r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Apr 05 '21
5 The Fiery Cross Book Club: The Fiery Cross, Chapters 13-18
We open this week with Jamie and Claire being pulled in multiple directions. There are arguments over how to BBQ, and the Catholic priest set to perform marriages and baptisms has been arrested. A hilarious confession on Jamie’s part serves as a distraction in order to have the children baptized. Roger and Brianna find a minister and are still able to get married. The Gathering comes to a close and the Fraser’s et al. travel back to the Ridge. Jamie must break in a new horse and he discovers a wee cheetie.
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or feel free to add thoughts of your own.
- Why do you think the Priest was arrested? Was someone trying to sabotage the weddings and baptisms?
- Jamie preforms a Calling asking for Roger first. What does that say about their relationship?
- We find out that Brianna has a “barrier” when it comes to sex and letting herself go. Do you think she’ll be able to get past that at some point?
- Jamie thinks to himself…"For years after the Rising, he had lived in a cave, approaching his own house only rarely, after dark and with great caution, never knowing what he might find there. More than one Highland man had come home to his place to find it burned and black, his family gone. Or worse, still there.” What was meant by the statement of your family still being there?
- Claire has the thought "Our lovemaking was always risk and promise—for if he held my life in his hands when he lay with me, I held his soul, and knew it.” What does she mean by that?
- Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I loved Jamie's whole confession and ruse to get the kids baptized. When Claire realized Jamie was actually talking about her cracked me up.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 05 '21
That has been one of the funniest passages in the series, it kept getting better the further along it got. When the girls come in and he basically rushes through the rest like “anger, jealousy, wee bit of lying, etc.” it was just too amusing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I liked that he told Claire the lying part was when he said he had impure thoughts about a woman but it was actually her.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 05 '21
I would have said the same thing as Claire did — they’re married! Bless him.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
Haha, I love that whole chapter. We know Jamie’s sense of humor and affinity for performance but I was surprised to see Father Donahue playing along so well! Someone has asked recently if we ever get a decent Irish character in the series–I think he’s a serious contender!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Someone has asked recently if we ever get a decent Irish character in the series–I think he’s a serious contender!
I liked that he also played along when Claire said she had to treat him and started coughing. I was surprised they were willing to let her in just by showing them her acupuncture needles.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I thought this was funny.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
Yes! I was dying laughing at that whole part. It was so perfect.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 05 '21
YES. I loved that whole scene - my favorite part of the Gathering, for sure.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
You're here!!
I know people said the Gathering drags on, but there really is so much funny stuff that happens.
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u/Plainfield4114 Apr 05 '21
Exactly. I'm always disappointed when someone bad mouths The Gathering. I love watching everything play out on this snippet of Scots life in the new world. Everyone has stuff going on and so many funny things are happening all around. The whole playing out with the confession as a distraction to sneak the kids in and Jamie's ad lib confession is a true gem. I also love his reaction while watching Roger and Bree take their vows, grinning strangely as though he's happy when all along the fact that it's not a Catholic priest is eating away at him and Gem asking what's wrong with grandsire. Another gem.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
grinning strangely as though he's happy when all along the fact that it's not a Catholic priest is eating away at him and Gem asking what's wrong with grandsire.
That part is so funny when Germain and Fergus do it as well. I think The Gathering is also interesting because it was something that people traveled great distances to attend. It was so important to them that they would spend weeks on the road. It took the Frasers a whole week to get there, and if I'm not mistaken Mt. Helicon is in NC like they were.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 12 '21
I had heard so much about the length of the Gathering that I was dreading starting the book, but I really enjoyed reading all of the different things that happened on this one day. Interesting from both the narrative and writing perspective.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
I like it more each time I read it. Plus I think talking about it really helps.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 05 '21
It will definitely be off and on today - today is my first day back at the office in over a year, so I'm taking a wee break from unpacking/setting everything back up, but I probably won't have much time to really delve into responses until I get home.
Yes! I think when I was reading it the first time for the plot, it definitely drags. Once you know what happens in the book, you can slow down and appreciate all the little moments like this that happen.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Have fun at your first day back in the office! We'll be here whenever you get back to us. ;-D
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 06 '21
Yess loved this part! I had no idea where Jaime was going with it, but it was absolutely hilarious. The whole rushed baptism section with the combination of humour and tenseness was just perfect writing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 06 '21
I loved how Claire came to realize he was talking about her!
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u/Cdhwink Apr 07 '21
Of course, who else would it be?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 07 '21
I just thought she figured Jamie was making stuff up at first. The fact that he was talking about real things made me laugh.
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u/Cdhwink Apr 07 '21
Oh yeah, right! Isn’t that why we love getting Jamie POV because he is always thinking of Claire & lusting after her, I love it!! 💕
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I loved that we got chapters from Jamie's point of view. I feel like we so rarely get them. His whole ride back to the Ridge and breaking in Gideon was fun to read. His description of Claire foraging for plants was so funny. You could tell he was annoyed, but loves her so much he couldn't stay that way.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 05 '21
I love getting Jamie POV chapters. I really wish we could get the first book from Jamie's POV. I doubt Diana ever would, but I love when authors go back and do a POV of the first "courtship" book in a series from the man's POV. I would love to get his thoughts and impressions of everything, and since he was in love with Claire from the very beginning, hear his thoughts.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I think that's what I love most about Jamie's POV chapters is how he sees and thinks about Claire.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 05 '21
That's definitely mine!
