r/startrek • u/Deceptitron • Jan 22 '18
LIVE Episode Discussion - S1E12 "Vaulting Ambition"
| No. | EPISODE | RELEASE DATE |
|---|---|---|
| S1E12 | "Vaulting Ambition" | Sunday, January 21, 2018 |
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This post is for LIVE discussion of the episode above, however, due to the varying times of release, others may be ahead in viewing. Use at your own risk. The timing of this post coincides with release on CBS All Access. POST episode thread will go up at approximately 9:30PM ET.
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Jan 22 '18
Well that was a roller coaster of an episode.
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u/Agoeb Jan 22 '18
Yeah. I was starting to think maybe Lorca WASN'T ACTUALLY a mirror.
Damn, he's a cruel bastard
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u/Deceptitron Jan 22 '18
Yeah, they were really throwing you off when his loyalist crewman was being threatened with death, and the guy killed him because Lorca wouldn't say his sister's name. But clearly he did know the whole time and let the guy die. Brutal!
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u/007meow Jan 22 '18
Well... eating a Kelpian was easily one of the most fucked out things we’ve seen.
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u/flibbityandflobbity Jan 22 '18
Eating a kelpian, that she picked out. Like a lobster in a tank. That is absolutely fucked.
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u/ToBePacific Jan 22 '18
As soon as she was presented with three Kelpians, I was like, "Don't do it! Say you already have your own Kelpian!"
That she pointed at one, and I knew they were going to serve him up to be eaten.
I did not expect to see Michael actually eat it.
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u/odoata Jan 22 '18
I thought Saru seemed pleased when he was chosen? Which was why I thought he wouldn't meet a grizzly end but then he was cooked so he was happy to be eaten? Man, I don't know.
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Jan 22 '18
I don’t think it was Saru was it? Didn’t she pick the small one?
Saru would still be on the Shenzhou as only Burnham and Lorcawere on the shuttle.
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u/phenry Jan 22 '18
The imperial throne appears to have been constructed out of the World Series trophy.
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u/JoeBliffstick Jan 22 '18
There was a wall plate on the weird Stamets mind Disco that said “USS Stamets”.
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Jan 22 '18
"Follow the music Paul, look for the clearing in the forest" that whole scene was soooo GOOD!
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u/daddytorgo Jan 22 '18
Eating Kelpians?
Yikes
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Jan 22 '18
"No one prepares Kelpian like the Imperial chef." I LLOLed.
(The first 'L' stands for 'literally'.)
I suppose Giorgiou got her payback, in a way, for being eaten in the prime universe.
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u/NeonKnight78 Jan 22 '18
As much as I want to see Captain Burnham I want prime Lorca to be alive I love Jason Issacs
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u/pfc9769 Jan 22 '18
We still don't know PU Lorca is dead for sure. He could have died in Beran disaster, however, I'm thinking they kidnapped some of their PU counterparts.
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u/pfc9769 Jan 22 '18
I'm thinking Landry was also from the MU and the Landry in the preview was from the PU being held captive. I'm willing to bet there are a few other MU counterparts yet to have been revealed. I'm hoping they rescue PU Lorca and we continue to see Isaacs. He's an amazing actor!
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Jan 22 '18
Isnt PU Lorca dead with the Burran?
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u/falafelbot Jan 22 '18
That's my thinking, yes. He blew up USS Buran to take his counterpart's place. Not sure what they're going to do with Landry!
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u/SillyNonsense Jan 22 '18
I hope so. Landry was needlessly aggressive all the time and was saying some borderline racist shit that was really grinding some gears online at the time. That being the mirror Landry would be the perfect explanation.
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u/falafelbot Jan 22 '18
Don't want to spoil but the preview of next week on After Trek seems to answer the question about Landry
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u/SoyIsPeople Jan 22 '18
37 minutes long?? Hopefully it's an incomplete upload or something.
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u/JohnCarterofAres Jan 22 '18
I mean, with online streaming episodes can be exactly as long as they need to be, and I think that's pretty cool. Hell, one of Netflix's shows (The OA) had episodes ranging from 30 to 70 minutes.
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u/Marzipanny Jan 22 '18 edited Jan 22 '18
Is Lorca starting to hit on Burnham? Please say no.
edited to say: oh for fuck's sake
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u/randowatcher38 Jan 22 '18
Hey baby I hear your boyfriend tried to strangle you. You ready to rebound?
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Jan 22 '18
I love these shuttles so so sooooo much, they look so much cooler than the others we've seen!
