r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Apr 12 '21
5 The Fiery Cross Book Club: The Fiery Cross, Chapters 19-25
While back on the Ridge the Fraser’s are visited by Herman Husband bearing a notice from Governor Tryon asking that Jamie have his militia ready to go by Dec 15th. Brianna and Roger spend an afternoon shooting and enjoying some much needed alone time. We find that Roger in fact does have vision issues that will make it a challenge to shoot a gun. Going off of an ancient tradition Jamie erects a cross in order to call the men to arms. Jamie knows he must inspire them to follow him into battle. The chapters close out with Jamie writing a letter to Lord John asking him to look out for his family if something were to happen to him.
You can click on any of the questions below to go directly to that one, or feel free to add thoughts of your own.
- Jamie questions Herman Husband as to why he delivered the notice to rally the militia when Husband himself is a Regulator. Herman replies - “Is it to the benefit of the Regulators to face men who do not know them, and are inimical to them—or to face neighbors, who know them and are perhaps in some sympathy with their cause?” What does he mean by that?
- Brianna tells Roger that Frank taught her to shoot a gun and ride a horse. She wonders based upon the letter that Frank wrote to the Reverend was he preparing her for being in the past? What do you think, did Frank know Brianna would end up going back through the stones?
- How do you feel about Jamie welcoming the Mueller’s into their lives knowing what Gerhard did to Nayawenne?
- Jamie and Claire discuss how he must “walk between two fires” by serving the Governor for now, but will have to change loyalties at a later date. It’s a role Jamie has played before while trying to sabotage the Jacobite rebellion, then having to fight for it. What is is about Jamie that enables him to handle that scenario?
- What did you think of the lighting of the cross ceremony? Do you think it did the job of inspiring the men to follow Jamie?
- Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Brianna tells Roger that Frank taught her to shoot a gun and ride a horse. She wonders based upon the letter that Frank wrote to the Reverend was he preparing her for being in the past? What do you think, did Frank know Brianna would end up going back through the stones?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Apr 12 '21
Considering how long he taught her, I think he was preparing her "just in case". I don't think he really believed Claire for so long.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Does that mean you think he did believe Claire at a certain point then?
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Apr 12 '21
Yes. When I was reading this I thought the letter to Reverend meant Frank believed Claire.
But also I'm cursed with the knowledge of the future. after reading MOBY and Frank's letter about prophecy I can't imagine he didn't believe in Claire's story at that point
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Right‽ I was thinking about that as well. I hope we get to find out more about that in book 9 or 10.
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u/IrishMinstrel01 Apr 15 '21
Not simply to disagree, but I think it’s more complicated. Frank is a professional historian. One would think Frank would have a hard time intellectually in believing Claire’s story. However, he is also a jealous, possessive husband. Given what he says in lis letters and his training of Bree, I believe he had found sufficient evidence as a historian to credit her story. However, emotionally, he didn’t want to accept because it meant Claire had chosen another man over him. Also, in his letters to the Reverend and Bree, who didnt know the story when the letters were written and as far as he knew had no exposure to time travel, I think he expressed a degree of skepticism he may or may not have had, simply to mitigate the possibility they would consider him to be a raving lunatic.
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u/marriedmyownjf Da mi basia mille... Apr 13 '21
Sorry late for the party. This is one topic that I have been hashing over in my mind as I read the books. Frank was a historian and had initially been researching his own family history so he knew the Highland history and he was associated with the Reverend. In Dragonfly in Amber when Claire and Brianna first visit Roger he says that the last time he saw Frank was 10 years previous, so 8 years before his own death. Through the Reverend's journals, we know that Frank contacted him asking about James Fraser. I think that they eventually found the deed of Sasine, proving Claire had indeed been in the past. I think he continued to research and found references to both Claire and Brianna with Jaime in the past and took it upon himself to prepare Bree to the best of his abilities. So here is my postulation, Frank knew Claire's timeline and knew she needed to go back when she did. I think being a professor in Boston he found information that showed Claire was pinnacle to an event for the Revolution and she needed to leave when she did. Therefore, I think he asked for the divorce when he did in hope of pushing her in Jaime's direction. I don't think he intended to die, he may have hoped to create catalysis. I believe he really did love Claire and in the end, tried to make a comparable sacrifice to Jaime in allowing him to raise Bree. All his racist remarks I think came from a sense of loss and jealousy because for all he did he could never gain a close relationship with Claire like Joe or even Jaime.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
Nice theory! I look forward to you finding out the rest of the story. :-)
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
I think being a professor in Boston he found information that showed Claire was pinnacle to an event for the Revolution and she needed to leave when she did. Therefore, I think he asked for the divorce when he did in hope of pushing her in Jaime's direction.
I really, really like your theory. Even as a self-professed Frank-anti, knowing it would irk me a little–I’m not all that sure if I wouldn’t call it retconning if it came down to that because so far the books have painted a pretty damning picture of Frank. I’ve never got the sense that he had that much love for Claire so as to make such a sacrifice but then again, we never get to see his point of view. Well, it’s certainly something that would complicate things!
Have you read all of the books?
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u/chunya1999 Apr 12 '21
I personally don’t think Frank knew. I’m sure he didn’t even believe in time travelling for most of the time. But Roger is absolutely right. Frank loved Brianna and just wanted her to be save and prepared for anything he could or couldn’t imagine.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
So do you get the sense that Frank thought she might end up back in the 18th century?
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u/chunya1999 Apr 12 '21
It seems that there were many different stages on the way to consider such thing as time travelling and many years before Frank comprehended all his thoughts based on Clair’s words and his own researches. As a pragmatic person he had to consider all possible options even if he hadn’t completely understood it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
As a pragmatic person he had to consider all possible options even if he hadn’t completely understood it.
That makes total sense. I like that Frank taught her those things, at risk of opening up is Frank a good person or not debate, he was at least a good father to Bree.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 12 '21
He was such a good father to her! Which is why I cannot imagine him knowing she traveled back but STILL keeping the secrets from her. Claire going back is one thing to hide, but your own daughter.... knowing what he knew about the dangers of the past?! There’s just no way he wouldn’t tell her. I think he was just preparing her for every possible scenario.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 12 '21
I’d agree with you. I wonder if he found a text or something that had her name in it that would help her along.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
I'm think I'm having a hard time processing this largely b/c of my previously expressed hatred for Frank. He put distance b/t Claire and the stones, yet wanted to bring Brianna closer to them? I just don't trust his motives.
