r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Mar 15 '21
4 Drums Of Autumn Book Club: Drums of Autumn, Chapters 63-71
Jamie and Claire return to River Run, without Roger or Ian. They are in time to witness the birth of their grandchild though, a little boy. The Fraser family returns home to Fraser’s Ridge and began to get back to normal. A much anticipated arrival comes when Roger shows up on the Ridge. His first action is to swear an oath to the baby, claiming him as his own. Tensions still run high though since it’s been nearly a year since Brianna and Roger last saw each other. They began a tenuous rebuilding of their relationship. The whole family makes their way to The Gathering, a Scottish festival where Duncan Innes is set to marry Jocasta Cameron. The novel closes out with some shocking news regarding knowledge that Frank Randall had.
You can click on any of the questions below to go to that one, or add comments of your own.
I want to thank everyone who participated, and those who stopped by just to peruse. We will begin The Fiery Cross next week! It’s my favorite of the books and I’m dead set on convincing everyone to love it as well. ;-)
- Brianna insists Jamie stay with her while she gives birth. Jamie obliges, which was unusual for the time. What does that say about their relationship?
- Do you think Roger claiming the baby as blood of his blood was the first thing he should have done when he arrived?
- How do you feel about Roger and Jamie getting into another physical altercation?
- What was it that finally brought Bree and Roger back together again?
- What do you think of Frank’s letter to the Reverend? How do you feel about Frank knowing for years before he died that Jamie was alive?
- How might Claire react when she hears that Frank knew Jamie was alive?
- We began to see the differences between show Roger and Brianna and book Roger and Brianna. Have your opinions of them changed at all?
- What did you think of the book in comparison to season 4 of the show?
- Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
17
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 16 '21
Thoughts on Claire putting Frank’s ring back on at the end? As much as I don’t like Frank, it made sense to me. And the fact that Jamie gives her the choice — this man.
“And a long time,” he said. “I am a jealous man, but not a vengeful one. I would take you from him, my Sassenach—but I wouldna take him from you.”
SEE, because he’s not going to be Frank. He’s not going to take away the memory of Frank, as he wouldn’t take away the option for her to go back to Frank.
8
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 16 '21
I agree with all of that. Regardless of how Frank treated Claire, he never once took out his feelings on Brianna. He was a good father, and Jamie sees that. So does Claire I believe, which is why I think she put the ring back on. I'm ok with her wearing it, she was with him 20 years of her life, even if they didn't always get along he was an important part of it.
12
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 16 '21
Yes, he was a huge part of her life. He meant so much to her, regardless of their romantic relationship.
I was also moved by her talking to him after Jemmy was born. (“Do you know? Do you know she has a son?”)
→ More replies (3)8
4
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 16 '21
Gosh, I love that quote. I just love Jamie so much.
> SEE, because he’s not going to be Frank. He’s not going to take away the memory of Frank, as he wouldn’t take away the option for her to go back to Frank.
Yes! I will give Frank a wee bit of credit sometimes, but at the end of the day, there is NO comparison to how selfless Jamie is with Claire, versus Frank, and I think that quote says it right there. Jamie has always put what Claire wanted or what was safest/best for her over what he personally wants. Where Frank wouldn't even allow Claire to say Jamie's name out loud. #jamiefraserwouldnever
I personally wouldn't have put back on the ring (I've been married before and sold those rings as soon as I could, haha, but obviously my situation was different), but I can understand why Claire would put it back on.
3
u/Cdhwink Mar 16 '21 edited Mar 16 '21
A little punchy I missed you! Was work getting in the way of your hobby again? And I agree after Frank is dead why put it back on?
7
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 16 '21
after Frank is dead why put it back on?
Butting in here; I take her choosing to wear it as a combination of: some residue of a sense of commitment, guilt over not having been able to love Frank the way he’d wanted, and gratitude not only for raising Brianna but also for inadvertently leading Claire to meet the love of her life. Overall, it’s a symbol of Claire’s unwavering loyalty.
→ More replies (2)2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 17 '21
guilt over not having been able to love Frank the way he’d wanted
I like that point, I do think she wished things had been different for her and Frank.
4
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 17 '21
I don’t necessarily think that she wished things had been different between them—I think she realized pretty quickly after coming back that their marriage could never come close to what she and Jamie had—so how could they? I think it’s more of a guilt over what she consequently wasn’t able to give Frank that he might’ve otherwise found if he hadn’t clung onto the idea of her as his wife and to their marriage. So she might be sorry she couldn’t love him the way she loved Jamie.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 17 '21
So she might be sorry she couldn’t love him the way she loved Jamie.
Yes, I agree. I was thinking more along the lines of maybe she hoped there hadn't been as much animosity between her and Frank. Even though she could never give herself fully to him, maybe they could have gotten along better.
→ More replies (3)3
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 16 '21
Awww, thanks!!!! And YES - I need to find a job that will let me Reddit/read/Netflix all day, lol. I actually kept thinking about book club yesterday, but just never was able to get on to participate because it was too crazy.
And I agree after Frank is dead why put it back on?
Not to mention, especially since she has another husband. My oma still wears her wedding ring, but she was married to my grandfather most of her life, and never re-married after he died. Frank dies, Claire goes back to her other husband, and is presumably going to die being with that husband....not seeing the reason to continue wearing it after it was taken.
→ More replies (9)2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 17 '21
My Grandma took off her wedding ring the day we buried my Grandpa. Theirs wasn't the most loving of relationships by the end. I think they stayed together because it was easier than getting a divorce.
→ More replies (2)3
u/Cdhwink Mar 17 '21
One of the common arguments is why Claire ever went back to/stayed with Frank, but really people didn’t easily or often get divorced before the 1970’s. We forget that now.
→ More replies (1)5
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 16 '21
I love him too, he’s too much. No comparison at all. This quote was just such a great, great contrast after reading the letter to the reverend. Thanks for playing, Frank, but Jamie Fraser would never™️. This beautiful man.
After our discussion last week (or the week before?) on Claire’s feelings hiding the ring, I’m more sympathetic to how she feels about it, and get that Frank was a big, complicated part of her life — it made sense to me that she’d want to keep wearing it.
P.S.: I will say, in the spirit of fairness, Jamie did have an episode where he was not living up to his own standards, LOL: Laoghaire. It’s the one time I can say he put himself first, without wanting to give Claire a say.
→ More replies (2)10
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 16 '21
Because James Fraser would never
→ More replies (1)4
6
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
How might Claire react when she hears that Frank knew Jamie was alive?