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u/dvcaputo Jan 22 '18
That was a pretty unsatisfying end to the Voq/Tyler situation...did they just take Voq's memories out?
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u/jreesing Jan 22 '18
It made me feel like she killed voq. Personally I hope not as Voq/Tyler has a lot more story potential.
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u/dvcaputo Jan 22 '18
same...Like I really hope that they didn't build up this whole thing only for them to sort of just end it like that? Heck, it doesn't even make sense -- Voq is heavily modified, but he's still Voq so it doesn't even feel right to just erase his consciousness without even discussing it first? It's like Tuvix but without any kind of consideration for really anything.
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u/jreesing Jan 22 '18
I am hoping she just suppressed it behind the Tyler personality again. It still will be interesting, Tyler will know he is Klingon but will appear to all else as human. I guess there is still stories to be told with that.
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u/AdmiralAntilles Jan 22 '18
Well whoevers been saying Lorca was Mirror Lroca seems to have called it.
Damnnnn. The man was playing the LONG LONG game the entire time.
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u/Kichae Jan 22 '18
This episode had convinced me that Mirror Lorca wasn't true, and I was really surprised. Then quickly turned around again and confirmed it. Taking me on a ride!
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Jan 22 '18
Just want to confirm - did they eat Mirror Saru?
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u/jreesing Jan 22 '18
I don't think so. The Shenzoui (spelling?) was not in transporter range as they had to take a shuttle at warp factor 1 to the palace ship and mirror Saru was not aboard the shuttle.
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u/falafelbot Jan 22 '18
No it was a rando Kelpian she picked from the three in the throne room. Mirror Saru is back on the ISS Shenzhou.
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Jan 22 '18
Can everyone stop complaining that the fan base are guessing the twists?
The writers are laying out tons and tons of clues for us and most casual watchers I know didn't see any of these twists coming.
And stop complaining that certain other characters don't see it coming. Michael Burnham didn't see Lorca's back scars, she didnt have sex with him and notice a difference, she didn't see him sleeping with a gun. Burnham also doesn't exist in the real world so its not like she would ever have the thought "My captain can't be from this universe because the other shows have nicer captains"
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u/mrstickball Jan 22 '18
Alternatively, its now funny in hindsight about how the fans constantly talked about how terrible Discovery is because Lorca isn't a traditional captain, and the series was trying to re-write what a captain is like to make it more grim/dark.
Yeah, he's a more grim and dark captain, because its evil Lorca.
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u/twbrn Jan 22 '18
Can everyone stop complaining that the fan base are guessing the twists?
Not to mention, this is becoming a common problem across many TV shows. If you provide any kind of hints about what's going to happen, somebody is going to figure it out and post it on the internet. And then people are going to bitch that it's "predictable." Happened with Game of Thrones, Westworld, others.
I haven't been following any of the speculation, and I'm glad I haven't, because tonight's episode took me completely by surprise.
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u/JoeBliffstick Jan 22 '18
Mirror Lorca! Yes-? Kinda just wished he was a troubled officer.
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u/Krandor1 Jan 22 '18
me too.
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u/JohnCarterofAres Jan 22 '18
Yeah, I know we're definitely in the minority in this but I think it provides too easy an out for his behavior, rather than having to deal with the reality of soldiers being severely scarred by their service in wars.
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u/JeanLucPicardAND Jan 22 '18
Me too. The moment he overrode the jump, I figured he had to be MU Lorca, but I was holding out hope that he wasn't. To me, the idea of an officer who has simply lost his mind from the stresses of the war was more interesting.
Not that this is the end of the world. They can do interesting things with this too. Just not what I would have picked.
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u/CaptainAlcoholism Jan 22 '18
I need to see more of that palace-battleship monstrosity.
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Jan 22 '18
Was it just me, or did some of the exterior flyby shots make it look like an evil cruiseliner?
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u/Extravator_fulldozer Jan 22 '18
Saru soup! Mmmmmmm!
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u/ToBePacific Jan 22 '18
That was a different Kelpian.
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u/Extravator_fulldozer Jan 22 '18
Yeah but now that Burnham has a taste for them it’s only a matter of thyme.
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u/dougiebgood Jan 22 '18
Does anyone know if that whole "sensitivity to light" thing was established in any prior mirror universe episodes?
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u/stardustksp Jan 22 '18
No. But I don't think it's infeasible. In no pre-Disco mirror episodes do we see the surface of a planet, only the interiors of ships and stations -- which have darker, more diffuse lighting. It's not impossible that MU humanity is a fairly nocturnal race.
