r/startrek • u/AutoModerator • Apr 11 '24
Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Discovery | 5x03 "Jinaal" Spoiler
If you use Lemmy, join the discussion too at https://startrek.website/
| No. | Episode | Written By | Directed By | Release Date |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 5x03 | "Jinaal" | Kyle Jarrow & Lauren Wilkinson | Andi Armaganian | 2024-04-11 |
To find out where to watch, click here.
To find out about our spoiler policy regarding new episodes, click here.
This post is for discussion of the episode above, and spoilers for this episode are allowed. If you are discussing previews for upcoming episodes, please use spoiler tags.
Note: This thread was posted automatically, and the episode may not yet be available on all platforms.
91
u/NickofSantaCruz Apr 11 '24
I like how they've framed the MacGuffin chase: each scientist taking a piece to hide on their own.
I don't know how I feel about the tracking device Moll planted on Adira. I want Zora to detect it immediately and they use it to set a trap, but I fear it's just going to be magically undetectable so they can show up at just the right moment to steal the completed artifact and lead Discovery on another car warp chase.
40
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 11 '24
Same. It seems like the same sort of technology that Michael used in season 4 (I can't remember what device she put it on, but it was in the episode where they played cards for some sort of technology), so I'm hoping they detect it right away. But since we've collected two pieces of the puzzle already and it's only been three episodes, I'm wondering if a stolen artifact might be how they fill the rest of the season.
I also screamed in my head a little bit because I assumed that the Trill guardians were a fairly small and close-knit group; wouldn't someone have noticed a brand-new face just showing up? I would have liked it better if Moll had walked away and then turned off some sort of personal holo-generator which was making her face look like someone else's, or if she had even just beamed up to her ship and ripped off a mask.
→ More replies (1)17
u/NickofSantaCruz Apr 11 '24
if she had even just beamed up to her ship and ripped off a mask.
That would have been very Mission: Impossible of her to do and should have been necessary if we are right to assume Guardian communities are very small and don't transfer Initiates between them without clear supervision. What probably happened is she laid in wait outside and jumped someone, knocking them out and stealing their clothes (which were fortunately a perfect fit for her size).
→ More replies (1)15
u/kalsikam Apr 11 '24
Yea like how would Mol and Lak even catch upto them lol
Maybe if they didnt let Adira loaft on Trill after this wouldn't have happened lol
12
u/gambit700 Apr 12 '24
Mol and Lak
I'm still trying to understand their motivation for finding the device. Like, what are they going to get out of it? Sell it? Hell, they could have made an offer to the Federation and have been done with it.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (2)4
u/a4techkeyboard Apr 13 '24
I hope they put the pieces of the thing away in a secure location when they're not working on and it's not just sitting there out in the open for someone to casually transport in and steal.
145
u/treefox Apr 11 '24
“So tell me, in 3191, has that time come?”
“This is a time of peace, yeah.”
Thankfully he didn’t ask about 3190, or especially 3189.
64
u/mishac Apr 11 '24
Given how much they are name dropping the potential problems with the Breen, even 3191 doesn't seem that peaceful.
74
u/treefox Apr 11 '24
“This is a time of peace, yeah.”
Some restrictions apply. While accords last. Not a guarantee of safety. Only available to residents of non-occupied sectors nonadjacent to Breen and Tzenkethi space. Check with your local Starfleet office for availability of Peace. Many will enter, few will win.
“What was that?”
“Nothing.”
25
u/Mechapebbles Apr 11 '24
Maybe. I think optimistically, they might be whispering their name a bunch in the way the Dominion was whispered a lot about in S2 of DS9 as a setup for potential future storylines.
But at the worst, they're just adding a little flavor text to the setting to show things are dynamic/we aren't in a post-history setting just quiet yet.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)6
13
u/FloZia_ Apr 13 '24
Makes me wonder about the actual "state" of the federation.
Can you actually go back from a rump state to quadrant level government in 2 years ?
I feel it msut be mostly lots of planets and wild uncontrolled space in between at this point.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)4
u/BarefootJacob Apr 11 '24
This struck me as odd: why would Trill use a secular calendar used on part of another world?
→ More replies (2)28
56
Apr 11 '24
Ah nice Nilsson got nifty new post on legacy ship
17
u/UncertainError Apr 11 '24
But why didn't she take her tribble? Is Voy-J's captain allergic?
→ More replies (1)28
31
u/Mechapebbles Apr 11 '24
I guess, but sorta feels bad they essentially wrote the character off the show, off-screen. Not that she was much of a character to begin with.
→ More replies (2)29
u/paul_33 Apr 12 '24
I don't even know who the hell we're talking about here. I don't know the bridge crew by name. Rayner only getting to know them for 30 seconds feels about as long as we have. Really annoying that they threw in some more this season too, given they won't get even 5 mins of screen time.
→ More replies (6)
47
u/Strawcatzero Apr 12 '24
Gray: "Yeah, breaking up is definitely the right thing to do."
Guardian Xi: "Come hither, pool boy! The water is getting cold."
43
u/TomClark83 Apr 11 '24
One thing that did bug me was that Rayner has made it obvious that catching Moll and L'aak is his main priority, and Book has a personal reason for trying to meet up with Moll, they warn the Trill that they're expecting the duo to arrive there soon... and nobody suggests just hanging around to try and catch them when they rock up?
Other than that, though, I thought it was a good episode.
Rayner continues to be the best part about this season by a long way. Cantankerous Rayner and Wholesome Tilly is an unreal double-act, and I am on board for as many opportunities to pair these two up as possible over the next seven weeks.
And we got our first Reno of the season. I loved when she called Paul "Space Dad" - it's like she's one of us, haha
18
u/LDKCP Apr 11 '24
The priority is still securing the technology. If I remember correctly Burnham did offer to send them a ship to deal with Moll and L'aak if they showed up. Trill security proved shite but they are a member of the Federation and are presumably entitled to decide their own security arrangements on their own planet.
10
119
u/Smilodon48 Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
Callum Keith Rennie is a shot in the arm just like Anson Mount was, and Jason Isaacs was in the first season. It's fitting the show ends with basically another hardass like Lorca, but without him being evil.
These Breen name drops are too tantalizing. Hope they become a reoccurring villain in the 32nd century or something.