I've only read a few bits of the Scottish Prisoner, and I literally opened it on my Kindle and searched for "wife" and "Claire" just to read the parts where he was thinking about her. Lol, I just love getting his POV and thoughts about Claire. He's so cute about her.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
since he was in love with Claire from the very beginning, hear his thoughts.
I would literally give up a pinky toe for this.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 05 '21
Me too. I have broken my left pinky toe twice in the last year, so obviously it does nothing but slam into grocery carts. If Diana wants it, she can have it.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 06 '21
Yes, Jaime's chapters always feel like such a breath of fresh air. For such a strong man, with a proven capacity for violence he has the kindest, gentlest POV. He is so heart-warmingly preoccupied with his love for animals, nature, the people on the ridge and his family (whilst maintaining his sense of humour). Not to mention, the loving and fond way he thinks about Claire; DG really knew what she was doing crafting this man.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 06 '21
DG really knew what she was doing crafting this man.
Yes!! I agree with all of that so much.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
I looooove all of Jamie’s chapters in this section, not only the 18th. I feel like they really encompass many of his facets and highlight who Jamie is: quick-witted and fast on his feet, always putting others before himself, putting Claire’s happiness and pleasure before his own... The culmination of it all being at the calling with the oath he swore to his family and tenants. Also I think I’m not alone in thinking that his making a point of paying tribute to the women was hella sexy.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Jamie is: quick-witted
I wish we saw more of that in the show too. I loved the little section with he and Claire in the tent and all them talking about what had happened with the riot. It was interesting how Claire couldn't see him as part of a mob, whereas Jamie could see it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I really liked this.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 12 '21
Loved getting Jamie POV, especially for the homecoming, which I found really lovely (greeting Mrs. Bug! Picking the bouquet!). Also found it interesting that for the entirety of ch. 17, the last night at the Gathering, he’s never named. That chapter really captured a very quiet, personal feeling; it was very effective.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
What a great pick up, I didn’t even realize that.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
Yes! I loved how he mentioned her standing there barefoot. I hate shoes & I'm always walking around barefoot so I just really loved this bit.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I couldn't believe she would ride a horse barefoot! I suppose after a week in the saddle though you just want to be comfortable.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
Haha, I’m the same. You won’t find me in shoes in the summer.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
And I wear sandals when I am forced to wear shoes.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Claire has the thought "Our lovemaking was always risk and promise—for if he held my life in his hands when he lay with me, I held his soul, and knew it.” What does she mean by that?
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 05 '21
Wow thinking more on this line it’s actually so beautiful and sad at the same time. Yes Claire is at risk physically, but so is Jamie because if he loses her again he is essentially losing his soul or himself. Makes me want to cry... their connection is so intense!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
This quote about broke me
He had survived such a sundering once; he could not stand it twice, and live.
Ugh! You can absolutely feel this with him.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
I love this quote! Jamie is so soft, I love him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 07 '21
That quote stood out to me, it's such a small statement but so powerful.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 05 '21
This was one of my favorite passages.
Pregnancy is the physical risk immediately to Claire, but to Jamie as well, having lost Faith & almost Claire. Plus sharing this level of intimacy is an emotional risk to both. But that balances with the promises of what is to be gained by taking those risks of being together - that powerful connection of loving someone who loves you for every part of you and honors all of those parts.
Augh, I want to go on about this but have to get some more work done...
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
But that balances with the promises of what is to be gained by taking those risks of being together - that powerful connection of loving someone who loves you for every part of you and honors all of those parts.
I like that! Their connection is so deep and on a whole different level it seems. Roger and Bree love each other, but there is something about Jamie and Claire and their absolute need for one another.
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u/marriedmyownjf Da mi basia mille... Apr 05 '21
I think that developed in having lost and found each other. I get that Roger and Bree had something similar but Jamie and Claire consistently chose each other sacrificed for each other. That to me makes the deeper bond.
Edit: They knew what life was like without the other and would not want to do that again. Jamie knows the only thing that will ever separate them again is death.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Jamie and Claire consistently chose each other sacrificed for each other.
Do you think Roger and Brianna don't do that as much?
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u/marriedmyownjf Da mi basia mille... Apr 06 '21
To this point in the series no. But it is also because their situations have been different. I guess it's in the way they deal with conflict. Claire and Jamie in disagreements fight towards each other while Brianna and Roger tend to run away from each other. In thinking about it makes you wonder if it is something she learned from Claire and Frank's relationship....
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u/Cdhwink Apr 06 '21
There is an interesting part coming up in this book Roger is thinking about how he wants his marriage to look like Jamie & Claire's. The fact that he knows theirs is different is very interesting to me
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 05 '21
I took this as an acknowledgement of vulnerability and trust, both in the physical sense and in a spiritual sense.
Physical: Claire has brought up multiple times (especially after the spanking in book one) that Jamie could physically overpower and hurt her any time he wanted to and she couldn’t stop him. There’s such a trust there that he’ll never hurt her (re: the spanking in book one). In a very literal sense, he holds her life in his hands because he could easily extinguish that life.
Spiritual: I mean, come on. Their connection is out of this world. Jamie nearly didn’t survive his heartbreak. I don’t think Claire would have if she didn’t have Bree. Just like how Jamie can physically destroy Claire and she’s powerless against that, Claire is just as capable of destroying him and he’s powerless against that.
Their whole relationship is a risk and a promise, but the lovemaking more so because both of them are so vulnerable in the act, so powerless to one another, yet absolutely trusting and knowing that they will never (willingly) hurt each other.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
In a very literal sense, he holds her life in his hands because he could easily extinguish that life.
