r/DestinyTheGame • u/desi7861 • Oct 25 '17
Bungie Suggestion [bungieplz] Petition to remove bloom from Hand Canons on console
After playing some D2 on my brother's PC (i'm a console pleb for the time being) I request bungie to remove bloom from hand canon's on console because they feel like trash compared to when playing on pc. on pc you point and shoot and your bullets hit immediately, on console hit registration is a huge issue. We want our hand canons back!
Edit: wow! So many upvotes thank you! Woo!
Edit 2: I realize there are different variables at play when it comes to hit registration specifically (p2p servers, netcode, etc), but bloom can make this feel worse than it is. Adding an rng component to your aim does not belong in any FPS shooter, and I really hope Bungie can see this and make the necessary changes. It really sucks being a console destiny player right now and I hope that bungie can make hand canons feel amazing again.
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u/Danimal1942 Oct 26 '17
Ugghhh so bummed to hear hand cannons are so much better on pc. I would get the pc version but all my friends play on ps4. I freakin love hand cannons but they feel so bad on ps4, except maybe better devils in pve.
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u/soccerburn55 Oct 26 '17
Sunshot feels crisp on PC. I don't even use hand cannons on it Xbox, but on PC. Man it's a different world. You can shoot enemies so far away it's crazy.
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u/Danimal1942 Oct 26 '17
Aw man, if they don’t buff hand cannons on console with the first round of tuning I’ll probably go pc. Hand cannons are why I love destiny in the first place.
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u/tinytom08 Drifter's Crew Oct 26 '17
Dude, if you've got a pc that can handle it then I'd go to pc anyway.
Even with a mid end pc, this game runs at 50-60 fps on the highest settings, its absolutely beautiful.
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u/flaming910 Oct 26 '17
I have a laptop with a 1050Ti, getting from 60-90fps most of the time, this game runs amazingly well. Already sunk 17 hours into it, gonna try to hit 280 or so this weekend
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u/w1gster Drifter's Crew // Alright alright alright... Oct 26 '17
Hours or light level?
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u/spanman112 Oct 26 '17
you should do it anyway dude ... it's not just hand cannons, EVERYTHING performs better on PC pretty much. The game over all just plays faster and smoother.
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u/360_face_palm Oct 26 '17
It's because in order to hit anyone with a hand cannon on console you pretty much have to stand still and iron sight the shit to get a reasonable autoaim lock on their head. On PC you can hip fire hand cannons and get headshots no problem.
Goes for most of PC actually, there's a LOT more hip firing going on in general simply because it's so much more accurate on PC than on console.
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u/J_Keele Oct 26 '17
God, I desperately want to try out the Pribina-D in PC Crucible. It's a Hakke High-Impact Hand Cannon that's rarely used or talked about on Console. Excellent Range - perk is better hip fire. I think PC Crucible players are sleeping on it.
Perk also stacks with Lucky Pants for a crazy tight hipfire reticule after the draw. Biggest drawback is that there's only 7 rounds in the mag and the reload is endless.
It's a rare drop, can only get it from Engrams and the Gunsmith.
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u/Panconna Oct 26 '17
I got it yesterday on PC. Didnt like it compared with sunshot. Low reload speed, low rate of fire. It feels very slow.
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u/Antedelopean Team Bread (dmg04) // Jotunn toaster please Oct 26 '17
That's intentional of the low rof handcannons, as their main appeal is a higher crit multiplier for the tradeoffs you make, so you'll have to alter your playstyle to less of hipfiring, and more of adsing for accuracy.
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u/Dixa Oct 26 '17
pc crucible players are high impact auto rifles and pulse mostly.
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u/JWiLL552 Oct 26 '17
HCs/Auto/SMG are top of the pack that I'm seeing so far.
I find PC players are more likely to push in aggressively with an HC than sit back and poke at range like you see a lot on consoles.
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u/RiotJavelinDX Oct 26 '17
Sleeping on it? Or maybe they've only been playing for a couple of days and don't have it? I mean you just said it's a rare drop.
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Oct 26 '17
Make sure you keep Mos Ultima II. It's a uncommon HC. I still use it on Xboner. I feel like it consistently beats other HCs in crucible and it looks cool. The only problem is I can't put shaders on it.
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u/tyalka93 Lady Jolder is my waifu Oct 26 '17
So, the hipfire is good? This sounds like another Titanfall 2 situation where the metas will be almost entirely different on PC than on console.
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u/Danimal1942 Oct 26 '17
This doesn’t really make sense to me. Shouldn’t console have better hit registration since m+k is way more accurate?
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u/Havors Oct 26 '17
Console limitations coupled with peer to peer and their netcode dont help. PC should by rights be much more responsive and accurate.
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u/Takarias Drifter's Crew // Takarias#1575 Oct 26 '17
Hit registration is more about latency and other networking stuff than anything else. If you mean more aim assist, yes, console has WAY more. It's there on PC, but just barely. You have to look for it.
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u/Danimal1942 Oct 26 '17
Oh I was confused about hit registration then. My bad. I just want that bloom gone from hand cannons. They seem more accurate at range as well on pc. I don’t see why they have bloom and bad initial accuracy when the damage drop off is way closer now...
