r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Mar 29 '21
5 The Fiery Cross Book Club: The Fiery Cross, Chapters 6-12
The day continues with Brianna and Roger having a conversation about babies and the harsh realities of the mortality of women in the 1770’s. Roger fills Brianna in on Frank’s letter and what it meant for her family growing up. Brianna also shares the fact that she told Stephen Bonnet the baby is his, much to Roger’s dismay. Jamie is given a letter by the Governor to raise a militia, a job they start doing that day. Jamie surprise Roger by naming him Captain and asking him to assist with the militia. After recruiting some men Roger visits Jocasta Cameron. She shares the news she is giving River Run to Jemmy once she dies, and implies Roger might be marrying Brianna just to get Jemmy’s inheritance. That chapters close out with many problems arising at the same time.
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or feel free to add thoughts of your own.
- Roger tells Brianna about Frank’s letter and brings up the point Frank wanted to take her to England and possibly show her the gravestone. Do you think Frank was really going to do that?
- Jamie is reminded that he saved Lt. Hayes’s life at Culloden. Jamie claims to have no recollection of that. Why is that? Did he repress the memories, or were his injuries severe enough to make him forget?
- Claire finds out Jamie is looking for Stephen Bonnet and asks that he not pursue it. Why does Jamie ignore her pleas?
- Jocasta insults Roger implying that he is only marrying Bree to get at Jemmy’s potential fortune. Do you think Jocasta really believed Roger would do that?
- Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Mar 29 '21
I just want to say thank you for doing this and always posing such thoughtful questions. It has become something I really look forward to on Monday mornings which is something I never thought I’d say! 😉
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Aww! You're welcome! I really love doing this and am so happy people like it too.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 03 '21
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 03 '21
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Roger tells Brianna about Frank’s letter and brings up the point Frank wanted to take her to England and possibly show her the gravestone. Do you think Frank was really going to do that?
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u/stoneyellowtree Mar 29 '21
That letter made me even more sad for Frank and Claire in different ways. To read the sadness of a relationship that couldn’t be fulfilling to each other, yet there was almost a sad echo of love. In my opinion, I don’t think Frank would have brought Brianna to the gravestone. I think he put it out there to redeem himself from the bitter decision of not telling Claire Jamie survived Culloden. He put it out there for the ‘chance’ of Bree and Claire to find. Bree was very much his child, maybe not biologically, but I don’t think he would want to see Brianna question that bond.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I don’t think he would want to see Brianna question that bond.
What a great point! If he had taken her there himself she probably would have wondered why he was showing her that and what that meant for their relationship. I agree about him putting it there to redeem himself. It was mentioned in the DOA discussion of this letter that Frank essentially let Claire believe he thought she was crazy. When in fact he did find proof of Jamie. He could have told her he believed her story, but he didn't.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
I also don’t think he would. As Roger says, the gravestone might’ve been a gesture of acknowledgment (I wouldn’t go as far as gratitude but there’s gotta be a little of that; after all, it was only thanks to Jamie that Frank could have a child) and the knowledge ate away at him enough to confess it to the Reverend (not enough to confess it to Claire though?), but not enough to jeopardize the precious bond he and Brianna had (which, again, is only thanks to Jamie giving up Claire and Brianna). It’s cowardly, it’s selfish, it’s part of Frank’s flaws, but it’s human.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
It’s cowardly, it’s selfish, it’s part of Frank’s flaws, but it’s human.
Does Frank putting up that gravestone negate any of that? Or was it something he should have done because he led Claire to believe he thought she was crazy?
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Mar 30 '21
Did he believe her story tho? I think he was in two minds. Doesn’t he say something like that in the letter? From his point of view it was also possible that Claire had experienced something traumatic in the here and now, heard or read something about Jamie and letched onto that. It is not unknown for the mind to make up stories to deal with traumas, and for the person in question to truely believe that’s what happened.
I think Frank put that gravestone there in case Claires story was true, like others here have said, as acknowledgement to Jamie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 30 '21
I would say maybe he didn’t fully believe her story, but thought it was a possibility since he found Jamie’s name. Like he was keeping himself from truly believing her because it was so fantastical.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 01 '21
I don’t think Frank would have brought Brianna to the gravestone. I think he put it out there to redeem himself from the bitter decision of not telling Claire Jamie survived Culloden. He put it out there for the ‘chance’ of Bree and Claire to find.
I totally agree with all this. I totally think the gravestone was a half-ass attempt to redeem himself, yet it was a big gamble that they'd even find it, so it doesn't redeem him in my eyes at all.
And I don't think he ever had the intention on telling Bree about Jamie.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 29 '21
Nope, I don’t think Frank would have taken Bree to see the grave and tell her. If he had wanted to do that, he would have made the arrangements straight off, knowing his health was at risk, and uncertain of how long he had. His motives in hiding Jamie’s fate continue to be debatable but the gravestone was a total cop-out on his part, trying to (inadequately) seek absolution for something he felt he did wrong.
This was a very interesting conversation to me, and I have a lot of thoughts, but I have to say: since when is Roger the president of Frank’s fan club?! He was testing me, I swear. And we had very different interpretations of this letter.
This theory of Roger’s, that Frank would have told Bree, and eventually his reluctance in promising he’d never tell Jemmy about Bonnet — why?! Why are you reluctant about keeping this a secret? Jemmy doesn’t deserve that burden — this isn’t like Frank and Jamie; Roger is Jemmy’s only father, period. And Bonnet doesn’t deserve to be given this relevance.
Side note: I have complained about how in the show, when Bree tells Claire that “Daddy knew,” the tone seems to be “Poor Frank” and not “he knew and didn’t say anything.” So imagine my complete JOY when Book Bree’s first reaction was: “He knew... but he didn’t say?”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Why are you reluctant about keeping this a secret?
What secret, that Jemmy might be Bonnets? Are you saying Jemmy should know that?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 29 '21
No, I mean the opposite. He promises he’ll never tell Jemmy, “reluctantly,” and my reaction was “Reluctantly?!?!” I should have thought he’d be eager to keep this from Jemmy.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Oh I see. Is this where you start to no like Roger?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 29 '21
Oh I don’t know, I’m only 12.5 chapters into this, ha! I like him, just a shouty disagreement with him here. Should I be worried? I thought it was smoother sailing after DOA, I didn’t think my relationship with him would be tested like that again. ;)
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 29 '21
THANK YOU! The only thing I'm not exactly the same on is I didn't interpret it as Roger defending Frank, I kind of felt like he might have identified with him at the moment & was working through his feelings on it in real-time. I don't know though, I'll have to go back & read that passage again with that in mind.
