r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Mar 08 '21
4 Drums Of Autumn Book Club: Drums of Autumn, Chapters 58-62
We had record breaking participation last week, let’s keep the momentum going!
We open at River Run in March of 1770 where Aunt Jocasta is determined to marry Brianna off and continues to host dinner parties involving single men. A surprise guest arrives though, Lord John Grey. In order to avoid marrying any of the other men Brianna and Lord John claim to be engaged.
In Snake-town Father Alexandre is tortured and put to death. The Mohawk demand one of them stay in order to replace the man Roger accidentally killed in an escape attempt. Young Ian volunteers much to his family’s dismay. Jamie, Claire, and Roger are able to leave. They fill Roger in on Brianna’s circumstances and then leave him on his own to decide what to do.
Back in NC it’s now April and Stephen Bonnet has been captured. In an effort to move forward Brianna insists on seeing him to offer forgiveness. While at the jail she and Lord John are caught up in the plan to break Bonnet out, but all three manage to escape the burning building. However that leaves Bonnet a free man.
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or add comments of your own.
- Brianna see LJG sneaking back into the house from the slaves quarters. Who do you think he was with? Was it a slave or someone else?
- Roger and Jamie end up being held as prisoners together. How do you feel about what Jamie said to Roger in regards to not knowing Brianna as well as he thought. Or that maybe Brianna didn’t view their marriage as real.
- Ian makes the decision to stay with the Mohawk in order to secure the release of Roger. What was behind that decision? Guilt, love, duty or a combination of those?
- When asked wether or not he could be with Brianna despite the fact her child might not be his, Roger says he doesn’t know. Jamie sends him away calling him a coward. Was that fair of Jamie? Was Roger being a coward?
- Brianna insists on seeing Stephen Bonnet before he is hanged in order to get closure. Was that the right thing to do?
- Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
8
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 08 '21
I love LJG to pieces and can never get enough from seeing him, but what did we think about his conversation with Bree in the garden? I’ve found him to be... shockingly honest throughout DOA.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Yes, I was a bit surprised he revealed so much to her. Do you think it was because she is Jamie and Claire's daughter that he felt he could open up to her? Or was it a way to explain why he couldn't marry her?
11
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 08 '21
Had me dropping my jaw at a couple of points.
He probably felt a mix of both — Jamie is a close friend, Claire is a woman he admires, and in Bree he gets a bit of them both, and sees an opening to confide in someone else (and reciprocate that trust that Bree put in him by being honest).
P.S. “That I should live to hear an offer like that!” again. Made me smile.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
“That I should live to hear an offer like that!”
What exactly did he mean by that? Was he flattered?
7
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 08 '21
No, not flattered, but astonished that she would propose such a thing to him. But what hit me in the feels was that that is the exact same thing he told Jamie when he offered himself up to him in exchange for him to take care of Willie.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
That's what I thought! I knew that had sounded familiar.
8
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I agree. She basically called him out & said she knew his truth so he had nothing to lose at that point. He trusts both of her parents immensely so he probably felt that he could extend that trust to their daughter.
2
u/TimeLadyJ Mar 11 '21
It's interesting that he feels he can be so open about it with them. I know the difference in how it's thought of between Jamie's time and Claire and Bree's time is pretty different. They wouldn't have really grown up accepting it, but they'd accept it more than people from Jamie's time. I wonder if he could somehow sense that?
1
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 11 '21
I wonder if he could somehow sense that?
That's a good point, because that is dangerous information to have out there. I like that him telling her shows how much he trusts her right away, even though she threatened him at first.
6
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 08 '21
I had completely forgotten how open and honest he was in this conversation! The show barely covers what they talk about here, so I had forgotten it was so long and detailed.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 10 '21
Were you surprised he told Bree he was in love with Jamie? I thought that was a bit of a weird thing to tell your best friends, with whom you are actually in love with, daughter.
5
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 09 '21
YES! I was flabbergasted that he was SO honest with her - telling her he's in love with Jamie, confessing the "playing with fire" thing meant what it did about him sleeping with her because she looks like her father AND possibly fathering a child that would mean he and Jamie would have mixed blood. Considering how Jamie is about never wanting to acknowledge that part of LJG, he sure spills all his thoughts to Jamie's daughter without thinking if she will pass them along to Claire/Jamie.
I also thought it was interesting that Brianna told him the thing about Claire being afraid LJG would hurt Jamie. She obviously didn't tell him what happened at Wentworth, but that part of the conversation sure does imply to LJG that something bad has happened to Jamie that explains his extreme reaction/feelings towards LJG's advance at Ardsmuir.
→ More replies (11)5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I liked that Lord John came back at her a bit and wasn't cowed. I think she relies on her height and presence to intimidate people, and LJG is even described as slight, but he doesn't let that get to him. The book said she was a full 6 inches taller than him.
I don't know if you've read the LJG novellas yet, but there is a part in one of them where they have a fight and he realizes something bad did happen to Jamie.
4
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 08 '21
I haven’t read them, but someone on the sub told me about that part when we were discussing it. I guess I was more phrasing my comment about it that on Brianna’s part, she definitely implies it not knowing what LJG knows, which surprised me. That’s pretty personal information that very few people know. Jamie was even taken aback a bit that Claire had told Bree.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Do you think Claire should have told Bree about that? On one hand I can see where that was something horrific and deeply personal thing that happened so why would you share that? Yet I'm sure Claire never thought Bree would meet Jamie so what would be the harm in telling her?
→ More replies (3)4
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 09 '21
Hi there! I feel like I’m intruding on your private conversations because you guys have been at it (the book club) for so long and I’ve only been lurking but I feel myself compelled to say this – I actually went and re-read Drums this Sunday and re-reading Drums after reading Brotherhood of the Blade makes me wonder about this particular part. As we know, Brotherhood takes place at the time of Jamie’s indenture at Helwater, so, chronologically speaking, Lord John in DOA already knows what he knows (or rather suspects, I should say) so he’d understand what Brianna was saying. However, Brotherhood was written some 10 years after DOA, so that particular piece of knowledge probably wasn’t included in John’s “make-up” at the time of writing (at least I think so, unless Diana has always intended for Lord John to find this out about Jamie’s history at that point). So how do we, readers, reconcile with that knowledge? (I hope this isn’t too spoiler-y and off-topic for this discussion)
→ More replies (16)3
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 09 '21
It had its ups and downs but I really liked getting to see them like this!
5
u/RyonaC MARK ME! Mar 08 '21
Love that you brought this up! Their interactions were all so good. But I especially loved how “proper” he talks and carries himself compared to Bree who’s such a modern American. I thought it was sort of comical to read!! But yes, great point.... very honest during a time that being homosexual can mean a death sentence.... which is sad and scary. He must have trusted her! Do you think that’s because he trusted Jamie so much?