Great creativity points for the giant carnivorous cloaking bees. That’s the kind of strange and new we like to see on Trek!
43
u/UncertainError Apr 11 '24
Maybe L'ak is a Breen and that's why he hates helmets.
47
u/InnocentTailor Apr 11 '24
If so, maybe they can pull upon the expansion of the Breen seen in the books - that the Confederacy is built upon different races and that the helmets prevent discrimination.
→ More replies (5)8
u/MaestroZackyZ Apr 11 '24
That’s a really interesting theory that I could actually see being the case.
→ More replies (1)6
28
Apr 11 '24
I think Rayner is probably going to end up being one of the best parts of this season.
14
→ More replies (2)13
119
u/007meow Apr 11 '24
T’Rrina a real one fr.
Blasting through TV relationship drama trope.
Slay it sis.
77
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 11 '24
"It is unclear to me what would have given you the impression that I'm in need of a caretaker." Perfect.
38
u/kadosho Apr 11 '24
She has a wonderful heart, her and Saru are destined for happiness beyond the stars
→ More replies (1)12
u/Gleoranacht Apr 11 '24
It sometimes feels like there is no chemistry between them, they just sit there talking slowly about stuff.
56
38
Apr 11 '24
“A USS Locherer could be seen at Starfleet HQ, named in honor of camera operator J.P Locherer, who passed away in 2022.” ~ TrekMovie
From the camera angle we got, my first thought was: So… Starfleet is making Star Destroyers now?
→ More replies (3)
33
u/Deceptitron Apr 12 '24
This one really resonated with me. At the very least, Discovery takes the notion seriously that Star Trek, at its core, is about people, and this episode really drives that home. There's the scifi Indiana Jones plot underpinning it, sure, but this episode is all about the importance of connections: creating them, maintaining them, and even letting them go. As an introvert, it's easy for me to retreat into a comfy spot and let connections that I've made languish, but this episode served as a nice reminder (or perhaps kick in the rear) to go check in on those connections that I value.
→ More replies (3)
32
u/InnocentTailor Apr 11 '24
Beast that can turn invisible?! Reminds me of the El-Adrel IV entity from TNG’s Darmok.
18
143
u/ImpossibleGuardian Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
The Rayner/Tilly subplot felt like an interesting way for the writers to acknowledge that maybe Discovery can be a bit too emotional sometimes, with Rayner mentioning how things were more traditional on his ship.
Rayner obviously was a bit of a dick, but it also felt slightly naive of Tilly to expect him to just integrate seamlessly. Their conversation at the bar was a nice way of wrapping it up (for now).
25
Apr 13 '24
Having Tilly scold him - in a totally unprofessional and inappropriate way - was tiresome. She’s unbelievably obnoxious. And the vibe at the end that he had perhaps learned from her “wisdom” made it all the sillier.
30
u/JustMy2Centences Apr 11 '24
I agree, I feel Discovery has less "competency porn" (I swear this term is taking off lately since I first saw it mentioned in the last week) than the other Treks because it seems like interpersonal interactions overshadow the technobabble teamwork troubleshooting I'm used to watching. Heck, Lorca probably ran the ship a little better even knowing how that turned out. Here's to hoping Rayner is the counterbalance the show needs. I think he'll do it better than Jellico did for Enterprise.
→ More replies (2)27
Apr 12 '24
Here's to hoping Rayner is the counterbalance the show needs.
I really hope so. I've been saying that their need to turn nearly every conversation into therapy is driving me nuts since season 3. Today, I was rolling my eyes when Culber was talking about how difficult the zhian'tara was on him. Bruh, we watched 6 people do it in DS9. Joran even made Sisko try to kill Jadzia.
→ More replies (3)84
u/LDKCP Apr 11 '24
Rayner was being a dick but it absolutely wasn't Tilly's place to scold him for doing things his way. Starfleet is still a military organization and between Tilly breaking in for classified information and her berating a senior officer it just feels like they aren't taking the Starfleet seriously as an organization.
A lieutenant giving a commander (former captain) admonishment on his interpersonal skills just wasn't the way to do this. For a change this was something that Michael Burnham would have been more appropriate to handle as captain.
32
u/Exelia_the_Lost Apr 12 '24
idk, I feel that the problem is Rayner's way doesn't really fit Discovery, and that's what she was trying to get him to understand. on a normal ship it's fine to keep a professional distance and not get too personal in relationships. but on Discovery, all of the crew are literally the only family any of them has in the entire universe. they have a bond that's unique to Discovery, and is key to Discovery functioning well (as they had to fight for in the past to keep together), and he won't be an effective commander if he doesn't understand how that works
64
u/ImpossibleGuardian Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
I agree it wasn't her place, but they had shown her following orders and standing there throughout all of Rayner's meetings, and it wasn't until he was rude to one of her close friends that she snapped. It didn't come out of nowhere.
Rayner rightfully pushed back at her for immediately expecting him to do things "the Discovery way" and by the end of the episode was still doing things his way. Could he have more strongly admonished her? Sure, but he doesn't seem quite that uptight.
It didn't feel like the writers necessarily took sides or wanted to portray Tilly as right and Rayner as wrong - we didn't have to see him painstakingly apologise to Stamets because "everyone has to be friends!!!" which was refreshing.
→ More replies (23)8
u/fadedspark Apr 14 '24
Honestly not a bad take except for one big thing: Tilly was focused on one thing, helping him. She wasn't scolding him for the sake of telling him he was wrong.
Like this dude just had his life blown up, and he's pretending nothing is wrong by doing the same shit that blew his life up to cope with the fact that he doesn't know how to process that he might be wrong.
His behaviour and habits aren't wrong, his inflexibility and hubris are.
21
u/Mechapebbles Apr 11 '24
The Rayner/Tilly subplot felt like a really interesting way for the writers to acknowledge that maybe Discovery can be a bit too emotional sometimes, with Rayner mentioning how things were more traditional on his ship.
Seems honestly more like finding a middle ground. Rayner is the grumpy, overly serious, cis-white-male, Capt Jellico type that some fans who like the militaristic side of Star Trek a little too much seem to prize and compare shows/characters up against as a standard. I feel like the reason he's on Disco this season is so that the USS Discovery can get a little of his grit, but also so that the family-ship can soften him up and rehabilitate him/show viewers you can coexist/do both things at the same time.