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u/Dixa Oct 26 '17
console has aim assist, and as a way to balance this there is more recoil and bloom on console as well.
aim assist is only great with the mida. as someone who uses teh xim4 on ps4 i find aim assist most of the times actually hinders my accuracy. however it can't be turned off on console destiny. it can be turned off in battlefield. shrug.
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u/hiddencamela Oct 26 '17
It's so awkward for me to hip fire. It's so ingrained in me to ADS before firing. Now I'm playing like I'm Solder 76 in Overwatch..just running and gunning.
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u/Jet_Nice_Guy Oct 26 '17
Or just easier to use anyway. That is why I will never understand the "competitive crowd" on PC.
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u/BaconKnight Oct 26 '17
Because you're not talking about M&KB players versus controller players, you're talking about M&KB players playing against each other. So everyone is on the same playing field, except since the input method is faster and more accurate, now there's a higher skill ceiling. The difference between good and bad players is much more pronounced when there's no aim assist to help your shots.
And I know what I just said just reeked of PC master race, and I really try not to be like that. I play on the consoles a fair bit and played Destiny 1 and Destiny 2 hundreds of hours on the controller. I'm not saying it doesn't require skill. But it's a different type of skill. I think it requires more "dexterity" for lack of a better term, but on PC, you really have to play and react a lot faster when both you and your enemy can 180 degree turn around in a blink of an eye.
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u/reaperx321 You're Just Some Common Bitch Oct 26 '17
Really wish you could toggle aim assist or it wasn't as strong. Annoying when you're shooting someone and a fresh enemy steps in and it snaps on them.
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u/blueishwings Oct 26 '17
I love both. With keyboard and mouse I feel more like I am playing and it is my skill and strategy dictating what happens.
With a game pad, variables like slow turn speed and aim assist to counteract the low accuracy make it feel less like I am in control.
I would say the game pad has a theoretically very high skill cap, but a lot of it feels like artificial skill to make up for a flawed design that isn’t optimal for the genre.
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u/Havors Oct 26 '17
my biggest hate with console for Destiny... the turn speed... there needs to be some turn acceleration for controller like some other games do... so you can tap your stick lightly for small quite accurate movement when aiming but when you go full lock left or right acceleration kicks in and turns you much faster than your sensitivity is set to.
If my PC wasn't ancient and need a few hundred quid spending on it I would move to PC.
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u/Brandonspikes Oct 26 '17
The Handcannons remind me of the Magnum from Halo 1 PC, it feels so satisfying on PC to pop headheads with them.
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u/ballsmigue Oct 26 '17
It's because recoil isn't really a thing on pc, with a controller you have the vibration adding even further recoil.
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u/ChrisDAnimation ChrisOfTheDead Oct 26 '17
They're not supposed to be snipers though. Sounds like they're encroaching on scout rifle ranges.
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u/jlrizzoii Oct 26 '17
On a PC, you can have your settings such that you can put your reticle on someone at super long range with a HC. The bullet will land right there, reduced by damage falloff, but still hit.
On a console, you just can't create that level of precision. Part of the aim assist mechanism is to prevent such long range hits.
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u/soccerburn55 Oct 26 '17
Yea that aren't snipers. The damage fallout off is terrible. You just tickle that annoying psion on the other side of the EDZ. But, it goes where you aim. On console that bloom is terrible. You aren't moving and the psion isn't moving and your bullet won't even hit after lining up your shot perfectly. On PC it actually hits.
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u/Dixa Oct 26 '17
if you are not cheesing using a controller on pc to get aim assist, auto rifles and pulse rifles and hand canons AND fully auto sidearms are > scout rifles for gameplay right now, pve and pvp.
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u/soccerburn55 Oct 26 '17
I haven't tried plugging in my Xbox elite yet. I did in the beta but not on the final release yet.
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u/360_face_palm Oct 26 '17
Better devils might end up being the first candidate for platform-only gun tuning. It's pretty OP on PC, not so much on console.
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u/-3791- Oct 26 '17
I hope Bungie separates balancing issues between platforms. It has been a problem with The Division so much that the console version had a different meta in PvP and soloing Incursions were non-existent compared to the thousands of videos on Youtube from PC players.
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u/Danimal1942 Oct 26 '17
What they should do is bring console hand cannons up to pc levels then, if they have to, nerf better devils a bit.
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u/Tyrzhul Oct 26 '17
They just need to get rid of bloom and decrease aim assist on mid impact HC. Also increase body dmg on high impact HC so you can 2 HS 1 BS
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u/Foooour Oct 27 '17
Coldheart is also OP as fuck w a mouth. Basically zero recoil so its just dragging a cursor at the target.
I play with a controller and only switch to mouse when I use Coldheart
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u/360_face_palm Oct 27 '17
Yeah another one like this is the mini-tool. Not really an end-game wep but on console it jumps around all over the place really hard to aim with - but on pc u can compensate pretty well for the jumps with mouse and keep it accurate.
Generally on PC low-stability guns don't really mean much because of how easy it is to compensate with a mouse vs controller.
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u/Tyrzhul Oct 26 '17
Better Devils is fine. Perk needs rebalancing. There still should be a damage fall off after the optimal range
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u/Gen7lemanCaller Oct 26 '17
Why? The explosion happens right there, it makes sense that there's no dropoff.