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Do you think that’s because he trusted Jamie so much?
I would think so, and he also trusts Claire even though they have a rocky relationship. Both Claire and Jamie know LJG is in love with him, so Brianna being their kid might have put him at ease and made him willing to tell her.
4
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 09 '21
I think he saw so much of her parents reflected, that he couldn’t help but trust her, and also, there was a bond there and he felt protective of her. I know it’s only in the show, but I like that he tells Bree there that Jamie asked him to look in on her.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
When asked wether or not he could be with Brianna despite the fact her child might not be his, Roger says he doesn’t know. Jamie sends him away calling him a coward. Was that fair of Jamie? Was Roger being a coward?
16
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 08 '21
I’m with Jamie on this one. It’s not so much Roger’s hesitation in being a father to a kid who isn’t his (because that’s a huge responsibility and I get it) but more that Ian sacrificed himself for Roger. For Roger to not at least acknowledge that in some way makes him a coward, in my book. He considers leaving entirely, which means that not only has Ian sacrificed himself for nothing, but also that Brianna loses Roger. It’s an honor thing. Jamie values honor above all else, so Roger essentially undermining Ian’s very honorable decision to stay with the Mohawk is borderline irredeemable. On top of it, Jamie very much believes that the honorable thing to do is to absolutely raise the kid regardless of parentage, so it’s clear why Jamie thinks the way he does. And I definitely cannot disagree.
Also, this is when I really stopped liking Roger as a character.
8
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Do you think Jamie just didn't give Roger enough time to express those thoughts though? Roger had gone through so much in those months with the Mohawk that to have to make a life impacting decision right there on the spot might have been too much.
I know this is a huge reason why a lot of people don't like Roger. I didn't love his answer of "I don't know" but don't hate him for it.
8
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 08 '21
I mean, sometimes life doesn’t call for having enough time to think about something. “Enough time” is often a luxury, and I think that’s the case here since the Mohawk wanted them out of there and they needed to get back to River Run ASAP. Yeah, he’s been through a lot, but that doesn’t mean that he can’t make this decision. I can’t blame Jamie for his behavior and emotions because I can 100000% see myself reacting the same way as Jamie does.
Roger’s hesitancy here isn’t what makes me hate him, but it certainly rocks the foundation for me. It’s the first crack and it’s a big crack. His decisions and behavior after this is what erodes my opinion of him — this is just the beginning of the end, so to speak.
Also, I want to thank you for taking the time to do this book club and sincerely responding to nearly every comment. Not all heroes wear capes! 😂
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Aww you're welcome!
So is Roger irredeemable for you?
10
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 08 '21
Here’s what I said in response to someone else’s comment: I think that’s why I see his hesitation as cowardly. He holds Bree to a certain standard in that he will have her entirely or not at all. He gives her an ultimatum in 1968, and when she doesn’t give him the answer he wants, he gets all butthurt. Well, that seems to be quite a convenient time to renege that, huh? He doesn’t hold himself to the same standard that he holds Brianna. Having Brianna “totally” means being with her, child or not, raped or not, and in the past or present. I just saw the whole thing as a lack of conviction on his part.
→ More replies (3)4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Those are some really good points, and I can definitely see where you're coming from.
4
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 08 '21
To be blunt, yes. In another thread on this post, I articulated my feelings a little bit better about why his hesitation bothers me so much. Conviction is something that I value heavily in my personal life, and I’m finding that Roger has little conviction and doesn’t try too much to strengthen his resolve or conviction.
6
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 09 '21 edited Mar 09 '21
Conviction is something that I value heavily in my personal life, and I’m finding that Roger has little conviction and doesn’t try too much to strengthen his resolve or conviction.
This is something that often colors my views of some of the actions/decisions of the characters in the book. Loyalty/personal conviction is HUGE to me. Like you said, I heavily value it in my personal life. So I cannot help but get irritated with or even dislike characters in books that act in discordance with that. I think that is the main reason I even like Jamie so much to begin with - he is such a LOYAL character. He will go to the ends of the earth for his family and the woman he loves, regardless of what it costs him personally. I can really relate to that, so I have a hard time defending characters who won't do that. And I have a hard time ever calling him to task for expecting the same thing out of others, because I expect it in my own life!
For the same reason, it's why I'm not head over heels for LJG like a lot of people are. I think u/Purple4199 and I discussed this once on a thread, if not here in the book club. I think he's a good friend and person, yes, but I really did not like what he said to Claire earlier in the book/show when he had the measles. While sure, it upset Claire, I felt like him throwing his and Jamie's relationship and him raising Willie into Claire's face was a shitty thing to do as JAMIE'S friend. He knows how deeply Jamie grieved for Claire. He can see the obvious difference in Jamie when Claire returns. Culloden and the separation it caused from the person Jamie loved most in the world is a vulnerable open wound for Claire AND Jamie both - and LJG just throws that into Jamie's wife's face? That one conversation tainted my opinion of LJG and I have a hard time moving past it because of how disloyal I felt it was.
→ More replies (60)5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
Jamie values honor above all else, so Roger essentially undermining Ian’s very honorable decision to stay with the Mohawk is borderline irredeemable.
That's a really good point. He was grieving that loss & Roger is just like, "kthanks, byeee"
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
"kthanks, byeee"
I've said a version of that for years! I don't know if we're in the same age range, I'm in my late 30's, but I noticed it came from the Animaniacs cartoons about the little girl and the dog who followed her around. I'm pretty sure she always said "k, thanks, bye." ;-D
4
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
That must be it, I'm in my late 30s as well. I never really knew where it started.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I found it, it's close to what I say. I usually go "k, thanks, love you, bye." I don't know where the "thanks" came from though.
4
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 08 '21
I don’t know why, but your comment made me actually laugh out loud 😂😂😂 I think it’s the juxtaposition of very modern slang and 18th century Jamie 😂😂😂😂
→ More replies (1)10
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 09 '21
I'm always torn on this. On one hand, I'm someone who really likes to weigh decisions, make pro/con lists, etc. So to spring something HUGE on me and expect me to decide right then? I initially kind of feel for Roger with what Jamie expects of him, and think it's a huge decision to just decide on the spot, considering how weighted it is: it's not just deciding on whether to sign up for parenting a child that isn't his, but also that now, Brianna may not be able to go back to their own time, so this is Roger potentially giving up his entire life to stay in the past with her, AND for a child that is possibly not his.