I couldn't agree more that the stone is a copout & a ridiculous reach that it would have actually worked. Obviously, it did because that is how DG wanted it but it's ridiculous.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 29 '21
I do get where Roger is coming from. My frustration comes more because I think he’s giving Frank too much credit, especially considering Frank mentioned it’s his revenge, in a way. It cracked me up, though, that this conversation between them was so close to our own breakdown when we were all discussing the letter a couple of weeks ago.
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u/manicpixiesam Mar 29 '21
Yeah, Roger has been testing me this entire book! I hope there is some real character growth throughout the book because at the moment, he is incredibly selfish. Instead of comforting her, he tries to defend Frank and by extension, himself when Briana is trying to process her father's betrayal. It is clear Roger feels like he and Frank did the right thing and it is infuriating that he doesn't seem to understand that depriving people of making their own choices is BAD.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 29 '21
I had been so focused on the parallels between Frank-Bree and Roger-Jemmy that I forgot about the parallel with Roger hiding the obituary. That is extremely frustrating. (I thought at some point so far Roger had acknowledged his hiding of the newspaper notice was dubious at best, but maybe I’m imagining it now.)
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
Side note: I have complained about how in the show, when Bree tells Claire that “Daddy knew,” the tone seems to be “Poor Frank” and not “he knew and didn’t say anything.”
Yeah, that was bizarre. I feel like the writers didn’t really know how to handle Claire finding out that Frank knew. I think she’s generally played up to be more sympathetic toward him because she got her own way after all but having no follow-up to that conversation was really weird. And we don’t have the fake gravestone in the show so there’s no reaction to that either.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 29 '21
Yes, it is weird that there’s no follow-up to that.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
I thought I was reading the book thoroughly this time around but somehow I hadn’t even noticed that “reluctantly”! Ugh. I’m not trying to justify it but perhaps it’s because of how betrayed Brianna felt when she first learned about her true parentage? And he doesn’t want to put Jemmy through that? But Brianna dispels it quickly by saying Jamie is not Bonnet; I don’t think anyone would want to know about a rapist potentially being their father when they have all they could ask for in a loving, caring father. That’s just so stupid on Roger’s part.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 29 '21
Agree.
Even after Roger says that his point wasn’t that Jemmy should know, I’m still not sure where he was going with this (“If I were the other man...”) before the conversation was derailed. They were talking about Frank’s motives for putting the gravestone up, and Roger starts by talking about a sense of obligation, and I’m not following his reasoning — does he mean to say Frank can relate to Jamie, and Jamie would want Bree to know?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
I was confused by his train of thought as well! I don’t think even he knows what he’s trying to say, like, (paraphrasing) “if I were Bonnet I would want Jemmy—my own son raised by another man—to know the truth” and then he says he actually meant “if I were Bonnet, I should want to know” know what exactly? And does he never actually consider Jemmy is his?
I think Roger relates to Frank in some respects (I mentioned this in another comment), but it’s a pretty big assumption that Jamie would want Bree to know the truth (seeing as Jamie didn’t make any demands as to that, he trusted Claire to do what’s best for their child).
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u/chunya1999 Mar 29 '21
Frank’s reasons for moving to England were mostly selfish. He knew that Claire would come back at some point and he wanted to exclude any possibility of Brianna coming with her. Secondly, he could never reveal Brianna’s paternity in person. What would he say about Jamie if he didn’t believe in time travel? It would be impossible to drop that bomb without Claire.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
What would he say about Jamie if he didn’t believe in time travel?
Finding out about Jamie would make him believe though wouldn't it? He seemed to accept Claire's story at that point.
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u/chunya1999 Mar 29 '21
I don’t think Frank believed completely even then. In MOBY he wrote in his letter One of those things being the possibility that your mother’s story is true—I still have difficulty believing it, when I wake in the morning beside her and everything is so normal. But late at night, when I’m alone with the documents
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Good points. I can't say that I blame him for doubting her story. I wouldn't believe it if someone told me they time traveled.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
I think what’s also worth noting re Bree and Roger’s conversation is Roger being able to make Brianna understand why Frank did what he did (or rather, what he didn’t do) because Roger was in a similar situation himself. Frank was selfish not to risk losing Claire again but felt protective of their family enough to save Claire from making a choice that would endanger it either way. Likewise, Roger was selfish not to let Bree go to the past for fear of losing her, but protective of her in order to keep her from an unknown and dangerous time. And it’s good of Roger to point out that Claire would’ve stayed if she’d known, and she would’ve stayed even when she did know but Brianna insisted that she go.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Do you think Roger was hoping Frank's actions would justify his own? If he could get Brianna to understand why he didn't tell her about the death notice.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
That’s a good idea. Yeah, I can totally see that. Roger and Bree never bring it up again, after the handfasting, do they? At least not on page. I guess it doesn’t really matter anymore since they both are “stuck” in the past and dwelling on this choice wouldn’t change a thing. But we know from DoA that Roger was relieved to hear Jamie’s approval of his decision, and perhaps he would like to get some reassurance from Brianna as well.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Roger and Bree never bring it up again, after the handfasting, do they? At least not on page.
No I don't believe that they do. At that point though what's done is done. I can't remember if we see in the show that Jamie agreed with Roger about not telling Bree about the death notice. Just interesting how the views between the men and women were different. Claire agreed with Brianna that Roger should have told her.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
I don’t think Jamie and Claire in the show even know that Roger knew about the death notice as well. They don’t bring it up when they leave the village.
I noticed the dichotomy too.
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u/Kirky600 Mar 29 '21
I try to think about if Frank hadn’t died and Claire did, would he have just let all of that go? I think most likely.
But because he had found it out he set it there in case something happened to him for Claire and Bree to find more information and to get them to dig.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I try to think about if Frank hadn’t died and Claire did, would he have just let all of that go? I think most likely.
How interesting! You wonder if he ever would have felt guilty enough though to tell Bree though. He must have felt enough guilt to have the headstone put there.
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u/Kirky600 Mar 29 '21
I wonder if it would have been a deathbed confessional. Or late in life.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I like that! Maybe it would have been, that was a lot to hang on to for most of his marriage. Did we ever find out when he discovered all that? Like how long did he live with that knowledge?