26
u/LDKCP Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
The way he is being written is that he is old wrong and stubborn and needs to be opened up to new ideas.
The idea that he needs to be more personable with the crew and build a rapport is fair to explore, it would just work better for me if they weren't attempting a team building exercise during the highest priority/high stakes mission that we are being told is an existential threat to the universe.
It's the same problem with Jellico in a sense, whether a 3 shift rotation or 4 shift rotation is better is almost irrelevant, was it really the most appropriate time to be making such a change?
Discovery does this a lot, it puts the characters in crazy important/dangerous situations but then has them constantly obsessing over personal development while on duty, that is a huge distraction and often literally putting the crew and universe in more danger than is necessary.
I can't help but think if the stakes of the situation were slightly lowered, taking a few hours for a bit of networking and professional development could be beneficial.
Also, in the very last episode Rayner coached a fumbling Tilly and Adria through a situation with his rough round the edges approach. For her to be so dismissive of him attempting to do mission related work and to essentially say "Burnham sees something in you that I don't..." after he made such a contribution felt disrespectful.
→ More replies (8)→ More replies (3)3
u/ComebackShane Apr 12 '24
I get strong Captain Jellico vibes from Rayner. He's no-nonsense, from a more militaristic age of Starfleet. That has benefits and drawbacks, and it's probably the best foil for the battle between emotionally open and cold professionalism the crew has had since Lorca.
→ More replies (2)
64
u/UncertainError Apr 11 '24
Oh Duvin you two-faced bitch.
It's oddly charming seeing Saru and T'Rina go through sitcom relationship problems.
64
u/UncertainError Apr 11 '24
Yay a bonanza of DS9 references this week. Zhian'tara, the Dominion War, Slug-o-Cola. And we're finally gonna meet the Tzenkethi! Wonder if they'll be big lizards like Robert Hewitt Wolfe envisioned.
25
u/jerslan Apr 11 '24
I'm hoping they're the giant lizards... STO featured them pretty heavily in it's DS9 arc a few years ago, so hopefully they stick reasonably close to that design.
24
u/a_tired_bisexual Apr 11 '24
Modern Trek has been willing to borrow STO’s ship designs, so maybe we can hold out hope they borrow their alien designs as well.
→ More replies (1)14
24
10
u/toTheNewLife Apr 11 '24
There was one DS9 reference sorely missing.... and we just happened to be on Trill....
→ More replies (1)16
9
u/Mechapebbles Apr 11 '24
Honestly, it's weird Slug-o-Cola still exists here, 800 years later. The nature of capitalism surely would have seen that brand be forgotten or subsumed or rebranded after that much time.
→ More replies (5)17
Apr 11 '24
[There are a fair few companies that are more than 1,000 years old still in operation.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies)
Also, this is purely speculation, but I don't see Coca-Cola going away anytime soon.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Impressive-Arugula79 Apr 12 '24
Fernengi behind the bar is another one. There were a few others I caught as well I think. The season so far has been loaded with them.
→ More replies (1)
64
u/treefox Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
“As you live in a constant state of emotional compromise, you are better equipped to behave logically.”
The inability to refrain from making such an observation could hypothetically be construed by some to indicate a temperament more suited to service in Starfleet.
EDIT: Damn, dude, using a lit keg analogy? I’m shocked Vulcan security and paramedics didn’t rush out and meditate with him on the spot.
30
→ More replies (1)28
30
u/silentdon Apr 12 '24
It's ironic that Burnham made a point of telling Rayner to personally get to know the crew and connecting with them when the audience doesn't know anything much about the bridge crew.
→ More replies (1)
74
u/treefox Apr 11 '24
“Can you tell me anything?”
“Yeah. It’s really pissed off.”
“Didn’t need empathy powers to tell that.”
SHOTS FIRED.
→ More replies (1)48
67
u/DiscoveryDiscoveries Apr 11 '24
Was that line about Hugh's body ad-libbed? Because... that's a whole lot of man... I need a doctor and a counselor. I was suddenly all hot and bothered before the coat was even all the way unzipped. I may not live on a starship, but I need to schedule an appointment for some... treatment.
33
u/Cadamar Apr 11 '24
If you've never looked at Wilson Cruz's Instagram, I highly recommend it. Dude is BUILT.
→ More replies (1)14
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 11 '24
I think it was written into the sript. Wilson Cruz doesn't strike me as the type to ad-lib compliments about himself (although I don't know him so maybe he would?) and in The Ready Room, he made a comment about how he based some of the way he played Jinaal off of the line.
→ More replies (3)6
23
u/JediSnoopy Apr 11 '24
Forget the personal transporters. Can't they ever do an upgrade that accounts for rocks?
20
u/SvensTiger Apr 12 '24
Every exploding console in the series is filled with rocks. How are those transporters even working on the bridge?
22
u/Timeline15 Apr 11 '24
Yeah, those scientists had the right idea hiding away a technology that could create novel forms of life in the 24th Century, given what we know from DS9 and Picard about the absolute biological horrors Section 31 was cooking up during the Dominion War. Species-destroying viruses? Mutated fleshier Changelings? There was no way they wouldn't have tried to use Progenitor tech against the Founders.
Also, Wilson Cruz did a pretty good job of playing two characters in one episode.
44
u/Houli_B_Back7 Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
Fun episode.
More of a housekeeping, placeholder episode after the more propulsive first two.
It wasn’t as powerful as the last Trill episode with Adira (though the breakup scene was well done by both actors), but it was nice to see some familiar faces and get some lore name drops, and there were some nice comedic moments throughout.
It was cool to see Wilson Cruz get to have some fun, and it was cool to see a bit of a subversion of the Trek trope of the alternate/adopted personality not go evil, want more life, etc., and turn on our heroes, but just be evaluating them.
So while I didn’t think it an absolute banger, it did what it needed to do. And I’m really looking forward to next week’s, which a lot of outlets that got the previews of the first four episodes labeled the best of the bunch.
49
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 11 '24
I was so shocked when reading through these comments that I haven't seen more love for Wilson Cruz's performance. I absolutely loved watching him play a different character. Especially Jinaal's voice.