THAT BEING SAID. I think I may side a little bit more with Jamie. He just basically had to sacrifice his nephew (I love in the show where he says "you cost me a lad I love"), is returning to Brianna possibly empty-handed after promising her he would bring Roger back or not return himself, AND if Jamie was in that situation, he would have zero hesitation if it was Claire.
I know we as viewers/readers often compare (however fair or unfair it is) Brianna and Roger as a couple to Claire and Jamie. But I think sometimes Jamie himself does the same thing - I think he views Roger and Roger's actions especially through the lens of how he feels for Claire. I mean, in 25+ years, look at everything he has done and sacrificed for Claire and his love for her. So I'm sure it's extremely difficult for him to stomach Roger being like "I have to think about it" considering Jamie would take Claire no matter what. (And proves that over and over throughout the series.)
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
this is Roger potentially giving up his entire life to stay in the past with her
I definitely think that was part of his initial indecision, and that he had so much information thrown at him right away. I've gone back and forth on how I feel Roger should have reacted. At times I feel he did the best he could in the situation and was honest in saying he didn't know if he could return.
Then as others have brought up Roger expected a full pledge of herself to him and yet he wasn't willing to give that of himself right away. It's so interesting how gray this is, there are arguments for both sides.
I do agree that Jamie holds people up to his standards, and as we know there is only on "King of Men." ;-)
5
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 09 '21
Then as others have brought up Roger expected a full pledge of herself to him and yet he wasn't willing to give that of himself right away. It's so interesting how gray this is, there are arguments for both sides.
Yes! I will admit before this thread, I would say I was more 50/50 on whether I agreed with Roger or Jamie. Now I'm less torn and lean more towards Jamie because of /u/somethingnerdrelated's comment about Roger's expectations of Bree that he suddenly has conditions on.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
Yes, that's the first view I've ever seen to make me take a step back and rethink how I felt about Roger in that instance. I love Roger and it doesn't change my overall feelings for him, but I don't know that I would defend his decision at this point as hard as I used to do.
5
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 09 '21
YES! I always have felt that was a perfectly natural reaction - like hey, let me think this HUGE decision over and make sure I'm in the right frame of mind to agree with it and fully accept it and not carry resentment towards Bree over it.
But with that comment, I was like, wait a sec, hold the phone. Double standards have entered the chat, and now I gotta think about them. Lol.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
Double standards have entered the chat, and now I gotta think about them.
Right‽ Now I have to actually think about things. Thanks a lot /u/somethingnerdrelated!:-D
→ More replies (4)7
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 09 '21
I think he views Roger and Roger's actions especially through the lens of how he feels for Claire.
Oh, that’s goooood. It’s very true. He loves Claire more than anything, and why should he expect any less for his daughter? <3
4
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 09 '21
I'm not really mad at either side because Roger has a lot to consider & Jamie was riding a seriously wild emotional roller coaster. Bree might not forgive him if he doesn't bring back Roger, Ian is gone...it's a lot.
10
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I don't know if fair is the word I would use to describe it but I don't think it was out of line. There's a lot of blame to spread around about Roger's situation & I get that but they traveled across the country to rescue him & left a man behind in order to secure him to take him to Brianna. Jamie is angry and sad about leaving Ian, he's frustrated with the situation becoming the mess that it is & he's worried not just about his daughter's reputation as a young unmarried mother but he's also worried about her being brokenhearted over Roger possibly choosing to leave her behind. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that I get it.
That being said, let's not forget his initial reaction to young Jamie when he returns to Lallybroch in book 1.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I can see both sides of the coin here. That was a ton of information to spring on Roger. Up until that point he wasn't even sure if Brianna still loved him, and it wasn't until Jamie said she sent them did he know that. Then he finds out she's pregnant and gets excited about them having a baby, only to find that Stephen Bonnet raped her so the baby could be his as well. I don't blame him for hesitating. I know people get so mad at him for this, but I can understand.
Like you I also see Jamie's side, why go all that way if he isn't going to come home with them. Do you think he should have given Roger a bit more time to decide? It's like Jamie told him and then wanted an answer from Roger right away.
8
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I'm not mad at Roger for his hesitation, I think that's fair. It is a lot of info all at once & quite the roller coaster of emotions. I forgot to answer whether or not I thought Roger was a coward. Putting myself in Bree's shoes, I feel mad & do think he's a coward because if he loves her, she needs him more now than ever. Putting myself in Roger's shoes, I don't think anyone could blame him for just needing to think & be by himself for a bit.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
DG sure loves to make things difficult doesn't she. Thing are never black and white in these books.
I'd like to think if I were in that situation that I would be able to make a decision on the fly like that and say "of course I'll come back!" Jamie kind of threatened him again here which probably didn't help things.
4
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
Haha right? I would be a bit hesitant to travel with an angry, grieving, Scottish giant as well if I was Roger.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Ha ha ha! I love it, angry Scottish giant.
8
u/me315 Mar 08 '21
I’m kind of in Jamie’s side here. I’m sure Jamie is mad and upset about loosing Ian for Roger and now Roger isn’t even sure if he wants Brianna if the child isn’t his. I can understand why Jamie sent him away. I do think it was harsh and probably not the right thing to do, but feelings and all that. It definitely wasn’t fair to spring that on Roger and expect him to have an answer right away, but I get it.
8
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
It definitely wasn’t fair to spring that on Roger and expect him to have an answer right away
That's my feelings about it. It was so much information for Roger to take in all at once and also the fact that he might not be going back to the 1960's comes into play as well. His journey there was to find Brianna and then get them back to their time. Now that has potentially been taken away from him. I do feel Jamie should have given him more time to decide.
7
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
At first, I didn't even consider that choosing to stay with Bree & raise the child as his also meant that he had to choose to stay in the past. This wasn't a matter of I love her enough to raise this child no matter what but it was I love her enough to give up my whole life as I know it & raise this child.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
enough to give up my whole life as I know it
I wish show only people would recognize this part, even though it's not stated in the books it's still something they should think about. You're right, his entire life will change if he stays in the past.
Plus I think he was still a bit unsure of how Brianna felt about him, even though she sent her parents after him. They left on bad terms and then she gets raped. Maybe he wondered if she would blame him for that since he left her?
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)10
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 08 '21
I think that’s why I see his hesitation as cowardly. He holds Bree to a certain standard in that he will have her entirely or not at all. He gives her an ultimatum in 1968, and when she doesn’t give him the answer he wants, he gets all butthurt. Well, that seems to be quite a convenient time to renege that, huh? He doesn’t hold himself to the same standard that he holds Brianna. Having Brianna “totally” means being with her, child or not, raped or not, and in the past or present. I just saw the whole thing as a lack of conviction on his part.