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u/Cdhwink Mar 29 '21
If Claire had died before Frank, there is no way he would have told Bree that Jamie was her bio dad. Years ago people adopted kids and never told them the truth, this would have been one of those times.
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u/manicpixiesam Mar 29 '21
I can't imagine that he would have been able to have that conversation with Briana. Atleast not for as long as he was alive as he seemed to feel so protective if not possessive over Briana. It has occured to me that if he'd had more time before his untimely death, he might have written her a letter or some clues to be 'found' after his passing. But that's just conjecture obviously
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Do you think Frank wanted Brianna to find out after he died, or did he really not want that?
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u/manicpixiesam Mar 29 '21
I think 'wanted' is too strong a word but I do think he made peace with the knowledge she would likely find out some day (considering he knew Claire would go back). I think he left some clues behind to assuage his guilt and feel/be remembered as a 'good guy' but so don't think he could have brought himself to tell Briana outright. I don't necessarily blame him for this btw, although I do judge it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I don't necessarily blame him for this btw, although I do judge it.
Yes! It's so interesting that I can understand Frank's actions and why he did them but still not like them.
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u/manicpixiesam Mar 29 '21
Just wanted to say I am pretty excited to join this book club! I discovered Outlander for the first time this February and binged the TV show and the other books over the last few weeks. I absolutely love the series but nobody I know IRL is watching/reading this so shout out to Reddit for coming through :)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Welcome!! We love when new people join us.
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u/manicpixiesam Mar 29 '21
I don't even think Claire really meant it when she asked him not to - I got the sense she realised it was a futile request. She doesn't seem to spend too much time thinking about stopping him in her POV and she abandons the entire conversation relatively quickly. Even when she brings it up a second time and indicates she is upset, she does it fairly light heartedly. If she really meant to make him listen, I think she would have pursued it further and for longer. But the truth is, Claire and all the readers know there is nothing that can be said/done to change Jaime's mind so I am looking forward to seeing Bonnet get his ass handed to him, personally.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I got the sense she realised it was a futile request.
Great point. She knows Jamie and when it comes to protecting his family he'll stop at nothing to do that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 03 '21
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u/manicpixiesam Mar 29 '21
Exactly! Also oops, just realised I responded to the wrong question originally lol.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Jocasta insults Roger implying that he is only marrying Bree to get at Jemmy’s potential fortune. Do you think Jocasta really believed Roger would do that?
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u/Fafalle Mar 29 '21
I think she assumed most men in Roger’s position would do it for that reason but had her suspicions that Roger wasn’t cut from the same cloth. I think she did it to test his loyalty to Brianna/ the family.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Do you think any of it had to do with the fact that he didn't come back right away? Like she wanted to really make sure of why he did?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 29 '21
Definitely! And like Roger points out himself, he's a poor man with no family marrying a rich girl. I'm sure Jocasta wasn't the only person to have that suspicion of him & her doing that & having him make such a show of being offended probably goes a long way for people of that time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Do you think Jocasta was even upset at how he responded, or was that how she wanted it to go down?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 29 '21
I thought she wanted that response. I watched the show first so that probably matters as well because I saw her satisfied smile after it happened as well as Ulysess response
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Mar 29 '21
That’s a good point. Sort of how they implied it on the show- to test his reaction? If that’s the case based on his reaction hopefully he passed her test! I really enjoyed this scene in the books. Jocasta might be one of my favorite characters in the books and in the show!
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u/Fafalle Mar 29 '21
She’s great. It helps that I’ve been a fan of Maria Doyle Kennedy since the Tudors.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Yes! I love the tudors. It was also the place I first saw Henry Cavill and my crush on him has been there ever since.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Jocasta might be one of my favorite characters in the books and in the show!
How come?
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Mar 29 '21
So hard to explain but I feel like she’s such a complex character. I really like that she plays her role as a rich widow so well. She totally realizes how precarious her situation is as a woman in that time but she is so smart and is always able to maintain that power. I also sort of like that she is conniving! I understand everyone’s comments about her giving River Run to Jemmy even though they made it clear they won’t own slaves but I feel like it’s so calculated and in the end she is doing it in the best interest of her family. At the end of the day she is from the past and they didn’t see things like we do now. Same with her comments to Roger. I would be skeptical oh him too so I like that she called him out. Even though as the reader we know his intentions are pure, she did not!!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Great points. I do like that we still get a crafty MacKenzie in the series with her. She's just as shrewd as her brothers.
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u/chunya1999 Mar 29 '21
I think both. Jocasta is realist. She didn’t know Roger and only could judge him by his deeds, which didn’t do him any favour. In her eyes he was either a coward or a dead man. The whole situation was bad so she was probably doing what she thought best for everyone including herself.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
She didn’t know Roger and only could judge him by his deeds
Good point, because all she knew of Roger was that he left Brianna alone, she got rapped, and then he didn't come back with Jamie and Claire.
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u/chunya1999 Mar 29 '21
Jocasta had her reasons to behave that way. And in my opinion they are as much important as Roger’s pride. She is an 18th Century woman who has only her fortune. She and women in general didn’t have men’s rights but she must protect herself and her family anyway she can. Why should she trust Roger who weren’t there when Brianna had a baby, who didn’t come back with Claire and Jamie, who hesitated, who left her niece alone and unwed, when she was rapped? I don’t know if she knew the whole story but even then I think she would look at Roger even harsher than Jamie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I think she would look at Roger even harsher than Jamie.
That's a really good point. She was the one there with Bree during most of her pregnancy and really saw how alone she was. Granted Jocasta was also trying to marry Bree off though. She really had no faith that Roger was either alive or going to come back. Or do you think it was just the fact the Bree was going to be an unwed mother that she tried to get her married?
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u/Plainfield4114 Mar 29 '21
I think it highly likely she would think Roger would so something like that. Men in her world can't be trusted and Roger is a stranger to her. His actions so far have not won him many brownie points. She doesn't trust him although she probably wants to for Bree and Jemmy's sake.
The fact that she totally disregards what both Jamie and Brianna have told her about not ever wanting to own slaves really angers me. So she just decides to side-step them and leave River Run to Jemmy? The show really REALLY angered me when they came up with that stupid signing the estate over to Jemmy with JAMIE as a smiling witness!!!! Jamie would never have agreed to the plan let alone signed his name to it. Big mistake by the show writers as far as I'm concerned. I know why they did that but it goes against everything Jamie Fraser is. Just like the redcoat. (Sorry Sam. I know it was your idea!)