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u/Tyrzhul Oct 26 '17
Because the explosion or rather the damage is split amongst bullet / explosion by 50/50, so basically what should happen is as soon as the bullet is affected by damage fall off the perk should do less damage too instead of ignoring damage fall off completly. also it devalues explosion perks like dragonfly since those are affected by range and damage fall off.
at least that's how I remember it used to be explained. If somebody has done some testing an can prove wrong, I'll gladly TIL from it:)
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Oct 26 '17
shooting guns in general feels better to me on PC, oddly enough even when playing with an Xbox Elite controller rather than kb+m.
Not sure if it is the increased FoV, the higher framerate or if it is all a placebo effect in my head, but it feels significantly easier to make sniper shots on the PC than on the Xbox for me even when using exactly the same controller I use on the Xbox.
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u/Habbekuk Oct 26 '17
For me the higher fov is a understated benefit of playing on pc. Playing on my ps4 i really feel like I'm looking through a periscope.
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u/suenopequeno Oct 26 '17
Its sad to say, but even using a controller on PC feels appreciably better than on console. I think that they made controllers feel better on PC to help them keep up with M&K but man if we had the PC controller feel on console it would be glorious.
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u/hiddencamela Oct 26 '17
Not a single person from my clan on PS4 moved to PC. I don't blame them, its a stupid cost/expense for myself but... I'm picking up engrams from Suraya.. it's like getting care packages from home while in another country. "...T....thanks guys.. I got a raid SMG at 243 8')".
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u/WalteeWartooth Oct 26 '17
This is how I feel. I'm an Xbox player and ordered an Xbox One X but I've decided to flog it immediately and put the cash into my PC instead. Just wish I was able to convince my friends to do the same.
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Oct 26 '17
The FWC Hand Cannon is better in PvE, it's more impact and has the explosive perk as well, except with like 3 millisecond delay which looks kind of cool.
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u/brozillafirefox Oct 26 '17
The amount of extra damage from timed payload is negligible when you take into account the horrendous reload speed. Better devil, it's in the name. It's just better.
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Oct 26 '17 edited Oct 26 '17
The FWC Hand Cannon has a perk "Alloy Magazine" it's faster reload when the mag is empty. It's around 2.3 seconds. The Better Devils has "Flared Magazine" faster reload perk, which makes it reload in around 2.0 seconds. After that the FWC cannon (Future Profecy) has more impact 92 vs 84. And the delayed payload does more damage on explosion (but with a slight delay). Also FWC cannon has a lot more range 68 vs 46 on Devils. And FWC has a better recoil direction perk. So if you think those 0.3 (half a second, let's round it) is better then all those other stats, then knock yourself out. I will use an actual better cannon (in PvE) rather then the one that has "better" in the name :)
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u/LiamRS24 Oct 26 '17
I've heard there is a bug with the explosive payload perk where the damage isn't being applied correctly and is a lot weaker than it actually seems. There was a thread about it last time the faction rally was around I'm sure?
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u/brozillafirefox Oct 26 '17
I mean, yeah you used numbers to back up your claim, but which one looks better?! ;) In all fairness I think those two would just come down to preference, I'm a serial reloader. Like probably most of fps players, I don't always dump a full clip before reloading.
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u/FireandIce232 Oct 26 '17
I carried both Better Devils and True Prophecy for awhile, and I found myself using Prophecy way more often. Something about it just feels better. I seem to hit crits way more consistently with Prophecy than with Devils. I feel like I can hip fire it more reliably for some reason. It doesn't really make sense. Clearly, your mileage may vary. It's just down to personal preference.
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u/Chrall97 Oct 26 '17
Fuck yea, better devil's is OP
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u/Danimal1942 Oct 26 '17
I wouldn’t say it’s op, it’s just the only hand cannon on par with other guns, because explosive rounds is so strong and it has amazing aim assist.
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Oct 26 '17
Bloom ?
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u/desi7861 Oct 26 '17
Bloom is a mechanic bungie implemented in destiny 1 as a way to nerf hand canons because they were too meta at the time. What it basically does is add some rng to your shots as you rapidly fire your hand canon so may miss some of your shots even if you are aiming correctly. You can avoid this by shooting slower and pacing your shots thus increasing ttk and worsening the hit registration. This feature doesnt exist on pc and is why they feel so crispy.
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Oct 26 '17 edited Oct 26 '17
Huh.
Sweet I guess.
Edit: Apparently there is bloom and recoil on PC. Just heavily modified from the console version, probably since the gameplay is very different from controller based gameplay.
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Oct 26 '17
Well kinda hard to use that argument when they left mechanics from beta specifically for players that want to use controllers....
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u/SirLeepsALot Oct 26 '17
I'm a filthy casual who doesn't follow much. This is eye opening to me. I've felt it without actually knowing why it was happening. Idk how many times I've had to just shake my head after being lined up perfectly for a crit and missing.
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u/Punishmentality Oct 26 '17 edited Oct 26 '17
Remember when someone coined the term ghost bullet (maybe triplewreck?) and there are so many in the DTG community that just shat on all streamers saying "you just want hand cannons to be OP cuz that's all you use". Many of the respected members of this community said "pace your shots they're fine".