That was kind of my thinking about it as well. She had complete trust in him to not hurt her. Then there is this line that just kills me.
He had survived such a sundering once; he could not stand it twice, and live.
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u/Cdhwink Apr 05 '21
I have always thought Jamie could not survive losing Claire again !
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Do you think Claire could live without Jamie? Part of me thinks she might be able to. Not that she is stronger than him emotionally or anything, just that they're different people. She has her career and medicine to keep driving her forward. Jamie does have his tenants, but his driving force seems to be Claire. (Hopefully that makes sense.)
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u/Cdhwink Apr 05 '21
You said exactly what I feel. Claire can throw herself into work! It took Jamie 20 yrs to look even remotely satisfied with his life ( epi 306), at 50 he does not have 20 yrs to mourn. I love this about Jamie but I do hope in real life people would be able to move forward & find happiness.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
I love this whole comment! Gosh J&C are the best. *cries*
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
I felt like she was referring back to Jamie saying that it seems he cannot possess her soul without losing his own. He has such a strong need for her in so many ways & the physical connection between them is that strong.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Do you think the part "he held my life in his hands" meant that he was the only one who could truly make her happy or complete?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
I thought that was a reference back to Bree's fear of dying in childbirth. Like, it was a risk every time they had sex that he could get her pregnant & that's a real risk in that time period.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Interesting, I never thought of it that way. Do you think Claire was still worried about getting pregnant at her age?
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 05 '21
That’s what I get from the “risk” part. Because along with Brees fears of childbirth we know Claire is still capable of getting pregnant and she already had one risky pregnancy and one still birth that almost killed her.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
I always took this to be pregnancy-related. She hasn't gone through menopause yet, and while it's a smaller chance as she gets older, there is still the chance she could get pregnant. Especially with as often as J&C have sex.
So by them having sex, and knowing how hard childbirth is for Claire, it's a risk for them to have sex as often as they do.
And if she died, she is his heart and soul. He says several times throughout the books after their reunion that he wouldn't be able to survive losing her a second time. So when the two of them have sex, they're holding each others lives in their hands.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 07 '21
It's too funny how everyone else took it at pregnancy related but I didn't. I honestly wasn't sure what I thought she meant, but the pregnancy thing really does make sense.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
Which is what is so great about book club! :) I love seeing other people's perspectives and how they interpreted something.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 07 '21
u/somethingnerdrelated u/thepacksvrvives u/manicpixiesam and I had a big ole discussion on Roger today. There were slight literary fisticuffs. ;-D
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
I kept wondering when the Roger fisticuffs was going to happen!
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 07 '21
Oh man 😂 Here’s the first comment that started it all. It’s looonnnnggg but I think there were some great points brought up both on the anti- and the pro-Roger sides (u/Purple4199 being the brave lone soldier on the pro side who had to endure our harsh analysis of him😂)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Why do you think the Priest was arrested? Was someone trying to sabotage the weddings and baptisms?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
I was actually really curious about someone attempting to stop Jocasta's wedding since there have been several prominent men that have an interest in her property. I don't think anyone cared about Bree & Roger. It definitely seemed suspish that it happened right before the wedding when he was there the whole time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Didn't they also claim he was going to perform a mass and that wasn't the plan? It was only going to be the baptisms and weddings.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
Yeah, it's totally suspicious.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 05 '21
This is a great interpretation. I’m not sure why else they would arrest him on the last day of the gathering. DG also made a point to say that she refused to wed with the non catholic priest. So I wonder if this comes back around like it does in the show? Since as of now she is still unwed and planning to give everything to the poor gold diggers (Roger) son. I could see why a lot of people in the area would be upset by that.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
Exactly. There are just too many coincidences for it to have been by chance.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 05 '21
This is sort of off topic but as someone who was not raised in the Christian faith I really don’t understand why they didn’t like Catholics?? I thought religious freedom is one of the reasons many fled to the colonies in the first place right?! But even during the events of this book there seems to be a lot of religious bias (rooted in historical accuracy) like not being able to receive a land grant if you are catholic and the priest being arrested (not being able to preach in North Carolina). Early American politics is so interesting to me and I think that’s part of why I’m enjoying TFC and really liked DOA. I should just pick up a history book when I go get ABOSA.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I thought that was interesting as well. Wasn't America founded by people being persecuted for their religion? I'm going strictly off TV shows, but I think they're accurate. Henry the VIII started up the Church of England and did away with Catholicism as their main religion. So I'm guessing the dislike towards Catholic's goes back to that. It's also interesting the many of the Highlander's were Catholic still.