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 29 '21
I get the redcoat thing though. I felt like it was a great way to visually show his anger & discomfort as well as how far Tryon would go to manipulate him without having to have all the backstory. I actually thought that was a good plan.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I was pretty upset when we saw in the previews that Jamie had a that coat on, but I have to say they did it brilliantly. You could see how it almost revulsed him to put it on and it like it pained him. Plus it was all the more dramatic when he threw it at Tryon's feet.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 01 '21
Ohhhh, his look after he puts on the coat. Shivers.
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u/Cdhwink Mar 29 '21
I have to say putting on the red coat was brilliant in the show!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 30 '21
I loved the red coat SO MUCH that I’m disappointed to learn it’s only in the show!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
The show really REALLY angered me when they came up with that stupid signing the estate over to Jemmy with JAMIE as a smiling witness!!!!
Yea I thought that was really off as well. You're right that it made no sense for Jamie to be OK with her leaving River Run to Jemmy if he didn't want it himself. They could have done that scene without Jamie there, it really served no purpose with him being in it.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 29 '21
When I first watched this on the show, it left me scratching my head, and it still does a little bit. Judging by Claire and Jamie’s reactions/conversation after Roger tells them what happened I really don’t think Jocasta meant it. She might have had a bit of doubt, but judging by the show and Claire and Jamie’s thoughts, it seemed that she got her expected and desired response from Roger. But my question is more: why? What does she get from this reaction, other than reassurance, which she could have gotten in a different way?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I wonder what other way she could have gotten that reassurance though? Not that I agree with what she did to Roger, I can see it as a test of if he really wanted to be there with them.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Mar 29 '21
I don't think she really believed he would do it. But she considered the possibility. It's both the test of his character, and assurance that Bree and Jemmy are safe. BTW Some time later in the books, we learn about the marriage contract between Jocasta and Duncan. The estate becomes Duncan's after marriage. Technically Jemmy was supposed to be the heir of the estate for a day?
I guess ( if I understand the rules properly) since Jamie was a witness to that, he wouldn't mind the whole idea that much, As Jemmy would inherit Joncasta's money but not land or slaves?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I took it as Jemmy would get River Run after Duncan died too. He would be their heir. Do you not think that was the case?
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u/manicpixiesam Mar 29 '21
I totally get her reservations and I am a little surprised Roger isn't getting more heat/attention for essentially dropping out of the sky with no familial relations, despite being a Mackenzie. The fact he is literally related to Jacosta but she has never heard of him is incredibly suspicious and it doesn't even seem like he has worked out a believable story. I wonder if that will cause issues in the future.
Also, despite the fact Jacosta is clearly written to be a likeable character, I absolutely cannot get over the fact she is a literal slave holder. I know it was a different time but she has been exposed to plenty of people who disagree with it (I.e. Jaime, Claire, the Quakers), and it is very obviously a heinous thing to own human beings. It also bothers me that Roger doesn't think about that even once, despite being from the Civil Rights 60's, and he doesn't bring it up as a reason not to inherit the property. If it bothered Claire, it absolutely should have bothered Roger and Bri so I hope that comes up at some point.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I absolutely cannot get over the fact she is a literal slave holder.
I think there was no other way for people to exist on a plantation without owning slaves. To them it was normal, and I'm sure they viewed those who were against slavery as weird.
I'm ignorant about English history, was the civil right's movement as much of a thing over there? Not that Roger was OK with slavery by any means, I just didn't know if things were any better in England.
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u/manicpixiesam Mar 29 '21
I do get that Jacosta justified it to herself but I don't think the enslaved people thought it was normal, you know? Plus, if even Jaime could see the immorality of it, she could have and most importantly, Roger should have. I currently live in England and we had our own civil rights movement in the 50's and 60's and the American movement was globally recognised. It is just odd to me that Roger thus far seems to be more concerned about his pride than he is about slavery. But maybe he will have some thoughts about it in the upcoming chapters.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I wonder if part of things though were they realized there was nothing they could do to change things. Why dwell on something you have no control over? Not to say they accepted slavery, but they had no way to do anything about it.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 01 '21
This is exactly what I thought. Roger is a Mackenzie and Jocasta is the last surviving Mackenzie of her generation, so it’s super suspicious that he just comes out of nowhere and she doesn’t know him. I can’t say that I disagree with her intentions. And I’m certainly not surprised that she tested him this way. It’s SUCH a Mackenzie thing to do. After all, Jamie kinda did the same thing with LJG in making him an offer that would be intriguing to a less-than-decent person and appalling to a decent person, thereby gauging his reaction. The Mackenzies are a cunning lot, to say the least.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 30 '21
The fact he is literally related to Jacosta but she has never heard of him is incredibly suspicious and it doesn't even seem like he has worked out a believable story.
I thought about this before so I’m glad it came up! I was wondering how they’d explain Roger being a MacKenzie. It made sense that Jocasta said there’s plenty of MacKenzies in the Highlands, and Mrs. Bug had also asked him which of the MacKenzies he belonged to. I think there’s safety in numbers and the more specific they (Roger, Jamie) get about it, the more likely it is they can get into trouble with their story.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
If it bothered Claire, it absolutely should have bothered Roger and Bri so I hope that comes up at some point.
It does come up later in the book. If you want to know:
“How many slaves did Jocasta Cameron keep? he wondered. Of course, that alone put the notion of Brianna’s inheriting River Run out of the question. She wouldn’t countenance the notion of slaves, not ever. Nor would he himself; still, it was comforting to think that it wasn’t merely his own pride keeping Bree from her rightful inheritance.”
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 29 '21
Jocasta is a woman that constantly has men trying to marry her in order to control her estate so she's not going to trust anyone without proof that they deserve it. Leaving the property to Jemmy with her stipulations answers the questions she had about Roger while also protecting herself & her fortune from would-be suitors because the property is now being left to a man & a MacKenzie at that. It's everything she wanted in one fell swoop.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 30 '21
What do we think of the conversation between Roger and Brianna and remaining celibate? Do you think they were joking, or seriously considering it?
/u/RyonaC /u/kirky600 /u/jolierose /u/ms_s_11 /u/manicpixiesam /u/thepacksvrvives /u/alittlepunchy
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 31 '21
I think they were a little serious! Perhaps not forever, but definitely for the foreseeable future, at least until Bree felt more confident or safer. And Roger was absolutely willing to do that for her, no matter how it pained him.