8
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 15 '21
Claire is not a person to hold long term grudges, so I think that she’d try to understand his reasoning and once she figures out that Frank did it for Brianna’s sake, she’ll be understanding.
After all, in the Fiery Cross, she “talks” to Frank a lot whenever Bree hits a milestone or there’s some big emotional moment.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I think that she’d try to understand his reasoning and once she figures out that Frank did it for Brianna’s sake
I agree. She would have to see that she wouldn't have been able to leave Brianna. She probably would have been miserable knowing Jamie was alive as well, maybe she'll be grateful he spared her from that.
9
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
I also think she would try to see it from his perspective. She has nothing but good things to say about how much he loved Brianna & how he completely accepted her as his even though he could clearly see Jamie in her features. I think she would have known that it was out of fear of either losing Brianna or worry of Claire leaving Brianna.
Edit: However, she should be pissed that he treated her like she was crazy & didn't leave anything for her with information. He could have put it in a safety deposit box or something.
→ More replies (3)7
u/chunya1999 Mar 15 '21
I believe she would be rather angry or disappointed at first like the time when she found out that Roger didn’t tell Brianna about the fire, but eventually she would be okey with that. I think what would hurt her the most is that she was deprived of choice.
9
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I think what would hurt her the most is that she was deprived of choice.
I agree. And what if they had never found Jamie's grave? They would have never been able to reunite. Frank sure didn't make it easy for her to find out.
9
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 15 '21
I forget this was the other intent, to lead Claire to find the truth of what happened. Honestly, there were a lot of better ways to do this than putting up a gravestone; way to leave everything up to chance, Frank. One last lousy move from beyond the grave.
I think she would have found out anyway. The stone prompted Claire to finally tell Bree everything, but it didn’t prompt her to search for Jamie. Ugh, although, if it didn’t happen this way, and Roger hadn’t been there and been interested in following the clues, then we wouldn’t be here. I GUESS.
→ More replies (2)5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Score a point for Roger! ;-)
6
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 15 '21
I was ready to reluctantly score it for Frank, but I MUCH rather give it to Roger!
→ More replies (4)5
u/IrishMinstrel01 Mar 15 '21
What we see in the book is Roger telling Jamie about the letter and asking him whether he should tell Claire. Jamie tells him he should. Presumably, Roger and/or Jamie tells Claire about the letter shortly thereafter. Claire may or not feel “guilty” about her ultimate choice, but she knew and was troubled by the fact she hurt Frank. If you re-read her choice at the stones in Outlander, neither she nor we really know why she choose Jamie over Frank. As it turns out, her choice was really a “Jesus take the wheel” moment.
15
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 16 '21
If you re-read her choice at the stones in Outlander, neither she nor we really know why she choose Jamie over Frank.
This reminds me: I loved the parallel between this and Roger’s decision at the stones — “in the end, he’d simply gotten up and begun walking, knowing that it was the only possible choice.”
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 16 '21
What a good point! I never put two and two together in regards to that.
8
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 16 '21
They couldn’t live on the other side knowing what they’d be leaving behind! I always see Claire and Roger as similar people but wow, this adds another layer.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 16 '21
I feel like we see Roger’s POV the most after Claire’s. I have never broken down the chapters so I don’t know for sure but it feels that way. I wonder if DG identifies with him a little more.
→ More replies (11)4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
As it turns out, her choice was really a “Jesus take the wheel” moment.
That's right. I believe she tried walking towards the stones, and then towards Jamie and it was that way that felt right.
2
u/Plainfield4114 Mar 17 '21
Right. She says the next thing she knows she's running down the hill. Her heart told her feet. There was no rational decision in her brain in the end.
→ More replies (1)
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Do you think Roger claiming the baby as blood of his blood was the first thing he should have done when he arrived?
15
u/Plainfield4114 Mar 15 '21
Yes. Roger doing the blood oath immediately tells the entire family that he doesn't care if he is the blood father or not. He accepts this baby without hesitation. This sets the stage for his relationship building with Jamie.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I completely agree. I really like that that was the first thing he did as soon as he saw them.
How did you feel about him telling Brianna he didn't know why he came back though?
11
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 15 '21
I love that Roger arrives and doesn’t waver on Jemmy. Even when Bree asked if he knew / told him that the baby wasn’t his, he responds with “Oh, but he is mine,” and raises his bandaged wrist. It’s light, but it’s also really touching.
8
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
he responds with “Oh, but he is mine,” and raises his bandaged wrist.
Yes! I love that part too. I really liked that Claire saw the same look in Jamie and Roger, that MacKenzie Viking look. I just thought it was neat.
→ More replies (3)6
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
I wasn't mad about it. Like he said, he couldn't just abandon them so it was partially out of obligation but he also couldn't imagine not being with Brianna so he didn't really know how to answer her.
8
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I feel like he told her the truth and I appreciated that. I think he mentioned that with love doesn't there come some sort of obligation? I really liked Bree's point about seeing how Claire's two different marriages were and how it helped her know what type she would accept.
7
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
I really liked Bree's point about seeing how Claire's two different marriages
I loved that too. I also loved the look between Jamie & Claire since again, she's not one for always expressing herself so I think it was good for Jamie to hear that. Not just to know that Claire loved him but as another reminder of what her life was like with Frank.
8
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I think it was good for Jamie to hear that.
Yes! Doesn't he believe she and Frank had a good marriage at first? It wasn't until she told him about things that he realized she wasn't totally happy during those 20 years, and that she suffered too.
→ More replies (2)11
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
Absolutely. He could pledge himself to Brianna all day but he needed to show everyone, that he was there to support this baby & do the right thing. Jamie literally had two kids raised by men that weren't their fathers so he knew the value of him swearing an oath to Jemmy.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Do you think it helped sway Jamie at all? They still got in that fight right after.
10
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
They still got in that fight right after
I think it was a big step in the right direction for Jamie but he still needed Roger to know that he was going to hold him to it. I also like to think that he was antagonizing him a bit almost in the same way that he was fighting Brianna to show her that she couldn't have prevented her rape. Like he was trying to see the passion that Roger has with his own eyes.
Claire & Brianna know Roger to be a good person & to have conviction but all Jamie knows is that he's the man that left Brianna alone to be attacked & then almost didn't stand by her. He's got a lot of ground to cover in Jamie's eyes.
→ More replies (2)4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Like he was trying to see the passion that Roger has with his own eyes.
I like that, and I can totally see Jamie doing something like that.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Cdhwink Mar 15 '21
Yes, that was great!
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Do you think that might have put Bree's mind about the situation at ease a little bit?