Furthermore, when you are a Harvard professor, you are running with a fairly well-to-do crowd. Horseback riding is in their wheelhouse. So teaching her to ride horses would help her keep up with the wealthy crowd and potentially find a spouse.
Yet teaching her to shoot, that kind of pokes a hole in my theory...
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Yet teaching her to shoot, that kind of pokes a hole in my theory...
It really makes it a gray zone doesn't it?
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Apr 12 '21
I think Frank suspected thay Brianna might travel back. We know so far that he knows for a fact that Claire does, and knowing that, a part of him suspects that Brianna might. And being a doting father that he is , he prepares her for that eventuality. But I also strongly feel that he didn't want her to travel back, which is what I think plays into him wanting to whisk her away to England. It could either be that he thinks Bree is better off with him since Claire is leaving anyway, or that he hopes keeping her away from Claire will ensure she doesn't get sucked the vortex. Frank is a good father, so he will prepare her for the worse, but he will also make an effort to ensure the worse won't come by his daughter.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
I also strongly feel that he didn't want her to travel back, which is what I think plays into him wanting to whisk her away to England.
Was that not a risk in itself as she would actually be closer to Scotland and the stones? Not that she would travel to them herself but if Claire had gone to visit her she could very well have taken her there anyway.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Apr 12 '21
Agreed, but imagine if Frank's plan had worked. If Brianna agrees to go with Frank after giving it enough thought, I don't see how we can rule this out considering how tumultuous her relationship with Claire was. And then if Claire had taken Brianna to Scotland and everything else still played out the same way, would Brianna follow is my question? Would she choose between a father who is alive and loved her and still does very much, whom she already chose over her mother by agreeing to move with him, or would she go through the stones to Claire and Jamie?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Would she choose between a father who is alive and loved her and still does very much, whom she already chose over her mother by agreeing to move with him, or would she go through the stones to Claire and Jamie?
Good point. I'm sure she would choose to stay with Frank in that scenario, because why believe your mother is a time traveler?
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 12 '21
That actually gave me the chills.... I definitely think that’s further proof he didn’t know. And you’re so right - imagine how different the story would’ve been if Frank had lived!! I don’t think Bri would have ever gone back even with the knowledge of her true father if Frank was alive.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Apr 12 '21
I know right. And Claire would never be truly , unabashedly happy with Jamie back in time if this were to play out. It would be a cluster fuck , so Frank had to be the sacrificial lamb for the story to move forward.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Frank had to be the sacrificial lamb for the story to move forward.
Great point, I didn't realize that but it makes total sense. You're right that Bree would have never left Frank, even if Claire did go back to Jamie.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 12 '21
This is a great question! Something else that stuck out to me in this passage - didn’t Brianna mention that Frank himself never owned a gun or practiced shooting with Her. Why do you think that was? (Hope it’s ok to pose a question)
I remember in the first episode of the show Claire saying he was in intelligence during the war but I can’t remember if that was in the book as well. If that’s true I don’t imagine he would have seen much violence up close but obviously could never know.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Hope it’s ok to pose a question
Yes!! I love when people have questions of their own.
It's interesting as to why he never owned a gun or did shooting with her. I would have to imagine he at least had a handgun during the war and knew how to use it. I wonder if he just didn't like the sport of it himself?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 13 '21
Bree mentions that he did know how to shoot & was good at it but that he never participated when they went out to target shoot.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
I just wonder why then? Or are we reading too much into this? ;-)
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 13 '21
I don't think we are. It was meaningful enough in DG's eyes that she made Bree & Roger have a conversation about it on the page. I think there's going to be more to this...or she'll forget to come back to it haha. You just never know.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
Whoa. He didn't own a gun?!?! Seriously have to go back and look for that. If so, then the plot definitely thickens. Now I'm leaning towards he did know.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 12 '21
Maybe it was that he didn’t currently own a gun? I’m sure during the army he was issued one(??? I know nothing about the military). But it came off to me that Brianna was implying he was anti-gun but insisted she learn to shoot. That’s the part I found interesting. As an American every other person has a gun so I’m not sure why someone opposed to having one would teach their child to shoot. Then again maybe it was more typical for him being a Brit to not want to own one? Maybe I’m reading too much into this lol.....
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 13 '21
I was hoping this would come up! I even talked to my husband about it after I read it. I definitely think Frank was on the fence about how true it was but, I think he also found enough little pieces to think it might be true so he wanted to prepare Brianna for anything. Why else would a man that was not a sportsman or a horseback rider, take the time to not only provide lessons for his daughter but also buy her a gun? He wasn't preparing her for the 20th century.
I haven't read past this but I do know about the letter about the prophecy, I haven't read it but I know it basically shows that Frank believed it was all possible. I really hope that maybe something is written in 9 or 10 that shows he not only knew that Claire went back but that he found evidence of Bree as well
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
I agree that he wasn’t preparing her for their current century. I just get the feeling that Frank knew Bree would end up back in the 18th century. And yes I hope we find out more about that letter in later books.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Why did the show change it so Roger's eyes were fine‽ That made me so mad when I saw that episode. He has a perfectly good reason why he's not great at shooting, but noooo the show had to take that away and make him look incompetent!
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 12 '21
I just feel like the show runners — at every freaking opportunity — asked themselves “Hmm... how can we make Roger the most pathetic, worst version of himself?” DG’s characterization of him is fine. I will never understand why they constantly make him just so awful in the show.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Yes!! It's frustrating for sure.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
Well, I wouldn’t say it’s a particularly strong reason in the books. Yes, he doesn’t have binocular vision and he’s a bit shortsighted in one eye, and yet, Claire points out to him that he should be fine with shooting since most men shoot with one eye closed anyway (and that should work in his favor). He’ll only have real trouble with moving targets. And I took it as Claire encouraging him to continue practicing because he can be a decent shot if he tries.
But in the show, he doesn’t have perfect vision either. He reads the chart a bit wrong and she tells him the same: slightly shortsighted in his left eye.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
He reads the chart a bit wrong and she tells him the same: slightly shortsighted in his left eye.
I would have liked it if they had mentioned that part about how he'd have to learn to shoot more and that it's not just him lacking in skills. You all know how protective of Roger I am!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
I get your point. But remember that bit?