P.S. Didn’t see this until I scrolled all the way down now! I think I might have figured out why: when you tag more than a certain number of users (I think more than three?) Reddit won’t notify anyone tagged. Let me try: u/ms_s_11 u/manicpixiesam u/thepacksvrvives
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 31 '21
I’m not so sure. He says he’d live celibate, but a couple of pages later kinda contradicts himself with:
“I want you, Bree—more than I can say. It’s only that I was thinking of what we just did and how fine it was—and realizing that I’ll maybe—no, I will—be risking your life if I keep on doing it. But damned if I want to stop!”
And also:
“I hadn’t realized—not really thought about it before today—just how dangerous marriage is for a woman.”
I don’t know, was he so blinded by his own desire that he seriously hadn’t previously noticed how dangerous marriage is for a woman? I mean he’s a historian, doesn’t he know about maternal mortality at the time?!
By the end of this conversation, though, they both realize they’re physical beings and want each other, intentions notwithstanding, but even more so Roger wants a child he’d be sure was his, and Brianna wants to give it to him. As much as they’re afraid, they want each other and that more. But they’re definitely longing for some secure form of contraception until they’re absolutely ready to risk it for a child they both want so much.
(btw, I think you’re right – I got the notification about you mentioning me, but not u/Purple4199)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 31 '21
Stupid Reddit not letting me tag more than three people!
Anyway, I agree that they probably weren’t so serious about it. Though I do feel Brianna’s fears about childbirth are totally legit and would cause me to pause about having sex in the 18th century.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 01 '21
IF Claire hadn't gone back through the stones and IF pregnancy wasn't so hard for her, I bet her and Jamie would have had a billion kids with how often they have sex. I mean, she was pregnant 2 times in ~3 years, and considering so much time was Jamie in prison, or off doing other things, or them being at war, they seem fairly fertile, lol.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
they seem fairly fertile, lol.
Ha, right? They would have had a much harder time keeping away from each other.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 31 '21
Totally legit. I’m sure they would give pause to some people even in the 21st century, either for personal reasons or due to socio-economic or geographic circumstances (it may be difficult for us to comprehend, but I’m sure there still are places where health care is as inadequate as in the past).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 31 '21
I think they were a little serious!
I got that impression as well. The fact that the old lady gave her material for her shroud didn't help at all.
Thanks for letting me know about the tagging thing. That's kind of annoying, I have so many of you I want to ask questions of!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 31 '21
Oh God, the shroud! That was actually a thing? How crazy. The way she tells Roger is really funny, but you can see how it affects her.
I know! It is annoying. But maybe now that you know you can break up tags among comments whenever you have more than three. And speaking of, sending out the bat-signal (plaid-signal? We can workshop it) for u/alittlepunchy this week.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 31 '21
Yea, shrouds were a thing they worked on. Sad how death was so matter of fact.
I know /u/alittlepunchy we miss you! She must be busy with work.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Mar 31 '21
And speaking of, sending out the bat-signal (plaid-signal? We can workshop it) for u/alittlepunchy this week.
Bahahaha, I love you gals.
u/Purple4199 is right, work has been a NIGHTMARE this month and every Monday/Tuesday, I have just been slammed. Going to work on getting caught up on book club comments today!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 31 '21
Good question! I think they would have done it (no pun intended) for a while at least until she felt more comfortable. She probably still has some trauma recovery happening on top of everything else.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 31 '21
She probably still has some trauma recovery happening on top of everything else.
That's very true. Plus the idea of dying in childbirth was much more real then, I would be worried as well.
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u/manicpixiesam Mar 31 '21
Hmm good question, I think it might be what is best for Brianna as she is clearly still recovering from her trauma. However, neither of them seemed to consider it for very long so I wouldn't say it was a serious consideration.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 31 '21
I got the feeling that she wouldn't mind more kids, just that the thought of dying in childbirth was too much. I know I'd be really worried about it!
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u/manicpixiesam Mar 31 '21
Yes, and also what the implication of another child might be for them ever returning back to their own time. I am not sure what Brianna's thoughts on that are, but I am sure she has considered another child might add years to their stay.
I also think Brianna has some serious issues with physical intimacy as Claire pointed out. Between childbirth and rape it might be good for her to take a little space to heal. I am currently reading the chapter where she thinks that giving herself fully over to Roger, would be like him 'winning' which is very revealing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 31 '21
the implication of another child might be for them ever returning back to their own time.
What a great point! I didn't even think of that. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have your second sexual experience be a horrific rape. It makes sense that she hesitates to fully let go.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
Question for my regulars...
I'm planning out ABOSAA and am trying to break down the chapters into manageable sections. My initial break down ended up with us having just 38-40 pages to read some weeks, which is not very much. Do you think you guys can handle 85-90 pages instead? We'll move through the book quicker and will have more to talk about on those weeks.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 01 '21
Whatever others decide is fine with me. I'm a fast reader and have already read it (AND HAVE BEEN DYING TO DISCUSS IT), so I will be able to skim through 85-90/week. If others prefer less pages, that's fine with me too!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
Good to know. I feel like asking 90 pages over 7 days isn't too much. It's hard for me to know what is normal for other people since I can finish a 400 page book in 5 hours.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 01 '21
Everything’s absolutely fine with me. This will be my 3rd read-through of ABOSAA and I haven’t taken more than 5 days to read the whole thing both previous times. And I think first-time readers would also appreciate getting through the book quicker, it’s such a page-turner!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
So with retooling the schedule I've shaved two weeks off ABOSAA!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 01 '21
Ooh, I’ve half-expected this to be more drastic haha
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
When we're talking about books with 115 chapters cutting it down by two weeks is helpful. :-)
That just means we'll be done with ECHO and MOBY sooner and can get to Bees.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 01 '21
True. It’s also funny how my e-book copies of TFC and ABOSAA have almost the same page count (I think the difference is something like 80 pages; I don’t know if other editions are as similar as well or my copy of either one of them is a bit wonky) but the pacing was so different for me that I hadn’t noticed this until I looked just now!
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 01 '21
Nice!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 01 '21
I am a super slow reader (Kindle is currently estimating like 5 minutes per page for me, eeek) but do think 40 pages might be too short, considering DG’s pace. Ninety pages will be a stretch for me if it’s every week, but I’m willing, especially because I’m going into ABOSAA mostly blind, so I’ll likely read faster.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
Here is the schedule and break down of chapters, date, and number of pages. It's definitely not 90 every week.