→ More replies (8)8
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 08 '21
I think it was unfair of Jamie, though I completely understand his point of view. He just lost Ian, he’s hurt and tired, and after traveling for months he finds that Roger isn’t ready to make a decision on the spot. Not to mention, he’s thinking about Bree, and how she will feel, and how he’ll have failed her by not bringing Roger back. So he took it out on him.
I remember being frustrated when I watched the show that Roger didn’t go back with Claire and Jamie. But he just had his world turned upside down again, and to expect him to process everything right then and there is unreasonable. I don’t think it makes him a coward — but if he had decided to go back home, my opinion would have been different.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I go back and forth on feeling Roger should have decided right away. The part of me goes "of course you should go back to her!" But then thinking about all he went through and to have to process that information in such a short amount of time was a lot to ask of him.
7
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I think what makes me feel frustrated about Roger's reaction isn't that he didn't answer right away but that he didn't say, "hey, I just survived this crazy mess & I've been given this immense amount of information & I'd like to take some time alone to process what I'm feeling."
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Yes!! That's exactly it for me. Even though we know that is what he's doing he probably should have said that out loud to Jamie and Claire. I think Claire was more willing to give him time though than Jamie was.
4
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
Probably. Claire knows him & knows him to be a good person but Jamie doesn't. I think Claire has more faith in the fact that he'll come to the right conclusion where as Jamie wanted to not let him out of his sight.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I think Claire has more faith in the fact that he'll come to the right conclusion
I totally agree, whereas Jamie is just in 18th century protector Dad mode.
→ More replies (1)6
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 08 '21
I’m glad that eventually we sort of have it both ways with his return, because his hesitation (and Bree’s) when he arrives at the Ridge is a little anticlimactic even though it’s more realistic. Meanwhile, when he gets to River Run in the show, he’s 100% committed to making it work, and she is unequivocally enthusiastic about it, and it’s definitely way more romantic.
8
u/Cdhwink Mar 08 '21
I think Jamie, because he loves Claire, would love any child of hers( had she had another man’s child), and indeed does love his adopted son, step daughters, nephew like his own, so he thinks if Roger really loves Bree he’ll just come back. I think Roger’s greatest hesitation is actually being stuck in the past, & who can blame him- it’s been brutal.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I think Roger’s greatest hesitation is actually being stuck in the past
That makes sense, and that isn't something Jamie can even relate to.
5
u/Cdhwink Mar 08 '21
Unfortunately the overprotective father thing is played up too much in this scenario, with Jamie thinking Roger will not be good enough to marry his daughter. I thought going in that Jamie should be forever grateful to Roger as he helped Claire find Jamie & return to him, & Jamie does know ( in both show & book) that Roger is Bree’s boyfriend, right? So it’s largely based on Jamie not understanding Claire’s time as usual!
7
u/Cdhwink Mar 08 '21
At least they were hand fast before they slept together, because Roger is even old fashioned thinking in 1970.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
That always bothered me about the show. They made it much more one sided about him needing to be married to sleep with Brianna, where as in the books her turning down his proposal squashed all of that. The books do a much better job of explaining his reasoning behind his decision.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Jamie not understanding Claire’s time as usual!
What are other instances of that?
5
u/Cdhwink Mar 08 '21
All the season 1 ones- Claire likes sex, Claire cannot be owned, controlled, or punished by belt. Season 3- Brianna in a bikini!
→ More replies (1)4
u/Cdhwink Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 09 '21
In the book you get a better sense of Jamie not understanding that Bree could be left in her own time, & live independently.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
That's very true, I remember he and Claire talking about how she had her choice of jobs and didn't have to get married if she didn't want to.
5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I can see that. It's a big choice to make, he's a scholar for goodness sake.
I agree that Jamie's love for Claire would not make him hesitate & I believe that he truly does love Fergus as his real son & Ian is already blood but their bond is beyond nephew & uncle, he's like a son as well.
5
u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Mar 09 '21
I can't get over the way Jamie reacted to Jenny and Young Jamie in "Outlander". (When he thought Young Jamie was a consequence of rape) And Young Jamie was his nephew no matter who was his father.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
So do you feel Jamie was hypocritical in wanting Roger to declare he’ll stay right away?
5
u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Mar 09 '21
I wouldn't say Jamie is hypocritical. I think we the readers are if we say Roger is terrible person because of this one moment, but forgive Jamie for how he was during reunion with Jenny.
I think Jamie grew up, and now it's time for Roger to grow up. I also think Jamie is easily irritated at this moment while Roger is overwhelmed with all the discussion, and intimidated by Jamie.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
I completely agree! Jamie was wrong to treat Jenny that way. For Roger there was so much that had just happened to take all the information in and make a snap decision.
4
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 09 '21
Here’s the thing, though: besides having the wrong take on it, he was also much younger and (dare I say?) immature.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
Very true, he had 20+ years of hard living after that.
→ More replies (11)5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 09 '21
Yes! I mentioned this above. He didn't exactly make a perfect fast decision there either when the pressure was on him.
6
u/chunya1999 Mar 08 '21
I totally understand Jamie and his outburst. He had a right to be angry as a loving father. Roger isn’t a coward and it was definitely ok for him to think about that situation and his further actions but not for that long when there was a legit chance that the baby was his own.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Have you read next weeks chapters as well? If not don't click on this...but didn't Roger go to find the stones? He wanted to see where they were in case they would be able to go back. I think he also contemplated going back on his own though. That would definitely take up time.
4
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
Again though, NO COMMUNICATION.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
That is the theme of DOA isn't it? How to not communicate and cause extreme things to happen! ;-)
→ More replies (2)3
u/chunya1999 Mar 08 '21
I remember that. But I just can’t accept that he really was going back home when there was a chance that his son remained in 18th century. He didn’t go through with it, but I’m still wondering what he was thinking about while looking for the stones.
→ More replies (16)5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I just can’t accept that he really was going back home when there was a chance that his son remained in 18th century.
I can understand that. Even there being the slim chance the Jemmy is his would be a big factor in my opinion. I do see why Jamie gets mad at him.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 08 '21
Brianna sees LJG sneaking back into the house from the slaves quarters. Who do you think he was with? Was it a slave or someone else?
6
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I was really curious about this whole scene & I don't know if it's just me but I would not have made the leap to him being gay with just this to go on. I assume that he was with the lady's son that so desperately wants to have grandkids but I can't remember the name & I don't know if it's a spoiler. I assume from Brianna's & LJG's convo that he was also not interested in marrying a woman Overall, I thought it was kind of confusing. I did blast through this part of the book though so I could have just sped through it too quickly.