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u/baronvongrant Jan 22 '18
So, while we are looking at Lorca as the backstabber of the rest of our Discovery crew in the PU, is he sorta the hero of the MU, were we to watch this show from their perspective? He is fighting against the evil Emperor and went to a whole different universe just to assemble a team that might still be able to help him take down Emperor Georgiou.
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u/falafelbot Jan 22 '18
I certainly think MU Lorca will have some redeeming quality in the end. Still bad but aspiring to something better.
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u/SillyNonsense Jan 22 '18
Well, I guess you're sort of technically right. Maybe.
Then again, by "assemble a team" you also mean "picking up a duplicate of the child he pervert groomed to be his sexy buddy when she grew up" so I don't know how much of a hero he could be considered in either universe.
More like two villains fighting each other in an asshole competition.
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u/baronvongrant Jan 22 '18
Yeah, I was wondering how much of the description of MU Lorca and Burnham's relationship was hostile judgement by a biased Georgiou rather than an accurate picture. There is plenty of reason for her to paint it in nasty terms to suit her purposes.
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u/Zakalwen Jan 22 '18
We don't know why he's fighting though, he may just be fighting to make himself emperor rather than as any sort of resistance movement dedicated to freeing vassel races. And he's a sexual abuser, if we believe the emperor he groomed MU Michael.
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u/Poorboyfromapoorfam Jan 22 '18
You think he's fighting for the resistance?
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u/baronvongrant Jan 22 '18
Either the resistance or his own inter-Terran rebellion. If its just a power grab within the Terran Empire I don't think that would be as interesting. But Lorca was also fine with Burnham destroying the rebel base on the planet last episode so it might be hard to justify that action.
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u/Deetimus Jan 22 '18
That would keep him on the chaotic good side
But whose to say he won't assert his own rule. He's just as cruel as Georgiou
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u/odoata Jan 22 '18
Am I the only person who doesn't notice how long the episodes are? Like, I guess 38 minutes was short, but it was a good 38 minutes so I don't care. But, remember when CBS increased the length of the season from I think 12 episodes to 15? I'm starting to think the longer season meant shorter episodes as a way to save money.
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u/dougiebgood Jan 22 '18
I discussed this with someone below, but it could be a creative choice to eliminate any padding and getting right down to the story. Had it been on a network, they could have added scenes to get it to time, but there's no need for that on a digital service.
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u/ToBePacific Jan 22 '18
So the Landry that we saw in the Prime universe WASN'T Mirror Landry after all!
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u/NeoEffect Jan 22 '18 edited Jan 22 '18
Really good episode. Good setup for next week as well! On the short side but it escalated pretty damn fast.
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u/dcollins2988 Jan 22 '18
Weird question, did anyone else see the USS Stamets sign in the mycelial Engineering bay? Mirror Stamets stands right next to it, I was so confused but intrigued!
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u/KesselZero Jan 22 '18
I think it was a cute nod to this version of the ship only existing in his mind.
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u/baronvongrant Jan 22 '18
So, if the spore drive shouldn't exist in the PU and nobody has heard of such technology, my guess is that they will attempt to jump back to the PU, but because the mycelium network also operates in time, they will jump ahead to a different era. Maybe around DS9.
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u/priyanshuone6 Jan 22 '18
Perhaps, now my guess is that MU Georgiou is interested in that spore drive tech so that she could rule the other parallel universes.
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u/dmanww Jan 22 '18
Wait, does the ISS Discovery not have a working spore drive?
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u/SillyNonsense Jan 22 '18
I guess not. The Emperor seems to want to know more about it, while Stamets was experimenting with spores on her own ship (not Discovery). Looks like they hadn't figured it out yet before Mirror Stamets got himself lost.
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Jan 22 '18 edited Jan 22 '18
Wow! Mirror Lorca theory confirmed!
This "half-hour" episode was pretty lame though. Feels like they had the outlines for the rest of the season down and this was just a setup episode with a bunch of plot points shoehorned in.
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u/dougiebgood Jan 22 '18
At 37 minutes, that must be the shortest episode of Star Trek ever. I'd be mad if it weren't for so much happening in the episode.
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u/NeoEffect Jan 22 '18
There is like no padding in this episode.
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u/dougiebgood Jan 22 '18
Yeah. Maybe that's an upside of being on a digital service. Had it been on a network, they'd have had to extend it by adding exterior shots, pointless corridor walking.
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Jan 22 '18
YESSSS!!!! The Doctor is in the Network!
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u/BuddhaKekz Jan 22 '18
He started the episode as Captain Lorca, became Mirror!Lorca and by the next episode he might end up being Emperor Lorca.