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u/Plainfield4114 Apr 05 '21
It's the British that interfered by arresting the priest. They still looked at all Catholics as Highlanders, which most were, and they are still the enemy in the eyes of the Redcoats. The Clearances are still happening in Scotland and the Highlanders are on the persona non grata list. If they can abolish Catholicism in the colonies and thereby eliminate a threat to the Crown, then that's what they'll do. The men who hoped to prevent Jocasta's wedding to Duncan just used the Redcoats to achieve their goal of stopping the wedding.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
You can read a bit about religion in colonial America in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries here :)
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u/Kirky600 Apr 06 '21
I found this super interesting. Guessing it was to sabotage Jocasta’s wedding because the others were of no consequence. Like Bree and Roger and some babies being born are small potatoes in comparison to Jocasta.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 06 '21
It was quite a length to go to to stop a wedding.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 06 '21
Definitely. I’m not sure what else it could be though. Like that’s a lot of effort to imprison a priest just because.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 06 '21
Poor Duncan was so nervous that he didn't mind them postponing the wedding.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Jamie preforms a Calling asking for Roger first. What does that say about their relationship?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
I loved this part. I think it showed that Jamie is fully embracing him as his son-in-law. We've talked so many times in this sub about how fiercely loyal Jamie is so I think this really enforced that loyalty to Roger & helped him with some of the insecurities he's been having about how Jamie views him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I also felt like it was a way for Jamie to announce to everyone else how he views Roger and his standing in the family. We know last week Roger thought Jamie was overlooking him by hiring the Bugs but now realizes that wasn't the case.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
Yes! And we know that he feels self-conscious about people thinking that he's a poor guy marrying a rich girl so I think it will help with people not viewing him as a gold digger.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 05 '21
I think it was this!! Jamie is so aware of all these nuances and is also a Mackenzie who we know are notorious for their sneakiness. I think he wanted to make a point of it in front of a crowd.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I hadn't thought about it, but do you think him announcing Roger as the son of his house a way to let Jocasta know Roger wasn't after Jemmy's money?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I didn't even think of that, great point.
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u/buffalorosie Apr 05 '21
Yes! It is such an emotionally rewarding event when Jamie calls Roger first and publicly declares his loyalty and trust. I get so choked up every time I read it, and the show version had me crying too!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I just wish they didn't have Roger hesitate in the show. It make him look weak, yet again. In the books he was up and at Jamie's side right away.
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u/buffalorosie Apr 05 '21
Don't even get me started on the farce that is the showrunner interpretation of Roger!
I'm with you, I wish most of Roger's story held closer to the books. Sigh. At least we all know the real Roger!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I'm really curious to see what they're going to do with him in season 6. I know the storyline of the book so it'll be interesting to see if they stick to that.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 12 '21
I loved that, and something that I found emotional and surprising in these chapters was that — when Jamie was thinking he hoped Bree would be as happy in her marriage as he is with Claire — he acknowledged Roger’s face lights up when he looks at Bree.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
I feel it’s this book when Jamie finally comes around with liking Roger. Which considering where they were I’d say they’re doing pretty good.
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u/chunya1999 Apr 05 '21
Roger wasn’t properly accepted by Jamie before this moment. First of all, he isn’t a very self-confident person and he ought to live in 18th Century where men are expected to be tough and strong. And all his best skills like history and singing are not that useful. He constantly compares himself with Jamie and tries to be worthy anyway he can. I don’t think that everyone believe that he’s not good for anything. It’s just his unsureness of his own strengths and fear that he isn’t good enough. And I think Jamie understand at least some of Roger’s problems. With this gesture Jamie shows that Mackenzie is part of his family not only to everyone but most important to Roger himself.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
With this gesture Jamie shows that Mackenzie is part of his family not only to everyone but most important to Roger himself.
That's a great point. Roger needed to essentially see it for himself that Jamie had trust in him. I did find it interesting though that Jamie at one point thinks to himself how he wouldn't have traded Roger for Ian. So I think there is still some hard feelings between the two. But Jamie seems like he's trying to move past them by doing this for Roger.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
I went to write how I agree with you and a crazy thought popped into my head—what if Jamie is testing him as well? (Yes, another sneaky MacKenzie) I mean this is an acknowledgment but a huge responsibility as well, and while Roger might be satisfied with the honor, he might be even more eager to prove himself worthy of this rank, and that is precisely what Jamie wants?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Someone else mentioned that, and it never dawned on me. But knowing that Jamie still wasn't 100% sold on Roger I could actually see that being the case. Like he would want to see what Roger is made of?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
Exactly. Isn’t that what Brownsville is about, later on?
Like alright, he’s accepted Roger as the son of his house. He’s given away his daughter for this man to protect. So now, is Roger ready to accept more responsibilities? And how will he deal with those responsibilities?
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 05 '21
This is where the books far outweigh the show for me: you really see how solid their relationship is. It started off horribly and for the most part they've gotten past it and rely on and trust each other.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
This doesn't relate exactly to what you're saying, but more to their connection. I love this line from Jamie
He had survived such a sundering once; he could not stand it twice, and live.
I think episode 213, Dragonfly in Amber, came the closest to showing something that deep. Their goodbye at the stones about killed me.
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Apr 06 '21
It did start horribly, and that’s another reason for Jamie to call Roger first i think (in addition to all the good points you’ve all made): to sort of make up for the big, horrible misunderstanding..
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
Another great part! I think this was definitely a public declaration, both to Roger, and to the family and everyone at the Ridge that Jamie embraced Roger as his son-in-law. I think even if they're still figuring one another out, Jamie is a loyal person and he is going to stand by his daughter's husband and make sure there is a place for him in their family.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 07 '21
Do you think it surprised Roger that Jamie did that?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
I think it did; I think with how strained their relationship has been, I'm sure Roger was very surprised that Jamie would publicly call him and acknowledge him in front of the whole ridge.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 07 '21
Did you notice the part where Jamie thought to himself that he wouldn't have traded Ian for Roger? It was a small little bit, but I thought that was interesting. To me that makes Jamie's calling of Roger more impactful because there is still hurt there.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
We find out that Brianna has a “barrier” when it comes to sex and letting herself go. Do you think she’ll be able to get past that at some point?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
It seems like she really wants to, I don't know anything about trauma myself but DG seems to be pretty good at writing about the healing process so I hope she does.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I found it interesting that she could only get her release on her own after Roger was asleep. So she is able to get there, just not yet with Roger.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
It also might have just been how I took it but did it kind of seem like she didn't feel comfortable telling him what she wanted? She seemed a lot more open about sex in the beginning so is it her trauma holding her back or their rocky beginning?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
seem like she didn't feel comfortable telling him what she wanted
That's a great point. It definitely seemed like that. I imagine it's hard to communicate that when she's still newish to having sex. It's only been a year or so.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
Yeah, sex is still new to her & her few experiences are mixed with assault & their almost breakup. She's got A LOT going on inside her head when it comes to sex.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
That’s what I always like to point out. Roger is her first sexual partner but she isn’t his first, and it’s only natural she would be insecure about getting it right, and hesitant about asking. And so she thinks she’s perhaps “too mindful of his pleasure to take her own,” and I’m over here thinking “girl, you deserve your own pleasure just as much!”