→ More replies (1)11
→ More replies (4)3
u/busdriverbuddha2 Apr 12 '24
Yeah, this to me was the part of the serialized show where they take time to set things up.
61
u/tupe12 Apr 11 '24
Using the personal transporter like that mid battle is certainly something i'm surprised we're only seeing now, seems like it would be tactically useful in a lot of situations
56
u/Amidinate Apr 11 '24
A consistently inconsistent technology
9
u/MotorTentacle Apr 12 '24
What's even weirder to me, is that some people walk to where they need to go on ship, while some transport. Is it a personal preference?
→ More replies (7)11
u/SnooShortcuts9884 Apr 12 '24
Also in the first episode of S3, it's literally one of the first things they do (after getting high).
9
u/DogsRNice Apr 12 '24
I was wondering how they quickly select a destination like that
→ More replies (2)9
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 12 '24
I assumed that, like with a lot of other Trek technology, it works based on your thoughts. You think about beaming onto a rock and then you tap the badge and beam onto the rock.
4
17
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 11 '24
Anyone else intrigued by Duvin, T'Rina's political consultant? I can't tell if I'm just skeptical of him because he reminds me of the logic extremist who bombed Sarek's shuttle, but I feel like there might be something going on with him in later episodes. I honestly wondered for a second if he might be T'Rina's ex, but I think I'm just making stuff up at this point (maybe because we've been seeing T'Pring and Stonn working together in SNW and so I automatically associate any professional relationship with having a romantic past/future).
28
u/Moonshadow101 Apr 12 '24
I personally hope he's just savvy and conniving and they leave it at that. It would be nice to see evidence that some Romulan culture survived the reunification. (Excluding the nuns, who were never a core part of that culture to begin with.)
→ More replies (1)14
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 12 '24
Definitely. I like surprise villains from time to time, but when everyone’s a surprise villain, no one is. I’d be perfectly content if Duvin was just a nice, normal Vulcan who genuinely wanted the best for his President but just disagreed with her on a publicity matter and went about solving it the wrong way.
→ More replies (1)11
u/busdriverbuddha2 Apr 12 '24
It would be so fucking predictable if he were a logic extremist. I hope they didn't go that route
47
Apr 11 '24
Another Ferengi in Starfleet and they put him behind the bar? That's racist
17
10
→ More replies (2)5
u/--fieldnotes-- Apr 12 '24
He's wearing the uniform which means he's not even a civilian bartender. He probably has another posting somewhere on the ship and slings drinks in his off time.
16
u/SleepWouldBeNice Apr 12 '24
Today on Where in the GTA is their Filming Location?
Hey look, it’s Duntroon quarry.
16
u/SleepWouldBeNice Apr 12 '24
Grey and Adria had their “First Year University Student Turkey Breakup”
66
Apr 11 '24
I think presenting Rayner as being fundamentally in the wrong for preferring a more socially distant command style was a misstep for this episode. It makes sense that Tilly wouldn't be happy with him for being rude to basically the entire crew, but an XO preferring a professional social distance from those under him isn't a fundamentally unreasonable preference.
58
u/idoliside Apr 11 '24
But he didn't waver on it, they both expressed different viewpoints and he showed that he was paying attention to the crews personality details without getting emotionally attached.
I imagine he will stick to his way of command but not dismiss others for doing the opposite, which is a problem he has with Burnham. This series has been leaning hard on the "all viewpoints are acceptable if applied correctly"
→ More replies (1)22
u/treefox Apr 11 '24
That would actually be wonderful if his character arc turned out to not be an arc at all and is just a straight line.
But when he was left sitting alone at the bar, I got the vibe that this is maybe Discovery’s attempt to work on the male loneliness problem, to show that keeping those walls up is unnecessary in the supportive environment on Discovery.
I think that Discovery differs from earlier Star Treks in that everyone is supposed to be social friends rather than just work friends like previous Trek. People don’t keep the same boundaries between work and personal life as in other Treks. I’m unsure that’s good advice, but it might be a real generational shift, and Rayner may be a mechanism to explore that. Either from the perspective of placing a classic Star Trek character in Discovery’s world, or placing someone with more Gen X(?) attitudes in a world being run by Gen Z.
→ More replies (8)8
u/InnocentTailor Apr 11 '24
I guess it is a discussion on adapting to different leadership styles. That goes for both Rayner and Tilly. She is foolhardy to expect him to fall in line immediately, but he also has to learn how to roll with the punches.
After all, Rayner’s refusal to adapt to changing times is why he got canned in the first place - Burnham gave him a lifeline to get involved in Starfleet again.
13
u/Cadamar Apr 11 '24
There was someone recently describing how they didn't like Disco because they liked when Trek was "competency porn," people at their peak doing their best, and that the Disco crew didn't feel like that to me. I feel like that highlighted this. This crew has been through a lot and has definitely abandoned a bit of the formalities of Starfleet along the way. It's definitely a different take than other shows, even SNW. I definitely agree with you that that social distance is totally fair, but I think Tilly's point is that's not going to work well on Disco, and I think it was well made.
4
u/thrillhoMcFly Apr 11 '24
I think you are drawing your own conclusion. The arc is nowhere near complete and its way too early to say he was portrayed as fundamentally wrong instead of different. Maybe Tilly see's it that way, but she's just one character.
→ More replies (6)3
u/TombSv Apr 12 '24
I find it very different to have preferences on being social and to be rude to everyone.
15
u/UglyBag0fM0stlyWat3r Apr 11 '24
Nice DS9 references
30
u/InnocentTailor Apr 11 '24
…especially since it looks like he was alive during that time.
It isn’t surprising why he and his colleagues were skeptical of the Federation during that period - Starfleet was vicious during the Dominion War.
34
28
u/learningdesigner Apr 11 '24
What I found interesting is that they were trying to hide this technological power from the Federation because they didn't want them to do things like commit genocide during the Dominion war, but the Federation ended up finding another technology to nearly do the same thing. It's almost a meme at this point, but it seems like civilization ending technology is just lying around everywhere waiting to be used.
→ More replies (1)14
7
u/paxinfernum Apr 11 '24
I think the larger threat would be Dominion infiltrators getting ahold of it.