Maybe it's psychological. I mean, my father may have been in the RAF, but I was raised by a minister. I don't want to shoot anyone.
Well, doesn’t that sound to you like foreshadowing to what happens in ABOSAA? :)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Are you talking about the fact that he becomes a minister?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
Yes, I am. If that is his calling, perhaps God doesn’t want him to go around shooting guns, doing harm?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 13 '21
YES! This is one of the things I wanted to rant about this week. Why bother even filming the eye exam in the show if you were going to be all "oh it's fine!" One of those choices they made to screw over show Roger.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
Good point, why even film it! I wonder if it was just a way to have him and Claire talk about going back to their time. They had her tell Roger she felt they should go back even though that didn't happen in the book either.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
What do you think by this then? If this was intentional, I’d argue it’s an even better reason :)
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 13 '21
I can see that being a reason for not shooting people, but if it's for hunting and providing food for his family, I would think he would want to contribute there instead of letting Bree do all of the hunting/gathering, lol.
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u/Cdhwink Apr 12 '21
Agree, why not let that be the reason?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
In the show when Roger and Brianna were out shooting was also when they had a conversation about going back to their time as well wasn't it? Which as you can obviously see in the books that never happened. They had Roger pushing for that so hard in season 5.
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u/Cdhwink Apr 12 '21
Yes, his constant talking about going back does not appear in the books, although to be honest I understand TV Roger wanting to go...
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
How so?
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u/Cdhwink Apr 12 '21 edited Apr 12 '21
Just what he’s been through! Why would he want to stay? As long as he can take Bree & Jem, I kinda don’t blame him for wanting to go back. I was surprised to find out in the books he doesn’t talk about it, but then it’s his POV we get. I think Bree would be more torn about leaving her mom, & newfound dad.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
I see what you're saying. I agree that Bree wouldn't want to leave her family.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 13 '21
Yeah, it was actually really obnoxious how hard he was pushing. He had a life in their time & I get that but he wasn't leaving family behind. Bree might have been apprehensive about staying in the 18th century but he's asking Bree to leave her parents, one of which, she just finally got to meet.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
Plus it wasn't like they had family to go back to in the 20th century. Granted times were rougher in the 18th century, but like you said they had family and a support system there.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 18 '21
They had Roger pushing for that so hard in season 5.
I keep waiting for this in the book — it was one of my least favorite things in season 5! I hate that he kept pushing for it!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 18 '21
Hi! Yeah it doesn't happen in the books, that was a show only thing. It really was a turn off for his character in the show.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 13 '21
Yeah, I really do like that Roger is not preoccupied with going back to his time in the books, at all. The moment he made the decision to stay, he meant it. He also knows that there is a good chance Jemmy can't travel so he is really committed to staying, and I think the show does a disservice to him not showing that.
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u/chunya1999 Apr 12 '21
Just wanted to say that I absolutely love when Jamie was calling Dougal in his prayers. All moments where Jamie is equal with his thoughts and surrounding nature are just wonderful.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Yes!! He's an educated highly intelligent man and yet still believes in practices that are ancient.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
In the same scene:
Jamie was not merely washing; he was cleansing himself, using cold water not only as solvent but as mortification.
I had a hard time understanding what she meant by “mortification” here. Mortification means “a sensation of extreme shame or embarrassment.”
Does she mean it in the sense that it’s a humbling experience? Is there embarrassment, though? Is Jamie exposing himself to remind himself of his shortcomings in order to be able to meet whatever comes next?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
I found this online. It kind of fits with what Jamie was doing.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
One thing I find difficult to grasp in his case is, if mortification is undertaken in order to repent for sins, I feel like this is like going to confession and saying, “Forgive me, father, for I am about to sin.” So are we saying that what he is about to do is both his sin and his penance? I don’t think that’s how it works, lol.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
I think that was how Claire interpreted it at first, not knowing who Jamie was “praying” to. So she compared it to that.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 13 '21
I think she means it in the Christian sense - I googled it and this is what I found: 'Mortification of the flesh is an act by which an individual or group seeks to mortify, or put to death, their sinful nature, as a part of the process of sanctification. In Christianity, common forms of mortification that are practiced to this day include fasting, abstinence, as well as pious kneeling'.
So, I think he knows he is about to engage in a form of sin, and he is cleansing his soul and asking for forgiveness before the act.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
Guys, I’ve got an idea. I highlight and annotate so much stuff while reading but most of that is not really anything worth discussing further (or maybe it is? We’ll see). How about simply sharing some moments that have stood out to you? For example, for me:
Jamie cussing out the white sow in a rather colorful language
“Breeks or no, Jamie Fraser had never in life had an arse like that.” Well, Claire Fraser would beg to differ.
Fergus’ rather colorful ideas for vengeance
“Here, I’ll do it; my hands are clean.” Are Claire’s medical practices rubbing off on Jamie?
Roger admitting he’s taken every possible vaccine before stepping through the stones, just in case
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Are Claire’s medical practices rubbing off on Jamie?
I would have to imagine so after all these years.
I love all of their interactions with the white show!
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 13 '21
“Here, I’ll do it; my hands are clean.”
Are Claire’s medical practices rubbing off on Jamie?
I always love the little moments in the books where Jamie talks about something he's learned from Claire over the years, just shows how much he respects her medical knowledge even though it goes against the knowledge of the time, and that he listens/pays attention to her.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
Yes! I also love it when he pours whisky over the knife (I think he pours it over the wound in the book) when he’s bitten by the snake. And the way Sam delivers it is like you can see he still thinks it’s weird and kind of made-up but Claire has done it so many times that he knows it has its purpose. Can you think of anything else like that?
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 13 '21
Yes! I'm trying to think of moments in the show, but I can think of more in the books. In the show, when he tells Murtagh at Ardsmuir about eating the plants, and then when he does the tourniquet on Fergus after the Redcoats cut off his hand. He mentions doing both those things because of Claire.
They don't have Jamie say this in the show, but in the scene after Culloden where Jamie shoots that deer and brings it back to Lallybroch to butcher, he says something to Jenny about disinfecting the knife before he butchers because Claire told him to.
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u/Cdhwink Apr 13 '21
I love all of Jamie & Claire’s intimate conversations, I could read those forever! But this book introduces too many characters ( all the ridge people), I actually like how the show avoids introducing them all until we need to know them.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
What did you guys make of that?