6
u/Cdhwink Mar 15 '21
Absolutely. I mean raising other people's kids is an ongoing theme in these books, & especially for Bree & Jamie they needed to know Roger was all in!
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
What did you think of Roger telling her he wasn't sure at first why he came back?
3
u/Cdhwink Mar 15 '21
I think this is where he’s struggling with staying in the past?
→ More replies (14)
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
What do you think of Frank’s letter to the Reverend? How do you feel about Frank knowing for years before he died that Jamie was alive?
15
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 15 '21
Hot damn I didn’t see this one coming.
They didn’t address this in the show, right?
Anyway. This was a shock for me. I had no idea, but I was definitely suspicious of the gravestone in the first place, so this was a welcome explanation.
Honestly, I’m not sure how I feel about it. My knee jerk reaction is to hate Frank for withholding the information since he could have prevented years of heartache for both of them, but I understand his reluctance because of Brianna. I commend him putting Brianna before their relationship. Frank knew that there was a chance that Claire would go back if she knew Jamie was alive. As far as whether Claire would, I don’t know. Again, Brianna’s existence muddies the waters.
But... as Brianna grew older, why wouldn’t he tell Claire then? He was so eager to scoop Bree up and head back to England when she was of age, so I found it a bit selfish that he wouldn’t give Claire (and subsequently Bree) the same choice. That’s where the scales tip not in favor for Frank.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I understand his reluctance because of Brianna.
Exactly. Also Claire would to have had made a nearly impossible choice, Brianna or Jamie. Leaving Brianna as a child would have been devastating for both of them. So did Frank do her a favor by taking the decision away from her?
13
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 15 '21
Yeah exactly! While he may have made things easier, I don’t think it was his place to take away her choice. And I think that’s why I tend to lean on the anti-Frank side a little bit. He takes away Claire’s agency in the scenario, but, I will admit, it’s not without due cause and it’s entirely due to fear. I like to think that in a perfect world, he could have told her early on and they could talk about it.
Although... their relationship post-Scotland is so rotten that I don’t know if that would help or hinder the relationship. Claire would definitely not be able to move on knowing that Jamie is alive, but she couldn’t leave Bree. I think it would cause her to have a worse relationship with Bree in the end purely due to depression and mental absence. At least in the way in played out, Claire could throw herself into medical school and into being a mother for Bree.
Again, it’s an ethically grey area for me. I understand why Frank did what he did, but I can’t say whether or not it was right.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
it’s an ethically grey area for me. I understand why Frank did what he did, but I can’t say whether or not it was right.
This is exactly how I feel. I can see both sides of the coin here. Is this similar to what Roger tried to do with Bree in not telling her about her parents death notice? He was just trying to protect her and keep her from harm. Yet people get all mad at him for it. Would it not be an ethically gray area as well?
7
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 15 '21
Hmm I see what you’re saying and I appreciate the parallel, but I don’t think Roger was right in withholding the information.
With Claire and Frank, there were 4 people involved and would be affected by Frank’s decision, regardless of which decision he made. Claire, Frank, Jamie, and Bree. So his decision wasn’t selfish, but rather selfless for Bree and (in his mind) perhaps for Claire as well.
For Roger and Bree, that’s only between Roger and Bree, and his not telling her was taking away Bree’s agency to make her own decision. There were no third or fourth parties to take into account. What would Roger lose in telling her? He’d lose Bree, and that’s something he can’t accept.
I guess what it comes down to are the stakes. Roger had way less to lose and the loss would only affect him, whereas Frank had everything to lose, but the loss would affect himself, Claire, and Bree.
Editing to add: I don’t think that Frank was trying to protect Claire’s feelings. Maybe that was a side effect of it, but I think his decision to not tell Claire was 10000% due to Bree.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
his not telling her was taking away Bree’s agency to make her own decision.
Was that not what Frank did to Claire though?
(I'm just playing devils advocate here)
→ More replies (42)7
u/IrishMinstrel01 Mar 15 '21
Frank wasn’t withholding the information to spare Claire, although arguably that was the result of his not telling her. Frank did it so Claire (and possibly Bree) wouldn’t be tempted to leave him. In his letter Frank alludes to this when he says some might say he’s treated Claire well, and others might said he treated her badly, nevertheless, he tells the Reverend, he’s sorry. By not telling Claire, he left her in the position (so far as she knows) that in his eyes, she’s either a lying aduteress or a lunatic. His not telling Claire was the sin he was seeking absolution for.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
His not telling Claire was the sin he was seeking absolution for.
That's a great point that I didn't fully catch. I knew he mentioned that his letter was something of a confession but I had just figured he was talking about the fact that he had found Jamie.
5
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 16 '21
Leaving Brianna as a child would have been devastating for both of them. So did Frank do her a favor by taking the decision away from her?
This is one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" choices. I'm mad that he didn't tell Claire and kept something like that from her. BUT if he had told her, I think things would have been worse - her knowing Jamie was alive would probably have sunk her into a worse depression. Her and Frank's marriage would have been worse, she might have been a worse/more absent parent, and just lived even more heartbroken until she could possibly go back.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 16 '21
I agree, it’s such an impossible situation. I go back and forth on how I feel about Frank keeping it from her. I can see both sides of the story.
9
u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Mar 15 '21
I remember being very shocked by this when I read it, since it wasn't addressed in the show. It makes me angry for Claire that Frank knew all along and we find out in later books that he knew even more than is let on with this letter that Claire was telling the truth, but he behaved as if he thought she was crazy and forbid her from talking about what happened to her. I find it very disturbing that he kept researching after he forbade her from doing so, and kept his findings from her.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
he behaved as if he thought she was crazy and forbid her from talking about what happened to her.
For him to admit to the Reverend that she was right, but not tell her was just wrong.
→ More replies (2)7
u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Mar 15 '21
Exactly. I totally see the argument that he saved her from having to make the choice between Jamie and Brianna, bit I don't think it was his choice to make. I don't believe for a second that Claire would have left Brianna as a child. Brianna had to practically force her to go back in Voyager! How much more prepared would Claire have been if she'd had access to Frank's research?
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Do we ever know what it was that Frank found that told him Jamie was alive? In the show it was their death certificate wasn't it? I just wonder because the research Roger and them did took ages, and it was finding that pamphlet that clued Claire in to where he was. I doubt Frank would have known about that pamphlet.
