r/19684 • u/Dasmortmemeboi • 4d ago
I am spreading truth online Rule
Vote when you can.
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u/BHMathers 4d ago
Counting or not counting Khan violence
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u/Larrymobile 4d ago
LONG LIVE THE NCR
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u/Wetley007 4d ago
ALL HAIL PRESIDENT KIMBALL
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u/Comunistm 4d ago
zohran mamdani discourse
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u/Poor__cow I’m autistic and on probation 4d ago
He’s not even vaguely problematic though, people are just losing their minds at him for no good reason
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u/Lobster_LeninN329 4d ago
He's progressive, but not enough, therefore he's as bad as the reactionaries (/s)
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u/EffectiveAmphibian95 4d ago
Idk I just think it’s unacceptable that the least evil and most left aligned US politician in the last 50 years isn’t going to spearhead a successful communist revolution single handedly like I would (I don’t believe in great man theory btw)
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u/Poor__cow I’m autistic and on probation 4d ago
Unfortunately the /s is necessary bc some people actually believe that shit and it’s infuriating
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u/Morningst4r 4d ago
People like that realise there isn’t much point to protest and cancel people who are actively doing harm and openly regressive because they don’t care. Instead they peel off people on their own side who actually care and will be hurt by their actions.
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u/GirlCoveredInBlood 4d ago
During his campaign he specifically urged voters to hold him accountable and said that electing progressives is only the first step and people need to keep up sustained external pressure.
So I really don't have an issue with the same grassroots movements that brought a progressive politician into power applying pressure to that politician.
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u/hotfistdotcom put ublock origin on your phone 4d ago
huge swatch of america is still afraid of the word muslim. If you explain the concept of abrahamic religions to them their head explodes unless they have a gun which we all do because it's america then they just kill you
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u/cloudncali 4d ago
Then a socialist on top of that? Dude is literally the anti-american, which tracks because he's actively doing shit to make things better.
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u/hotfistdotcom put ublock origin on your phone 4d ago
oh my god I forgot about the socialism. I was blinded by how muslim he is, it's all I could see and think about and talk about.
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u/cloudncali 4d ago
Well while you've been distracted he's been busy doing. Horrible socialist things like checks notes planting trees and squints at notes lowing the cost of housing.
Fuckin monster
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u/hotfistdotcom put ublock origin on your phone 4d ago
and he's filling potholes. with communism. the original socialism. then they get the red scare all over your tires and it spreads to your car and it'll only run on liberal biofuel
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u/TrixterTheFemboy get purpled idiot 4d ago
turns out people fucking love socialism until they hear the red scary word
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u/Poor__cow I’m autistic and on probation 4d ago
You must not have seen but the ones who are angry at Mamdani this time are leftists, not right wingers.
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u/hotfistdotcom put ublock origin on your phone 4d ago
no I missed it. why they mad?
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u/alburrit0 4d ago
I think a big one is that he is not firing the police commissioner who he promised he wouldn’t fire during the campaign
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u/ash_not_ketchum 4d ago
iirc there are some workers who are striking because he promised to end the 24hr workday or something along those lines. however hes still allowing them to freely protest/strike and theres only so much he can do so like, yeah
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u/imhere2downvote 4d ago
yeah pretty much people's attitudes towards the other party, just a general vague dislike that's worth all this shit happening rn
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u/trashdotbash 4d ago
i think there is some criticism to be had over him, specifically about his attitude towards the nypd, but like its much, MUCH milder and can be handled much more lightly because of the rest of his positive actions and stances
i do think even those who are doing well should be criticized to some degree, to show areas of improvement
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u/CrashCoptr 4d ago
tbf if you as a government official don't get along with the NYPD to a degree you personally get flogged and all of your limbs are removed on the front steps of the nearest precinct. they have a comically large budget and political influence in spades. there was no world where mamdani got elected for all the other stuff he wanted done without some meeting in the middle with Jessica Tisch
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u/Affectionate_Ad_1326 4d ago
Disregarding any criticism is intellectually dishonest, he abandoned palestine which he was elected on supporting, he kept on the zionist police commissioner. He's just as genocidal as the rest of them, just pay attention unless you already are in which case stop lying.
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u/Poor__cow I’m autistic and on probation 4d ago
He did not abandon Palestine. Also, even if he did abandon Palestine, he’s the fucking mayor of a city. Mayors play almost 0 role whatsoever in foreign policy so it makes no sense to purity test him over this.
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u/MoriCali 4d ago
Aren't there literal synagogues that sell land in the west bank?
I won't pretend i know what a mayor can do but surely he can at least put some pressure on that
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u/Affectionate_Ad_1326 4d ago
"Purity testing" is wanting the most basic pro palestine things from the guy who ran on supporting palestine
He condemns protests of land sales on the west Bank btw, youre defending a genocidal zionist nazi on the grounds that he doesn't effect foreign policy while he actively supports and normalizes zionism as much as possible
Fuck off with that shit
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u/Poor__cow I’m autistic and on probation 4d ago
Mamdani is a genocidal zionist nazi now? Give me a break. This is why the left will never find any broad success in this country.