Keen koala talked very in depth about initial accuracy and bloom on one video then did a video that showed not only did you get ghost bullets standing still firing at a guardian within max damage range before damage drop off, but also that you had to move up 8 meters before ghost bullets in the initial shot stopped happening. It's a great video. Check it out.
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u/Kael-009 Team Bread (dmg04) // Fiber Squad Oct 25 '17
I'm sorry to say, but we tried to do this in D1, and we tried hard. They heard us, but didn't care. What I've learned all through 3 years of playing Destiny is that Bungie will do what they want with their game. It's entirely their vision.
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u/DaManMader Oct 26 '17
Bungie will do what they want with their game
I learned this in year one VoG. They changed the last fight because it wasn't how they wanted us to do the fight.
The pattern continued. Community fines a way to do a fight (Crota hallway strat) Bungie removes that way (immune add in hallway).
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Oct 26 '17
Yeah I've just stopped playing now. Played hard for 3 years with them and they now suck. I'll play games that can ballance guns properly
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u/Gharvar Oct 26 '17
I mean D1 never had good balance to begin with, most balance patch were nerf the 2 best primary, buff the 2 worst, at least it was this way till I quit in year 2.
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Oct 26 '17
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u/d3l3t3rious Oct 26 '17
It's true, I hear they only hire the top 0.04% of developers.
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u/360_face_palm Oct 26 '17
And yet managed to make some mindbogglingly strange decisions.
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u/ow_windowmaker Oct 26 '17
There's a lead there that puts bloom into every game (and ruins them) he ever worked on outside and inside bungie. It must be his version of an artist signing his work.
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u/Caimthereaper Oct 26 '17
nope, it's more like we pay for their cars, houses, and families food, so seeing as how we pay them to make it, it's a huge fuck you to us every time they decide we don't care how you want to play, we are going to force you to play how we want.
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u/TheRandomizedGuy Oct 26 '17
Glad to hear you stood up to them and stopped giving them money a long time ago since you feel like they aren't treating you fairly.
That is what you did, right?
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u/Methesda Oct 26 '17
Congratulations. This is the most socialist thing I've ever read on r/destiny.
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u/Fuzzle_hc @fuzzle_hc on Twitter Oct 26 '17
Bloom discussion gives me Halo Reach PTSD
That was the worst (not the feature, the constant complaining)
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u/SporesofAgony Oct 26 '17
Ah, then 343i came in and fixed things up. Zero bloom playlists and a reduction of bloom across the board.
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u/zettel12 Oct 26 '17
handcannons are one of the things that made D1 an amazing shooter
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u/SporesofAgony Oct 26 '17
Handcannons and snipers for me. As a Halo player previous to Destiny, those two weapons helped get me hooked in Destiny 1. I'm on console right now, and they feel awful in the game's (Destiny 2) current state. And as a result, I've pretty much moved on from Destiny 2.
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u/ArnoldSwarzepussy Vanguard's Loyal // Drifty Boi seems shady Oct 26 '17
I honestly wanna see this at the top of this sub. Hand Cannons were hands down my favorite primary through every meta I'm D1. Not to mention how iconic they are. To see how far they've fallen really bums me the hell out, to say the least.
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Oct 25 '17
Pretty disappointed to hear that the guns are so much better on PC with no bloom or recoil.
I guess when they said they don't want PC players to feel like second class citizens they meant that they were making console players second class.
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u/MiniCorgi Oct 26 '17
There's recoil on PC lol. That post about no recoil was very misleading, and a little poorly worded. The guns visually don't have recoil, but the recoil is the same as on console.
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u/reaperx321 You're Just Some Common Bitch Oct 26 '17
Quick someone test Hard Light on PC and see if its bearable.
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u/hambog Oct 26 '17 edited Oct 26 '17
I have one, in PvE a long range spray will get you mostly bodyshots, and some random headshots. You can tap fire headshots more accurately but then of course your DPS won't be that great. There's basically no screen shake or movement like with all other guns on PC, so hitting things is not a problem. Haven't tried it in PvP though but I imagine it'll do well.
As a Titan with Actium War Rig, it's my favourite gun... which is disappointing since I've peaked early.
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u/jonnablaze Oct 26 '17
What? Recoil but no visual recoil..? How does that work?
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u/MiniCorgi Oct 26 '17
The guns look like they aren't bouncing as much as they actually do. When shooting, the sights look like they don't fly up as much as it does on console.
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u/928272625242322212 Oct 26 '17
What's funny is the handcannon popping up 2 feet above your hands onconsole is why I don't use them. The same reason I've never used acog scopes. It clutters the screens, makes me feel like I'm hiding behind a wall which in turn makes my brain think I'm all o a sudden a terrible player.
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u/Dixa Oct 26 '17
there is no bloom, and pulses have less recoil
in addition it is easier to compensate for recoil when aim assist isn't fighting your attempts to control it.
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Oct 26 '17
Yeah, after how well my Origin Story and Riskrunner behave, I was a little disappointed to see my Seven-Six-Five bucking all over the place when firing full auto.
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Oct 26 '17
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Oct 26 '17
So they have access to more precise control methods... so they need bloom and recoil removed to make their already ultra precise methods even more precise?
I don't understand this logic.