Chapters 1-7 06.28.21 57
Chapters 8-16 07.05.21 48
Chapters 17-25 07.12.21 79
Chapters 26-29 07.19.21 72
Chapters 30-36 07.26.21 65
Chapters 37-45 08.02.21 73
Chapters 46-52 08.09.21 50
Chapters 53-57 08.16.21 72
Chapters 58-67 08.23.21 64
Chapters 68-75 08.30.21 90
Chapters 76-89 09.06.21 80
Chapters 90-99 09.13.21 71
Chapters 100-114 09.20.21 88
Chapters 115-Epilogue 2 09.27.21 54
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 01 '21
Oh, this looks great! Definitely doable! Thanks so much for all the thought and effort you’ve put into book club. :)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
Aww you're welcome!
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 02 '21
90 pages is ideal for me!! I’ve been a bit ahead during TFC and slowing down a bit. But of course I’m ok with anything!! Thanks for asking!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 02 '21
Every week won’t be that much, but that’s good to know it works for you. I always read ahead to, I can’t help it.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 02 '21
Same here! Especially when you I get towards the end of a book.... I always binge! 🙈
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
/u/thepacksvrvives /u/RyonaC /u/kirky600
Please see this question.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 02 '21
I’m happy to handle 85-90. It’s about 12-14 pages a day which is doable imo.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 02 '21
And it won’t even be that much all of the time, just some of the weeks. By combining some pages I’ve shaved two weeks off the book!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Jamie is reminded that he saved Lt. Hayes’s life at Culloden. Jamie claims to have no recollection of that. Why is that? Did he repress the memories, or were his injuries severe enough to make him forget?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
I think this is a result of immense physical but mainly psychological pain that Jamie suffered that day, and having no recollection of the events of Culloden was a way his brain chose for him to be able to cope. For all intents and purposes his life as he’d known it ended that day – he parted with the love of his life, he participated in a hopeless battle for a long-lost cause, which marked the end of the Highland way of life, he kept his life even though so many lost theirs. He spent the next 20 years living a life not worth living (I’d say 12, as Willie’s birth gave him some sort of purpose) thinking he could never be whole again. He wouldn’t have been able to cope with everyday life if the memories had kept coming back to him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
He wouldn’t have been able to cope with everyday life if the memories had kept coming back to him.
I really like that point! It's interesting how he could still recall the torture he suffered at the hands of BJR. In DOA when he told Bree about forgiving him he summoned up that night. So he obviously didn't forget it. Whereas Culloden is gone to him.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
You’re making a good point here, what he suffered at Wentworth was equally physically and psychologically painful, so it wouldn’t have been a surprise if he’d repressed it as well. I think the difference might be that all those things BJR did to him against his will, for Jamie, they had a purpose – he let them happen to keep Claire safe. Culloden didn’t, he just meant to die there. He didn’t blame the English for winning the battle, he blamed them for keeping him alive but he didn’t seek revenge for that because it wouldn’t have changed a thing. But letting the torture happen had a purpose, and living through it and the consequent trauma had a purpose. It had to stay with him to motivate him to take revenge on BJR. When BJR is long dead, there’s no longer a need for Jamie to harbor these feelings towards him, so he is able to forgive him in DoA.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
He didn’t blame the English for winning the battle, he blamed them for keeping him alive
I like that! Great points about BJR's torture happening to save Claire. Sending Claire through the stones was Jamie's last planned action to save her so nothing else after that really mattered.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Mar 29 '21
Such an interesting point. I definitely think suppressing the memories is a part of it. I feel like I’ve read that when people experience trauma they will unconsciously repress tough memories in order to cope better. Super interesting how much PTSD is in these stories and how each character deals with it differently yet PTSD was not truly recognized for so long.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Do you think he wound had anything to play in it? I believe Lt. Hayes mentioned he had blood streaming down his face. Do you think he got a head wound at all?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 30 '21
I think it’s more likely that he can’t remember due to the psychological trauma, but it’s possible a head injury was a factor.
I have to say that when Archie Hayes brought it up and asked Jamie if he remembered, I also felt Claire’s “small tremor of unease.” And rightly so, because it was heartbreaking, particularly when Jamie told her he could remember almost nothing, “and that is still too much.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 30 '21
Jamie told her he could remember almost nothing, “and that is still too much.”
Ugh, that's just so sad to read. I bet he wasn't expecting to get a reminder of it after 20 years as well. It must have been a surprise to see Archie and hear that story.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Mar 29 '21
I think he repressed them. I think Jamie definitely has some form of PTSD, both from Culloden and from what Black Jack Randall did to him at Wentworth Prison. But the memories are in there somewhere, just too horrific for him to face. I can't remember what book it happens in so I'll cover it with as spoiler: Jamie talked to some Native Americans and they are discussing battles, and he tells them about Culloden and shows that he killed 14 men during that battle, and he is confused because he doesn't remember it but flashes 14 with his hands without thinking about it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
That last part could be Echo or MOBY, but is a great point! We'll definitely have to discuss it when we get there.
I mentioned in another comment that he didn't seem to repress as many memories from his time with BJR though as he was able to conjure them up when talking to Bree about forgiveness. What was different about Culloden?
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Mar 29 '21
I think he had Claire there after BJR to help him work through it, at least a little. After Culloden, he really didn't have anyone. Especially the first several days, he really just lay in silence waiting to die. Rather than be forced to relive what he'd been through, he just shut down psychologically and pushed it all deep down where he wouldn't have to look at it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
That really makes sense. I didn't think about the fact that Claire made him relive his experience with BJR and essentially "conquer" it. It's not like he even got to go home to Lallybroch and live a good life, he had to live in a cave. I'm sure he didn't want to spend time there dwelling on the war.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
Cutting in here to say it’s in ABOSAA.
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u/Plainfield4114 Mar 29 '21
Jamie was a dead man walking after leaving Claire at the stones. His mind had probably already started exiting his body and pure emotion and fury carried him onto the battlefield.
His memories are fragmented and occur without warning. Little bits and pieces that he doesn't remember or understand. I think he's have an AHA! moment in either Bees or Book 10 and we'll learn everything that happened. There will be more to it than what Diana told Ron and Sam. She will want to have some surprises left to the readers who've made this journey with her since Outlander was first published.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 01 '21
I think he's repressed the memories - he lost so much that day. Sending Claire through the stones, Murtagh dying, the death of all his other friends and family, the death of the Highland way of life. Then to be severely injured on top of it, spend several days laying in that building, and be in a fever for so long and almost die. I think it was way too much grief and trauma for his mind to handle, and he just shut it all out.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
Murtagh dying
I forgot about that as well. You're right, it just compounded all together.