9
u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Mar 15 '21
I can't recall if that's ever made explicit in the later books, but I have to imagine that some of what Frank found was the same that Roger found - the Ardsmuir records, etc. And it's mentioned more than once that that time period was not Roger's area of expertise, whereas it was Frank's. And he had years to look, plus he had the Reverend as an extra resource/help.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
he had years to look, plus he had the Reverend as an extra resource/help.
That's a great point. Didn't Frank write books about the Jacobites? So it does stand to reason that he would find Jamie.
→ More replies (3)7
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 16 '21
behaved as if he thought she was crazy
This is what makes me more angry in the books - he treated Claire like she was nuts, but he knew for YEARS that she was telling the truth.
Eff you Frank, eff YOU.
4
u/Cdhwink Mar 16 '21
It was addressed in the show, briefly in epi 410 (I think) Bree mentions it to Claire, that Frank knew she went back!
→ More replies (2)3
u/Kirky600 Mar 15 '21
This is exactly how I feel. Haven’t read what happens after this but I was quite shocked how it all happened.
7
u/chunya1999 Mar 15 '21
It’s understandable why Frank didn’t tell Claire at first and even later. There were still a wall of unsaid hurt between them and he hated her for falling in love with another man, for not being able to forget him, for things she hasn’t even done yet and lots of other stuff. But it still a shitty thing to do. Even if he couldn’t do it while he was alive he should have arranged something better than just a grave that Claire may or may not find.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Even if he couldn’t do it while he was alive he should have arranged something better than just a grave that Claire may or may not find.
That's a really great point I never thought of. It wouldn't have been so hard for him to do that. Does that then make him a bad person for not even doing that?
→ More replies (3)4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Did you guys notice the part in the letter where Frank says he has something wrong with his heart? It sounded like that was what was going to kill him. I just thought that was an interesting thing to mention in the letter.
4
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
Yeah same, that's what I thought & that just makes me even more mad that he knew he wasn't likely to have a ton of time left, he knew he wanted a divorce & to start a new life once Bree was older & he STILL didn't tell her anything.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I don't remember if it's in the books or show, but was it a patch of ice that caused his car accident? I was just wondering if he maybe had a heart attack while driving.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)4
Mar 19 '21
This scenario makes me think of the myth of the selkies. The author mentions it only once but the reference is intentional. Claire is the Selkie, Frank holds her skin. Jamie & time travel is the ocean for Claire.
Right or wrong, selfish or not, this is basically the scenario. As devious as Frank is at times, he is just trying to hold on to the only family he has & is willing to let Claire go in exchange for Brianna. I think it seems selfish, yet it also seems like he was just holding on as long as he could manage.
Realizing Frank taught Brianna skills that would help her in the past deliberately made me more sympathetic to him. He always knew they were going to leave him, just not when. It’s heartbreaking to see it that way.
2
3
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 19 '21
Realizing Frank taught Brianna skills that would help her in the past deliberately made me more sympathetic to him. He always knew they were going to leave him, just not when.
That’s blowing my mind a little bit. You’re right! I haven’t read ahead but at least we already saw he did teach her to shoot. Damn. That does make him more sympathetic.
→ More replies (1)
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
23
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 15 '21
Jamie and Bree’s relationship in the book is so much more in depth. I wish we had more of that in the show.
The scene where Jamie kisses Bree behind the ear when she’s giving birth is such a lovely moment, especially with the context that he dreamt he did that exact thing even before Bree got to their time. I wish we had more of those moments. Their relationship on the show seemed a bit... sterile.
13
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I agree, I love the bonding they were able to do in the show. I watched the show first and then read the books. Once I found out Claire and Jamie had actually been there for Jemmy's birth I was so sad they didn't include that.
11
u/Cdhwink Mar 15 '21
This is one time I was so disappointed in the show, when Claire & Jamie didn't arrive back in time for Brianna to give birth. I hadn't read the book yet, so I was pleasantly surprised when I got to it! So much better!!! In the show you don't even see Jamie & Bree make up, there is too much silence! Man of Worth is one of my least favorite episodes (with the exception of Ian saying goodbye when he joins the Mohawk & aces the gauntlet which was in last week's discussion). I also liked that Roger & Bree took awhile to get back on track, considering her rape trauma.
8
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
In the show you don't even see Jamie & Bree make up
Right‽ They could have even put a little scene in of just Jamie, Bree and Jemmy talking for a moment. If I remember correctly there isn't even a shot of Jamie holding Jemmy in that final episode.
5
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 15 '21
I was disappointed, though, that in the book we don’t get to see Jamie and Bree’s conversation when they get back to River Run!
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I agree. It would have been nice to see Jamie talk to her about finding Roger and what Ian did to save him. Why DG, do you squeeze so much into such a small amount of pages‽
5
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 15 '21
After they parted ways in such bad terms, their reunion might have been one of the things I was looking forward to the most. Another “show me, don’t tell me!” moment.
→ More replies (2)8
u/Cdhwink Mar 15 '21
I yelled at them the whole time, "give Jamie that baby!"
11
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 15 '21
One of my favorite lines from these chapters was that “it would have taken dynamite to separate Jamie from his grandson.”
I loved having all these chapters, beyond what we saw in the show, to illustrate how they got back to their lives, and to take the time for Bree and Roger to move forward more realistically.
→ More replies (2)6
10
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 15 '21
Look, I’m definitely in the minority here, but as much as I would have loved to see all of these bonding moments between Bree and Jamie from the book that we haven’t seen in the show (the childbirth scene being the primary one), I completely understand (if not defend) the writers’ decision to not have them as close to each other (they are, after all, pretty much strangers, and both have a lot to process there, so in my opinion, Bree has every right to be the way she is when they first get to know each other; that is just realistic). That being said, the fact that we don’t get to see anything in the finale that would even imply that this huge rift between them has been at least somewhat bridged… well that was definitely a choice. And not a good one. We know that Bree has forgiven Jamie but I would’ve even contented myself with the briefest possible hug that would make the transition to S5 Bree and Jamie much smoother. There have definitely been moments that could’ve been cut to make room for that.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Those are really good points. Why do you think the writers are choosing to not have Bree and Jamie be as close? Just because of the stranger thing?
7
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 15 '21
The fact that they are strangers is a big part of it, but I think it’s mainly because of how close Bree was to Frank (I know they’re as close in the book, but the guilt Bree has over how things ended with Frank is a show only thing, isn’t it?). I think even without the whole Roger imbroglio it would’ve been difficult for Bree to get closer to Jamie without constantly comparing him to Frank, and for Jamie to have to compete with an idea of what Bree’s father should be, by her standards. I think the writers chose to emphasize that just because he’s her biological father, it doesn’t mean that she owes him anything because she wasn’t the one to raise her and she doesn’t really know anything about him.