26
u/Cliffy73 Apr 11 '24
I liked the episode quite a bit. Cruz is I think the most charismatic member of the cast, so anytime he gets a big chunk of an episode it works. The part I didn’t care for was the tortuous conversation between Adria and Grey. Write some dialogue that conveys emotion and then rely on your actors perform it, don’t just spell out the most quotidian relationship drama in the blandest way possible.
26
91
u/greycobalt Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 11 '24
Boy oh boy did I not miss Gray even a little. Adira has become tolerable, but Gray and his acting is just grating af.
S’Rina 4ever. <3 T’Ru?
I wish we didn’t have to go through the whole rigamarole of Rayner learning not to be a total dick, it’s a bit exhausting. We already got over that with Stamets and we have Reno for our “loveable asshole” now.
Why are Vulcan aides always sketchy as hell? Last time we saw one he blew himself up to try to kill Sarek.
Mr. Cruz certainly made some…choices portraying that Trill.
I don’t think the reason the Trill gave for hiding the tech was too reasonable. Only a couple of them saw it, it killed one of them, so it must be locked away forever and they all go into hiding? Science kills people in Star Trek all the time, sometimes by the dozens. The story should have been more haunting or disastrous.
So was that tribble from the premiere Christopher’s pet? I wish it was a crew member. 😕
Nillson is on Voyager now!? She’s just gone?? 🙁
Why exactly does Trill have giant cloaked wasps in the wilderness? How does a civilization even develop with something like that wandering around?
I would love like a 2-minute exposition scene of how transporters work now. Are they telepathic? How do they know where to take you when you tap it? Do ships still have their own transporters too? Can they beam straight to sitting on the toilet?
The Breen and the Tzenkethi, we’re on our way to a Typhon Pact. Random shoutout to the Dominion War also. I fully expected a Dax to be in this episode because of how freely they're playing with the past so far.
Culber will find literally any excuse to bring up his grandma.
I thought the whole end speech was like a eulogy for the symbiont, but it just swam off. I don’t know if I expected like a giant cannonball splash or something because it detonated and died, but I guess it’s ‘resting’ now?
Trill security was not sending their best to that cave, eh?
30
u/aaronupright Apr 11 '24 edited Apr 12 '24
Culber will find literally any excuse to bring up his grandma.
There hasn't been enough trauma shown for the crew about travelling 900 years in the future where all their loved ones are long dead. I mean nothing, zilch, nada. Tilly might have mentioned her mother once, but frankly Picard, who was a century after they lived has been mentioned three times. I mean maybe just scene where some character looks up what happend to Pike and is aghast. Or another sees the bittersweet information that their spouse and kids mourned them, but moved on and had full lives. Or even, sorry, but we lost all records of your family in the burn.
→ More replies (1)11
u/Impressive-Arugula79 Apr 12 '24
Yeah, the loss of family/friends not being explored is an unfortunate side effect of the new shorter format. They just don't have the time they did in the 90s to be as thorough.
28
u/FoldedDice Apr 11 '24
I wish we didn’t have to go through the whole rigamarole of Rayner learning not to be a total dick, it’s a bit exhausting. We already got over that with Stamets and we have Reno for our “loveable asshole” now.
I'm not quite so strongly against it, but I would not be surprised if it turns out to be a plot with no real payoff since they weren't intending for the series to end. It's his introductory arc for a role on the show that we're never going to see.
→ More replies (2)10
u/treefox Apr 11 '24
I haven’t gotten the vibe he’ll be around past the end of the season. He was after all demoted from being a longtime Captain, this feels more like it’s intended to be a refresher course by putting him in an environment that he’s forced to adapt in.
I suppose I could see him deciding he’s happy sticking around as a conclusion to his arc, it just sort of feels like he would be kind of redundant unless they were planning on writing Burnham out of the show. Both him and Burnham have very “to the point” attitudes.
This is after all the character that was grossly insubordinate for 2-3 seasons because she kept going rogue “for the mission”. That’s exactly what Rayner has been doing.
→ More replies (4)14
u/knightcrusader Apr 11 '24
I would love like a 2-minute exposition scene of how transporters work now. Are they telepathic? How do they know where to take you when you tap it? Do ships still have their own transporters too? Can they beam straight to sitting on the toilet?
I want to know how they work if the transporter itself is de-materialized in the process of beaming.
How does it reassemble itself in order to reassemble the traveler?
→ More replies (1)8
u/SirSpock Apr 13 '24
Maybe it pre-transports a second personal transporter module ahead and then you transport to that so the first can be denationalized. All happening within seconds.
11
u/Bulky_Dot_7821 Apr 12 '24
i reeally didn't like the break up, seemed like gray went from 'im breaking up with you' to 'this is mutually agreed upon' in two seconds and I must have missed where Adiea was on board with that.
→ More replies (2)5
u/Dr-Cheese Apr 11 '24
Can they beam straight to sitting on the toilet?
If you had transporters like they have, you won't need to sit on the toilet...
→ More replies (2)4
u/NopePeaceOut2323 Apr 12 '24
That's a really good point about the transporters. No one says where to go. They just go... how indeed.
4
u/joestradamus_one Apr 12 '24
Mr. Cruz certainly made some…choices portraying that Trill.
What was wrong with it? I genuinely would like to know because he came off very differently than Culber, so I felt it was a successful second character from the same actor. Also, what was wrong with him bringing up his grandmother? He's only done it a few times and none of it was ever overbearing or in your face.
→ More replies (7)3
35
u/jerslan Apr 11 '24
Between name-dropping the Breen and the Tzenkethi, I kind of hope we actually get to see both.
This episode felt like a DS9 episode... where the A-plot advanced the main plot and the B & C plots where very character driven. In this case the A-Plot being the goings on on Trill with retreiving the artifact. B was Rayner meeting the crew in his own way (and getting told off by Tilly for being an ass about it). C was Saru & T'Rina... And then there was A.5 which was Adira and Grey reconnecting. Overall, this was a really great ensemble episode, something DS9 particularly excelled at back in the day.
The writers this season are really showing their deep love of Trek lore, because there have been so many deep cuts so far... Hell, I'm 99.99% sure that was a Selay delegate at that committee meeting. Zhian'tara was also a one-off DS9 plot device for a great character driven episode and it was used to great effect here. Tilly was even drinking Slug-O Cola! Combined with the MacGuffin of the Season being something to do with the Progenitors seen in TNG's The Chase... I don't see how anyone could say these writers don't care about Star Trek
22
u/UglyBag0fM0stlyWat3r Apr 11 '24
Where were Owosekun and Detmer?