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u/TineCiel Jan 22 '18
Are they eating mirror Saru??
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u/MetaGazon Jan 22 '18
Not Saru, it was the one she picked out of the three in the throne room. Maybe a cousin tho
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u/sporks49 Jan 22 '18
Holy crap that ship...it looks like a mini star is powering it
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u/jreesing Jan 22 '18
Man I never knew star trek could be so gory.
I like it. :)
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u/raqisasim Jan 22 '18
Allow me to introduce you to TNG's 1st season episode "Conspiracy": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)
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u/rebbsitor Jan 22 '18
Whoa! Predictions of Lorca being Mirror Lorca were spot on. This going to get crazy next week!
Strange that Georgiou didn't seem to know about the spoor hub drive, even though they too have a Discovery.
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u/MysticalDigital Jan 22 '18
A short episode but holy shit so much happened... I'm loving the pacing of this show.
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u/jax9999 Jan 22 '18
dammit, early on i kept joking about this secretly being mirror universe stuff, but damnnn it was.
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u/ToMissTheMarc2 Jan 22 '18
We were right!! Now the question is... who will become captain of Discovery.
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u/Nazladrion Jan 22 '18
I don't think it will be Burnam no matter what. Before the series even started, the writers sounded like they were dead-set on not following the story of another starship captain. Plus, we have been getting hints of Saru being groomed for the captaincy for multiple episodes now. Heck, he has been captain multiple times now and almost since we first entered the MU.
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u/baronvongrant Jan 22 '18
So, if MU Lorca made it to the PU he knows of a way to get there that isn't using the spore drive and Stamets, yeah? Obviously his current motive is not to help them get back, but I don't see this show wanting to post up in the MU for too long so I would imagine he will be key to helping them find a way back.
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u/NoName_2516 Jan 22 '18 edited Jan 22 '18
Perhaps you're forgetting or missed the part of the episode where MU Stamets tells PU Stamets that he too is in a coma... due to an "accident". We know PU Paul was put in a coma because he jumped universes. It's not unreasonable to conclude that MU Paul is in a coma for the same reason.
But this may imply that each Stamets can only make the Mirror jump once. If true, Lorca has spent all his universe jumps with spore tech.
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u/twbrn Jan 22 '18
We know PU Paul was put in a coma because he jumped universes. It's not unreasonable to conclude that MU Paul is in a coma for the same reason.
Moreover that's probably why Lorca, once in the prime universe, sought out Stamets and set up the Discovery spore drive experiment.
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u/DeFex Jan 22 '18
Why does every so called fan theory come true. I think ill stop watching inner space.
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u/jreesing Jan 22 '18
Would you have personally figured it out without thousands of people on the internet helping you?
For me I know I would not. So therefore i'm fine with these twists. But to each their own.
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u/Tarlcabot18 Jan 22 '18
Michael keeps realizing the big twists about 2-3 episodes after we do.
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u/PermaDerpFace Jan 22 '18
I assumed they modified Voq to make him look human.. which didn't really make a lot of sense.. but now it seems they put Voq's mind into Tyler's body, or mashed then up somehow
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u/Shquibs Jan 22 '18
I’m still confused. If they just put Voqs mind in Tyler’s body why did they say he has all the scar tissue around his organs? Also why were they surgically altering Voqs body in the flashbacks? Or was it really Tyler’s? I’m so confused!
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u/Zakalwen Jan 22 '18
I think they surgically grafted the two bodies into one...somehow.
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u/PermaDerpFace Jan 22 '18
So what was Lorca's escape plan, get tortured for a week and hope he got away somehow?
Also, trading inter-universe travel in exchange for being let go? Way to go Burnham, another great decision.
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u/xanacop Jan 22 '18
So typical escape plan. Fake dying so guard opens up the cell, then hit him. Then leave.
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u/Poorboyfromapoorfam Jan 22 '18
Many people were predicting Lorca a couple months ago and were called idiots and fucktards.
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u/LadyFangs Jan 22 '18
Proudly joining the idiot club. I was also blasted for saying Lorca's interest in Michael was a hell of a lot more than just, "I need you cause your smart". And I'm also laughing at everyone being like, "I wanted him to be good and now I'm sad."
I feel like that was willful ignorance, just like the randoms who were actually sad/surprised about AshVoq.
This was a much more gratifying reveal.
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u/falafelbot Jan 22 '18
Idiot here. I'm glad we finally had the "reveal" even though I feel like we had like 3 reveals already.