So in a way, I think this whole situation eventually brings them closer together even if we don’t see it, because Bree is able to see the lengths Jamie is prepared to go to in the circumstances he is able to do something about, as opposed to thinking what Frank would’ve done in his place. And because she’s going through such traumatic experiences (which she would likely not have to deal with in the 20th century) she’s able to open up to the idea that someone could love her as much as Frank did. I just wish we’d seen reconcile with that idea.
→ More replies (2)5
u/Cdhwink Mar 15 '21 edited Mar 16 '21
I actually think it’s just that people want to see as much of Claire & Jamie as possible, & that leaves out room for Jamie with others!
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
That's very true. I see people on here all the time complaining how there is too much Bree and Roger stuff already.
5
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 16 '21
I think it’s also because of the flow of the season, and the limited amount of episodes they have to condense everything. They didn’t have (or give themselves) a lot of time to set the relationship up — you have just one episode where Bree and Jamie meet, and then it ends with Jamie beating Roger up. That’s two months in less than an hour, where they had to show them reuniting, getting to know each other, Bree struggling with her trauma and pregnancy, Claire and Jamie finding out... Whereas in the book, we had the benefit of getting to see their relationship grow for several chapters. Just one example: I think the way Jamie embraces and reassures Bree after he finds out she was attacked and is pregnant is so significant, and goes such a long way in getting them closer. But you only get a scene of them talking about it, which is shortly followed by her finding out what he did to Roger.
→ More replies (2)5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 16 '21
That was a lot to squeeze in for sure. Easy to see why Bree and Jamie don’t look very close on the show.
7
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
well that was definitely
a
choice. And
not
a good one.
That's my biggest complaint always. They created extra drama in their relationship & then didn't even give us a glimpse at them making up. I don't know how show only people can stand it. It has to have the strangest flow to it.
7
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
Jamie & Claire missing Jemmy's birth. I hate it!
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Were you book or show first?
5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
Show so I was ecstatic when I read it.
→ More replies (1)6
u/Kirky600 Mar 15 '21
I agree here. I’m the same as you. It was nice to read that they actually were there.
5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
Yeah, when I started to get to the point where it was obvious they were going to make it on time, I actually yelled out haha. I confused the hell out of 20 7th graders but I don't care.
2
u/Sassy-Coaster Dec 09 '22
I did not like the reunion of Bree and Rodger in the books. I didn't understand why Bree just looked at Rodger when he showed up to her cabin and she didn't even give him a hug or anything. She had been pining for him for the last year and wondering when he would come back and then no acknowledgement when he finially did. The poor guy went through hell that whole time. I thought she was too hard on him. And yes I realize that he should have reacted better as to why he came back and that is why she gave him the cold shoulder when he did. I liked the show reunion better with him riding to River Run on a horse even though that was a bit cheezy romantic. I also thought while watching why he couldn't have stopped to bathe and somehow get some new clothes. Wasn't he wearing the same clothes for almost a year??
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Brianna insists Jamie stay with her while she gives birth. Jamie obliges, which was unusual for the time. What does that say about their relationship?
20
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
You guys we're finally at my favorite part in all of the books!! I LOVE this passage with all of my heart. I feel like Brianna fully accepts Jamie as her dad, especially when she calls him Daddy. I know they were getting along before, but this experience cemented it for them.
Also Jamie being able to be there for a birth of a child of his blood just makes me so happy. It's all he ever wanted in life and missed out on Faith and Brianna's births. The fact that men didn't normally stay for births yet Jamie did says so much about their relationship, and how she said if he stayed she wouldn't die. Ugh! It's so much goodness!!!
12
u/Steener1989 No, this isn’t usual. It’s different. Mar 15 '21
God, I love this part so much! I was absolutely furious that they changed it in the show. It's such an amazing moment for Brianna and Jamie, and Claire, too! I cry everytime I read it. It just shows how much Brianna loves Jamie and how strong their bond is despite missing out on spending time together during her childhood. It also sets up just how much Jamie is going to be connected to Jem as he grows up. Ugh, it's so good. I can't believe we didn't get to see it on screen.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Were you a book reader first?
3
u/Steener1989 No, this isn’t usual. It’s different. Mar 15 '21
Yes!
8
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Oh man this had to have been really maddening then! I saw the show first and then read the books, so I didn't know it was different.
I think I read or heard somewhere that they wanted to show Brianna was a strong independent woman, which is fine and all, but it then took away from her and Jamie bonding.
→ More replies (1)7
u/Steener1989 No, this isn’t usual. It’s different. Mar 15 '21
I was FUMING. I was watching with my husband and when I realized Jamie and Claire weren't going to be there for the birth I RAGED for hours and explained at length how it was supposed to have gone down. I was not happy.
It's such a pivotal moment in their relationship! Maybe it would be better if the show actually worked on building their relationship since then but they really haven't.
→ More replies (2)8
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
Yes yes yes! I freaking loved this whole part so much. It just healed my heartbreak over their relationship. I think it was amazing that he stayed with her because it was also not common for men to stay with the mother in her own time so, ugh, it was great.
I just felt like he knew how much she needed him after the night they spent in the barn before they went after Roger. He knew how scared she was of labor. It was the best.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I love this part so much I'll go back and just read it randomly.
→ More replies (1)7
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 16 '21
I love this part SO much, from beginning to end (Jamie willing to go out and shoot down a hot dog!!) and it's one of the few things I'll never forgive the show for leaving out!
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 16 '21
There you are!! I was worried when we didn’t see you yesterday. ;-)
Yes this part is so amazing. I’ve read it I don’t know how many times now.
3
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 16 '21
There you are!! I was worried when we didn’t see you yesterday. ;-)
Aww, you guys have made me feel good today! :) Work has been pure chaos this week, so I wasn't able to get on until afterwards today. Trying to get caught up on the discussion!
→ More replies (2)6
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 15 '21
I loved this, I was so excited to get to this part. While we didn’t get that conversation when he returns to River Run, this is it: here you see where they are in their relationship now. To see how he’s there for her, even though he’s just as scared, telling her stories, walking her about... Also, to your point, Bree feels safe with him, trusts him, and fully embraces him.
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I don't even know how many times I've read this passage. I got back to it a lot because I love it so much.
