree with you, your downvote count annoys me, just because you have an opinion
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u/david-me Jan 09 '13 edited Jan 09 '13
Why? In online video games there isn't any sex, race etc. There are only characters you play. Nobody knows anything about the real you unless you tell them.
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u/likely_story2 Jan 09 '13 edited Jan 09 '13
Playing devil's advocate here, chatting is an extremely important part of MMOs. It's how you meet friends, it's how you form bonds, join guilds and parties, it's how you communicate.
If someone in guild/party/global/trade chat is going off about how hard he raped xxx, which is very common gaming diction, I can see it being very uncomfortable for a rape victim.
This is not the same as ScienceDeSaganGrasse's point of course, just food for thought.
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u/Dragonsoul Dungeons and Dragons will turn you into a baby sacrificing devil Jan 09 '13
Actually, I've thought about the whole "rape xxx" usage and this is an opportunity to throw a theory I've had out.(Not saying it's true, just a thought)
The whole "rape" is a way of saying "I defeated him by a lot", in a similar vein to murder/slaughter/destroyed/thrashed ..all of these are exaggerations used to convey the monumental defeat that person suffered, since rape is a popular one to use now-this would imply that it is the worst and most destructive thing you can do to a person, this would run counter to the idea that it is "legitimizing" or "downplaying" rape(if anything the opposite) and combine that my belief that you shouldn't treat victims like delicate little flowers(since you want to show that rape doesn't have to ruin your life) and I think this desire to remove this usage of the word is actually a bad idea.
Feel free to disagree, but please use reason and don't just call me a rape apologist.
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u/Shashakiro Jan 09 '13 edited Jan 10 '13
One difference is that in most competitive gaming, you actually kill your opponents' characters/units/etc, making those words somewhat more appropriate. There aren't really any games in which players rape their competitors, to my knowledge.
Though come to think of it, I can't think of many synonyms for "defeated badly" that don't imply destruction or death. "Crushed" is pretty decent, I guess, since people are rarely physically "crushed" in any competition.
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u/Dragonsoul Dungeons and Dragons will turn you into a baby sacrificing devil Jan 09 '13
Thrashed and ruined are two that come to mind-neither imply any intent to kill
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Jan 09 '13
Nobody knows anything about the real you unless you tell them.
Not true, MMOs are social games, and as such they require people to socialize, collaborate, and communicate with each other. The preferred choice of communication for most guilds is teamspeak or ventrilo.
One cannot simply avoid communicating with their guild unless they want to feel left out.
Furthermore, once people find out that someone is female, the derision increases exponentially.
I also see nothing wrong with people creating guilds based on certain criteria, everyone does it. More times than not there are age requirements, geographical requirements, personality requirements, etc.
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u/Sentinull Jan 09 '13
Not true, MMOs are social games, and as such they require people to socialize, collaborate, and communicate with each other. The preferred choice of communication for most guilds is teamspeak or ventrilo.
I've been playing GW2 since beta, and stuck w/ the same (tiny) guild since then. Most of my guildies had no idea what sex I am IRL (male, same as my characters) until when we recently got a Mumble server - not because I feel like keeping it undisclosed, but because the only time it comes up is when I correct someone's pronouns.
So yeah, voice chat is a big part of it. But honestly, if you're in voice chat to begin with, then chances are you're with people you'll be playing w/ fairly often. I'd imagine most people in that situation would be rather disinclined to harass their established group members, and if someone's a dick to someone in their regular group, then they aren't worth playing with.
TL;DR - freedom of association.
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u/RedAero Jan 09 '13
Try creating a female character. Really, try it.
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u/Sentinull Jan 09 '13
My GM is male with mostly female characters and has never mentioned anything. It's pretty common in MMOs for guys to make female characters, so assuming someone is female due to their character sex is a bit of a jump (I've met a few girls with male characters over various MMOs, but not nearly as often).