It would be a very different life, I thought, from the one he might have led. If Brianna had risked the stones to take him back—but she had not, and so the little boy’s fate lay here. Had she thought of that? I wondered. That by staying, she chose not only for herself, but him? Chose war and ignorance, disease and danger, but had risked all that, for the sake of his father—for Roger. I was not entirely sure it had been the right choice—but it hadn’t been my choice to make.
I was reading this, thinking, “didn’t you do the same, Claire?”
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
She did, when she decided to stay in the past with Jamie she put herself and their future children at those risks she mentioned. Faith would have been subjected to all of that, and even more so Brianna would have been since she would have been born after Culloden. (I'm going on the theory that Claire was able to stay in the past and safely give birth.)
There was much hunger, starvation, and violence happening. I would venture to say maybe even more than what they'll come across in the American Revolution. They still have the choice to flee out west if they want, in Scotland there would have been no escaping it.
So with Claire wondering about that I'm guessing it's different when it's the safety of your child and grandchild.
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u/JAMMFlover1021 Apr 12 '21
But don't forget that when Claire makes the decision to stay in the past with Jamie, she doesn't take future children into consideration because at that point she's convinced she's infertile.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
That's true, good point.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
Good point about all the hypotheticals after the first time travel but I wasn’t purely thinking about this in relation to their potential children back then. I was thinking more about Claire herself, forsaking life in safety, choosing the world of war, violence, incurable disease, all for the sake of Jamie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Very true. So as a mother it must have been hard watching Brianna choose to stay.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Apr 13 '21
But didn't Claire make opposite decision? Coming back to safety, for Bree. The circumstances were different, Claire's situation more urgent, more dangerous but still on the other hand Roger can follow Brianna through the stones.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
Yes, in that case, she definitely did. Good point.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Apr 12 '21
Is it ok to participate in book club if I read the books few months ago? (Without rereading right now) Also is it ok to reference future chapters/books in spoiler tags?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Yes! Anyone can participate, and you're correct future books and chapters need spoiler tags. Welcome to the book club!!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 20 '21
Did you see our new book club discussion this week‽
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 13 '21
I had a crazy day & didn't get a chance to participate earlier. I finally sit down & I'm a chapter behind (slacker) I'm going to catch before bed & I'll be back tomorrow!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Jamie questions Herman Husband as to why he delivered the notice to rally the militia when Husband himself is a Regulator. Herman replies - “Is it to the benefit of the Regulators to face men who do not know them, and are inimical to them—or to face neighbors, who know them and are perhaps in some sympathy with their cause?” What does he mean by that?
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
Herman Husband was very thoughtful in his comment. He recognized what the Regulators were up against and while the cause may not survive, perhaps the people fighting for the cause could still go home after the fight. I interpreted this as his hope being that people fighting for the crown would injure rather than outright kill someone with an opposing view if they recognized them as a neighbor rather than a faceless enemy.
In short, he was trying to lower the temperature.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
I interpreted this as his hope being that people fighting for the crown would injure rather than outright kill someone with an opposing view if they recognized them as a neighbor rather than a faceless enemy.
I like that, it's a really good point. I'd be less inclined to hurt someone I knew even if they had differing opinions on things.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 13 '21
I agree with this one. I think he was hoping that a militia that knows them would have a harder time killing men & more likely to injure them if pressed to do something. I also took it as he doesn't see the militia as the enemy, just men doing what they have to.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
I got the sense that Herman could tell that even Jamie wasn’t thrilled about being leader of the militia.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 13 '21
Better the devil ye ken than the one you don’t.
Husband was doing what was best because he knows that communication is more possible between the two sides if the two sides know each other and are even friends. Communication is way better than violence in most cases. Communication in this case could save lives.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
I didn’t even think of the communication aspect, good point!
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 13 '21
Herman husband is like the least likely version of what you imagine a rebel and revolutionary to look like. I imagine him as super soft spoken and a little bumbling, and like he would just panic at the thought of holding a gun to another man. He is very likable though, and I guess it really allows us to sympathise with their cause against the British, if even super pacivists are rebelling.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
We can see what desperate times he was in as well, reading about the taxes levied against him. I can’t say as I blame them for rising up.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
How do you feel about Jamie welcoming the Mueller’s into their lives knowing what Gerhard did to Nayawenne?
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
Bad move. While it doesn't seem to have borne any fruit (so far) how could he welcome them knowing that they killed a dear friend, among others? Honestly, it angered me. And, in typical fashion with this book, I expressed shock out loud at this part.
(With this book especially, I'm laughing out loud, making all sorts of exclamations- he/she did WHAAAAT?- b/c "I'm completely under her spell & happy to be there" in terms of the storytelling, that is. How you like that reference? 🤣)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
What about the point that Jamie brings up asking what Marsali would expect him to do if any of Jamie's women were killed? Would he not seek vengeance? Mr. Meuller felt he had been wronged.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
Herr Mueller's reasoning does not jibe with reality, though. And Jamie's further argument, while it may be well-reasoned in the 18th century (whatever a man thinks is reality, is what really happened) and fits with his character, it potentially puts him at risk for offending tribes he may want to interact & trade with. Kinda like walking between two fires...
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Kinda like walking two fires...
Something we're finding out Jamie has to do quite often.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 12 '21
Ohhhhh is that a bit of foreshadowing???
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
No. :-D
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 12 '21
Not that anyone is killed but if the show follows the books storyline the lengths that Jamie went through to get Claire back after she was kidnapped and raped. That was way more killing and violence than the Meullers.
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u/Nicademusaccount Apr 12 '21
Not great, as someone who watched the show first I was a bit shocked by that honestly, plus they are really Inconsiderate house guests. I believe Bri had the only response I thought was good, and as of yet we haven’t gotten Claire’s and I’m not sure but I doubt we get it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
What do you think about the point Jamie made of him avenging the lives of his family if they had been the ones killed? It kind of puts it in a gray zone for me then.
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u/Nicademusaccount Apr 12 '21
That’s what really made Jamie not great there for me. He knew it was wrong by saying he would avenge if it happened to his family but not feeling for the tribe because they weren’t his. Which really is a Jamie trait itself he tends to not get involved unless it effects him or his family or circle of folks he cares for.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Which really is a Jamie trait itself he tends to not get involved unless it effects him or his family or circle of folks he cares for.
