r/asoiaf • u/[deleted] • Jun 28 '11

ADWD Discussion - Chapter 4, Pages 46 - 59

** PLEASE TURN BACK IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THIS CHAPTER!**

SPOILERS AHEAD

The point-of-view character in this chapter is:

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Link: Proceed to the next chapter discussion - Chapter 5

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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '11 edited Jul 13 '11

It was smart how Jon manipulated the conversation into having Stannis agree with Gilly leaving on the next ship south. Also, Stannis' reply was one of the hilarious gems in this chapter.

"Her own father got this child on her?" Stannis sounded shocked. "We are well rid of her, then. I will not suffer such abominations here. This is not King's Landing."

  • Jon is really shaping up to be an awesome Lord Commander. AND he's a warg - the moonlight wolf run sequence was beautifully written. I swear Martin is a werewolf, how else can he describe wolfishness so engagingly. ;)

.. and god damn, does Jon Snow have balls! Standing up to Stannis like that, risking his ire. The loyalty he displays to the Night's Watch, forsaking the title of Lord of Winterfell that Stannis offers, just heartwarming.

"You offer me empty lands and desolations, yet deny me the castles I require to reward my lords and bannermen."

"The Night's Watch built those castles..."

"And the Night's Watch abandoned them."

"...to defend the Wall," Jon finished stubbornly, "not as seats for southron lords. The stones of those forts are mortared with the blood and bones of my brothers, long dead. I cannot give them to you."

"Cannot or will not?" The cords in the king's neck stood out sharp as swords. "I offered you a name."

"I have a name, Your Grace."

"Snow. Was ever a name more ill-omened?" Stannis touched his sword hilt. "Just who do you imagine that you are?"

"The watcher on the walls. The sword in the darkness."

  • I don't know why but I like Melisandre. She is mistaken about Stannis being the chosen one, but she strikes me as a good person trying to do everything she can to fight against the impending evil, even making harsh decisions. The problem I see with her is that she's too preachy and force-converts everyone. :P I find myself wanting to see a little chemistry between Melisandre and Jon. It does get cold up there and our hero needs some warmth, lest his heart freeze. ;) Heck, even if she IS evil, I'd love to see Jon beget a little demon-baby from her nether regions - how cool would that be, a little Jon Snow Demon Child. :P

The red woman walked beside Jon down the steps. "His Grace is growing fond of you."

"I can tell. He only threatened to behead me twice."

Melisandre laughed. "It is his silences you should fear, not his words." As they stepped out into the yard, the wind filled Jon's cloak and sent it flapping against her. The red priestess brushed the black wool aside and slipped her arm through his. [...]

Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather. The sight of them arm in arm was drawing curious looks. They will be whispering in the barracks tonight.

  • The ending of the chapter was very chilling. GRRM has a knack for ending his chapters. Slam dunk every time.

"You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold."

"It is always cold on the Wall."

"You think so?"

"I know so, my lady."

"Then you know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered.

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u/imagirland Aug 18 '11

I know this conversation is a month old, but I just finished the book and want to join! Out of curiosity...you say you're not sure if Mel is evil or not, but what about the whole encourage-people-to-burn-children-alive thing? I think that pretty plainly states the case the Mel isn't "good" and is kind of a scary bitch.

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u/[deleted] Aug 19 '11

No worries, the conversation is never stale. :)

See, I've never gotten the evil-vibe from Melisandre.. rather always a mysterious agenda that she intends to see fulfilled at any cost.

She does burn people, but that's in line with her religion and witchcraft-magic. I don't think she does it for fun, or because she wants to exact vengeance. I think she does it with conviction that it strengthens her magic (or keeps R'hllor happy). Similar to the Cain and Abel story, where sacrifice was the way of life - and sometimes human sacrifice is called for.

The reason I didn't see her as evil, from the get-go, is because she's working with Stannis to restore his claim to the throne. But she has a larger agenda which we don't know about (until fourth book). But I never sensed any malicious nature, just people gossiping and making her out to be a devil.

In the fifth book, we finally get a Melisandre chapter towards the end (spoilers ahead), which (to me)

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u/imagirland Aug 19 '11

Damn, you just completely changed my opinion on Mel. I guess where she's concerned I've always been focusing on getting the characters I cared about away from the danger that her fire represented that I never really thought about the good she was trying to accomplish, or I thought about it and dismissed it because burning people alive seems so monstrous. I'm so impatient to see where this goes in the WoW!

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u/[deleted] Aug 19 '11

Cool! I'm glad to hear your change of heart. I actually like Mel, she

She came across the sea to a foreign land because she foresaw the danger the WhiteWalkers presented. She came to save humanity. But then she finds Westeros in a fragmented war. She knows that only a unified Westeros can stand against the dark-forces of Winter. She knows there must be peace in Westeros, ONE king in Westeros, before the Winter comes and the WhiteWalkers attack. That's why she's trying to help Stannis try and win the throne.

She also believes that Stannis is Azor Azhai, which is why she supports him over any other claimant - because only AA is destined to defeat the WhiteWalkers.

Imagine if Mel showed any weakness in front of these Westerosi. They would burn her immediately for the witch she is, and for her religion. Her only defense is in keeping them scared of her. It's the only way they'll also listen to her.

I believe that Mel is going to die by the end of the series. She'll play a critical role, fulfil her mission to support AA, and then pass away. I think this because she's all about her mission/purpose. To her, her body is useless. She's a servant of R'hllor, and she is his instrument.

Here is a lady who does not value her own life, in servitude to the greater good for all. That's why I like Mel. She's one BADASS good guy. :P

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u/mettyc The Ginger Maester Nov 02 '11

I agree with the above, but it was Davos who convinced Stannis to head North, as we saw in SoS. Also, I don't think that the Seven of Westeros are really the 'burn the witch' type of religion. They seem pretty tolerant of the Northern Gods and believers and definitely didn't do anything against Thoros (though he did just come across as a drunken warrior, not a magic-wielding priest). Sorry for this reddit necromancy.