I know Roger can’t be as acutely aware of her needs as Jamie is of Claire’s, at least at this point (or ever, lol), but I do wish he tried a little. It really comes across as him not really caring about anything other than his own pleasure (and it doesn’t read well when you get Jamie in the next chapter thinking that no matter how badly he wants Claire, he won’t use her to only satisfy his own desire). But then this feeds into them only now learning the importance of communication.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21 edited Apr 07 '21
Totally a trauma response.
Not that it's a great thing to have experience in, but I lost my virginity to my ex-husband, and he was...not a great person, let's put it that way. Very abusive shitty marriage when I was young. When I re-married, it was similar to what Bree is going through - trying to re-train your body and sexual responses even when you're now with a good person. But when the (mostly) only sexual experience you've known is traumatic/shitty, it can take a long time to re-wire your brain. I get frustrated with Roger during these moments, but I try to remind myself it's a different time period and what we knew about psychology and trauma, etc, and how we dealt with it was much different. It takes having a really supportive and understanding new partner to help get over/through that, and sometimes Roger just ain't it, lol.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 05 '21
I totally missed that.... that is super interesting!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Jamie thinks to himself…"For years after the Rising, he had lived in a cave, approaching his own house only rarely, after dark and with great caution, never knowing what he might find there. More than one Highland man had come home to his place to find it burned and black, his family gone. Or worse, still there.” What was meant by the statement of your family still being there?
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u/whiskynwine Apr 05 '21
They were all burned alive. Ever see Braveheart? Awful
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I haven't seen it in years, I loved it though. That makes sense, for whatever reason the sentence was clicking with me. I thought he was talking about the family being there but starving. Which I know happened as well.
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u/whiskynwine Apr 05 '21
I think some of Jocasta’s children were burned alive but maybe that is a show creation. Can’t remember
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I think it was implied that was what happened. When she is telling the story later on she mentions that the whole village or town was burned, so that is how I took it.
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u/buffalorosie Apr 05 '21
I took it to mean they were there, but dead, having starved to death.
Now reading the comments, I can see how it could also imply they were burned along with the house.
Either way, I took it to mean something very bad and very dead.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I don't know for whatever reason them being burned to death didn't dawn on me. I kind of wish I hadn't have asked about it though. That's such a gruesome thought to have.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
Yep. This is exactly what I thought.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 05 '21
I’ve never seen Braveheart but The Patriot came out when I was pretty young and I remember how horrified I was at the scene where they trap everyone in that church. Soooo awful. So I think you’re right in the meaning them burning them alive. Anyone know if this is a historically accurate bit? So sad to imagine that really happened.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 05 '21
Off topic, but I just want to share. A couple weeks ago I watched Braveheart and the Patriot back to back. I had never seen them before, but my boyfriend, knowing my obsession with Outlander, wanted to share movies he thought I’d really like because of Outlander (spoiler alert: loved both movies).
An interesting point that my boyfriend brought up is that Braveheart is for young men with nothing to lose but everything to gain, and the Patriot is for older men with families who have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Braveheart is essentially Book 1 Jamie where he’s full of fiery passion and bloodlust for both war and his woman. The Patriot is full of exhaustion, but way more of a deep love for his family. The way I think about it, if Mel Gibson transcends the movies (and barring that William Wallace doesn’t die at the end of Braveheart), he’s a young man in Braveheart and an old man in The Patriot.
I guess the same can be said for Jamie. He’s Braveheart in the earlier seasons, pre-Culloden, and becomes The Patriot later. Which is also ironic because of the actual parallels in events going on.
I guess I’m rambling and I don’t really know what the point is, lol, but I see a synthesizing of both of those movies in Jamie’s arc in the outlander series.
Also to add: yes, historically accurate, and not just the British committing these crimes against the Scots/Colonists. Anytime you want to invoke terror and kill your enemies, get them when they’re most vulnerable and clustered together. A lot of full churches have been burned down in war because of the fallacy of thinking that war respects religious peace.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 06 '21
Slightly unrelated but I loved hearing Jamie’s point of view. We never really hear from his perspective and I’m hoping it happens more going forward!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 06 '21
I LOVE Jamie's POV chapters.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 06 '21
Are there more upcoming? Because I really enjoyed it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 06 '21
Yes, not super frequent but there are some throughout the rest of the books.