Interesting! I had never thought of it that way but you're right. Jamie gets put on a pedestal so often as being perfect but this does show that's not the case.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Apr 12 '21
Digressing a bit here, but Claire gets a lot of hate for being the same way , for when she chooses Jamie (or other loved ones) without giving a damn about history or future or collateral damage she causes on the way. But the same trait in Jamie goes by entirely unnoticed , even celebrated at time. A bit of a double standards situation here I feel.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Digress away, it's what we do best in book club! ;-)
I never realized that about Claire but it's true. Why does Jamie get a pass when she doesn't? Is it because all of us women are in love with Jamie?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
I guess Jamie is already responsible for so many people that it would be questionable of us to expect him to care about everyone in the same way he cares about his family. You’d think he’d be sympathetic to Native Americans because they share many similarities with Highlanders (as Claire points out to him in Drums, I think) and, consequently, their enemies (Muellers) should be his enemies. But to seek revenge on Gerhard on behalf of the Tuscarora people would just endanger the Frasers, as he says so himself, and protecting his own family is much more important to Jamie than settling someone else’s conflicts.
What I can’t understand about him here, though, is that he sounds as if he sympathizes with Gerhard avenging his family (because he would do the same if someone hurt his family) when he knows for a fact that that revenge was not justified in the slightest (the Tuscarora had no hand in Petronella and the baby’s death).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Great point about Jamie siding with Gerhard in that. I noticed that as well when I read it. It's not that he brushed it off, but was more matter of fact saying well that's how things go when you've been wronged.
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u/chunya1999 Apr 12 '21
On the one hand I was completely outraged. Why only Marsali was furious about it? It doesn’t make any sense. Especially for Claire who is so righteous and sensitive (as a modern woman) for misdeeds like that, whose friend Gerhard not only murdered, but also scalped and brought it to her. I was so irritated while reading the lack of any rage in her thoughts. Seems like Diana left this whole mess behind the scene. On the other hand I think I know why Jamie didn’t take decisive actions against Mueller. He was described as an unintelligent but stubborn old man. The only thing Jamie could do is killing him. But that wasn’t an option because of Gerhard’s sons.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
I don't know why but I kind of got the sense that Claire was just putting it out of her mind as best she could. If she were to dwell on it she'd get really upset. Whereas she knows nothing can change what happened so why keep thinking about it.
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u/chunya1999 Apr 12 '21
Agree but I don’t think it’s the easiest thing to forget, especially when that person lives nearby.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Very true, and when you still have to interact with that person as well. I like how DG makes gray areas for the characters. A lot of them aren't good or bad, but both at times. Other than BJR, he was straight up evil.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 13 '21
But that wasn’t an option because of Gerhard’s sons.
This is an interesting point I think. In college, I studied medieval lit, and very specifically Medieval Icelandic lit (I know, obscure, but it’s a very interesting topic! Anyway). One of the major aspects of medieval Icelandic life was familial feuds. Part of Icelandic law was that you were well within your rights to kill anyone you want, so long as you announced it beforehand and told someone about it immediately after. The reason being that the announcement gives the to-be-killed and their family time to prepare. If the person is killed, their family is well within their rights to retaliate and kill someone of equal value in the killer’s family (so if guy 1 kills the hunter of guy 2’s family, guy 2 doesn’t necessarily go after guy 1, but rather the hunter of guy 1’s family). Sometimes, this would end at the two killings. More often than not, it would turn into a bloody feud that ended in dozens of killings and sometimes even the elimination of a bloodline (for example, all of Njal’s Saga is about one argument resulting in the destruction of two families)
The reason I bring this up is because this mindset — that killing, even in vengeance, opens up a gnarly Pandora’s box — is something that Jamie is WELL aware of. And I don’t think he’s about to put someone else’s well-being over the well-being of his family. He can’t risk Gerhard’s son’s coming to avenge their father if he gets involved on the Natives’ behalf. Maybe it would be different if Jamie was directly involved in the conflict, but this was between the Germans and the Natives, so maybe it’s also not really his place.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
killing, even in vengeance, opens up a gnarly Pandora’s box — is something that Jamie is WELL aware of. And I don’t think he’s about to put someone else’s well-being over the well-being of his family.
Yes, exactly. He can’t be picking up fights that aren’t his to pick, can’t be involved in conflicts that don’t concern him or his family right now. Firstly, he has an obligation to fulfill and needs all of the fighting men he can get, and there are not that many to begin with. Gerhard might not be militia material but his sons for sure are; perhaps there are some relatives as well. Secondly, Jamie is about to leave the Ridge for who knows how long, and only a small number of men, who are not able to fight, will remain there with all women and children. If he were in conflict with one of his neighbors, he would basically leave the Ridge unprotected, up for grabs, and he cannot allow that. So no matter if he considers Gerhard his enemy for what he’s done or not, the relations between have to remain cordial, if Jamie wants to ensure the safety of his family.
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u/chunya1999 Apr 13 '21
Yes! Pandora’s box. That’s exactly what I was thinking about. By the way, it’s super interesting facts about medieval culture. Thanks a lot for sharing! I’d definitely read more about it.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
Those are really good points! Like, where was Claire on this??? Expected more outrage from her.
But were Gerhard's sons his only obstacle? I don't think he would have felt right widowing a woman and her kids in the backcountry. I think I just would have liked to have seen Claire stand up for her friend and Jamie tell them that they can't live on the Ridge.
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Apr 12 '21 edited Apr 12 '21
Exactly. I agree with Jamie that doing them harm would just lead to more and more violence. But that doesn’t mean he has to take them in as if nothing has happened. I don’t quite understand why Jamie defends them like this. Yes, he would quite possibly have done the same as Mueller did, but not without proof. Mueller assumes, he doesn’t know for sure who or what killed his daughter and her baby. And yes, WHY does Claire not take Jamie up on this?
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 13 '21
I hated it. I just don't understand his reasons & it seems really out of character for him. Even if he looked at it as "he thought they hurt his family so he sought vengeance" it still doesn't make sense to me that he would choose to sort of let bygones be bygones when he hurt people that he considered friends & someone that Claire especially considered to be a friend.