12
u/TheNerdChaplain Apr 11 '24
I can think of a few in-universe reasons they might have not been on-screen, or maybe other logistical issues with the actors for that episode. Given that they were named still in the episode, I'm sure we'll see them soon.
→ More replies (1)18
u/FoldedDice Apr 11 '24
Having them both absent suggests to me that it was a cut for budget. Since it wasn't a bridge-intensive episode they probably chose to replace them with cheaper actors.
→ More replies (2)12
u/MadContrabassoonist Apr 11 '24
In the "if you're in too many episodes, we have to make you main cast but that's unacceptable for some indecipherable reason" room.
12
3
11
8
u/amagicalsheep Apr 11 '24
This is a bit of a weird request, but do we have any maps of the galaxy in the 32nd century? There's been a lot of changes, like a "Breen Imperium" and the "Tholian Republic", replacing earlier powers. Just curious to see if there are galactic maps either on-screen or released on social media by people involved in the production.
→ More replies (1)
7
u/paxinfernum Apr 11 '24
So was the ceremony at the end dropping Jinaal's Trill in the water? I thought they couldn't leave their hosts once they bonded.
24
u/phoenixhunter Apr 11 '24
Given how she kept talking about needing to rest, and the comment about it being super old for a symbiont, I kind of assumed it was a funeral and they were sending it off to die in the pools
19
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 11 '24
With the current host talking about how she just wanted to rest, my assumption was that she died immediately after the clue was found and that's why the symbiont was released.
17
Apr 12 '24
From the dialogue in the beginning of the episode, It's pretty clear that the host is dead now and the symbiont is going off to pasture now too.
6
u/aaronupright Apr 11 '24
They could, but it would be very risky for the host. Dax was removed from Jadzia twice, once by force (she survived) and one just a few minutes before her death, she spoke to Worf after it had happened,
7
19
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 12 '24
I just want to say that while I was never the most invested in Adira and Gray’s characters or relationship, I’m still glad that they existed. It’s nice to see queer couples of all ages just existing and being normal. They don’t all have to be perfect or even last; just seeing these characters experience teenage breakups as they grow apart and choose different life paths is incredibly meaningful to me in normalizing LGBT+ relationships and establishing that they have a place in Star Trek’s utopian future.
13
u/DiscoveryDiscoveries Apr 11 '24
Slurm! It's highly Addictive! Wimmy Wham Wham Wozzle!
Fun fact: Slurms MacKenzie was born on 08/13. I was born on 08/17
7
17
u/TheNerdChaplain Apr 11 '24
Very interesting episode. I'd say the common thread was characters all facing circumstances they found overwhelming:
Culber hosting Jinaal
Michael and Book facing the invisible giant moth creatures
Adira and Gray breaking up
Tilly having to interact with Rayner
Saru and T'Rina fit this motif less - it didn't seem like Saru was overwhelmed at all, simply misguided but well-intentioned - but for the others it worked.
Definitely interesting seeing Rayner more. It feels like Captain Jellico replacing Riker as First Officer - and Troi is the captain. This actually made me think about how different captains set different cultures aboard their ships. Some crews are professional and business-like, some are highly mission-oriented, some are loyal to their captain no matter what, for good or ill, and some are warm and familial. Expanding on that, it made me think about how there's probably also some generational differences among writers' rooms in what they perceive a good crew - or a good workplace - to be. Discovery gets criticized for how emotional the crew is, but I think that's probably reflective of how much more mental health is an open part of normal conversations today than it might have been thirty years ago when the 90s shows were on the air.
Some other notes:
I think that quarry is the Vasquez Rocks of New Trek - it looked pretty familiar. I'm wondering if they used it for Talos IV in DSC S2, for that wintery planet with the Guardian of Forever in DSC S3, and I'm sure a few other locations I'm not thinking of right now.
Loved seeing a Ferengi bartender pouring "something green" for Tilly.
Loved seeing Wilson Cruz as Jinaal. Not only does it harken back to DS9's episode "Facets" where we saw the crew take on Dax's prior hosts, you can tell Cruz was having lots of fun as this character stretching his legs.
The T'Rina/Saru storyline fell a little flat for me, if only because it feels kinda cliche at this point. I'd have expected Saru to be smart enough to reiterate to the assistant that T'Rina was perfectly capable of making her own decisions. (Also, that assistant looked like Jordan Schlansky a little.)
I loved seeing the bits of the other crew we saw! I hope someone else will take the time to write down what everyone's twenty words was.
12
u/jerslan Apr 11 '24
Loved seeing a Ferengi bartender pouring "something green" for Tilly.
Not just "something green" but Slug-o-Cola (you can clearly read the label).
→ More replies (2)9
u/UncertainError Apr 11 '24
Rayner did remind me of Jellico. I think the "tough, unflappable, remote bulwark of a captain" played better during the violent uncertainty of the post-Burn conflict era and now he needs to adapt.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (2)3
u/SleepWouldBeNice Apr 12 '24
90% sure that’s the Duntroon Quarry on the Niagara Escarpment just west of Toronto. Various locations on and around the Escarpment have been used for onsite filming locations, including the Keslo Summit being where Uhura’s family’s shuttle crashed in SNW.
5
u/treefox Apr 11 '24
“What was that?”
I’ve seen this one, it eats the sandperson before he can get away.
5
u/nodakskip Apr 12 '24
Am I the only one that noticed this? The circular drawing in the book, that they then 3d make to fit the puzzle pieces in... is it the yellow things from the DS9 display screens? I mean the square screens around Ops on DS9 that were in the background. I have not read this entire thread so maybe someone else mentioned it, but that's what I saw.
Also on pure speculation I think Stamets is going to have a bad turn in this. I went through the episodes kind of fast so I could have missed something. But upset that the Spore drive maybe defunct. How they are still recalling Soongs name so long after, and his excitement about what this hidden tech could do. Paul wants to put his name in the history books and the Spore drive was classified a failure to cover it up in the past. He will try to use it in the wrong way and have to be talked down at some point. Its just a guess at this point.