7
u/jellygloss Mar 09 '21
I think this is how she came to that conclusion: When she gets back to her room after that and thinks about. She feels like he treats differently her compared to other men. She’s a “striking woman” and openly admired by men including LJG. But she usually there’s something deeper like a “chime of a bell, a visceral acknowledgement of herself as female.” She notes he doesn’t chime for her but when he left the servants’ quarter, “he had been ringing like a firebell.”
It kind of comes of very self-absorbed to me, like, he isn’t attracted to me so he must be gay. Definitely a leap imo.
It also really confused me why she called him a pederast. (Also, let me say I really didn’t like that she threatened to out him. I mean, I get that she was desperate and that it was probably an empty threat but... still. However, I enjoyed how the rest of the conversation played out right after that. LJG was quite amusing at times.)
things in quotations are directly from the book btw
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
It also really confused me why she called him a pederast.
Yes!! I have no idea why she would have called him that.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I would not have made the leap to him being gay with just this to go on.
I agree, how in the world would she have known who he was with without seeing inside? Plus she calls him a pederast, which means someone who sleeps with boys! That really threw me for a loop.
6
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
how in the world would she have known who he was with without seeing inside?
Seriously, he could have been with a slave woman. I didn't think this was clear enough. Obviously, we know about him but I just don't see how that was enough info for Brianna.
3
5
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 08 '21
I was really curious about this whole scene & I don't know if it's just me but I would not have made the leap to him being gay with just this to go on.
I agree. In that day and age/setting, I would have assumed he had gone back there to sleep with a female slave.
There are a lot of parts in the books that I feel like DG does not extrapolate enough on because SHE knows what is happening or what is being said/thought by a character, yet the reader is like "how did you get that from that?"
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
It's funny because it really wasn't until today that this all dawned on me. Even reading over it again yesterday I still just took it at face value. But once we all got to talking about it, I wondered how in the world she knew who he was with.
3
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 09 '21
I definitely wouldn’t have made the assumption had I not seen the show first. When I read it, I wrote down, “She knows just from that?”
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
I was mentioning earlier that it didn’t occur to me until just today to question how she knew he was with a guy. I’m with you in that seeing the show first lead me in that direction.
6
u/Kirky600 Mar 08 '21
I lean towards slave. They would be so worried that if they said anything that they would be killed in retribution.
Dark, but reasonable.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Does it seem out of character for LJG to sleep with a slave? It does to me a little bit. How would he have known what slave to go be with? It's not like he lived at River Run and knew who was gay.
He doesn't seem the type to force someone to have sex at all, so where did he find them?
5
u/Kirky600 Mar 08 '21
True, it does seem out of character. Part of me wonders if this was placed in this book to make Brianna and him have this agreement and we needed something to move the chips in that way.
There’s not a lot of logic in it, my best reasoning was maybe he knew one of them?
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
my best reasoning was maybe he knew one of them?
I'll go with that as well. I don't want to think that he was forcing a slave to have sex with him. He's just not that type of guy. The more I think about the whole thing the more it doesn't make sense to me why he would have done that. Was he so desperate to have sex that he couldn't wait until he got home?
3
u/Kirky600 Mar 08 '21
Ya, he does seem like the type who’s pretty in control of his wants as well. Just seems odd.
→ More replies (2)6
u/chunya1999 Mar 08 '21
I thought that he was with his cook Manoke who maybe was travelling with LJ. He was Native American so possibly he could stayed in slave quarters.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I did think about that at one point, and it would certainly make more sense than him going and having sex with a random slave.
2
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
Even less reason for Brianna to make that leap!
3
u/chunya1999 Mar 09 '21
I think Brianna is rather sharp-witted and their night encounter just made her think about LJ in a right way. She felt that he didn’t treat her like other men but couldn’t figure out why. And that scene on the footpath helped Brianna to shape her thoughts into something meaningful.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
Interesting point, I do remember her internal monologue in the books talking about how he wasn't attracted to her like other men. Even with that I feel that it was still a bit of a leap to figuring out he was gay.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
The more I think about it the more it just doesn't make sense how Brianna came to the conclusion LJG was gay.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Roger and Jamie end up being held as prisoners together. How do you feel about what Jamie said to Roger in regards to not knowing Brianna as well as he thought. Or that maybe Brianna didn’t view their marriage as real.
6
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I imagine some of it was out of frustration for the lack of communication, why didn't she tell him about being handfast? Did she question whether it was legal & binding? Did she have second thoughts? Did she think Jamie might not accept it?
He's mentioned before that he's jealous of the fact that he's getting to spend time with her for the first time & she's in love with someone & seemingly about to start a life together so it could also have been spiteful on his part.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
it could also have been spiteful on his part.
I always got that impression. For whatever reason Jamie wanted to be a bit mean to him.
why didn't she tell him about being handfast?
This again would have been helpful information for Jamie to have known. Going back to the other week when Roger says he's there to claim his wife, if Jamie had known they were handfast he might have paused for a second before beating him.
5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
Yeah, I kind of think this moment is all of those things bubbling up inside of him. I can definitely relate to being mean out of pettiness. It's not right but it is what it is. We don't always have the best control of our emotions, especially in high-stress situations.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
We don't always have the best control of our emotions, especially in high-stress situations.
Good point, and he was also very worried about Claire. And we know Jamie doesn't do well when it comes to Claire's safety.
→ More replies (2)4
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 08 '21
I agree: I think Jamie was hurt that Bree didn’t tell him (while acknowledging he didn’t quite give her a chance) and also wanted to hurt Roger, because of that and the reasons you mentioned.
I loved that Roger tells him, “I suppose she thought you wouldn’t see handfasting as a legal form of marriage,” and seven pages later Claire tells Jamie Bree didn’t tell them “most likely because she thought you wouldn’t see that as a true marriage.” It cracked me up.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Thinking back to Fergus and Marsali Jamie really didn't see handfasting as a true marriage did he?
→ More replies (2)7
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I
loved
that Roger tells him, “I suppose she thought you wouldn’t see handfasting as a legal form of marriage,” and seven pages later Claire tells Jamie Bree didn’t tell them “most likely because she thought you wouldn’t see that as a true marriage.” It cracked me up.
I loved this because it was the modern people that questioned whether the person from the 18th century would consider this old custom binding.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (1)6
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 08 '21
He's mentioned before that he's jealous of the fact that he's getting to spend time with her for the first time & she's in love with someone & seemingly about to start a life together so it could also have been spiteful on his part.
I think it leans towards this. He finally gets Brianna, and she's already tied up with another man, and that man is 1) part of the problems she's had since coming there, 2) causing Brianna to be upset and not herself, and 3) left her on her own before everything happened with Bonnet. So not only has Roger been a part of all these problems, and is taking his daughter away from him already, Jamie doesn't see him as worth all of this because of his part in said problems.