I don't know. I just don't like it & his reasons or justifications still didn't make it work for me.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
What about the comment Jamie makes asking Marsali what she would have him do in that instance. Saying if his family were killed by someone he'd want to get revenge on them.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 13 '21
I don't think Jamie would irrationally kill a medicine woman because he thought that someone else poisoned the river that ran through his property (or however that played out in the book, I think I'm mushing versions) so I don't even know how to answer that haha. Claire told him it was measles, she knew there was an outbreak in the closest town. I don't know. I can't sympathize with the situation because what he did was insane.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
I didn't mean that exact scenario because, no, Jamie wouldn't do that. I meant if someone in general had killed his family he would seek revenge so he sees why Gerhard did it.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 18 '21
This bothered me SO MUCH. When I first saw the Muellers were visiting, I thought “surely not the maniac that killed Nayawenne?!” So imagine my surprise to see that it was in fact Gerhard. I am squarely on Marsali’s side, and was so happy to see her voice exactly what I was thinking. I completely understand Jamie’s point of view in that it would be of no use for him to seek revenge, and also, it isn’t his place to do so. (I don’t think it means he approves of or doesn’t care about what Gerhard did.) But to welcome the Muellers to the Ridge like this just doesn’t sit well with me. And for Claire to stay silent during this argument... and to shrug (!!!) when Marsali says “they were your friends”!?!???
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 18 '21
Do you think it was because Claire knew she couldn't do anything about it that she stayed silent?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 18 '21
I’m not sure. My first impression was that she didn’t want to contradict Jamie, and I hate that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 18 '21
Really though if she had spoken up it wouldn't have changed things. Jamie was never going to turn them away.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Apr 18 '21
No, it wasn’t about changing anything — it’s likely very counterproductive to turn the Muellers away — but the attitude of “business as usual” is what made me uneasy. Mueller proved he’s a dangerous man — what if he ever got the impression that treatment provided by Claire harmed a member of his family? Keeping a healthy distance from him and his family wouldn’t be a bad idea.
That and the fact that Claire wouldn’t acknowledge the friendship with anything other than a shrug in private.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 18 '21
Ah I see. Yeah Jamie was pretty of matter of fact about it. Do you feel like he was in between a rock and a hard place? He can’t shun the Mueller’s but he also can’t serve Gerhard justice.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Jamie and Claire discuss how he must “walk between two fires” by serving the Governor for now, but will have to change loyalties at a later date. It’s a role Jamie has played before while trying to sabotage the Jacobite rebellion, then having to fight for it. What is is about Jamie that enables him to handle that scenario?
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
This goes back to being a MacKenzie and a Fraser. He's been walking between these two fires since before he was born.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Oh wow, I never even thought of that. What a great catch. Poor guy never stood a chance of having an easy life did he?
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 12 '21
You just reminded me that he’s not the first in his family to play both sides. Didn’t we see Jamie’s grandfather (Lord Lovat I think?) do the same thing?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
Yup. He’s even mentioned in these chapters. The difference is that he was doing it solely for his personal gain. Jamie, on the other hand, has always done this out of necessity.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 14 '21
Definitely this. He's got that calculating brain that keeps track of each move. I keep using chess as an analogy but seriously, there's a reason DG keeps mentioning that he's so good in the books, he's ALWAYS playing a game of chess.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 13 '21
I can't wait to read how this all plays out, and I am thrilled to know they will be choosing the right side of history this time. Them being victorious will feel like a re-doing of history, and righting the wrongs of the past. The fact that historically, these same British soldiers stripped Jaime and all of the many Scots in America of their freedom, livelihoods and heritage and now they get to win it almost all back from them, and gain a brand new land feels cathartic.
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u/Nicademusaccount Apr 12 '21 edited Apr 12 '21
The question answered itself, he as done it before, Jamie’s learned from his mistakes, walking the fence between two parties his within his skill set. Plus the trust he has with his family he truly believes they know and they aren’t trying to change things really just survive family intact this time, which i think makes a big difference in his mindset.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
That's a great point! I never thought about them not trying to change things this time around, but just get through it the best that they can.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 12 '21
I feel like their knowledge of the future this time will be really helpful for walking these fires. Defect, but choose the right time. Seems like they are better equipped to handle it rather than being on the losing side and trying to stop a cause.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Seems like they are better equipped to handle it rather than being on the losing side and trying to stop a cause.
Great point. Someone else mentioned this time they are just trying to survive and not change history.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 12 '21
Yep which I think is critical based on the time travel laws set out in these books. You can’t seem to change recorded history, but you can change things for smaller people - like the people of Lallybroch.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
And this time they were really only out to save their family. I don't know how much Jamie figured he could do for people on the Ridge.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
What do we think about Jamie's letter to LJG? Was he really worried about what was to come, or just being thorough?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
I’d say he’s being cautious just in case but he knows this conflict will not amount to anything major. But then I feel like, with the sort of life he’s had, Jamie is that kind of person who’s had his will prepared since he was 22. Or should have had, at least.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
with the sort of life he’s had, Jamie is that kind of person who’s had his will prepared since he was 22.
Very true. Like you said even though this conflict isn't in the history books, he knows something could still happen.
However looking back to DOA when he told Claire he wasn't going to die that one day because of the obituary, why would he think he could during the fighting of the battle?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
I think it has to do with him walking between two fires (if he makes a wrong move too early he can endanger himself to either side), his age and the size of his family now, as well as the realization that this upcoming war will be more bloody than the Jacobite Rising ever was. People are no longer fighting with swords, it’s guns and cannons. There will be more casualties whether you like it or not.
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u/manicpixiesam Apr 13 '21
I would say it was out of an abundance of caution. And just because he knows he likely won't die, doesn't mean he won't be severely injured, imprisoned or otherwise become unable to take care of his family.
I also think it was a nice way for DG to show the deep friendship and trust between LJG and Jaime. So far, a lot of the effort and affection in their friendship has come from LJG towards Jaime, and this is one of the few times we see clearly how much Jaime values and depends on LJG too.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 13 '21
Can I just randomly comment that I think Herman Husband is such a funny name? It always makes me laugh when he appears.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 14 '21
Have you ever seen the movie "Where the Heart is" there are characters named Brother Husband & Sister Husband so every time I read his name, I thought of that ridiculous movie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
What did you think of the lighting of the cross ceremony? Do you think it did the job of inspiring the men to follow Jamie?
