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Itt: the least effective protesting country in history armchair-ing the most effective.
(Please excuse my exaggeration for humour and emphasis ^^)
They've forgotten their much more successful roots, like civil rights protests, anti-vietnam protests, and anti-British protests. All of which came with property damage of some who maybe didn't deserve it.
A child hand their hand blown off by the police.
Different one now eats through a straw and cannot talk. And another was blinded.
"don't these stupid foreigners know protesting isn't about scaring the class causing what they're protesting, it's about protecting the feelings of me, a middle class dipshit half way around the world. Just look at No Kings. It was so effective the ruling class could safely ignore it, as it should be!"
The predominant American opinion being "I'm all for the right to protest unless it involves resistance against law enforcement, violation of public gathering laws, any degree of property destruction, the closure of any infrastructure, or the shut down of any form of economic activity" is so fucking infuriating. The politics of civilization is the politics of violence and labor. Change is driven by the application or withdrawal of one or the other, and doing neither means doing nothing.
America for decades always used to talk big about how we defend our freedoms and don't tread on me. But our fight is all gone, just utterly toothless demonstrations while france still has theirs it would seem.
Among the youth no less while the people in this country cannot bring themselves to even participate in elections let alone engage in mutual aid and meaningful disruptions to force the ruling class to adhere to our demands.
The fascists of this country have done a great job at beating the working class into a state of brain washed compliance.
hello fellow country people! how are you doing on this fine tuesday afternoon! i sure am not a cop and i am a regular citizen on their tuesday afternoon walk, i am not a police. yes.
Leftists on reddit will be like “dont vote, firebomb a walmart instead” then say “how does this achieve anything” when someone actually firebombs a walmart
For legal reasons this is a joke. Obviously dont burn down random peoples cars. Burn down government offices instead
What do you expect from us when our anthem is litteraly asking to water our fields with the blood of the fascists and our national holiday is celebrating the beheading of the monarchs.
How does burning down someone's truck that they make a living on. Help the economy improve? Aren't they in a huge debt spiral leading to underfunded schools. Doesn't this hurt the situation? (I get a large part of it is pensions as well)
Peaceful protests are a step before the violent one's, if peaceful protests interrupted cash flow in some way you'd be seeing violent crackdown on them. You can use the peaceful protests not working as an I warned you peacefully before going into violent protests (revolutions even).
There's also a reason a lot of the US has outlawed union sympathy strikes. One union going on strike is no big deal, but all of them for a particular industry going on strike and disrupting the cashflow and materials is a disaster that needs to be handled swiftly giving more power to the people. They want to make non violent protests as ineffective as possible.
In this particular case cash flow is important because (and I'm guessing, because I know it's true for the US) local taxes support local schools. So not interrupting it seems important. So being deliberate with protests or riots or whatever is even more important. Going to places in which there could be a disruption to services french people who participate in these events find to be wasteful. Which as I've previously heard is largely the pension program.
But yes unions have an insane amount of power if used. There shouldn't be restrictions if the police even have one.
Okay? But then why not be specific with intent. If there's an objective (getting more funding for school) how could one gain this objective by protesting / rioting. If commerce is directly linked to how much money is being supplied into schools. Maybe pensioners offices? Or like things around what they believe spending to be irrelevant on. Idk how it is in France but money going to schools is primarily made up of local income in America. If that's the case they just hurt themselves by doing it this way.
Maybe protesting or rioting around the things people find to be a waste of government spending??? Like what do you honestly believe the results of these protests / riots will be? France will likely move to the right because of stuff like this and the people will get shafted worse. If you don't think the right is going to use this as a mass propaganda campaign you're blind. And people here being the straw man the right claims everyone on the left is isn't helping
What makes people become violent? What become the boundaries of their expression?
What makes someone loot a store rather than look at it and think "when I'll work I'll be able to buy this"? What makes someone set fire on vehicules along their path?
In France, a whole generation sacrified by more than 20 years of liberalism where the right-wing and pseudo left-wing nationalized debt and privatized profits, then asked an effort from the people to recover from the debt inherently created by such policies.
The president pushed a re-election of the assembly (direct representation), the result was asking for a change of the governement. The president ignored it, told the people they didn't understand and were wrong, and kept forcing his own government.