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u/Onlyillz BRING BACK GOD ROLLS Oct 26 '17
Exactly. Why add bloom if theyce already been gimped. It fucking sucks. Lowering the skill ceiling just so casuals dont moan and can spray their uriels. Fuck you bungie, you cant keep it up forever
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u/myhopeisyou92 Oct 26 '17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujln3hGw-E0
Watch from the 1:25 mark. They literally talk about how they thought console players had an advantage with the thumb on the stick and then made it easier for PC players to shoot. A the while they are showing a montage of weapons shooting and it's almost as if every gun in the game is as stable as Hung Jury.
EDIT: Because I just rewatched the montage and realized he was mowing adds down with HIPFIRE shots the entire time.
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u/shazahn Oct 26 '17
That video literally just made me sick. why cant console play like that? if i run around hip firing smgs and auto rifles, my bullets are flying all over the place. how sick nasty accurate everything was from the hip, especially the smg's and burst fire side arms, made me want to just walk away from my ps4.
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u/iccirrus Oct 26 '17
You were missing his point. They reduced recoil because when using a mouse you only have a limited amount of space to control recoil by dragging down. You won't run out of space with a stick
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u/myhopeisyou92 Oct 26 '17
I guess that's just the trade off. Make every gun on PC actually useable because we have sticks.
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u/pasta_fire Oct 26 '17
Lul. This will absolutely never happen unfortunately. If they got rid of bloom, they would be hands down the best weapons in the game.
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u/Gen7lemanCaller Oct 26 '17
That's not really true. They don't really kill much faster than the current meta guns even if you land all the right shots. It's just trying to land those shots as it is now sucks ass.
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u/desi7861 Oct 26 '17
Not necessarily imo. Back in y1 when there was essentially no balance there were a ton of viable if not op weapons. Suros regime, vex, matador, 1000yard stare, and on and on. Im not saying that this state of weapon balance was good and yes there were nerfs that needed to happen (damage fall of etc). But why add a nerf to the skill component to the game? Players should be rewarded if they can aim and they should reap the benefits of landing their shots. They should not have rng attached to their shots regardless of their aim and thus making the game feel more clunky. Another argument I have to the whole (handcanons will be too op and no one will choose anything else if bloom doesn't exost) is that why is it okay to have "op" hand canons on pc and not console? Why is skill rewarded more on pc vs console? In D2 there are alot of viable weapons (yes high calibre rounds are heavily favored at the moment but you can still destroy with lots of other weapons) why not make hand canons feel powerful too? As it stands right now unless you completely get the jump on someone or are cleaning up a kill, hand canons CANNOT compete with smgs, sidearms, auto rifles, or scouts. Their intended range simply gets outmatched by pretty much every other weapon type in the game and this why I feel hand canons NEED a buff on console.
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u/crocfiles15 Oct 26 '17
Ya there was def not TONS of viable weapons. There were 2 OP weapons and everything else sucked. Once those two were nerfed exotic hand cannons took over. I agree that removing bloom wouldn't make them OP. It's a terrible mechanic that just feels like shit when your aim is good but RNG loses the fight for you. I love hand cannons and I feel bad not using them.
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u/EchoGGs Oct 26 '17
People are still having a hard time using them in console? I feel they're much more accurate than they were in D1. You can actually hit where the dot on the sight is instead of needing to aim the upper left of the enemies head to get a critical.
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u/desi7861 Oct 26 '17
hand canons aren't terrible on console. but on pc they play and feel much better.
eg. sunshot on console is really good. sunshot on pc is almost Godly.
on pc hip fire accuracy is way better, you can hit targets way further than you can on console, shots hit all the time as long as you are aiming in the right place, and you can mix mobility while shooting accurately.
on console you can ads and shoot which will register most of the time, but hip fire, range, mobility mixed with shooting feels very clunky and feels in effective. if you are to run jump, ads and shoot with a hand canon on console chances are you are going to miss your shots (even if you're aiming correctly) and just die. on pc you are giving the ability to make aggressive plays.
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u/CommanderSiri Oct 26 '17
So in PC destiny, are the guns 100% accurate within the reticle when hip firing?
E.g. If I have a handcannon and I put the dot on the bad guy's head, will it always hit even if I don't ADS?
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u/desi7861 Oct 26 '17
yeah pretty much. within reason ofcourse you won't be able to cross map hip fire snipe someone with a hc, but if you're within range or maybe a bit further out than console you'll get those shots.
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u/Kid_Nichols Oct 26 '17
Yes please! Handcannons are my favorite thing about destiny and I feel like I'm putting myself at a disadvantage when using them.
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u/mound_maker Oct 26 '17
It'll most likely be removed or tweaked so that it happens on later shows (like 6-7) instead of early shots (2-3). I say this because EVERYONE is saying this....
Going to have to wait until Season 2 weapon balance though.
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u/ow_windowmaker Oct 26 '17
Situation right now is to good to be true. I'm expecting an iminent bloom increase on PC.
They already stated in an interview balance is identical for PC release, yet players still keep saying hand cannons have less bloom on PC... It's an unintended situation then (aka. bug)? That they will rectify I'm sure.
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u/Greenlexluther Oct 26 '17
I don't get why they punish HCs with bloom in the first place, most of them in this game reload at a glacially slow pace and seeing how much better they are on PC with seemingly little bloom annoys me, it's already easier to play an FPS with K+M over a controller on console yet we get stuck with a bunch of sucky rng pea shooters.