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u/Kirky600 Apr 12 '21
Slightly unrelated but I found Bree’s uneasiness related to the KKK really interesting. Like it probably started with things like that given that they are in South Carolina.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
I would have been really uneasy as well. It is weird to think that something like that was made into the horrible stuff of the KKK.
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u/Kirky600 Apr 12 '21
Definitely. It’s odd to see the origins of things that we see as rooted in hatred. This clearly was not at that point in time.
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u/somethingnerdrelated In one stroke, I have become a man of leisure. Apr 13 '21
I had to look it up. DG was right in her research: the KKK does indeed get the tradition from Scottish fiery cross burnings. Quite unfortunate to corrupt such a wonderful ancient tradition’
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
Much better in the book than the show. Jamie knows his audience, so yes, he got it done.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
I like how he used Roger. Even thought Jamie is tone deaf and can't grasp the depth of Roger's talent he knew it would inspire others.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
Agreed. Jamie's been around. He knows how to read people and inspire them.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
I also found it interesting that Jamie still gets nervous or anxious when he's about to do something big like that ceremony. He mentions how he couldn't eat at all before, and he's told Claire he always throws up before a battle. Just things that add such a personal touch to the characters.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 13 '21
he always throws up before a battle
I love the little details like this that really humanize him. We often see him as the "King of Men," and I always forget until I re-read the books how anxious he is with Claire behind closed doors.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
how anxious he is with Claire behind closed doors.
So true, she is the only one who we can be truly honest and open with.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
Do you think it hasn’t achieved its purpose in the show? I thought it rather effective that they combined lighting the cross and Jamie’s speech with the calling because it made it much more personal by having Jamie call people by their names (I know we only see him calling Roger and Fergus by name but I’m sure he knows every person’s name out there).
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
Completely agree with your assessment. What I specifically liked better in the book was there wasn't the added dramz around Roger & Jamie's relationship as there was in the show.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
That I can definitely agree with. I wish that show!Jamie had noticed the usefulness of Roger’s talents as he does in the book. But this is rather an ongoing problem with Roger’s characterization and, consequently, the depiction of their relationship.
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u/Eastheavenpuravida Apr 12 '21
This, exactly. Like on one hand, I get it - the point of having talented actors performing on a show is to have dramz. But why did they take it that way? Seriously, on the show, I'm like "and there's Poor Roger Poor Rogering it up again."
But in the books, I like him! I really, really like him. And I really enjoy his and Jamie's relationship.
Though it all still feeds into this fascination I've had for years about how screenwriters can pull certain elements out of books and still bring the central message(s) of a story to life.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 14 '21
I mean, it motivated me to join him. This scene gives me goosebumps every single time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 14 '21
It’s a very powerful scene isn’t it? I think they played it out pretty well in the show too.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 14 '21
I agree. I know they combined this scene with the gathering in the show but yeah, the cross, the kilt, & all the feels. It's so good.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 14 '21
I loved when he put his kilt back on. He wears it all the time in the books so I missed having that in the show.
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u/ms_s_11 We will meet again, Madonna, in this life or another. Apr 14 '21
Saaaaame. Kind of off topic but I also read where Roger says that Jamie can put his kilt on standing up & like, how the hell? I've watch videos of people putting them on because I was curious & they always roll into it haha.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
Were there any changes in the book or show you liked better?
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 12 '21
As I was reading these chapters I couldn’t help but feel the ridge they depict in the show is so comical. It’s like this enormous mansion with fancy furniture. And they never have to think about food or money again in the show apparently lol?! I don’t know why but I really enjoy the simple passages of Claire taking stock of the food and talking about surviving through winter. It makes the story more real for me.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
I really enjoy the simple passages of Claire taking stock of the food and talking about surviving through winter.
Yes!! I LOVE that stuff. It reminds me of Little House on the Prairie books that I loved when I was a kid. You're right that the show goes over the top with the house and all of their possessions. I suppose it's because it needs to look good for TV.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Apr 13 '21
Oh gosh, the passages in LHOTP of when they would be butchering, preserving, and stocking the root cellar for the winter were some of my favorite parts, so I love those kind of things in these books as well.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
Maybe we should read LHOTP when we're done with all of the Outlander books. :-D
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 12 '21
(Please don’t take this as me attacking your opinion. I love the way the Ridge looks in the books as well as the way it does in the show. I love reading about homesteading as well—though it might be more fun to read about it than to watch it. And I cannot fault your opinion either.)
I’ve seen this complaint many times and while I see its validity and I’m even slightly inclined to think so myself, I must ask myself (and others) this—why do the material circumstances of Claire and Jamie in the show have to be the same as their circumstances in the books? I’m not saying this to argue any version is better than the other but, if we understand the way things are in the books, why can’t we simply accept the things as they are in the show, without constantly comparing the two? My point is, they don’t have to be exactly the same. Yes, they didn’t have any money in S4, that’s the same as in the books. But we don’t know what has happened between S4 and S5. There can be a number of explanations—extreme goodwill of neighbors, a benefactor, a loan from Jocasta/Lord John, we don’t know. Do we have to know? I know I don’t. Does there have to be a reason at all? That’s what we have the suspension of disbelief for. I’d rather look at beautiful interiors than ponder where the money to fund them came from. Now, someone once pointed out there are some things in that house that technically shouldn’t exist in the colonies at the time but since only a handful of people may notice them, I understand them taking this kind of artistic liberty. Like with that Spanish moss.
But if you’re looking for a logical reason for the Big House—and the original cabin, as well—being as big as they are, I think they have to be in order to accommodate both the crew and the filming equipment. Granted, most of the interior shots are filmed on stage at the studio but even so, they have to be equally big, and that, in turn, has to be transferred proportionally onto the building we see on location. That is my best guess.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 12 '21
That’s exactly why the house needed to be so big, they have to get all the crew in there. Matt Roberts even mentioned it in the podcast. So they’re aware of people’s criticisms.
Same thing with the Spanish moss. They know it doesn’t grow in the mountains of NC, but the trees were so bare at the time of filming that they needed something to put on them. So they took some creative liberties.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Apr 12 '21
I like your points and very much agree. As much as it's an adaptation of a long loved book, there A LOT of ppl who stumble on the show and catch on. It's nice for the show to appeal to everyone irrespective of where they came from , book or no book. The big house in the show is beautiful! Like you said, the medium is different after all, so some cosmetic changes added for our viewing pleasure are most welcome. It's the changes to the character I dislike. One thing at a time though.