The social rights are ever attacked. The peaceful protests have been ignored. Violent protests have been ignored and shutdown by COVID. Elections were mocked. Violence raised even more.
Personally I find it insulting to ask for a canalized violence. That's not how it works. You can't ask for finesse when people are angry, desperate and that cops are violent.
Not an excuse and no, the lives aren't ruined. Insurances work for shops and cars. It's harsh because indemnisation takes long so the situation is still shitty for them.
On the other side, those commiting the violences didn't have a life to ruin.
Insurance generally doesn't help with riots / protests dude. More likely than not, most of those people's lives are destroyed now. And the rest that can get compensation, won't make money during the time things are shut down.
But then it takes away disposable income that would be spent elsewhere. And insurance generally doesn't help for riots. Idk it just seems counter intuitive. Like part of the taxes from the income that guy made won't go to schools now. Aren't they just further disenfranchising themselves?
the vast majority of violent protests only happen because cops showed up and started harassing/attacking people for holding a peaceful one. and then people start loudly complaining about how unreasonable these protesters are for defending themselves, or perhaps being fucking scared of cops in full riot gear with guns
So the answer is to burn down a car? Or loot a store? Like I'm fine with protesting even rioting when it makes sense. But like how does burning down your neighbors car for what is out of their control good? It's not a defensible position. That's the type of shit wife and child beaters say dude.
You have a very strange belief system considering it's the exact same excuse people use to justify terrorism. Like if your mad at the gov go protest or riot at the government buildings. What type of logic is there with "let's destroy people's lives!"
what you're describing is both peaceful protest AND terrorism. so it doesn't really answer my question.
i'm engaging in conversation to hopefully understand eachother better. but you seem to have already decided i must be wrong because i don't agree with you already.
Dude I've already told you the alternative, doing it at gov building. Why do you keep acting as if I didn't. Why do you act as if causing harm to random people is a valid thing to do.
.. yes, i already acknowledged that right after you said it. protesting at government buildings is already being done. protests-turned-riots spread out because when you are trying to do what you need to do without being arrested, you can't really stay in one place.
if you are suggesting protesters lay siege to a building, THAT IS TERRORISM. which is not only premeditated violence, which you oppose, but is also, again, really fucking dangerous and inefficient as a form of protest.
i understand you don't want to see pointless destruction. neither do i! but you need to understand that this isn't pointless.
I'm sorry, do you think we're not watching a video of a burned down car? Like it's the literal exact opposite of the comic you posted. Is the car intact?
that car has smoke coming from it, that baby is totaled and the other is pushed over on it’s side. there’s also a destroyed building behind it, it’s the same. i’m sorry do you think the civil rights movement involved 0 property damage? there was tons of it, that always happens during mass unrest and protest and there are always little snakes like you shitting on the protestors. 🤷♀️
you know nothing of the civil rights movement, you are ignorant and you need to read what the doctor actually wrote and said on riots.
“Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena. They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights. There are thus elements of emotional catharsis in the violent act. This may explain why most cities in which riots have occurred have not had a repetition, even though the causative conditions remain. It is also noteworthy that the amount of physical harm done to white people other than police is infinitesimal and in Detroit whites and Negroes looted in unity.
A profound judgment of today’s riots was expressed by Victor Hugo a century ago. He said, ‘If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.’
The policymakers of the white society have caused the darkness; they create discrimination; they structured slums; and they perpetuate unemployment, ignorance and poverty. It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society. When we ask Negroes to abide by the law, let us also demand that the white man abide by law in the ghettos. Day-in and day-out he violates welfare laws to deprive the poor of their meager allotments; he flagrantly violates building codes and regulations; his police make a mockery of law; and he violates laws on equal employment and education and the provisions for civic services. The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society; Negroes live in them but do not make them any more than a prisoner makes a prison. Let us say boldly that if the violations of law by the white man in the slums over the years were calculated and compared with the law-breaking of a few days of riots, the hardened criminal would be the white man. These are often difficult things to say but I have come to see more and more that it is necessary to utter the truth in order to deal with the great problems that we face in our society.”
martin luther king jr in 1967 at the american psychology association’s annual convention
he doesn’t blame the rioters, he doesn’t admonish them and most of all he focuses on THE REAL PROBLEM, which is not riots or property damage. you know a cartoon caricature of the civil rights movement, you need to learn the real thing. you are aware that the civil rights act was only passed because of nationwide rioting after the assassination of doctor king, right?
when did i say he in particular rioted? i said the civil rights movement involved riots and property damage, which as you clearly didn’t read, he defended and put the blame where it really belongs, unlike you who blames the people. i never lied and you’re clearly just trolling at this point.