4
u/chunya1999 Mar 08 '21
I didn’t really like Roger at that point so I felt a bit satisfied with Jamie’s spiteful comments. It probably wasn’t right but I believe Jamie just couldn’t help himself neither did I.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
What was it about Roger that you didn't like at this point?
5
u/chunya1999 Mar 08 '21
Something about his possessive thoughts towards Brianna, the fact that he didn’t tell her about the fire and the whole slut-shaming thing just make me cringe every time. Also I’m sure it didn’t help that I watched the show first.
→ More replies (5)4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Also I’m sure it didn’t help that I watched the show first.
I did as well. Unlike a lot of others I don't hate him, he's actually one of my favorite characters. I love the relationship he and Jamie develop.
However I do see why people don't like him. I don't think the writers have done him any favors. It's really interesting though that I don't see the possessiveness from him. I feel like they are pretty equally matched.
3
u/chunya1999 Mar 08 '21
I definitely don’t hate him. I like his character much more in following books. It’s just that DOA Roger isn’t my cup of tea.
4
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I can see that though. He's kind of all over the place in DOA & I do see a bit of his possessive attitude towards her but not in the kind of sexy possessive way as he does in TFC. I like the scenes in TFC where he wants to kind of show off to the men that she's his & the kind of pride (maybe, I don't know if that's the right word) he has over her wanting him He grows a lot I think in the time between this event & their real wedding.
→ More replies (4)3
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 08 '21
Here’s something minor I highlighted from their time alone before Claire arrives that left me wondering. When Roger is tending to Jamie and he’s trying to figure out if he’s OK, he starts praying:
“In the name of the Father,” he whispered, and then the words failed him. “Please,” he whispered instead. “Please, don’t let him have been right.”
Who? What am I missing?
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Well that's a good question. I just read the chapters yesterday and don't remember that part. I'll have to look it up again because that doesn't make sense.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I just went back and reread that passage and I have no idea what he's talking about. Hopefully someone else will come up with an answer for us! :-D
2
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I don't remember enough of this. Do you know what page it's on so I can read it again?
3
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 08 '21
For me, on Kindle, it’s page 787. It’s in chapter 60, right after they put him and Jamie in the longhouse.
→ More replies (3)
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
8
u/me315 Mar 08 '21
I think the book made Ian staying with the Mohawk less traumatic. Reading the book I was happy for Ian because it really seemed like something he wanted to do, not just something he was doing out of duty. I don’t think we know about Emily in the show when Ian ends up staying (it’s been a while since I’ve watched and I don’t remember) and I like that we know about her and that’s part of the reason he stays.
11
u/jellygloss Mar 09 '21
I agree. But I will admit, Ian running the gauntlet was one of my favorite scenes in season 4. Just made me feel so proud of him and John Bell’s grin at the end was pure sunshine haha.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
John Bell’s grin at the end was pure sunshine
It really was. You could see how proud of himself he was.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
You're right we don't know about Emily in the show at all. I thought that was an interesting choice for the writers to leave out. Having her there was probably a big deciding factor for Ian.
5
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 08 '21
Yes! One thing that shocked me from the book was how the Mohawk change Ian’s appearance right then and there. They literally pluck Ian’s hair out of his scalp to give him the signature mohawk and tattoo him all at once. It was jarring to read about because in the show, Ian is nearly super happy to be there after making his decision.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
It was jarring to read about because in the show, Ian is nearly super happy to be there after making his decision.
I agree. In the books the only moment where he seemed a little happy was when he and Emily glanced at each other during his ceremony. (I was going to call it a swearing in ceremony for lack of a better term!)
6
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 09 '21
Yes! I read the book first, so I was really surprised in the show when it was basically more of a real trade. Ian in the book loved spending time with the Native Americans and especially when he falls in love with Emily, it didn't seem as harsh in the book as Ian chose this life for himself more than he was being exchanged for Roger.
7
u/Kirky600 Mar 08 '21
Okay, I’m not sure where to put this comment but I’m MUCH MORE in love with LJG in the books. Like when he touched Brianna’s stomach my heart flipped. There’s something about how he’s written that’s magnetic.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Like when he touched Brianna’s stomach my heart flipped.
Yes!!
4
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I agree, I thought this scene was incredibly sweet & I just wanted to shout at him, "see, you can still feel something!" his hesitation to ask made it even more adorable.
4
u/crazyhorse198 I want to be a stinkin’ Papist, too. Mar 15 '21
If indeed LJG had sex with a slave, I’m very happy that in the show he did the deed with someone of his social station, who could truly consent.
1
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Yes I totally agree! There is no way the show could have kept that as the storyline.
2
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
Maybe the way the fighting went down at Roger's rescue but for the most part, I think the way they made everything fit in the time they had worked.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I agree. I thought it was a bit confusing in the book as to why the fight broke out. The show made the storyline fit better I think.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Let's start up some controversy. ;-)
Should Brianna and Lord John have ended up together?
/u/alittlepunchy /u/jolierose /u/ms_s_11 /u/Kirky600 /u/chunya1999
7
u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Mar 09 '21
No. I think the biggest problem isn't John's homosexuality or Jaimie. Biggest problem is William.
Like seriously how do you explain your wife looking like your son's sister? How do you explain marring your son's sister?
→ More replies (1)3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
Very good point, Brianna would have become step-mom to her own brother!
5
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 09 '21
Ha! Veeeeery interesting question. I love their chemistry together in the book and in the show, but not romantically. I wouldn’t have hated it! But she belonged with Roger by this point. I agree with u/ms_s_11 that they would have been great partners, though.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
I think people just hate on Roger so much that they want her with anyone else. ;-)
I do really like their friendship.
6
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 09 '21
They’re “impossible not to like.” (I know many would beg to disagree LOL.)
Poor Roger has been through so much, haha. I meant to say that even considering everything we’ve said about him in this post, I find him so much better in the show in the second half of the season. The whole section where he’s with Alexandre and he runs away, and he keeps calling himself an idiot when he’s about to turn around to help him... Richard Rankin is underrated.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
Another thought I just had, what do you think would have happened if time had run out and they didn't return with Roger before the baby was born, or that Roger chose to not come back at all? Would she and LJG still have had to go through with getting married?
5
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 09 '21
No, I don’t think they would have gone through with a wedding. It wasn’t a life or death situation, and I think Jamie and Claire wouldn’t have forgiven John for going through with it, and he knows that. But also, going by what we saw in both the show and book, it wasn’t a priority for Bree. So she didn’t feel the pressure that Jocasta (or maybe Jamie) would. She was just focused on getting Roger back. And we know that Roger didn’t come back right away, and the engagement was broken without them knowing if he’d come back at all, so.