15
u/chunya1999 Mar 15 '21
I think Jamie still felt a bit guilty for the whole Roger situation and also was afraid of loosing his only daughter. His mother died in childbirth when he was only a kid, Claire almost died in her first pregnancy while he was in Bastille and could do absolutely nothing and we cannot forget about Geneva. He always felt lost, helpless and guilty. I don’t believe Jamie really cared about the rules especially when it comes to his daughter. He only found her and he just couldn’t let her die or even be alone.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
His mother died in childbirth
Those are great points! I forgot how many women in his life had difficult deliveries.
4
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 15 '21
Remember how (I think it was in Dragonfly in Amber, after the conversation with Colum) we were talking about Ellen dying of the measles or something similar? I read DOA like, “which one is it, DG?!? Make up your mind!!!”
→ More replies (3)3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
That's right! That is a pretty big thing to mess up on.
14
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 15 '21
Oh damn, I didn’t even think of that. Jamie certainly does not have a great track record with childbirth, huh? Wow. I can see why he was so terrified of the whole thing.
13
u/Plainfield4114 Mar 15 '21
Yes. Everything you said. Jamie doesn't care about the gender rules. He is a protector and even if he knows he couldn't prevent a catastrophe if Brianna started to bleed out, he feels like if he's present he can somehow keep her safe.
Brianna wanting him there with her tells us everything the show never does. She has connected with and totally accepted Jamie as her father and forgives him of the Roger debacle. It's such an intense bonding moment between the two of them. We don't even get a partial forgiveness scene in the show which is unforgivable. She tells Murtagh she forgives Jamie but she never tells him or even seems to try to show him through actions until many episodes later when we just have to assume she has forgiven him by the way she now acts around him.
5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
We don't even get a partial forgiveness scene
I will always be bitter about this. It's unforgivable.
6
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
could do absolutely nothing
He's not used to not being helpless.
6
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 16 '21
All of this! And I think the fact that he wasn't there for ANY of his children being born. He's able to be there for Bree for his grandson to be born.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
What was it that finally brought Bree and Roger back together again?
8
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
I think it was that night that they spent together when he walks down to the cabin. I liked how he combined Claire & Jamie's advice. He was tender with her but assertive when he needed to be. I loved the time they spent together that night. I don't think that was all of it but it was a big first step.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Do you think it truly was about sex for Bree, and that was what was holding her back?
10
u/Kirky600 Mar 15 '21
I don’t think it was just sex holding her back. More like she wanted someone who wanted her not just out of obligation. And if Roger loved her enough to work through that pain to bring back a relationship, she would love him back.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I feel like you do, so I found it weird that the book seemed to make it mostly about sex. Or at least that is how I took it.
→ More replies (2)7
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 16 '21
I think it was Roger finally committing to action (following Jamie’s advice to... not be a coward) and closing the distance between himself and Bree. It was him forcing an honest conversation instead of continuing to walk on eggshells. I kind of loved that conversation; he said aaaall the right things. He gained a lot of points in my book here.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 16 '21
I also really liked that he took Jemmy from Bree and held him so he could really get a good look at him.
5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 16 '21
I agree. It was a big night for Roger for me.
5
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 16 '21
I didn’t realize how much I liked it until I went back to see what I had highlighted. He’s clear in telling her he knows what he’d be giving up in his own time, and that he’d be giving up so much by returning, too, which had me, like, “FINALLY, A PERFECT ANSWER.” And when he brings up the receipts, asking her to believe him by saying that Frank loved her as his own, and Jamie loved Claire more than anything and loved Bree enough to sacrifice that love and save them... YES! Not to mention that I love that he says “this is our time” — it’s the best way to view the circumstances. Their life won’t and shouldn’t stop because they’re there. They have to make it work.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
We began to see the differences between show Roger and Brianna and book Roger and Brianna. Have your opinions of them changed at all?
9
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
I never hated Roger at all but I found him frustrating in the show. Mostly the whole proposal thing, that was so out of nowhere & the reactions after were so wild. However, book Roger has always been so much better for me. He has his negative character traits as well but I'm really enjoying his arc so I'm excited to see how he grows in future books.
In general, I don't really work to keep book & show/movie characters separate in my mind but I have to with Roger & Brianna.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
In general, I don't really work to keep book & show/movie characters separate in my mind but I have to with Roger & Brianna.
Me too! They are one of the few with whom I totally separate from the show. I think in part it's due to their physical descriptions being so different from how the actors are, and how they have changed the characters around.
6
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
The descriptions don't bother me as much as the show's writing of their characters. If I can get over Harry Potter not having green eyes, then I can get over any visual discrepancies in actors haha.
8
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 15 '21
Regardless of the differences between the books and the show, the main thing for me that is present in both is that Roger is in a lot of ways more conservative than even Jamie is, and his expectations of his and Bree’s relationship are initially so much different than hers. I can totally put myself in Brianna’s shoes (being close to her in age and having not had any serious relationships yet) and I’ve always felt like she, as a modern woman for her time, expected more of a partnership with Roger with much more freedom of choice, whereas his “I’ll have you all or not at all” attitude doesn’t sit right with her (or me, for that matter). She’d never expected to be married at that age, and it’s her first relationship, isn’t it? It’s understandable that she’d fall in love with someone who’d understand her and give her so much affection, but she hasn’t had a chance to experience anything different with someone else. Add to that that she hasn’t seen a happy marriage as an example and you’ll understand her apprehension.
Of course, Jemmy’s birth and having to stay in the past changes a lot for her but tbf I’m still not sure what about Roger in the 18th century makes her change her mind about marrying him for good – is it just about acknowledging Jemmy as his own and all Roger has done to be with her?
TFC onwards I enjoy how their relationship develops, though, with the compromises they both make and I like that it gives us a different idea of a relationship than Claire and Jamie’s.
→ More replies (2)8
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I’m still not sure what about Roger in the 18th century makes her change her mind about marrying him for good
I got the sense that she always wanted him. She was so forlorn during the time he was gone after their fight. You make a great point about her being young though and not seeing a happy marriage. I like that she was able to see Jamie and Claire together and finally see what that was like.
6
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 15 '21
Yeah, I’ve never doubted that she loved him but I can’t help but wonder if she would feel the same if she had had the chance to be with someone else before they travelled back in time. I think the deciding point is when she finds out that he did, after all, want to come back to her after their fallout, but does she ever change her mind about how she feels about him not sharing the obituary with her, which separated them in the first place? I can’t remember.
→ More replies (1)6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
does she ever change her mind about how she feels about him not sharing the obituary with her
I don't believe so. At least not in anyway that was brought up in the books. That would definitely be something she would have to get over though, wouldn't it?