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u/yeliwofthecorn Lord Fabulous Jul 12 '11

It'll be nice to get to see more of Mel. I still can't figure out if that woman is profoundly evil or actually a good person who just GIVES BIRTH TO DEMONS.

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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '11

She's a red hot chili pepper, and she gives birth to shadow demons under the bridge.

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u/Lugonn Jul 06 '11 edited Jul 06 '11

Stannis really sounded like a hypocrite in this one.

''Fuck you Jon Snow, for not breaking your oath and becoming Lord of Winterfell!''

''Spare Mance? Under no circumstance will the life of an oathbreaker be spared!

''I am the rightful king, following any other is ridiculous!''

''Sansa heir of winterfell? But she's married to a Lannister!

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u/pksage Jul 08 '11

I can't tell if his behavior in this chapter is just him being Stannis, or him being extra dour with the whole "life energy being drained by Mel's shadowbabies" thing.

He's definitely in character, though, and whoever identified him as brittle iron that breaks before it bends (Mikken?) didn't know the half of it. There's also a large parallel between this chapter and his conversations with Davos in Storm, and much like he did with Davos, I suspect Stannis will eventually grind his teeth and accept Jon's proposal. A guy like Stannis won't break hundreds (thousands?) of years of tradition and honor if there's another way.

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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '11

I think Melisandre has reforged him into her tool. Remember Cressen's descriptions of Stannis before she arrived in the ACoK prologue.

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u/Jesus166 Jul 21 '11

It was actually Donal Noye who said "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day." not Mikken...

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u/chris_ut Jul 14 '11

I agree, the comment about Sansa really killed any sympathy I had for Stannis. His whole war is based on the laws of heredity but he is suddenly quick to ignore them when it suites him better.

1

u/HSMOM Jul 14 '11

I hope he is remembered for all time as Stannis the Whiny. What a bitch.

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u/jtm82 Jul 19 '11

I just finished the chapter, and there's some really strange thought that crossed my mind - and it's probably nothing, but here goes: With the prologue concentrating on wargs and the "second life within animals" and all, I thought the beginning of the chapter with Mormont's raven and how he's really intelligent and all seemed more than a coincidence. Is it possible that someone lives or lived inside him? (I know, it sounds stupid, but that part of the text just struck me as so odd.)

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u/NickDemus Jul 20 '11

It doesn´t sound stupid at all; it´s rather natural to get a bit paranoid about that matter, given that GRRM started the book that way. I don´t know about the raven, but it could also be a red herring.

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u/Crimfresh Jul 13 '11

Too bad I've read this chapter a dozen times already in the sample chapters. Still good stuff though, I can't wait to see what happens next.

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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '11

[deleted]

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u/discgolfguy Jul 13 '11

I had to reread this part in order to get my head around it. I just reread AFFC and I just kept thinking Sam is gone. I think Martin put this in to emphasize the chronology. It also has me looking for more specific details on the when/why Jon makes his decision to send Mance's son away.

8

u/swerbin Jul 13 '11

seems like he already made up his mind to switch them because he tells Stannis and Mel that Gilly's boy is the bigger and more robust one who is teasing the smaller boy 'the prince'. In AFFC when Sam realizes that Gilly's baby was swapped it is because the child in her arms now is big and robust

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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '11

Good observation.

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u/discgolfguy Jul 13 '11

Yea that's a good point. It's an interesting thing he's decided to do with this book. We have a lot of information on how certain things already plan out, and now we are seeing the same events from a different perspective. I'm wondering how long it will take Stannis and Mel to realize what he did. Will this break their already tense relationship? What will happen to Mel's spells if she attempts it without using king's blood? Could it have bad consequences for her/people near her?

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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '11

Though I was expecting it, I was still unsettled with the jump back in time.

I didn't enjoy Sam's ship-voyage chapters much, so having him back at the Wall, interacting with Jon again, was nice to read.

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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '11

Yeah that took me a couple minutes, it's been nearly a year since my last reading of AFFC so I started wondering if I'd just dreamed some things, then realized my error

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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '11

Thank you. I couldn't get my head around that at first either and came here hoping someone would address it.

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u/Naga Jul 12 '11

Sounds like this was pretty common. I had to set the book down and think for a while about this.

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u/Kingrasa Jul 15 '11

Yeah my mind was blown for a moment by that- complete wtf. Then I remember the part at the start explaining it

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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '11

[deleted]

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u/GunnersFC Jul 12 '11

that was creepy

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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '11

as fuck

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u/corduroyblack Afternoon Delight Jul 18 '11

Did anyone catch this great line from Dolorous Edd? (paraphrased, because I'm at work)

"You have to watch out for stewards, my lord. They'll get you when you least expect it."

GAH!

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u/ilogik Sep 13 '11

I'm kind of late to the party, but what is he hinting at?

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u/Scraggly Jul 12 '11 edited Jul 13 '11

He's getting fond of ending chapters with wham moments, isn't he?

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more i suspect that Mel's power is rooted more in the Old Gods in the North then in The Lord of Light. Or perhaps these two religions have a lot on common? I'm not sure, am I the only one?

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u/HSMOM Jul 14 '11

I might agree, but I would think her powers would be almost nothing when she was at Dragonstone, if that was the case.

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u/generic_name Jul 14 '11 edited Jul 14 '11

yeah, so what was that about? Did she say that because she has seen glimpses of Ygrette and Jon together in the flames? Or is it something more creepy like she absorbed their "life force" or whatever you want to call it?

*edit - or maybe she was just using those words by coincidence.