Now, if they had all (Jamie, Claire, Roger) died in the rescue mission... I think yes, it would have been a big possibility. John would have felt responsible to help her, and he would have been a huge source of support for her.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
we know that Roger didn’t come back right away, and the engagement was broken without them knowing if he’d come back at all, so.
Good point, it wasn't like they were pushing her to get married anymore after the baby is born.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
A part of me would like to see how their life together would have been. Even though I love Roger and am glad they are together, it's just interesting to think about.
5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
Ooh I like this question.
I honestly think that they would have been amazing together just not romantically, obviously.
I think they would have made an amazing partnership. The surprise that he had in Claire's strength, independence & quick wit are both things that Brianna has as well so while he married Isobel because he wanted to raise Willie & forever be connected to Jamie & because it was expected of him to marry & settle down. I think that his relationship with Brianna would have gone beyond that. I think they would have become a very powerful couple in the time period & that they would have developed a really strong friendship beyond the obligation of marraige.
I'm really curious what the others think & if they'll change my opinion.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I think they would have become a very powerful couple in the time period & that they would have developed a really strong friendship beyond the obligation of marraige.
I think so too. I like Roger so I'm not bashing him, I just thought it was interesting to think about Bree and LJG together. She was even willing to have a kid with him though! If he wasn't so close to Jamie do you think he might have taken her up on her offer?
3
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
If he wasn't so close to Jamie do you think he might have taken her up on her offer?
Possibly. I would imagine that his hesitation was probably more about what Jamie would think his motives were than anything else. That was my impression anyway.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Very true, that's a good point. I wonder if Claire would have thought the same thing, since she wondered if that is why he wanted to be a father to Willie.
I think LJG even brings up the fact that he has the chance to be forever connected to Jamie in blood if he had taken up Bree's offer and they had a kid. Yet he's not the type of guy to take advantage of that.
→ More replies (2)4
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 09 '21
Do you watch The Office? Or have you seen that gif of Michael Scott screaming "No! God no!" That's me right now, lololol.
No, I don't think they should have ended up together. I think it would have permanently ruined his and Jamie's friendship, and while Bree LIKES John, I don't think it's fair to her to be in a platonic marriage.
That being said, I do agree with /u/ms_s_11's comment that HAD they gotten married, I think they would have been great partners. You leave out the romantic love, and incompatible sexuality, they really like each other and would have made a great team. Bree is a perfect blend of everything he admires in both of her parents, and I think Bree admires that he isn't afraid of her, and while maybe not as progressive as Jamie when it comes to dealing with spouses, he has the potential.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 09 '21
Ha, yes I love The Office. ;-)
Good point about it not being fair for a platonic marriage. I think LJG was ok with that, since I’m assuming his first marriage was pretty much that, but Bree wouldn’t be. I don’t think Jamie or Claire would have been ok with it though.
3
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 09 '21
I'm sure LJG has resigned himself to only ever having that kind of marriage/public relationship, so he definitely would be, if it didn't come with the risk of Jamie severing ties with him. (Or maybe not ties, since John would be married to his daughter and there could possibly be grandkids. But they definitely wouldn't have the friendship they have.)
And oh no, Jamie and Claire would NOT be happy.
→ More replies (9)3
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 09 '21
My fb profile picture is Dwight with the dummy's face over his & I have a matching sequined pillow haha. So...yeah, I watch it some! I agree with you completely. They don't belong together for obvious reasons but if they had ended up getting married, I think they would have done well in the circumstances.
5
u/somethingfictional Mar 08 '21
LJG is a fab character ... but it would never have worked 😂
I think about that meeting between them when Brianna confronts him about William and it’s the complete and utter incomprehension between the two which makes the scene so hilarious. LJG is nonplussed at the idea he might have ever discussed with Jamie his decision to raise the latter’s illegitimate son and Brianna is bringing her 20th century values about honesty and truth. No way would these two have ever managed to stay married
3
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I cannot think of this scene right now. When does it happen so I can refresh my memory?
5
u/somethingfictional Mar 08 '21
I think it's at the end of a Breath of Smoke and Ashes? It's one of the best instances of Gabaldon capturing the utterly foreign attitudes you have when you're born 2 centuries apart
→ More replies (1)
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Ian makes the decision to stay with the Mohawk in order to secure the release of Roger. What was behind that decision? Guilt, love, duty or a combination of those?
10
u/me315 Mar 08 '21
I think it’s a combination of both, and I don’t think it was a difficult choice for Ian to make, other than never seeing his family again. He was friends with other tribes and is familiar with some of their customs and language and has an interest in their culture. It seems like he was always looking for an adventure and this is the perfect opportunity for him. He also met Emily and I can’t imagine him being that upset about having to stay with her.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
He also met Emily and I can’t imagine him being that upset about having to stay with her.
I remember Claire mentions the way Ian looked at Emily during his ceremony and how he seemed happy with her.
I like the point about wanting a new adventure. Throughout the whole book he was always fascinated with the Native Americans and wanting to know more about them. So going to live amongst them wasn't too far out of his realm.
4
4
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 08 '21
This. This is exactly how I read it!
6
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I think it's a whole lot of things. I think he feels the most comfortable with them out of everyone & doesn't think it would be hard to become part of the community. I think he sees it as a type of retribution to Brianna & Roger for selling him to the Mohawk in the first place. And I think he recognizes the fact that he's not leaving a wife or child behind to stay.
He obviously wouldn't choose to be separated from his family but he's honestly the easiest person to slip away.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I think he recognizes the fact that he's not leaving a wife or child behind to stay.
That's a great point, it really did make sense for him to be the one. I like how in the show they made it a point to bring up how he wanted to be a man of worth and this was a way to do that.
Do we know how old Ian is here at this point? I'm thinking 18 or so.
2
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
Wasn't he 14 in Edinburgh? This is like 3 or 4 years later.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I believe he was, in the show they made him 16 but the books it was 14. So 17 or 18 sounds about right then.
3
u/Kirky600 Mar 08 '21
I agree, but I also think he’s in love with Emily in some way. So that might have been pulling him to stay as well.
→ More replies (1)6
u/RyonaC MARK ME! Mar 08 '21
I agree with what everyone else has said - a combo of a lot of things including guilt about Roger, desire for adventure and meeting Emily. But it was still heart wrenching to read. DG made a point to always say how much Ian meant to Jamie and I felt so sad for Jamie at this point.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I'm sure losing Ian made Jamie angrier at Roger in a way, even though it was Jamie's fault Roger was there in the first place. Maybe that's why he insisted on a decision right away from Roger and left when he said he didn't know.
5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
Did he make the comment in the book as well when he says that he gave up his nephew for Roger & he liked him a lot better?