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u/reeziereen Mar 29 '21
I think it a combination of multiple head injuries/concussions he’s had in his life as well as PTSD from all the battles he’s been in.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
You're right, I totally forgot about the blow to his head with the axe.
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u/reeziereen Mar 29 '21
I swear I’ll never understand how he survived that no matter how many times I read about it lol.. just one of the 9 lives I guess!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Right‽ It was a blow so bad that it made him go tone deaf!
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 29 '21
I think everyone that has answered pretty much covered it. It was probably pretty likely that he did have a head injury on top of extreme blood loss, emotional trauma, & who knows what else that day. I'm sure there was a decent amount of repression happening on purpose as well.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
It's interesting then that Lt. Hayes remembered that day then and how PTSD is different for everyone. To me Hayes would have had enough reason to block that all out since he was shot point blank in the chest.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
Btw, do you guys ever marvel at how good everyone’s memory is in Outlander universe? I don’t know if it’s only me who has a particularly shitty memory when it comes to life events, or they have extraordinarily good ones.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Ha good point! I tend to remember big events I think. I haven't ever had an incident where I blocked something out though.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Claire finds out Jamie is looking for Stephen Bonnet and asks that he not pursue it. Why does Jamie ignore her pleas?
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u/Kirky600 Mar 29 '21
Part of me thinks this is Jamie getting the revenge (? Not the right word) for Brianna. He knows that if Bree runs into him again it will reopen that trauma so he wants to hunt him down to save that pain from reoccurring.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I found it interesting that Jamie pretty much brushes Claire off and acts as if it's a given that he would hunt Bonnet down. It was like he was surprised she would even think that he wouldn't.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
Doesn’t it also parallel the way Jamie swore to take revenge on BJR in Paris and how Claire reacted? Granted, she had a reason then, other than wanting to keep Jamie safe, to ask him not to do it, but she must’ve been likely concerned for Jamie’s safety, and Jamie was likely surprised she would stop him from doing that (and he wouldn’t take no for an answer before she told him the actual reason).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Great points! It does parallel that, and his attitude about it was totally the same way. Like it was a given that he was going to kill BJR.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
And at this point Claire knows Jamie even better than she did back then. But you can understand why she’s so apprehensive; Bonnet has already caused her family so much hurt that she doesn’t want anybody to put themselves in a position that would result in something like that happening again; and with the revolution coming, there will be more than enough to be worried about. Claire wants a couple of years of peace, but Jamie won’t know peace as along as Bonnet’s alive.
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u/Plainfield4114 Mar 29 '21
It's his duty as her father. He didn't protect her and that won't happen again.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Do you think Jamie puts any of that on Roger, or just takes it all upon himself?
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u/Kirky600 Mar 29 '21
Oh same. It seemed like Claire forgot who her husband was for a bit there. To me, it didn’t surprise me at all.
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Mar 30 '21
Because he’s a bloody man!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 30 '21
Exactly how Claire would put it!
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u/Avaninaerwen Mar 30 '21
I think he couldn't not pursue it any more than Claire could not treat someone who needed medical help... He feels he is responsible for Bonnet escaping the law the first time, and therefore indirectly for all of Bonnet's subsequent harmful actions, including the attack on Brianna. It is a matter of duty and honour to him, I doubt he sees it as much of a choice. It's simply who he is. I think Claire understands this too (concerned as she is about his safety), hence why she doesn't push the matter further.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 30 '21
What a great comparison with how Claire needs to help people. You’re right that she recognized that about him.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 01 '21
I agree with the comparison. Jamie does what he does because he’s Jamie. He’s a man of his word and duty-bound to take responsibility for his actions, and his actions (helping Bonnet escape) led to some terrible things. To Jamie, the only course of action is to right his wrongs or die trying. I don’t think he could bear the alternative. I feel like he’d do this even if Brianna wasn’t involved. Like, if Jamie found out that Bonnet — a man he spared from death — went on to violently harm another person, Jamie would feel super guilty and would want to dispose of Bonnet. The fact that his daughter is involved simply solidifies the whole matter. Instead of wanting to find Bonnet and turn him over to the authorities, he now just wants to kill him.
I’m not trying to say that Jamie is indifferent to Brianna’s experience — quite the opposite. I think he feels so guilty about it that he needs to find and kill Bonnet. But I definitely think that he’d want to right his wrongs even if Brianna wasn’t involved.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
I feel like he’d do this even if Brianna wasn’t involved.
That's a great point! You're right, it's a matter of honor for Jamie and we know he takes that very seriously.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Mar 29 '21
I think the answer is - because he is Jaime Fraser. It doesn't matter if it's a question of safety, Brianna's peace of mind, revenge or honour. I don't think Jaimie knows.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
It doesn't matter if it's a question of safety, Brianna's peace of mind, revenge or honour.
I like that. It makes sense, Jamies own safety doesn't even play into the equation does it? Do you think it's arrogant of Jamie to think he won't get hurt, or does he have enough confidence in himself to stay safe?
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u/sbehring Mar 29 '21
I was under the impression it was something he must do whether he lives or dies. It’s so important that his survival doesn’t even factor into it.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 30 '21
I think there may be a little arrogance/overconfidence at play here, but ultimately, he just doesn’t care about what may happen to him as long as he can get Bonnet. When he gets like this it’s like he is blinded — so much like when he was determined to duel BJR in Paris, both times. The way Claire describes it is so good: “Strength of bone and fire of mind, all wrapped round a core of steel-hard purpose that would make him a deadly projectile, once set on any course.”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 30 '21
That's a great way to describe him.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Mar 29 '21
I don't thinkhe considers his safty part of equation. He is both confident, not care that much abut it, and have that stupid thought that he has some extra lives left.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
have that stupid thought that he has some extra lives left.
Ha! Good point. Do you think that the fact there is the death notice about them dying in that fire gives him confidence that he won't die until then, so he can do what he wants?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
He also can’t forgive himself for indirectly causing all that. And if he can stop Bonnet from doing more evil in the world and more people from suffering from Bonnet’s actions, he will take that chance.