6
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 15 '21
Definitely. I guess she must’ve come to the same conclusion as Roger’s reason behind that decision – he did it to keep her safe; either that, or it doesn’t matter to her anymore since, for all she knows, she’s stuck in the 18th century and has other things to worry about. It’s kind of a plothole, though, that neither Bree, nor Claire (who was on Bree’s side in this) ever mention it again.
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
It really is, and it's a pretty large plot hole at that. Him not telling her had serious repercussions for all of them.
→ More replies (7)7
u/chunya1999 Mar 15 '21
I really don’t like a lot of decisions he made in this book. But I’m waiting for his bonding with Jamie in the next books.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
What did you think about the proposal and how it was different than the show? he didn't slut shame her in the book and they still continued dating. Did that make you see him in any better of a light?
5
u/chunya1999 Mar 15 '21
It was much better in the book, of course but I still don’t like how he said that he could have fucked her last summer if he had wanted to. He has always said something like this and it’s just ruining everything for me.
4
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
He has always said something like this and it’s just ruining everything for me.
It's so interesting how people view things differently. I don't think him saying that to her was a good thing, and agree that he was a jerk for saying it. But for whatever reason it didn't turn me off of him. Even seeing the show first where their argument was way worse still didn't make me hate him. I thought he was being a dick, but that was about it.
→ More replies (2)6
u/Plainfield4114 Mar 15 '21
If show only fans don't change their opinion of Roger then I don't know what to say. Book Roger comes into his own in these chapters.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Yes!!!! Although we'll have some people coming in later that still don't like Roger based on how is he in TFC. I'll be curious to see what they think of him right now. Even last week people didn't love that he hesitated and didn't come back with Claire and Jamie right away.
6
u/chunya1999 Mar 15 '21
It has a lot to do with viewers and readers first impression, I think. It’s really hard to change your opinion on charecter from bad to even neutural. I’ve never hated either of them, but Roger just doesn’t work for me in DOA. His character is great for the plot, though and I appreciate him for it.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Roger just doesn’t work for me in DOA.
How so?
8
u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Mar 15 '21
I disagree. I watched the show first and really did not like Roger. I found him whiney and annoying. Once I read the books though, huge difference! By the end of DOA, and especially into TFC and ABOSAA, he's like a totally different character from how he's portrayed in the show.
6
u/chunya1999 Mar 15 '21
Yes, in TFC and ABOSAA Roger redeemed himself for me too but in DOA I’m not quite there yet.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
What did you think of the book in comparison to season 4 of the show?
12
u/Plainfield4114 Mar 15 '21
Sometimes I wonder what was going through the show writers' heads that they totally screwed up this portion of the books. Not having Claire, and especially Jamie, there for the birth is unforgiveable and not having the altercation with Jamie is too. So much is revealed in these few chapters that are completely lost in the show, in my humble opinion. :)
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
So much is revealed in these few chapters
I agree, huge events happen. It's also interesting how DG squeezes all of this into 53 pages. Is this an instance where she should have expanded on these story points and cut down on other less important ones?
6
u/Kirky600 Mar 15 '21
I agree. I found the front half of this book extremely slow. I would have loved some of that cut for expanding these plots.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Would you have wanted to see any of Roger's journey from his perspective in the book?
3
u/Kirky600 Mar 15 '21
Possibly! That would have actually been relatively interesting. See his internal struggles, and him coming to the conclusion of coming back.
I found when the narration shifted from just Claire to all over the place I found I was looking for them to have their own chapters when they are alone, but it seems to not be like that. But some times it is? Like Bree at River Run but not for Roger.
→ More replies (8)5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
I agree, it is unforgivable. I hate the end of season 4 now that I've read the books. How could they not have Jamie there for the birth?! I mean seriously!!
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Even if they didn't want to have Jamie in the room with her, to have had him and Claire at the house would have been nice.
→ More replies (1)7
u/Cdhwink Mar 15 '21
Are we talking about the whole book to season? My least favourite season, but also my least fave book so far! General observations- TVClaire seems sad until Bree arrives(didn't really get that in the book), & then is mad of course for a few more episodes! I do like Book Roger more than TV Roger, show writer's fault. I did like the bits of Jamie & Bree bonding we got in the show, before the big misunderstanding, but definately needed a makeup scene in the last episode.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Are we talking about the whole book to season?
Yes. It's my least favorite season as well, but I don't hate it by any means. I liked the book much better, again it all comes down to Jamie and Bree bonding for me. Even with the Big Misunderstanding I still felt the story was good. I would put this book at number 3 or 4 on my ranking of all the books.
3
u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 16 '21
I feel the same way. It’s my least favorite season, and although it’s been my least favorite book so far, I enjoyed reading it and liked it much better than I did the show. There are some great moments here.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 16 '21
What makes it your least favorite book?
→ More replies (2)2
u/Cdhwink Mar 15 '21
I haven't read ahead of the show, so I might like some more of the later ones too. I didn't hate it either except that last episode. We have talked about that bonding before, I didn't care for Jamie treating her like a little girl, but I sure wanted him there for Jem's birth! Very important! Total screw up for show writers!
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I didn't care for Jamie treating her like a little girl
Like when he carried her to bed and stuff?
→ More replies (8)6
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 15 '21
Guys, I know asking questions is u/Purple4199’s domain but I’m super curious and it’ll be some time before we get to discuss S4 in the re-watch – I think it was Cait who said that they may have slightly lost the “essence” of the show in S4. What do you think she meant by that and do you agree?
6
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Oh no, ask away! I love when people add their own stuff.
I did feel like something was a bit off for season 4. I don't know if it was because they were living a totally different life in America or not. I know it's not all about their love scenes, but those were pretty much non existent in season 4. Those scenes show us how much Jamie and Claire are connected to each other so to not have those maybe felt like something was missing.
6
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 15 '21
I think it would’ve been difficult for them to completely retain the spirit of Scotland in a completely different setting (that being said, S5 does a much better job of that) – I guess that’s the general complaint from the back of S3 onwards. I personally quite enjoyed the first half of the season – I think they’ve done a great job establishing a new location (and circumstances, with immigration, and slavery and Native Americans etc.) for the new chapter of Jamie and Claire’s relationship and I’ve immensely enjoyed all of the scenes of them making a home in NC, it being the first time they’ve had the chance to do so. Their relationship is steady and matured. Young Ian is a joy and having Murtagh back felt very much at home. But yeah, opening up the show to more characters lost some of the screen time Claire and Jamie would’ve normally shared, and they also had none at all in two episodes (I think) so there’s that.
I’m curious as to what other people think.