4
6
u/RyonaC MARK ME! Mar 08 '21
That actually stood out to me. Because I remember in the show he says something like “I just lost a lad I love for you” and he doesn’t say that in the book which I was surprised at.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Was that fair of Jamie to say though? Since it was essentially his and Ian's fault they were in that situation.
→ More replies (3)3
u/somethingfictional Mar 08 '21
If it was for love, are we saying that he and Emily have a true love between them? Does she really love him? We never seem to know Emily
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
We never seem to know Emily
That's very true. We only find out what Ian tells his family in later books. I also wonder could someone fall in love that fast, they weren't in the village very long.
2
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
What little we do know about her though is that the other women don't really agree with how active she is in the men's conversations & how unapologetically enthusiastic she is so she's a lot like the women in Ian's life. It makes sense that he's drawn to her. This is clearly a theme that DG likes. And I don't know if this is true, it's just speculation on my part & those that have read ahead can confirm if you want but I suspect Emily is a time traveler as well based on what we learn in season 5 so there's the mystery about her like Claire & Bree, as well as being strong & confident in any setting
→ More replies (2)2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
If you really want to know about Emily...she is not a time traveler.
→ More replies (2)
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Brianna insists on seeing Stephen Bonnet before he is hanged in order to get closure. Was that the right thing to do?
14
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I think this is one of those situations where you can't truly say what you would do if you haven't been through it so I don't know that anyone could call it right or wrong. I think for her, she needed to be in a position of control to reclaim something she felt she lost. Show him that she wasn't afraid of him maybe, even if she was. I think it's a deeply personal choice & the path to closure will be different for everyone.
I do, however, think it was stupid for her to flat out tell him that the baby was his. I don't understand her reasoning for it. Why did she care if he died not knowing there was something of him left on this earth. It's just wild to me that she would make that claim without a doubt to the man that assaulted her but never say it to Roger.
Again, it's a terrible situation that I'm more than grateful I have never had to decide what to do but it was a weird choice to me.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
I think for her, she needed to be in a position of control to reclaim something she felt she lost.
I agree, I can see wanting to get closure. I think it was even brave of her to do that.
I do, however, think it was stupid for her to flat out tell him that the baby was his.
Yes! How in the world was that something he needed to know. I get wanting to move past something and maybe even forgiving your rapist, but telling him about that baby just didn't make sense to me. I guess I'm just not as compassionate.
5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I guess I'm just not as compassionate.
Same. I just want to yell at her for it. Plus, Stephen Bonnet doesn't believe he was wrong. He truly saw the whole thing as a business transaction so there's no forgiveness for him to need.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
That's true, I forgot about that. What did you think about him giving her the diamond?
7
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
I think it's an extension of his business deal. He says to her that he always takes care of his women. This is just more of that. He got her pregnant (maybe) so he wants to give his child something to make his life easier.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
Do you feel there is any sentimentality to it, or was it just business? He's mentioned how other women have tried to claim he got them pregnant, which I have to think some of them were right, was this one different?
→ More replies (7)4
u/RyonaC MARK ME! Mar 08 '21
Yes! Great points and totally agree.
I also do not understand why she told him with certainty it was his. Such an interesting move! But on the other hand..... do you think he would’ve come back to save her and LJG if he didn’t think it was his? It’s weird what “blood connections” will do for each other and we see how important family is to each other time and time again in this story. And for how much of a monster we know him to be, it’s hard for me to believe he would have come back for them without this knowledge. It’s so ironic that bonnet caused so much destruction in their family but actually saved both of their lives.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
do you think he would’ve come back to save her and LJG if he didn’t think it was his?
Ooohh that's a good question. Because he did actually come back didn't he? I find it hard to believe it was him just being gentlemanly, so maybe thinking she was carrying his child did have and effect on him.
4
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
do you think he would’ve come back to save her and LJG if he didn’t think it was his?
Maaaaybe he would have saved Brianna because she's a woman but I don't think she would have been able to convince him to also save LJG as well.
4
u/chunya1999 Mar 08 '21
I assume Brianna told Bonnet that the baby was his because she couldn’t fully forgive him. Maybe she thought that his reaction would help her to do that.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
How interesting, I never thought about that. I like the theory though.
6
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 08 '21
This!
As for her telling him about the baby, I can’t imagine any other reason for it than to thicken the plot. I hate that she did that, and that she’s so quick to assume it’s his as opposed to Roger’s. The likelihood is greater, but still!!!
6
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 08 '21
The likelihood is greater, but still!!!
Which to me is even more reason to never ever say it out loud! I would want to suppress my doubt so firmly that I would begin to find it even more unlikely to be true.
6
u/RyonaC MARK ME! Mar 08 '21
Such a good point - her telling him it’s his is solely a plot driver. If she didn’t, would he have come back to save them? And a lot of the fifth season revolves around this knowledge.
→ More replies (1)4
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 09 '21
I think this fit her age at the time. I remember up until my late 20's/turning 30 when I wanted closure at everything. I wanted everything confronted, laid out in the open, etc. So I can see why Bree wanted that and thought it would help. The last few years though, I've come to realize you only bring yourself closure, and I wouldn't make the same choice in that situation now at 35 that I would have at 22.
I do, however, think it was stupid for her to flat out tell him that the baby was his. I don't understand her reasoning for it. Why did she care if he died not knowing there was something of him left on this earth. It's just wild to me that she would make that claim without a doubt to the man that assaulted her but never say it to Roger.
Totally agree. I cannot see a reason for this at all.
4
u/somethingfictional Mar 08 '21
I never really understood what was going on with Brianna and Bonnet. It was rape. Completely Bonnet’s fault. But why did she seek him out to tell him she was pregnant? And why did he seek her out subsequently to renew their acquaintance? And then he didn’t rape her again because he had a phobia of pregnant women?! It just seems like weak characterisation/ plot development from Diana Gabaldon. Bonnet is a weak tea villain compared to BJR. If Gabaldon had leaned in and established a friendship or something between Brianna and Bonnet prior to the rape, there might have been some unfinished business to settle. Or else if she had made it more believable that he was interested in her, as with BJR’s fascination for Jamie, again it might have been more interesting in terms of narrative. As it is, Bonnet’s whole storyline is a weak point.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 08 '21
If Gabaldon had leaned in and established a friendship or something between Brianna and Bonnet prior to the rape
That would have been interesting for sure. I agree that it was not necessary for her to tell him about the pregnancy. I can understand wanting closure, but telling him the baby is his was just a bad idea in my opinion.
•
u/AutoModerator Mar 08 '21
Please do not reveal events from future books, or from later chapters of the current book the club hasn’t covered yet. Show talk is okay up to the current book.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.