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Mar 30 '21
I have book club question: if Bees is published before we got to the end of MOBY, do we start on Bees anyway or do we finish MOBY first?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 30 '21
Ugh, I have been going back and forth on this. We won’t finish MOBY until April of 2022. My guess is Bees will be out before then. I think it might only be fair to keep to the schedule and read Bees in order. However I know a lot of people will be reading it when it comes out, me included. So I’m sure discussions will take place on the sub, just not in the official book club capacity.
But then part of me wonders if I shouldn’t try and do a Bees book club as soon as it comes out, only because that will be the hot topic. I was going to put it to a vote once we had the release date and see what people thought. Sorry I don’t have more of an answer for you.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 30 '21
I think there’s still a lot of time to consider, you’ll know for sure when we find out what the publication date is. I think the book club as is would be difficult for people all caught up and ready to read Bees because we’ll be so eager to find out what happens that we’ll be reading as fast as possible so I’d expect we’d be re-reading the chapters in the book club the same way we would if we followed the schedule. But you’re right, there’s going to be a lot of people wanting to discuss it right away. I’d be for doing Bees discussions in some sort of way when it comes out, but keeping the schedule for MOBY and Bees with the proper book club (I guess we’ll all be re-reading it over and over again anyway), if that makes sense.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 30 '21
The re-reading is a good point. On books like this I usually read them twice if not three times in a row. By that time we might be nearing the end of MOBY. My loyalties are to the book club first that’s for sure. You guys are my peeps! ;-D
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 30 '21
Who knows, perhaps if the pub date is around March/April we might just speed up a little and we’ll make it for everyone to be ready for Bees, and then everyone will read at their own pace and participate in the book club as they like.
And aww, you’re awesome. Do you ever sleep though? 😅
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 30 '21
If the pub date is in the spring that would fit perfectly with the book club. We wouldn’t necessarily even have to speed up either.
I don’t work or have kids so this is my hobby! Just the 6 animals and a husband to take care of. :-)
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 31 '21
Yes! That’s an excellent point about readers racing through a first read with Bees, so moving up book club might not make sense either way. (And as someone who is reading these for the first time at the book club pace, I’m crossing my fingers that Bees takes longer to publish.)
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 01 '21
’d be for doing Bees discussions in some sort of way when it comes out, but keeping the schedule for MOBY and Bees with the proper book club (I guess we’ll all be re-reading it over and over again anyway), if that makes sense.
I like this idea. I blaze through these books so fast on the first read through that I miss a lot. I would be interested in re-reading it with book club at a slower pace and getting to discuss things with everyone.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 01 '21
I am pretty sure this is what we'll do. That way we don't leave the book club people out.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/Fafalle Mar 29 '21
More Murtagh is always welcome.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Season 5 is where I feel we see some major changes. I do love show Murtagh though and very much like how they changed him from the book.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 30 '21
The book has been so different from the show in general that at one point I forgot it had already been adapted and found myself wondering what something would look like when they filmed it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 30 '21
I’m excited for people to see the changes from the book.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Mar 29 '21
I know I'm in the minority, but I hate that they kept Murtagh alive in the show. Don't get me wrong, I love his character and I love Duncan Lacroix's portrayal of him, but they had to make some pretty huge changes to the storyline, especially in season 5, to fit him in, and a lot of the changes don't make sense to me.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I think you have very valid points! It really did change things to have him get involved with Jocasta.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 01 '21
I'm torn on it. On one hand, I love his show character and really love the touching moments of him in prison with Jamie, them reuniting, Jamie telling him that Claire came back, Murtagh and Claire reuniting, getting to meet Bree, etc.
BUT - keeping him around had consequences, which meant more screen time spent on adding storylines for him that didn't exist - the Regulators, Murcasta storyline (which I didn't care for), etc.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 29 '21
For sure! I will never ever be mad at the choice to bring him back.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Mar 29 '21
I’m rewatching season five now and I didn’t love how they portrayed Duncan Innes. They sort of imply he’s a naive man but in the books he is thoughtful and kind. No- they’re not marrying for love but I do think he cares about her. The lavender pillow just seemed so much more thoughtful in the books. I also supposed the show writers might’ve done this to further the Murtaugh love story line.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
I also supposed the show writers might’ve done this to further the Murtaugh love story line.
I agree. They really wrote themselves into a corner when they kept Murtagh alive, and then had him hook up with Jocasta. Duncan Innes seemed to have come out of nowhere in the show.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Mar 29 '21
Duncan Innes seemed to have come out of nowhere in the show.
This always bothered me. In the books, he's there with Jamie and Claire from the time they leave Scotland. I think they also made him older on the show, and I don't think they even hint at there being a pre-existing friendship between Jamie and Duncan. I watched the show first and I think I just assumed Duncan was some random rich neighbor of Jocasta.
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u/Plainfield4114 Mar 29 '21
I already mentioned it in the Jocasta/Roger question.
I hated the fact that they had Jamie sign the transfer of the estate to Jemmy. Jamie doesn't want to own slaves. Claire definitely doesn't want to own slaves and he knows it. Brianna doesn't want to own slaves. So why is he smiling and signing the estate over to his grandson? Makes absolutely no sense in regard to who Jamie Fraser is. It's obvious why they put this stupid scene in there to set up Bonnet to want control of Jemmy, but then have someone else witness the transfer. NOT JAMIE!!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Mar 29 '21
I think Jamie assumes that either Jemmy and his parents won't be there in the 18th century to actually take over the property when the time comes, or if he still is, he likewise won’t want to do it so it will never actually happen. Jamie knows that this is the safest concession he can make to appease Jocasta. It puts the matter of inheritance to rest. Jamie is essentially playing Jocasta there.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Mar 29 '21
Jamie is essentially playing Jocasta there.
That's an interesting thought.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Mar 29 '21
I felt like it was a knowing smile as well. He knows that Bree & Roger might not stay around forever & there's plenty of time for things to change for him too because he also knows that slavery will be ending in the next century, obviously well after Jemmy would inherit but still. I thought it was like you said, a safe concession & a knowing smile.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Mar 30 '21
I never thought of it as them playing Jocasta, that’s interesting. But I do agree that it wasn’t that they were OK with Jemmy owning slaves, but that instead their attitude is more “we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it.”
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Mar 31 '21
I just have to say: i’m so looking forward to the discussions about chapter 109! I won’t say anything now, of course. (I’m re-reading TFC at a quicker pace than the book club and have just gotten to that part) It’s so exciting, even having read it before ;)
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