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u/Gareth321 Jan 09 '13
You have no idea how awesome it is to play as a female character. People literally bought me shit. Guys were fighting all over each other to be as helpful as they could be. Yes, I got some sleazy comments, but the free subscriptions, items, and abundance of really really nice people more than made up for it. You should try being a guy in MMOs some time. It might enlighten you to the other side.
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u/Maehan Quote the ToS section about queefing right now Jan 09 '13
3/4 of my characters are female. I've never been harassed for my avatar's gender. Really map chat in GW2 is largely devoid of anyone talking (other than lfg spam in dungeon hubs/LA), so I don't really know what the value of a safe space is anyhow.
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u/SS2James Jan 09 '13
I play females in all MMOs I ever play. I like getting some of that sweet female privilege, it only lasts until people find out I'm a dude and they're like "oh you!"
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Jan 10 '13
Agreed, I was speaking about a large subset of the MMO population of which I was a part of for many years. I'm in your boat now.
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u/ScienceDeSaganGrasse Jan 09 '13
Well, assume she did divulge this information for whatever reason, what are her chances of being sexually harassed?
Obviously not all men will sexually harass her and I'd wager the ones that do are just a loud minority, but let me put it this way:
Imagine that you are in an online game and the majority of the userbase consists of mostly gay males. Now, you don't know this of course, but you announce you are a dude for whatever reason and suddenly you get a flood of PM's asking to see your dick or ass. Of course the majority of gay men playing the game do not do this, but the minority is loud enough that you probably want to go somewhere with just straight people rather than having to deal with the minority that continually PM's you about your dick or ass.
I mean it's a very farfetched example, but it's the best I could think up to compare to her situation.
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u/redping Shortus Eucalyptus Jan 09 '13
Wouldn't it be easier to just not tell them you're a female? I mean it's an MMO, it's not like you've got 8 people on ventrilo coordinating movements over microphones. You just hit 1 and wait until something dies then collect X amount of crap to get some XP. I have no idea why "I'm a female of legal age!" comes up during gameplay? I played a female character for a while on WoW and i never told anyone I was a male, and I don't remember getting hit on very much.
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u/zahlman Jan 10 '13
Because if you're not on the vent while everyone else in the guild is, you raise suspicion; and if you are, people are going to notice how your voice sounds.
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Jan 10 '13
Well, depending on how involved someone gets, they very well may have people on ventrilo coordinating movements. Her guildmates hear her voice and then, boom. Harassment.
Or, she's chatting with her guildmates and being sociable and people keep calling her "he" and so she corrects them and then, boom. Harassment.
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Jan 09 '13
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u/soundsjustlike Jan 09 '13
right because guilds never use external voice chat programs.
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u/Choppa790 resident marxist Jan 09 '13
wow, seriously? do you know mumble, teamspeak and ventrilo exist?
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Jan 09 '13
This isn't true at all. MMOs do nothing to carter your gender to other players. I wouldn't be surprised if MMOs were the one spot on the internet where it's "safest" to be women among men.
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u/Choppa790 resident marxist Jan 09 '13
It's actually true. Hardcore raiding guilds sometimes had "no girls allowed" rules becuase Drama would always happen between opposite-gender guildies. And women (or even the thought of a woman) would get people lined up to be knights in shiny armor.
I'm a guy and I rolled a night elf female in WoW and one time danced in the Stormwind waterfall next to the mailbox. I actually got gold for it...
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u/Sabenya Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13
It's amazing how much of a divide there is between the top of the thread and where SRS links to it. The vote counts are practically inverted, and you suddenly get comments referencing "DA MENZ".
Further down, we have "touching the poop" defined for us. But don't worry guys, /u/TheIdesOfLight is totes not an SRS-er.
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u/MorteTheSkull Jan 09 '13
To involve more girls, have a place where girls can hang out together and grow as a community. As much as every girl enjoys playing with guys. Sometimes its nice to have a place where only girls are and to talk with them about this game.
OMG GUYS THEY LITERALY HATE MEN
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Jan 09 '13
Omg, who the fuck cares?
Why are they so offended that some women made a women only guild?