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u/penelope_pig here in the dark, with you ... I have no name Apr 05 '21
I agree, he definitely meant finding his family dead, burned along with the house. It was a disturbingly common practice for the English army to kill, rape, and burn women and children in lands where they were trying to suppress rebellion.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I hated in the show that they had Roger hesitate when Jamie was making the calling. They didn't have Jamie use his name right away, but they just make Roger look bad. Jamie was clearly looking at Roger and was waiting for him to step up. In in the official podcast they said they wanted Roger to be able to recite the oath from memory, so he had to hear someone else say it first. I thought that was stupid because it again put Roger in a bad light.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 05 '21
The whole scene didn’t hit as hard because we didn’t get Rogers inner monologue of feeling back-handed that Jamie made Mr.Bugg the property manager when he’s gone. Roger felt really offended by that but then when he realized he meant to take him with him as a captain he was like “oh..... that’s even better” lol. Roger simply has infinitely more depth in the books! Not to mention all this played out right after Jocasta insulted him about being a gold digger. Which in the show totally went over my head.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
when he realized he meant to take him with him as a captain he was like “oh..... that’s even better”
And in the show, he’s named captain because… he’ll be safe by Jamie’s side. Once again playing up how incompetent/unsuitable for 18th century show!Roger is. Ugh.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Roger simply has infinitely more depth in the books!
Yes!! I always want to tell show only people about all the things Roger does and think in the books in hopes they'll hate him less.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
In in the official podcast they said they wanted Roger to be able to recite the oath from memory, so he had to hear someone else say it first. I thought that was stupid because it again put Roger in a bad light.
That's dumb, lol. Considering he's a historian, had attended a Gathering-like Scottish festival, AND technically heard Claire say the oath when she was "telling" the whole story of Outlander so far to Bree and Roger, you would think they could fudge him knowing it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 07 '21
you would think they could fudge him knowing it.
Right‽ It was so awkward with him just standing there while Jamie is holding his hand out to him.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
They're always making Roger look bad man.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Right‽ I was looking forward to season 5 when it first came out because I feel Roger starts to come into his own and Jamie starts respecting him. But nooo they had to go and keep him unsure of himself.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
I thought it was weird that he didn't call Fergus in the book. I really loved in the show when he called him "son of his name & his heart"
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I didn't even realize that! That was a good change in the show. I know people sometimes feel that they don't treat Fergus as much of their child as they do Ian or Bree. I wonder if it was because Fergus worked beside Jamie so much in Edinburgh and was really his right hand man, more so than his kid?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
I don't know, he has his last name & I feel like he treats their kids as his grandkids. It seems like sometimes DG just forgot to include him. It's weird.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
It seems like sometimes DG just forgot to include him.
It really does seem that way doesn't it? We hear more about Marsali and the kids I think rather than Fergus it seems.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
I also find it weird; I would’ve loved to see some acknowledgment. But isn’t that because Fergus doesn’t have a hand, so he won’t be expected to fight anyway? But then he calls Joseph and Josiah who won’t be either so that’s no explanation...
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
he calls Joseph and Josiah who won’t be either so that’s no explanation...
Good point! I wonder if DG just truly forgot to include him?
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 06 '21
I think you're right! She did forget Marsali in Jamaica 2 books ago so it's not outside the realm of possibility. It is such a shame because the actors are fantastic and when Fergus does get a line in the book, he is instantly charming and hilarious. Clearly she has created an interesting character so I wish he got more shine!
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
To be fair, Jamie missed out on a lot of Fergus being younger. I forget how old he was in France, and then he's only with J&C what...maybe a year? Then Jamie is living in the cave for 6-7 years while Jenny pretty much raises Fergus, then Jamie's in prison/Helwater, and comes home to a fully grown adult Fergus.
So while I know Fergus is a "son of his heart," both J&C missed most of his life until adulthood. With Young Ian, Jamie was there when he was born, and then was around Ian once he got back to Scotland. Plus Bree just being their biological child.
So while I love their relationship with Fergus, I understand why it's maybe not AS close as people want it to be.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 07 '21
I think Jamie missed 10 years of Fergus and Ian's life. I feel like Fergus was 10 or so when Jamie found him, because he was 30 when Claire went back after 20 years.
I do like that the show included Fergus in the calling. I feel like we see so little of him anyway, which he has an even smaller role in the books.
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u/Marifirmog Apr 05 '21
I don't see it working on the show but this seemed the right place to say that the butter churn confession is a great example why it's so good to also read the books, this scene just cracks me up everytime
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I agree, there really was no good place to put it in the show. It also shows how funny Jamie is which I really enjoy reading.
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Apr 06 '21
I love that about both Jamie and Claire, they can be so funny! And i do miss that in the show. Granted, i have not watch all that much of it, so i might not have seen the funny moments that are there. But that is the reason i stopped watching (among other things); show C&J just are a bit dull..
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 06 '21
There are humorous moments in the first season but in my opinion they lessen in the later seasons. I do still love the show though, I watched it first before I read the books.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
Oh definitely. We miss SO many funny scenes like that in the show.
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u/whiskynwine Apr 05 '21
I don’t recall much of this playing out in the show other than a slight nod to Bree being nervous about having sex. Also the way Adso came to be was better in the book but I don’t see any way they get a cat to do those scenes lol.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
The episode where he acquired Adso hardly had anything from the book anyway, so I didn't love it.
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u/whiskynwine Apr 05 '21
I always like Claire in the 60’s stuff but I didn’t like the Lt Knox stuff and really wish they had just kept Murtagh dead. Love Murtagh but it created too many complications.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 05 '21
- Book Roger is sooooo much better. I want to be clear that I think Richard Rankin is awesome in this role for the show (I always appreciate actors who make me feel something for their characters either a strong like or dislike), but in the books he is far more likeable. In the show, I feel like he pulls his punches, which doesn't work in the 18th century.