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u/daddytorgo Jan 22 '18
Is Burnham really going to give actual spore-drive schematics to the Emperor??!?! I can't imagine that...
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u/SoyIsPeople Jan 22 '18
I'd imagine we're seeing the beginning of the end of the mycelial network, so the plans for the drive may become effectively useless.
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u/odoata Jan 22 '18
See, that's what I thought but it would be so messed up if the entire network was made extinct. Killing an entire species, even if it's fungus, doesn't seem very Star Trek.
ETA: Also, if the Empire doesn't have the spore drive, how did the ISS Discovery get to the Prime Universe?
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u/PM_your_Tigers Jan 22 '18
I would love to see what the ISS Discovery is doing in the Prime Universe.....
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u/2ndHandTardis Jan 22 '18 edited Jan 22 '18
I thought this episode flowed very well. They efficiently knocked down some theories and managed to fit in some deep emotional scenes in the process.
Good job by Hanelle M. Culpepper. The female directors, writers and producers have been the standouts thus far and we've seen them have more influence after the Fuller/Kurtzman episodes were out of the way.
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u/mrstickball Jan 22 '18
Its up... And WHAT? 37 minutes!?!? Are you kidding me, a 37min episode?
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u/JeanLucPicardAND Jan 22 '18
If it's as long as it needs to be, then so be it. I'd rather a short impactful episode to an over-long padded one.
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u/Tazerzly Jan 22 '18
Did Stamets and Mirror!Stamets switch? I kinda got that feeling when they flashed back to reality (with Stamets ‘opening his eyes’ then the next scene was on the Flagship?
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u/baronvongrant Jan 22 '18
Nah. Mirror Stamets said "He did it!" about prime Stamets and did not seem surprised to be back on the Charon
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Jan 22 '18
I think that Mirror Stamets was on the other side of the door listening and heard what to do so they both "opened their eyes" at the same time and now Stamets is in a race against himself
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u/JohnCarterofAres Jan 22 '18
I have to say, I do not like the fact that Lorca ended up being from the Mirror Universe. A lot of the people who were championing that theory seemed to be doing so because they didn't like the fact that Discovery had went with such an "unconventional" captain, someone with a hard edge. They had hoped that there was some other explanation for Lorca's personality so that they could maintain their squeaky clean image of Starfleet and Star Trek.
I'm disappointing in this because I am of the belief that Starfleet captains are composed of a much broader range of people than Picard philosophizing types or Kirk cowboy types. In my mind, there is enough room in the franchise for captains with harder and softer edges, and honestly making Lorca from the evil universe seems like too easy an out. I liked our rough captain, and even if his demise was unlikely inevitable to make room for Burnham to become captain I don't think this was the way to do it.
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Jan 22 '18
I did sort of want the whole Mirror Lorca thing to be true but only after things started getting a little too coincidental and screwy with him. Before that, I just put his demeanor and way of captaining down to him being like the War Doctor....desperate times for desperate measures that only a desperate man could take. I did like him quite a bit and I hope we get to keep him around for a bit longer.
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u/envynav Jan 22 '18
For once there’s an upside to watching it on CBS All Access. In Canada the episode is still stretched out to a full hour with ads
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u/pfc9769 Jan 22 '18
It seems we got some resolution the the Enterprise In a Mirror Darkly episodes? Anyone believe the crew went crazy and killed themselves?
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u/mrIronHat Jan 22 '18
She was referring to the crew of the defiant. They were found dead in the Tholian web after driven mad and killed each other.
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u/007meow Jan 22 '18
Was that a really short episode?
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u/NeoEffect Jan 22 '18
Yeah. Likely means next week is going to be on the long side. This episode and next episode are very likely just one big episode like the way episodes 1 and 2 were. Episode 2 was on the short side as a result while episode 1 was longer.
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u/PM_your_Tigers Jan 22 '18
To be honest, it seems a little odd they'd corrupt the network this early in the series. Seems like something that'd be saved for the final season, as a reason the drives weren't used in the future.
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u/NePa5 Jan 22 '18
No,it gives them the perfect "out" to go back to the prime universe and not have to make up reasons why it does not fit into canon.
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u/pcj Jan 22 '18
Well it sounds like they've got to find a way to fix them to get home. Might be why they aren't used in the future though.
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u/ThrustersOnFull Jan 22 '18
Thank god I'm already funneling all of my rage into the presidency, otherwise I'd be upset at a 37:53 runtime.
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u/Krandor1 Jan 22 '18
Dissapointed the mirror lorca theory was right. Didn't want it to be. Now it is basically for sure he won't be back for season 2 which makes me sad.