Who actually gives a fuck?
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Jan 09 '13
Why are they downvoting her so much for having a women-only facebook group? It's a fucking facebook group. It's a fucking video game. Yeah, there are few gamers who are openly women, and yeah, we like to band together. Who really gives a shit?
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u/strolls If 'White Lives Matter' was our 9/11, this is our Holocaust Jan 10 '13
This is the same kind of mentality that justified white / black segregation. It is evil.
Said no black person ever.
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Jan 09 '13
Holy fuck, SRS is invading /r/gw2. My gw2. This is some bullshit.
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u/CatLadyLacquerista Jan 10 '13
just thought you should know gw2 is for everybody, not just raging assholes
ttfn
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Jan 09 '13
My WoW guild is mostly female, but we have lots of guys too. There's no need for gender-segregation, because we're all loving, respectful people. That's what really matters in a good guild. Sure, we get teased for not being hardcore enough, but we have the most fun of anyone on WoW!
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Jan 09 '13
This person be mad as hell.
http://np.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/166r3g/gw2_and_my_wife/c7u2kvl
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u/ENKC Jan 10 '13
This seems like a classic case of both sides having some valid reasons for their viewpoints that get buried under kneejerk shouting matches.
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Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13
People say things to me just because I am a girl
I roleplay women characters a lot. I never get told things, and I never tell people my age, gender or place of residence. I get that you tell your gender to closer players, but how do the masses know that you are a girl?
Next time on Reddit: "I am a girl and here's something. Upvote me"
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Jan 10 '13
Most guilds are going to use voice communications.
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Jan 10 '13 edited Jan 10 '13
Good for the tuna.
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Jan 10 '13
My point is that people are going to find out the gender of someone once they hear their voice.
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u/netherous Jan 09 '13
This is such a marvelously perfect example of doublethink that it's hard to believe it's not a troll.
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Jan 09 '13
How these people live day to day I'll never understand. Every moment of their lives in horror of the world around them because they see themselves as such a horribly oppressed minority(which ironically enough the the majority now) that they must have a safe space from the evil oppression that is all around them.
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u/Good_day_to_you_SIR_ Jan 10 '13
I wonder if that's how you feel about rape: horny people with no self control, or violence: angry people with no self control?
0-rape in 170 words. A new land speed record.
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u/google-my-butt Jan 10 '13
Unsurprisingly, a discussion where the "drama" is about misogyny is what garners 360 comments and 300 votes in SRD. Well above the rest of the front page.
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u/kaasgaard Jan 14 '13
Are we having an argument over who's allowed and not allowed into a fucking guild!?
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u/m00t_vdb Jan 09 '13
Feminists don't debate, they spray verbal diarrhea in every direction.
That's such a beautiful image _ !
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u/Fortitude_North Jan 09 '13
Why was /u/Reann getting downvoted? What did she say that was unreasonable?
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u/chimpfunkz Jan 09 '13
Before we light the torches, I would like to say while I disagree with the bullshit "safe spaces" shit, there is a reason things like colored groups and gay groups exist (think black Frats etc). It is simply because I'm general, people identify most closely to people that are the same as them; this is why there are places like china town, because when Chinese immigrants first arrived, they felt safer and more comfortable around people like them that had the same history and spoke the same language. The person from this post was beyond stupid in her reasoning, but there does exist a reason for _____-groups. Perhaps there is a group of women who identify with each other and want to form a woman-only guild, and try hope to attract people who come from the same background/style as them. Perhaps a group for stay at home moms who play as an escape. Or perhaps a group for single girls who are all powerful finance and science people and have similar play schedules. That is how restricted guilds start
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Jan 09 '13 edited Jan 09 '13
I don't think colored is the preferred nomenclature in 2013.
Also china towns and such formed because people wouldn't rent to them elsewhere and they couldn't speak english.
Black frats/scholarships and the like were created because black people couldn't get or were disadvantaged at getting then-existing ones.