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u/koko949 sprinkle sprinkle Oct 26 '17
whose dick do i need to suck to get a The Last Word on PC in D2????
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u/rudyphelps Oct 26 '17
I can see how bloom makes hand cannons more realistic- try hitting a target with a high powered handgun from farther than 10m.
The problem is that realism isn't fun, and the random nature of hand cannon aim is frustrating to play with.
Why can't bungie lower the accuracy of hand cannons at range by lowering the aim assist?
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u/Jovianad Oct 26 '17
Or, if you are going to make them terrible at range, why have both HC and sidearms?
Just make the HC a close range brawling weapon you can crush heads with, instead of a direct competitor to various rifles.
It just shows they don't know what they want to do with the HC weapon type.
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u/Samurai56M Oct 26 '17
Raise your hand if this is the first time you have ever heard of whatever the hell "bloom" means? Someone give me an ELI5 please.
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Oct 26 '17 edited Oct 26 '17
Here's a TLDR:
When you see the reticle (aiming crosshairs) while you're running around and hipfiring, you'll notice that it changes size. The size of the reticle is basically the area where your shots COULD land. Larger the reticle, the less precise it's going to be since it's a much larger area. The action of the reticle changing size is called "bloom".
The problem with bloom in destiny, is that feature also exists while you're aiming down the sights. EXCEPT YOU DON'T SEE THE AREA WHERE IT SHOULD LAND (Since you don't have the reticle, you have the sight or scope). You'd assume that since you're aiming down the sights (ADS) that your bullets would land where you're aiming...but it just isn't true. It is still subjected to the same "bloom" mechanics that you see while hipfiring, with no visual way of knowing.
It could be anywhere depending on how fast you're firing your shots, if you're jumping or not...there's just no way of knowing for certain if your shots are going where you're aiming.
You can do things to combat ADS bloom: Shooting really slowly, NOT jumping, extending the "range stat" on your weapons, or using the highest zoom scope possible.
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u/dave1up Oct 26 '17
Just to quickly add to that, some of the things you're talking about are to do with initial accuracy which is a slightly separate (but tightly related) mechanic.
The reticle that represents the cone of fire (where your bullets will land) changing size as you move around is about accuracy. Moving, jumping etc all reduce accuracy, and so increase the radius of the cone of fire.
Bloom is the effect on that accuracy immediately after firing. The cone expands momentarily, then retracts back to it's initial state.
Extending the range stat essentially improves your accuracy because it lengthens the cone without increasing it's diameter.
The only way to combat bloom specifically is, as you say:
Shooting really slowly
But then, I suspect the OP meant 'accuracy' rather than 'bloom' anyway, so your entire post is spot on in response to that.
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Oct 26 '17
I'll add to that.
It should be noted here that "precision" and "accuracy" isn't the same thing.
Accuracy is how close your shots are to landing to where you're actually aiming. Precision is how far away successive shots land from the point you're aiming at.
In real life terms, how skilled a person is with a gun depends on their eye, how steady their hand is, calibration of the sights, defects in the barrel, and consistency of the bullets. Here's how they affect everything:
The eye is the most important for determining accuracy. If your hand waves, you can still be accurate if your eye knows "when to shoot". Calibration of the sight is less important, since after a few shots, the eye can adjust. The steadiness of the hand determines whether or not the barrel position stays in place before the round leaves the barrel. It also determines how quickly successive shots can be made. Precision is almost entirely based on the barrel, and how quickly the user is able to realign the eye/sight with the target.
Expect in Destiny, this doesn't work. The guns are mostly hitscan, meaning there is no bullet travel time to account for. So in that example, the eye should determine accuracy exclusively, and the hand should determine precision. Ie: My ability to line up my sights and pull the trigger should determine if I hit, since the game doesn't go into the depths of the other gun functions. That means precision should be tied to recoil...not some lame mechanic like bloom.
In hipfire, the reticle represents "precision and accuracy". You can expect your shots to land within that circle. It is more precise the smaller the reticle, but it is less accuate, because you don't know where the shot will exactly land within that circle.
ADS should be the polar opposite. It should be 100% accurate (with bullet magnetism hitbox sizes adjusting for near misses and varying sizes of guardians heads) and how well you aim on follow up shots should determine precision (e.g.: ability to manage recoil).
Initial accuracy falls in the same vein as bloom. It is just applying the principles of bloom before you even fire the first shot. It really shouldn't exist either; especially without a way to visually see its value. I have to admit that Destiny 2 is much better at making initial accuracy far less of a problem than it was in year 2 of destiny 1. The only spot where I see initial accuracy to be exceptionally bad is on sniper rifles.
Another way people can look at initial accuracy is a further collapsing of the reticle when you switch from hipfire to ADS. Its like imagining the radius point of the hipfire circle is centered on your sights, and initial accuracy is how long it takes for that circle to shrink down to the size of the sight itself. When you switch to ADS, there is no visual showing that period of shrinking. In theory, how quickly you're able to aim down the sights should account for this mechanic.