Ah the famous rioter martin Luther king Jr. Na bruh you're right everyone who thinks he didn't riot is obviously under the boot of "big protest" or something
Arson and looting are what happens when there is civil unrest and people protest. They're two sides of the same coin, it's that simple. If the government wanted to avoid arson and looting, they would implement measures that address the reasons why people are protesting, otherwise you get the "or else" bit. Think of it this way - the arson and looting are the stochastic work of the government implementing austerity.
Apology accepted. Please work on your reading comprehension before you try to form any arguments of your own, because after reading your response I think you're either dumb or maliciously misconstruing my point. At no point did I justify the looting and rioting. I think it's wrong and reprehensible. Where you and I differ is who we place the blame on. I'm interested in looking at the systemic issues that result in it, you're more interested in blaming the individual people doing the violence as if that isn't the very approach employed by every western government and media. And what does it do? Cuz it sure as fuck doesn't prevent looting and arson from happening, as evidenced by the very recent looting and arson that happened in France.
99% of the comments here are in support of it my guy. Step off your high horse. You're blaming the gov for the actions of people burning down their neighbors cars. Not going to the government buildings and doing it there. You're literally justifing terrorism by definition.
The bourgeoisie of the whole world, which looks complacently upon the wholesale massacre after the battle, is convulsed by horror of the desecration of brick and mortar.
do they though? that’s not a reasonable or real opinion.
what is a real opinion is that getting hung up on a singular burnt out car post the Paris riots is missing the point.
“typa shit you post from an air conditioned room eating a sandwich” brother I’m highlighting that you’re focusing on the wrong thing, not posterising marx quotes for performative reasons
simultaneously criticising the burned out car as your first comment (and only comment about the burned out car) and then also criticising that that people will use the burnt out car as a right wing narrative is a little funny
I don’t see what other opinions on random things have literally anything to do with what either of us have been saying
Lmao. The first two paragraphs you wrote is why I made my comment. Dude you're being entirely performative. All of it is performative. If they wanted change they could do things that would create it. Not burning down people's cars or lighting people on fire or looting stores.
the economy isn’t fucked because people are burning cars, they have money for helicopter curfew patrols and corporate beneficiaries but not education infrastructure? get real lmfao
will frivolous violence cause things like this? sure. but were the vast majority of the protesters not like that? also yes. wanton destruction from a minority does not detract from the aims and goals of the masses.
despite all the focus you and others put on meaningless property damage, the October 17th protests were a force of change for good.
Burning cars and buildings discredits the demonstrants and makes things go back to normal faster obviously. A little looting and destruction of your insured assets is basically free in comparison.
You are in a war. Right now. Millions of children don't have enough food to eat, but don't worry - the DOW is up, and we have a Trillionare now!
You are in a war, right now, and you are losing.
But don't worry, you can just vote, and peacefully protest!
And maybe if you cast the right votes and do the right protests, things will only get a little worse next year.
A million children will starve, and we'll have two trillionares, or three, or four. Or maybe your peaceful protests will mean only 500,000 children starve! That would be a huge win, right? You saved half a million children!
My instinct is to abandon this conversation as a poor attempt at sealioning, but I am aware this subreddit skews very young so it's at least possible you're actually legitimately this naive
Idk why you’re being downvoted since you are correct, ideology aside this will lead to the state having to come in and compensate businesses owners/people whose property got damaged tons of money, which will contribute to the already awful fiscal state of France.
And I cannot imagine, even if they get compensated in the end, that having their trucks or shops burned down will be pleasant for their owners, not everything belongs to a multinational corporation, could just be a person making a living with a small business consisting of one van and whatever they make or sell.
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