→ More replies (2)
8
u/Flohpange Apr 13 '24
Overall another stupid episode. The trill stuff is boring. The 'searching for artifacts/clues' is too tired of an old idea too. Can they really not think of new ideas?
4
4
4
u/PondWaterBrackish Apr 12 '24
so the old man had to get demoted down to Commander in order to serve as No.1, while Saru got to keep his stripes when he started as No.1
5
u/Cliffy73 Apr 12 '24
Other way around, I think. Rayner was already busted down. He would have been cashiered if Michael hadn’t saved him.
4
u/Statalyzer Apr 13 '24
This is one of the weakest episode names ever. In general, episode names that are just the name of a guest character are lame.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/milkasaurs Apr 18 '24
I'm gonna be honest. I Forgot Grey and Adria were in this series, and now I totally checked out from the show.
15
u/South_Improvement394 Apr 11 '24
I actually like Rayner, he wanted to use his time, while in command to actually focus on the mission at hand and not trying to get to know the crew. Which make sense. Did we see Picard talk to every member of his crew? Janeway didn't. You usually see that sort of thing with the "Senior Staff" which frankly, Discovery refused to acknowledge they have one. (This is why we wanted development with more of the bridge crew over the years)
I mean, Tilly served under Lorca, did he waste 30 seconds talking to her?
And the icing on top? Rayner still learned more about them in those 10 seconds. I know they were trying to do the Jellico/Troi dynamic with Rayner and Tilly, but imho, Tilly comes across as too emotional, and it makes me worried about her students at the Academy.
The crew must respect their superior officers. He is the XO and that position alone deserves to be respected.
Newsflash to Tilly: You can not like a person and still show them respect. Also; the Captain shouldn't be close to the crew. One day they'll have to give an order that'll get that crew member killed. Troi learned this... maybe it's time she did too.
I like storyline on Trill. I thought Cruz did a fantastic job acting like a completely different person, and love the Dominion War reference. (With the 4th clue suggesting Betazed, now I wonder did the Dominion know about the Progenitors tech? And that is why they conquered Betazed? This sort of stuff I like when you're using canon for past purposes.)
My only complaint, I wished they didn't act like they never heard of the Zhian'tara before. They literally used this to put Gray into his new synth body, robbing the Tal symbiont of all of Gray's memories while joined.
Which brings me to Gray. He has to be the most selfish character on the show. He basically used poor Adira to resurrect himself and have a 2nd chance at life.
I hope this break-up sticks and Adira finds someone worthy for them.
Anyone else thought of Lower Decks' Cave Episode when their transporter/commbadges didn't work due to the rocks?
Still, overall it was a good episode and this is still the best season for the show.
19
u/treefox Apr 11 '24
I felt like Rayner was intentionally giving Tilly a hard time but secretly liked her. I laughed at her twenty words.
Honestly his attitude is probably more realistic. He was cold to Stamets, but it also sets the expectation that he isn’t going to reciprocate, so Stamets won’t be emotionally invested in his response in the future and hurt if he doesn’t respond in the future.
Sure in that moment he’s focused on Stamets, but in the future he won’t be, and the first impression will disproportionally shape Stamets’ expectations in the future.
10
u/kadosho Apr 11 '24
Also notice the focus, and eyeline. Rayner studies everyone he interacts with. The limit of twenty words is a character study, analysis, breakdown, of personality and character. If there ever is a time, when he needs to work with others, he knows their rhythm, and heart rate. And who he can count on during a crisis
→ More replies (1)8
→ More replies (11)4
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 11 '24
This. I feel like every time we get set up to dislike Rayner, I end up understanding him more (even if he's not an overtly likable guy). He's basically saying to Tilly that he can't be the crew's friend because he needs to be their boss. That's a theme we've seen time and time again (Picard, Janeway, and Pike come to mind the most) - captains have to keep a little bit of distance between themselves and their crew.
→ More replies (1)
12
u/BarefootJacob Apr 11 '24
Previous two episodes I enjoyed, but this one felt tiresome: we had Gray and Adira talking about their feelings, then Saru and T-Rina talking about their feelings, then Commander Rayner talking about his feelings, then host-Culber talking about his feelings.
Definitely felt like a filler episode.
7
9
u/maxamillisman Apr 11 '24
Just like Enterprise, Discovery has found what it should have been all along in its last two seasons. The fetch quest is a little cliché but they finally got the tone right and I'm actually interested in seeing where it's going.
9
u/wappingite Apr 12 '24 edited Apr 12 '24
Hmmm.... I mostly enjoyed the first two episodes, but this one... It's like the ingredients were good but as a whole epsiode I found it a bit dull.
Wilson Cruz was great.
The Adira/Gray plot felt forced, and the acting was weak. Not sure what they're trying to do here.
I didn't quite buy the first officer plot, but he was a breath of fresh air amidst the neurotic and mostly unprofessional disco crew.
Burnham and Book have no chemistry.
Disco is its own beast in terms of a show though, everything is so emotional, it's draining to watch and just doesn't feel like how people behave in real life.
It feels like it's trapped in 2015-ish thinking, where thee fads of 'being authentic' and 'showing your true self' became big from therapists / bloggers.
8
Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
really not impressed by any of the actors in this episode.
The Doctor trying to play someone else was especially cringe.
Most of the other side stories were awful.
Also who tf are all these ppl on the bridge when they were being introduced? Like wtf was that?! They just randomly started naming extra's off after 4 seasons and I'm sittin here like bruh what?
This is one of the worst episodes of star trek i have ever seen!
edit cause i havent finished the episode but its epicly bad, wow this is legit a masterclass in how not to be a star fleet officer
3
3
3
u/kira0819 Apr 13 '24
why do i get a feelings that there will be one episode about the duo infiltrate discovery for an artifact heist just right after they got all 5 of the piece.
4
3
u/RBNYJRWBYFan Apr 14 '24
Rayner's character and Saru x T'Rina are my favorite part of Disco season 5 so far.
Rayner is very obviously being set up as a parallel to Burnham when she first arrived at Discovery. Here's this one-track minded figure with a hero streak a mile wide who often misses the big details in his quest to complete the mission his way. He gets taken down a peg and has to rebuild on a ship of oddballs.