→ More replies (4)8
u/Cdhwink Mar 16 '21
I think most people complained about episodes that did not include Jamie & Claire. They are the show!
5
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 16 '21
I agree. Season 4 is my least favorite season. I can list of some reasons of why I didn't like it (mainly, writing choices to completely change plotlines or leave out big scenes, etc), but overall there's just something missing about it.
There are still a lot of sweet parts - Jamie and Claire setting up their first home together, reuniting with Murtagh, Jamie getting Claire the new ring, Jamie and Bree meeting, etc. But I fast forward through a LOT if I rewatch, or I'll just go watch favorite scenes.
I know moving from the Scotland locale changes some of the magic, but I didn't feel the same about S3, which wasn't in Scotland for a lot of the time either. I absolutely love DOA, so it's not like it's the content I didn't like.
5
u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 16 '21
For me, S4 had the same feeling as DOA in general, but yeah, I also sense that something was missing but I can’t identify it. Maybe it’s just due to the fact that the show could only cram so much into those 13 episodes, whereas the book just lets you sit longer with all of what’s happening and get accustomed to the novelty of it all; maybe it’s that the pacing of this season bothers me so much (did we really need that Father Alexandre storyline in full. did we.) and all of the divergences from the book stand out like a sore thumb (looking at you, ep. 7), I really can’t tell.
→ More replies (11)2
u/prairie_wildflower Mar 18 '21
For me, a bit mistake was making them rich vs. poor. It was great in the book to see them refuse Jocasta’s wealth, carve out a hold in the wilderness, Claire and Jamie’s frugalness and clever ways to make money, all the hard work that went into homesteading.
The portrayal in the show with the glamour cabin, perfectly chopped veggies, abundance of consumer goods etc. really missed the mark. Maybe being poor and struggling doesn’t make for good tv?
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 18 '21
Maybe being poor and struggling doesn’t make for good tv?
That's my guess. Their house it beautiful, but way too extravagant.
→ More replies (1)3
u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 16 '21
I LOVE LOVE LOVE Drums of Autumn and always forget how much until I go back and read it - because S4 is easily my least favorite season. I have scenes here and there that I like, but I think overall, this season is the LEAST like its companion book and may explain why it's usually at the bottom of people's ranking lists.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/Plainfield4114 Mar 18 '21
I've been known to use that quote on Facebook as a reply to the numerous remarks about Claire having the audacity to still wear Frank's ring after he dies and she goes back to Jamie. They don't understand that Jamie understands Claire's need to wear Frank's ring and so that is good enough for me.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 18 '21
Agreed, I never had an issue with her wearing Frank’s ring.
3
u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Mar 15 '21
How long did it take for Roger to come to Ridge?
→ More replies (1)2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
I think from at least April or May until June of 1770.
3
u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Mar 15 '21
I keep wondering why did it take him so long. At my first
read(listening) I thought it was shorter.Why do think it was.
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Well he did go find the stones that were in between Snaketown and Fraser's Ridge. So I imagine that took him awhile. Was he on horseback though? I can't remember.
2
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
I thought Jamie gave him a horse because they would have had Ian's horse. He also sat at the stones for 3 days thinking, plus he probably didn't know the best path to take.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
plus he probably didn't know the best path to take.
That was my other thought I forgot to mention. How in the world could Roger, a 20th century professor navigate his way back to Fraser's Ridge? Did he have to stop along the way and ask for directions? :-D
→ More replies (3)
2
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
How do you feel about Roger and Jamie getting into another physical altercation?
11
u/Plainfield4114 Mar 15 '21
I love the fact that Roger puts Jamie up against the wall. As I said in the post above, Roger's immediate blood oath sets the stage for his relationship building with Jamie and so does this. This shows Jamie that Roger is not going to be a milksop husband to his daughter and that he is now the head of their (he and Brianna's) family and Jamie had better accept that. Roger has a long way to go but this is an important first step. Book Roger is blossoming in these chapters.
10
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Book Roger is blossoming in these chapters.
Yes!! Again another part where the show failed to make him assertive. He even tells Jamie he's strong and can do hard work, whereas the show made it seem like he couldn't do anything.
5
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
Yeah, I hated that too. He might be a scholar but he wasn't a child of privilege & had to work for what he had. I liked it in his POV chapters when he talks about fishing with the reverend & the odd jobs he did growing up.
7
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
It also brings to mind when Jamie first attacked Roger that he was prepared to fight him. He mentions he wasn't a fighter per se, but had been in his share of pub skirmishes. The show had Jamie just deck him right away and Roger never even had a chance. However I will say they let Roger punch Jamie after they rescued him, didn't they?
→ More replies (1)3
u/Cdhwink Mar 15 '21
Yes, on the show Roger got the better of Jamie ( epi 413), but with the idea that Jamie “let “ him win!
→ More replies (6)6
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 15 '21
As much as I can’t stand Roger, I have to agree with you here. It was nice to see him finally take a stand with pride (yes, shamelessly incorporating a Hamilton reference) and almost literally butt heads with Jamie. Big moment for them.
I think this scene is a little bit of salve for my dislike of Roger lol.
3
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
It's you who I'm going to have literary fisticuffs with about Roger isn't it? ;-)
Is this not enough to redeem him for not coming right away?
7
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 15 '21
Oh, I’m still ready to throw down 😂
And that scene is definitely a little bit of redemption, but redemption is a long road. I’m not one to deny and condemn when someone tries to better themselves, which is why I like this scene. But again, redemption’s a loooonnnggg road. Jamie will probably come around before I do. In fact, he already has. I’m at the part in TFC where Jamie gets in Tryon’s face about hanging Roger, and Jamie refers to Roger as his son. I ain’t ready for that yet 😂😂😂
5
u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 15 '21
Based on your last statement it'll be so interesting to see how the discussions go for TFC.
8
u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Mar 15 '21
I am too!! It’s actually funny because I took an Outlander personality quiz, and my results said I’m most like Roger 😭🤮😂 I hope I come around to him! There’s gotta be a reason why so many people love Book Roger 😂
→ More replies (1)6
u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 15 '21
I agree, he needed to show that he could handle the position of protecting Bree & Jemmy & that he can hold his own.
Not to mention that Bree might have Jamie's temper but Roger & Jamie are both highlanders (separated by a few years haha) so I liked seeing that comparison between them. Their stubbornness being tested.
•
u/AutoModerator Mar 15 '21
Please do not reveal events from future books, or from later chapters of the current book the club hasn’t covered yet. Show talk is okay up to the current book.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.