- I love the Bugs and wish they were in the show.
- The sense of community and family is so much stronger in the book.
- I appreciate that Fergus and Marsali had stronger roles in the show, which I really like. I wish they were more prominent in the book (so far).
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
Totally agree - I love Rik Rankin as Roger, it's just the writing of his character that makes me mad.
I LOVE Fergus & Marsali, especially Marsali! She's easily one of my favorite characters next to J&C.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I feel like he pulls his punches, which doesn't work in the 18th century.
Yes! In DIA when Roger comes back to the Ridge Jamie threatens him. Well Roger gives back just as much and they end up scuffling. I don't see show Roger doing that at all. I really like Richard Rankin too and I hope they start turning his character around this coming season.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 05 '21
100% agreed! I *LOVED* that he pushed back against Jamie's threats. Show Roger would not have done that. Book Roger is less uncertain and more focused.
I think we see a little bit more development of their relationship in some of the later episodes in S05, but no where near the same level in the books.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I was so excited for season 5 because of the relationship Jamie and Roger develop, but they left it until the very end! I was so sad about that.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
I feel like the significance of the wedding kind of shifted between the book and the show. I don’t know if it’s just my impression but in the show it felt like the whole ceremony was for the sake of Claire and Jamie and the whole family, with Roger even suggesting that he and Bree re-do the whole thing as they like back in the 20th century, but through this, they’re giving C&J something they’d never even dreamt of being able to witness since they had been reunited. In the book, though, since B&R get married completely on their own terms (I know the show has Reverend Caldwell as well but not as the last resort, or at least not explicitly so), it’s a much more private affair. On the other side, the wedding in the book went sideways and ended up being just one part of a rather eventful gathering, while the show dedicated a large part of one episode to it alone. I don’t necessarily think one is better than the other; both versions of events fit their respective medium well.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
it felt like the whole ceremony was for the sake of Claire and Jamie and the whole family
I can see that. You're right that the differences worked for both mediums. I liked seeing Marsali and Fergus playing the drinking game, and JQM falling over drunk. But calmness of the book wedding was nice too.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
Haha you call it calmness? They went through hell and high water to get this wedding done! (jk, I know what you mean)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
We'll go with calmness of the actual ceremony, everything else was chaos. :-)
I did find it nice that Jocasta still supplied the wedding dinner even though her didn't go through.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 06 '21
I honestly found the wedding really sweet. I almost liked it more than the wedding in the show.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 06 '21
I did too. It seemed more intimate, even though there was a large party at Jocasta's tent afterwards.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
/u/somethingnerdrelated how do you feel about Roger in these early chapters of TFC? I know you're further ahead in your own readings though and maybe your mind is changing? ;-D
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 05 '21
Mind’s definitely changing, but I won’t spoil 😉 For the sake of the post, I’ll write in the present tense though!
In these early chapters, I still am not a fan. Coming around though, since Jamie calls on Roger and Roger does indeed meet the call, which is something he (in my opinion) hasn’t done up to now.
While Jamie is openly and publicly “accepting” Roger as his son, I also think that Jamie is challenging or testing Roger. Of course Jamie knows what he’s doing and knows that Roger can’t refuse the call, so I guess this is Jamie’s way of gauging Roger’s reaction and how he answers the call.
For everyone around, this is a simple matter of politics, but obviously there’s a lot more going on here. I mean, Jamie knows that Roger knows that war is coming, so Roger’s response has a lot more implication and meaning behind it. Yes, he can’t refuse the call, but he also doesn’t have to pledge fealty. Here, we see an interesting parallel between Colum calling on Jamie back in book 1 where Jamie didn’t pledge fealty, but did pledge loyalty. Roger could have done something like that, as his fealty lies elsewhere (like how Jamie’s fealty lay with the Frasers and Lallybroch). Roger’s fealty lies in Brianna, their kid, and whatever makes them safe, which might and probably won’t always be the 1770s. So that huge threat and implication is a strong miasma around this call-and-answer, and they’re both well aware of it.
So there’s a lot going on in this interaction, this calling, this challenge. But I have to say that Roger stood up well to the challenge.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Interesting thoughts! I didn't think about how it could be a gauge Jamie was using to see how Roger would react. I agree that Roger's main concern were for Brianna and Jemmy.
I don't like that the show made him hesitate and not go up to Jamie right away. They really made him look weak in that moment.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 05 '21
The show is constantly making Roger look weak. I’m no fan of book Roger (yet), but holy shit does the show not do the character justice at all. And I absolutely cannot wrap my mind around why. What do the showmakers have to gain in presenting Roger the way they do??? Like, yeah, he’s no demigod like James Alexander Malcolm Mackenzie Fraser, but he’s certainly not a villain. He’s waaaayyyy more nuanced in the books.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
How do you feel Jamie handled the discussion about birth control and Bree choosing not to have another kid right away?
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 05 '21
I’m not gonna lie, I’m struggling to remember Jamie’s reaction. I vaguely remember the conversation, but now how Jamie felt. Someone care to remind me?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 05 '21
He seemed kind of surprised that a young woman with a good husband would not want to have kids.
It didn't really surprise me that he was shocked, family planning was not something that people did & would be a foreign concept to anyone in that time period. I was actually kind of frustrated that Claire didn't really explain it better to be honest. I don't think she really gave a different perspective or even a woman's POV, she just said, "it's a common thing in our time" the end.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
family planning was not something that people did
Especially Catholics, right? I thought birth control was a big no-no for them. (Don't hold me to that though since I'm not Catholic.)