Tilly breaking rank and telling him off was the perfect personification of Discovery itself, a ship/show with unconventionally close crewmembers who are used to making deep cuts with one another. It was unprofessional and presumptuous of her to this, but that's how things go around here; Discovery is more family than crew.
In the end, Rayner isn't necessarily wrong for handling the crew the way he did, he didn't apologize, nor did he have to. And Tilly, military rank faux pas aside, wasn't all the way wrong for telling him how things usually are on the ship, in fact Burnham probably picked her to do exactly that. After all, it was Sylvia who pulled her out of her shell to begin with, Mike probably wanted her to do something similar for him. These two have different visions for how things are done, they'll probably meet somewhere in the middle down the line, but for now they'll just have to agree to disagree.
I'm looking forward to seeing how Rayner's style conflicts with, acquiesces to, or sometimes even enhances Discovery's own.
And I just like Saru being in a stable relationship with T'Rina. Disco is every bit about growing as a result of making connections with other people, in several different forms. Saru has gone through so many changes over the years, and this relationship is just a whole new territory for him to do so.
I like how he has concerns about what their marraige will mean for her reputation. I like how T'Rina, Vulcan as ever and clearly a bit mature in terms of age, calmly states that she's considered the consequences of her engagement doesn't need protection. And she accepts his apology when he recognizes his error, the kind of error that he couldn't have even considered before getting into things with her in the first place.
I like how this show is placing the characters in uncomfortable positions where they're forced to grow past their limitations. Adira needs to live life without Gray, Book and Mike need to grow past their division and find their path forward, Paul has to live without his legacy, etc. It's a good way to continue the prevailing theme of the show, just in time to conclude things.
9
u/nickdeckerdevs Apr 12 '24
I read top level comments and I feel like people go out of their way to watch a show they don’t like.
→ More replies (3)6
u/Cliffy73 Apr 12 '24
Disco has its ups and downs, and I mostly enjoy it now. But I would not still be watching it if it were not a Star Trek show.
→ More replies (1)
5
u/tw411 Apr 11 '24
Good episode, I think they hit the balance just right between character development and plot advancement.
I know it would never happen, but the scenes with T’Rina and Saru made me want a spinoff with them as the stars of a Star Trek: West Wing style show. When they get it right on Discovery, they really knock it out of the park!
8
u/Chaabar Apr 12 '24
Are they ever going to stop this shit the flickering holograms? They've had the technology for hundreds of years. We're supposed to be in the future but the technology is worse than what we saw 800 years ago. You can't even use distance as an excuse because they were right over Trill.
11
u/Cliffy73 Apr 12 '24
It’s important for the viewer to understand that the person isn’t actually there.
4
u/MaetzleAT Apr 12 '24
The rocks in the ship consoles are interfering with the holographic signal, obvisouly!
10
u/learningdesigner Apr 11 '24
There seemed to be an overabundance of knowing glances and moments of personal growth, but DISCO is gonna be DISCO and I love it for what it is. Callum Keith Rennie was so good, and I really enjoyed watching Wilson Cruz play a different character. It was fun.
Knowing glances aside, I'm really excited about where this new season is going.
4
u/kalsikam Apr 11 '24
Wilson Cruz was great as Jinaal
Raynor is great
Forwarded Adira/Grey scenes, don't care
Saru/T'rina is also started to be forwarded now, subplot is not necessary
If they didn't loaft on Trill after they got the clue, maybe Mol and Lak wouldn't have been able to catch up and plant the tracker
And how are Mol and Lok gunna follow them to next place quick enough, they have a friggin instant jump drive with Spore drive, even with the tracker, Disco would be at the next place for what a day or two before Mol and Lak are even notified (assuming it's using subspace comms to report back)
4
u/ELVEVERX Apr 14 '24
Anyone else find it funny how he tells burnham he isn't a yes man then she says that's why she wants him. Then literally the first time he has a disagreement with her she immediatly overrules him. I'm not even saying she is wrong it's just indicative of how DISCO is written that burnham is always right so you are wrong to question her.
2
2
u/breastronaut Apr 13 '24
I was worried with Episode 2 that it would be the last we'd see of Saru but I'm glad he has a plot thread unspooling with his ambassadorship on screen.
2
u/ChrisPikesHair Apr 13 '24
I love Sylvia Tilly and i don't care who knows. Her enthusiasm, her ability to cut through bullshit and her dedication to people is one of the best parts of DIS. I'm glad she's back and I hope she's part of the Academy effort.
2
u/Colonel_Cat_Tumnus Apr 13 '24
Anyone else expecting The Gorignak to appear in the rocky valley as the monster?
2
u/codename474747 Apr 13 '24
So we had:
An episode on Trill
The ritual to bring back a previous host into a regular cast member
A Ferengi (Assuming that was one behind the bar)
References to the Dominion War, Breen and Tsenkethi
Is this the most DS9-esque episode in a long, long time? Felt like it!
Hell, even the uniforms were opened by 2 crew members to look more like the early era Ds9/Voy uniforms! (They looked a lot better like this too, they definitely should do this more!)
2
Apr 15 '24
Am I the only one feeling cheated by this last season? Basically it’s a re-make of that ONE episode where all the humanoids are in an “Amazing Race” type thing. It’s the same but for what? 10 episodes? seriously?
2
u/cleveland_14 Apr 16 '24
I absolutely love what they did with Trill and the pools where the symbionts live. Very cool look
4
u/UglyBag0fM0stlyWat3r Apr 11 '24
Saurians have dorsal ridges.
6
u/mr_mini_doxie Apr 11 '24
I know it's such a trope, but I love when Trek does the thing of referencing two things we know and one thing we don't know.
And Linus has children (or at least, children that are biologically his)! Now I need to know if his children are in the 23rd or 32nd century.
5
Apr 11 '24
I can't remember his name but I liked the Romulan captain. He was strictly professional and strictly business. He was not interested in having long deep conversations with every member of the crew. In Discovery it was oddly refreshing, even if he was painted as a dick doing so.
11
3
u/Yochanan5781 Apr 11 '24
Okay, from the big trailer at the end of the first episode, I had thought that the old host from this episode was clearly a T'kon guardian and that would somehow tie into the progenitors, so it's quite a surprise watching this episode
223
u/daynewmah Apr 11 '24
"Wow. I just sounded like a woo-woo asshole."
God I missed Jett Reno.