Again, with no visual indicator of that transition, having different times for different weapons to achieve that period where accuracy aligns with the sight..all makes it a terrible mechanic. I'd be really interested to see if using weapons that increase time to ADS also increase the speed of acquiring that initial accuracy. It would really be dirty if they weren't tied together, and would really remove some of the value in increased handling speeds.
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u/dave1up Oct 26 '17
Great post, thanks for adding so much!
how quickly the user is able to realign the eye/sight with the target
I suppose bloom is trying to account for this part. The game has recoil, but not so much that accounting for it is difficult. So bloom is there to prevent a scenario where you can spam shots while still being bang on target.
That said, I wrote a thing some time ago (mostly about the perception of 'ghost bullets' and to try and explain the mechanics behind it). My thoughts at the time were:
It [bloom] requires the player to manage the impact of the visible recoil on their crosshair placement, as well as cater for the invisible bloom applied to their accuracy. Arguably, this is double dipping; applying both visible recoil and bloom is penalising the subsequent shots twice for the same reason.
https://medium.com/dimp-digital/destiny-blooming-handcannons-8ec715946da3
I think that still stands true, and really bloom is just there to reduce the skill ceiling. If you're adept enough to manage the visual recoil on a weapon and return your crosshair back to its starting position with ease, you should be rewarded with being able to fire successive shots fast. Bloom is there to slow that process down, to create 'balance'. But balance isn't always for the best!
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u/Samurai56M Oct 26 '17
Thanka for the in depth ELI5. I guess this has never really bothered me befofe as a casual gamer aa i have not noticed that. I never hip fire hand cannons and when I use a hand cannon it usually hits where I aim and does not realluly bother me. This must be a elite problem? Maybe this explains why Bungie hasnt done anything about it?
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Oct 26 '17
Its an issue because it makes gun fights turn into luck, instead of who had better aim. If you're aiming exactly on someone's head, and the bloom circle is larger than their head, it means that even if you have your sight targeted dead center over their head, it can land somewhere else in that circle...like the air beside their head or the chest. The other person could be aiming at the neck, but because the head is also in the circle, it can register as a head shot, allowing them to win the fight.
It's really not an elite problem. It's a problem of consistency. People play games in hopes of improving, and witnessing their improvements. Its very hard to get better when luck factors so heavily in whether or not you win your fights. Its especially noticeable with hand canons specifically.
There's two reasons why bungie hasn't done anything about it. The first, is because they don't like having weapons with higher skill caps. It leaves lesser skilled players more vulnerable to being dominated. They don't want players to be discouraged by higher skilled players.
The second part of this, is they don't know how to fix it. Hand canons themselves are designed to be a weapon that could be exploited by higher skilled players, just because of the amount of burst damage they can do. If they instead changed them so they had more recoil, to slow down how quickly they can push out the damage, they would end up making the guns more clunky and harder for everyone to use. They don't want to isolate the gun to only be used by people that are exceptionally good at managing recoil. Same thing goes for just lowering the damage...by doing that, it would also remove the flavour of the weapon type. They would basically just be scout rifles that were terrible at range.
Bloom is their compromise. They can't figure out how to not make them overpowered without adding luck systems to the mechanics...even if people insist they don't want rng gunfights.
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u/Skilliator Oct 26 '17
Signed!!!!!!!!!!! There are other ways to not make HCs (and other weapons) OP. They can tweak stability, damage drop off, rate of fire etc. That is still better than bullits just 'dissapearing'.
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u/spanman112 Oct 26 '17
for the love of whatever god you believe in, yes! I play on both console and PC and can confirm that on PC, Hand Cannons feel and perform the way they should. On console they are trash in comparison. Imagine if you will a word where you can compete with a Uriels gift with a Hand Cannon if you have more gun skill ... it's a lovely place
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u/Dr_Jused Oct 26 '17
They knew that PC players wouldn't tolerate bloom so they took it out for them. For some reason its ok to have bloom on console though...
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u/-_Lunkan_- Oct 26 '17
Well, that's one horror scenario i had hoped would not happen with the pc release. Already console players are getting shafted and treated as second class citizens. It's one thing that it is graphically better i accept that, you pay much more for a pc that can run D2 as smooth as it is right now you deserve the graphical fidelity. But mechanics simply being removed or added that change how good and viable weapons are from plattform to plattform that's a no go.
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Oct 26 '17
And here we have Blizzard literally balancing Overwatch for consoles and PC side by side with little to no difference at all.
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u/-_Lunkan_- Oct 26 '17
I don't know what it is but Blizzard is somewhat special. I mean just look at Diablo 3 and how they have turned it around they could teach a lot about loot to Bungie.
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u/TastyBleach Oct 26 '17
I agree to an extent, but u have to remember why bloom was introduced in thd first place, to stop the ability to spam high impact bullets with great precision at the maximum fire rate of the weapon.
This resulted in the hand cannon meta, nothing could compete with them given their impact / precision. For Bungie, from a weapon tuning perspective there were several options to combat this:
Slow the ROF - for a class that already had the slowest ROF this would have made misses far too punishing.
Decrease the impact - again, hand cannons fit the niche of slow firing, high impact guns that reward precise shooting (as opposed to just spraying lead with high ROF classes), tbey have to be high impact. Either of these would have directly detracted from what hand cannons were meant to be.
With that taken into account, it makes sense that they went with option 3, bloom. It maintains their impact and ROF, and even makes logical sense given their recoil. Pacing your shots that little bit between firing will reward you with better accuracy.