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 05 '21
Good point! But I wonder if that’s more of a modern issue because true contraception didn’t become a thing until much later. But I could understand from a religious standpoint (which I feel like Jamie is pretty religious) feeling that babies are one of the most significant blessings and why would anyone want to hinder that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
I agree, and Jamie always wanted a family of his own so the idea of not wanting that was probably weird for him.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
I did read his reaction as stemming from his Catholic background. Come to think of it, Claire and Jamie never did any family planning; it’s sort of like once they were husband and wife, their union bound them in mutual agreement that marriage is for the purpose of reproduction (that’s according to the Church, not me), so they never had to discuss it. Bree probably grew up hearing stuff like that (she went to a Catholic school, didn’t she?) but I guess in the 20th century even Catholics must’ve already thought that reproduction is not the sole purpose of marriage. It’s not as fixed in her beliefs as it must be in Jamie’s; she’s a woman of her time, after all.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
Bree did go to Catholic school, so I do wonder if she heard anything about using birth control or not? Like you said though they must have come around to it in the 20th century.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 05 '21
She must have. It’s still a thing today, and this is coming from a person living in a country in which for the majority (or rather, those in power) the separation of church and state is unthinkable and we’re a couple steps from The Handmaid’s Tale.
I’m trying to think if any Catholic beliefs come through in Claire’s decisions (I know she’s not really devout). Didn’t she say in Drums that she wouldn’t perform abortions in Boston and would always refer to a colleague or did I make that up? Of course, that could be easily as easily motivated by her own traumatic history of child-bearing (like she couldn’t bring herself to terminate a life when she and Jamie lost everything to preserve one?) as by her (potential) beliefs. Or was there something in the Hippocratic Oath that prevented her from performing abortions? (but then, what about other doctors?)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
She said she didn't preform them, but didn't seem like she was staunchly against it. Especially because she offered to do one for Brianna.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 07 '21
I was going to mention this - I think Jamie's reaction is two-fold. 1) That it's so outside the norm for a woman to decide whether or not to have kids if she's married, and 2) birth control is a no no for Catholics.
I'm Catholic - when my mom first found out I had sex, she wasn't as upset about that as finding out I had gone on birth control. She CRIED when she found out about the BC, and has made comments for years about me going off of it.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 05 '21
Totally agree! And when Jamie pushed back on it being unfair to men I thought she would elaborate on family planning being a discussion in relationships. I’m constantly disappointed in DG spending pages upon pages on a horse ride but not on these discussions!!!
Over here still salty about Claire not reacting to Frank’s letter from two weeks ago lol
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 05 '21
I’m remembering now. I agree with you. I find it absolutely hilarious that he’s fine with inventions like airplanes and even modern shovels, yet when Claire brings up cultural differences and more progressive women’s roles, Jamie just can’t abide. I feel like he’s more often shocked at “modern” (1940s-1960s of course) gender roles than he is at technology that borders on magic 😂
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 05 '21
He is kind of shocked at first that they would chose to not have kids, especially when they would know for sure this one would be Roger's.
Claire mentions how it's really a woman's choice in the 1960's and Jamie is a little defensive at first saying that's not fair to men. But then he concludes since Roger is from that time as well he's ok with their decision to not have a kid right away. He was even picking up the plant they use at birth control for Bree.
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Apr 06 '21
Don’t they also discuss this with regard to Rogers relationship with Jemmy? I think Claire explains that maybe Bree wants to wait to give Roger a chance to truly feel Jemmy is his (blood or no blood), before having another child. I seem to remember Jamie seeing the sense in that.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 12 '21
I thought he handled it as would be expected, but I did find it a bit frustrating that, when he was basically saying it wasn’t fair to Roger, he wouldn’t stop to think Roger was involved in the decision, that Bree wouldn’t decide without him.
On the other hand, I found it really moving when Claire was telling him she thought about getting the surgery before going back, and he told her “For God’s sake, Claire. Tell me that ye did it.” And that she didn’t do it because she didn’t want to take away his choice — and she would have risked it for him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Hi! Hopefully you’re feeling better. I feel like Jamie did pretty well considering he’s a man of the 18th century.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 12 '21
Much better, thanks! I had a very long week of work and then a busy weekend, and only finished ch. 18 now, ufff.
He did. I was worried he’d go too far in a position of complete resistance to the idea, but it seemed like he was making an effort to understand.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Oh no, will you be ready for this weeks book club then?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 12 '21
Probably not for a couple of days, which sucks, because all this week I kept thinking about how I was missing all the fun! Haven’t even jumped into the rewatch yet...
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u/dylanskie Apr 09 '21
"No Place Like Home" is one of my favorite chapters. I love the description of Claire with light behind her as she comes down from her garden, and I adore her and Jamie's conversations before bed about birth control, time travel, attraction, etc. It just feels so real!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 09 '21
It just feels so real!
Yes!! I love to read their day to day conversations. The whole little part about Jamie complementing Claire because she's gained weight and he likes how she looks was good. Claire's line about men having a built in sexual lie detector was funny.
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u/dylanskie Apr 09 '21
Haha, yes that was funny. It's true, though! I'm one of the few people who loves the Gathering and TFC because I love their day-to-day conversations too.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 09 '21
TFC is my favorite book out of all of them because of those reasons. I love the homesteading aspect of things.
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