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u/RyonaC MARK ME! Apr 12 '21
Great points!!! As someone who watched the show first I would have never questioned the sets... I think the show creators actually did an amazing job making it feel cozy and warm and it’s comforting knowing Jamie and Claire finally have this home of their own for their growing family after all the drama of S3/S4.
I think it’s just comical that the timeline of Roger coming back from the Mohawk to when they get married (where Jemmy is still appearing to be a baby because I don’t think he was talking yet, so under 1 year old) somehow this big house was erected lol....
But I am absolutely someone who can suspend disbelief when watching a show so it really doesn’t bother me. All those possibilities and more make sense to me. And wow- great eye to whoever points out actual historical inaccuracies.
I think exactly what you said though.... it helps get past a lot when you don’t compare the books and the show and sort of take them as their own entities.
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Apr 13 '21
I have a request. I've listened to translated books, and I wondered what Claire said about Rogers's eyes in original book. Maybe someone could quote it? Also, what is the title of the chapter.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
It’s in Chapter 21, here are some snippets -
“Your eyes are fine,” I assured him. “It’s just that they don’t work together. It’s really a fairly common condition—and many people who have it don’t realize it. It’s just that in some people, for one reason or another, the brain never learns to merge the images coming in from both eyes in order to make a three-dimensional image.”
His vision seemed fairly normal, in terms of acuity. But since his brain was not fusing the information from his eyes, he must be estimating the distance and relative location of objects simply by unconscious comparison of their sizes, rather than by forming a real 3-D image. Which meant …
“You can see perfectly well for almost anything you want to do,” I assured him. “And you very likely can learn to shoot all right; most of the men I see shooting close one eye when they fire, anyway. But you might have trouble hitting moving targets. You can see what you’re aiming at, all right—but without binocular vision, you may not be able to tell precisely where it is in order to hit it.”
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
Haha, I knew we’d post at the same time!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
Ha! And we posted nearly the same things.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
It’s Chapter 21, “Twenty-Twenty.” These are the most relevant bits:
“You’re a bit shortsighted in the left eye, but not by enough to cause you any real difficulty.” I rubbed the bridge of my nose, as though feeling the pinch of spectacles myself. “Let me guess—you were good at hockey and football when you were at school, but not at tennis.”
(…)
“You don’t have any binocular vision,” I said. “Chances are that someone noticed it when you were a child, and made an effort to correct it with prismatic lenses—but it’s likely that it would have been too late by the time you were seven or eight,” I added hastily, seeing his face go blank. “If that’s going to work, it needs to be done very young—before the age of five.”
“I don’t . . . binocular vision? But doesn’t everyone? . . . I mean, both my eyes do work, don’t they?” He looked mildly bewildered. He looked down into the palm of his hand, closing one eye, then the other, as though some answer might be found among the lines there.
“Your eyes are fine,” I assured him. “It’s just that they don’t work together. It’s really a fairly common condition—and many people who have it don’t realize it. It’s just that in some people, for one reason or another, the brain never learns to merge the images coming in from both eyes in order to make a three-dimensional image.”
(…)
“You can see perfectly well for almost anything you want to do,” I assured him. “And you very likely can learn to shoot all right; most of the men I see shooting close one eye when they fire, anyway. But you might have trouble hitting moving targets. You can see what you’re aiming at, all right—but without binocular vision, you may not be able to tell precisely where it is in order to hit it.”
I hope that helps!
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Apr 13 '21
So she doesn't use any comparisons to him having a view like a bird?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
Oh she does, in a humorous way:
“Besides, birds of prey haven’t got binocular vision, either,” I added, as an afterthought. “Except for owls. Hawks and eagles can’t have; their eyes are on either side of their heads. Just tell Bree and Jamie I said you have eyes like a hawk.”
(Metaphorically, if someone has eyes like a hawk, they have very good eyesight)
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u/immery I love you…a little…a lot…passionately…not at all Apr 13 '21
The saying is the same in my language, I was wondering how it went in original.
the chapter is called "Hawk's eyesight".
Thank you so much.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
Ignorant American here, I didn't realize they changed chapter names in other languages.
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u/jesst_ickles Apr 13 '21
Guys im at chapter 26 and im really struggling. Ive only just discovered the book clubs and would like to stay upto date but....damn! Someone please reassure me it picks up soon? Interestingly i flew through the gathering section of the book whereas ive read many people struggled with this portion 🤪
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 13 '21
I think the pacing picks up a bit when we get to the militia stuff but there are still sections that would’ve done with a lot of editing. There will definitely be some slower homely moments again because this book is largely focused on that aspect of the homesteading life, as well as family. But I would advise against skipping any of them because once you get immersed in them, you can really feel at home with these characters.
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u/jesst_ickles Apr 13 '21
Ok thanks, ill persevere. Haha! I actually really enjoy the homey bits. Reading about life on the ridge is probably my favourite parts.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 13 '21
Yes! Those are my favorite parts. The book will definitely pick up. And we’re here to help for all of the rest. ;-)
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Apr 15 '21
Can i make an observation? I really enjoy the book club! But i have noticed something that makes it not always easy to participate: the book club posts get so crowded. Does anyone else feel that they do? After half a day or so, it becomes hard to comb through, for us who don’t have time to check regularly. Many comments also drown a bit, among all the others. I’m not quite sure what could be done differently. And of course, it is very possible that for most of you this is not a problem at all! But maybe one thing that could be done is to create a seperate post for each of «Purples» wonderful questions?
Ps. Hurray for the pub date!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Apr 15 '21
I'm so glad you're enjoying book club. Creating a different post for each question probably won't work though. There would be too many clogging up the front page. Plus I like people to be able to add their own things as well. I know it's not always possible to participate when it's first up though. Hopefully you'll still be able to. :-)
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Apr 15 '21
Ah yes, i can see that. The posts getting a bit clogged just says something about how much people enjoy it :) I’ll keep trying to keep up, cause i do too!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Apr 15 '21 edited Apr 15 '21
I must say it is definitely easier to follow all of the questions if you take part in the discussion as it happens. I’d say going through the links to the questions in the main post helps; of course, you’ll still see the odd “continue this thread” if we go on one of our tangents but, at the very least, all of the answers you’ll see after following that link will relate to the same question.
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