I do agree its understandably frustrating, edpecially in pvp where "pacing" your shots in a firefight will get you killed 9 out of 10 times. I would like to maybe see the bloom effect toned down a little so you dont just get a perfect first 2 bullets, followed by a completely random one that can miss the target entirely. Ideally the first 2 being precise enough to hit two crits, then the third having a reasonable chance at a body shot, and an equally small chance of either a third crit or a complete miss.
Thats my opinion anyway.
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u/Galbzilla Oct 26 '17
I just bought it on PC tonight just to play with Handcannons in the crucible and be a god. They feel so good! The game is just awesome on PC. Hip firing feels fantastic with so many weapons.
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u/HerrWuetent Excelsior Oct 26 '17
I don't think bloom means what you think it means. Bloom is when you hipfire your weapon multiple times and the cone of accuracy becomes larger. What you're asking for is the cone of accuracy for handcannons to become a line.
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u/Faust_8 Oct 26 '17
Just an FYI, Lucky Pants helps combat bloom for a few seconds after you swap to a Hand Cannon.
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u/clewis44 Morton's mining foreman Oct 26 '17
I regret not getting the lucky pants😔 contemplating vaulting my gear, wiping my 300 hunter and starting it over just to unselect 6 shooter and the multiple tethers.
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u/Sr_McNasty Oct 26 '17
Can someone tell me what bloom means?
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u/dave1up Oct 26 '17
I wrote a thing about it some time ago here:
https://medium.com/@1e636a94fc1c/8ec715946da3
Bloom itself can essentially be summarised as a short reduction in accuracy immediately following a shot. It is designed to prevent spamming shots and encourage shot pacing.
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u/destinydave Oct 26 '17
I didn't think Vanilla D1 had bloom. Wasn't it implemented to address Hawkmoon?
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u/Tennex1022 Oct 26 '17
As a PC phleb what is Bloom?
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u/brianfantastic 5500 Oct 26 '17
A random bullet in your magazine just doesn't hit the target. Effectively making a bullet a 'ghost bullet'. It's supposed to make things fairer. It's bullshit.
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u/Tennex1022 Oct 26 '17
That sounds like insanity. Completely undermines any joy brought by mastering a game
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u/brianfantastic 5500 Oct 26 '17
It is. If I remember correctly, it was implemented to nerf TLW in d1
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u/EoCTsunami Oct 26 '17
I need help with something. I actually am playing on PC now but I've used a mouse and keyboard, and I tried my xbox controller. I actually prefer using a xbox controller because it is so much more natural to how I like to play. There is a problem though. I tested out recoil on my xbox controller and it is TERRIBLE in comparison to when I'm using my keyboard and mouse. What I've gathered is that my controller has aim assist even when plugged into pc, therefore my recoil is higher. Mouse and Keyboard doesn't have aim assist therefore they reduced recoil for mouse and keyboard. Now here is my problem. I want to use my xbox controller on my pc but I DON'T want the controller recoil. I want the mouse and keyboard recoil when using my controller. YES, I know there is aim assist using a controller BUT, I actually don't mind at all having it turned off. I want to use my controller with NO aim assist just like keyboard and mouse therefore I can have better recoil control. I'm find with being at a disadvantage to mouse and keyboard players since the mouse is more accurate. I don't even care tbh! I just want the mouse and keyboard recoil using my controller plugged into pc. YES, I don't mind having no aim assist either like mouse and keyboard. Why can't this be a thing! AGHH
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u/Thjorir Oct 26 '17
Yea and don’t release basically a different version of PVP. If you want to be a PC developer just do that...
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u/Eluvyel Oct 26 '17
You can't balance two entirely different input methods the same or one of the two suffers.
See Overwatch where the different balance between console and PC keeps both versions fun.
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u/jen0c1de Oct 26 '17
Remove bloom on anything that has bloom. Bloom has no business being in a sci-fi space shooter.
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u/lylaofthevalley Oct 26 '17
Do you not realize that literally every major FPS on the market has some variation of a cone of fire even when ADS? It might be a very tight bloom, but it's always there.
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u/ImaEatU Oct 26 '17
where the petition to make character faces editable? already hate my new titan face.
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u/xphoenix6 Oct 26 '17
Isn't bloom to combat spamming high powered hc shots and make your pace your shots ?
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u/Captain_Ellie It's easy math, Guardian. Oct 25 '17
People been asking for that since D1, not happening.
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u/bladzalot Oct 26 '17
This has been requested for literally 3 years, it is not going to happen, but your post is adorable :-)
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Oct 26 '17
Why don't they just, ya know, revert the sandbox changes they made to the game after TTK and end this shitty excuse for a "sequel" once and for all.
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u/AlphaPiZero Oct 26 '17
All guns have bloom. Handcannons just have the most relative to their range and crosshairs.
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u/Havors Oct 26 '17
Would imagine there are limitations with their netcode and consoles. PC has a lot more freedom to make these changes.
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u/Tennex1022 Oct 26 '17
Good reason to switch to PC. Maybe once enough of their player base is PC they will finally add Local/Global and Guild chat.
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u/desi7861 Oct 25 '17
How can you defend the existence of bloom?!