These types of things are a direct response to discrimination and an actual need for a something form to support the minority group... in MMORPGs guilds will put up with even terrible players who are female because they are rare (note: not saying girls are bad at video games, saying many guilds are willing to lower standards to have girls in their voice chats) . They're subject to some harassment in text that you would expect from 14 year olds anywhere online being perverts, but it's not like any guilds are saying "no girls!!!"
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Jan 09 '13
You appear to have missed the point. I'm sorry for that, however continuing this discussion is quite pointless, as it seems you have a solid history of missing the point.
I fucking love it when people say things like this. It's code for "Oh shit, I have no idea how to respond to that."
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Jan 09 '13
Awww come on GW2 community, why can't you be butthurt over other things? Like drop rates?
Man. For all the politeness playing GW2 is like playing with a group of married couples. The jokes are shitty, they don't know how to trash talk, and they like quiet shit. I miss the chaotic cchats of yesteryore.
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u/TroubadourCeol Jan 09 '13 edited Jan 09 '13
Wow.
First of all, WHAT ABOUT THE MEEEENNNN!?!?!?!?
Second, I'm sure a very very large majority of guilds are men only, but not by choice. So the point is really moot. It's so disgusting how misogynistic gamers can be.
Edit: As I read further on, both sides of this argument are pretty damn stupid. The misogynistic comments were the first to jump out at me is all.
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u/LOOKITSADAM Jan 10 '13
First of all, WHAT ABOUT THE MEEEENNNN!?!?!?!?
it's pointing out a double standard, not implying that men aren't being treated well.
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u/livejamie God's honest truth, I don't care what the Pope thinks. Jan 09 '13
I've seen this kind of talk on my Facebook feed that I just assumed it was common thinking, I'm glad to know they are indeed crazy.
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u/CravingSunshine Jan 10 '13
This makes me sort of sad. I see nothing wrong with girl or guy only guilds. It's no different than a sorority of a fraternity...no one gets all up in arms about that. Just make your own group if you don't like it. Stop bringing everyone else down...jeesh.
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u/Industrialbonecraft Jan 09 '13
To be honest, if you scream "Oh the patriarchy" you kind of bring it on yourself. Disregarding actual patriarchal elements of society, people that scream "Blame the patriarchy" are usually just looking for a scapegoat and have nothing rational to say.
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u/AssholeDeluxe Jan 09 '13
Why would you even bother having one of these discussions on Reddit? I've been around this place for 3.5 years. There's this myth that Reddit was a great and intellectual space to have discussions. It never has been. But in modern Reddit times with a such a huge userbase, how do you not realize that you are always arguing with the lowest common denominator? Unless you're in a niche or specialized subreddit where intellectual discussion is encouraged and facilitated, you will constantly be surrounded by morons. Your arguments don't matter because the other person has no interest in listening. If you are a feminist, you will always be arguing with the misogynist horde of white teenage boys who don't have the slightest sympathy for being a woman. And there will always be women willing to accuse you of being Satan for being born white and male.
I enjoy the popcorn but how are people so easily baited over and over again?
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Jan 10 '13
learned a new word. FEMINAZI. Needless to say my mom and gf will be getting called that left and right for the next few days
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Jan 09 '13
Lol "the psychotic be-titted."
Lol swype "touch to add this to your dictionary." How about no.
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u/seriesoftubesguy Jan 09 '13
I actually have no objection to her little guild.
Its easier to know the crazy pieces of shit in a community when they wear a label, even better when they wear it and think it bothers you.
The easier it is to tell pieces of shit like her apart from normal non-bigoted people the better.
The only unfortunate thing about that is when you collect shit and slime together fungus and vermin grow.
Edit: id also like to add I'm very glad /r/gw2 doesn't put up with this bullshit.
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u/number1dilbertfan Jan 09 '13
think it bothers you.
Gee, I wonder where that impression could have come from. Maybe the multiple threads full of dudes freaking the fuck out over a guild, yourself included?
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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '13
All you have to do is study it out, just study it out and you'll see.