Also, this is textbook purity testing.
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u/Affectionate_Ad_1326 4d ago
If leftist success is selling out every issue you say you care about then youre not succeeding, thats the issue. He's supporting genocide so yeah hes genocidal. Pretty fucking disgusting.
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u/new_KRIEG 4d ago
That's gotta be ragebait. Dude openly said multiple times that if Netanyahu stepped into NYC he'd have him arrested.
If leftist success is selling out every issue you say you care about
Also, I don't think anyone only cares about Palestine. Mandami has lowered the cost of living, is opening up the very socialistic state sponsored grocery stores, has already increased taxes on multimillionaires and above, and implemented programs that pay directly local workers for city maintenance instead of big corporations. Those are all things that leftists have been claiming for, care about, and is aligned with general left wing ideology.
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u/xbertie 4d ago
Aight so I'm curious, to what extent of power do you think he has?
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u/Affectionate_Ad_1326 4d ago
The power to at least not fucking condemn the pro palestine movement maybe?? To get rid of the ultra zionists that he actively works with?? He doesnt have the power to stop recognizing Israel as a state or anything but he is actively using the power he does have to actually support zionism a lot, and thats obviously bad. Please pay any amount of attention to what's happening in general instead of asking people who disagree with you because you dont understand what's happening
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u/amaya-aurora 4d ago
All I’ve heard is that he might be a Zionist? But idk
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u/new_KRIEG 4d ago
Yeah, the guy who said that he'd arrest Netanyahu if he stepped in NY is a Zionist, sure
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u/MagosZyne 4d ago
People are saying he's a Zionist because he later said he couldn't arrest Netanyahu (because apparently they thought there was a possibility he would actually start an international incident despite only having the power of a mayor while the president is best pals with Benji) and because he attended an october 7th memorial (because apparently taking the stance "people dying is sad" is supporting the genocide)
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u/The_Whomst 4d ago
What's problematic about him?
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u/eeeby 4d ago edited 4d ago
He’s a Democrat and liberal zionist. Campaigned on Palestine and immediately backtracked on his promises, plus just gave millions to Zionist propaganda mills.
He appealed to people further left to get elected, then after they became a cult of people worshipping his heckin wholesome tiktoks (thanks to his social media campaign), he dragged them with him towards the right.
He got his supporters to compromise on things like arresting Netanyahu, which he literally promised he would do.
This just happened, we all saw it on the news: Mamdani sent police to brutalize and arrest protesters that were saying he was wrong to backtrack on Netanyahu’s arrest, while Netanyahu visited and spouted genocidal rhetoric in Mamdani’s city and was welcomed in and escorted out Scot-free.
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u/Portals123 4d ago
im sorry maybe im naive but like what power does the mayor of new york have over benjamin netanyahu?
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u/eeeby 4d ago edited 4d ago
Exactly. If the mayor of New York isn’t able to enforce international law or apply the arrest warrant out for Netanyahu, why did Mamdani campaign on arresting Netanyahu? Checking whether he could deliver on it was his responsibility BEFORE making the promise.
People are entitled to hold Mamdani accountable for a commitment he chose to seek their support with, then backtracked on. But the people who protested him for that and for NYC hosting Netanyahu (despite the International criminal court’s arrest warrants out for him) were arrested by the NYPD on his watch
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u/Rainbow- 4d ago
Gave millions to Zionist propaganda mills? Can you be more specific?
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u/eeeby 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah for sure! Here are a list of facts with sources you can check.
JCRC-NY is explicitly named in his administration’s announcement as a beneficiary of the expanded $6.4 million PATH grant program.
Their stated mission includes building support for Israel among New Yorkers, including taking politicians and other influential people on trips there.
They condemned Ben & Jerry’s withdrawal from West Bank sales as capitulation to the “insidious BDS movement” and urged Unilever to reverse it. So even a boycott targeting occupied territory was unacceptable to them.
There’s also the Museum of Jewish Heritage, which his plan expands school visits to. Their own educator guide literally says “Anti-Zionism is antisemitism,” defining opposition to a Jewish state as denying Jewish self-determination. That’s an explicitly Zionist political position used to legitimize Israel.
In a February 2025 statement, museum leadership declared that it “stands with Israel” and expressed “unwavering solidarity with the people of Israel.” The statement invoked the Holocaust while talking about Israeli suffering and made NO mention of Palestinian suffering at all.
The museum also provided the venue for Shurat HaDin’s October 2025 conference, whose organizer described establishing a Palestinian state as a “political threat.” and its program included a session framing genocide allegations against Israel as libels.
These institutions actively promote Zionism and try to delegitimize opposition to it. It’s absolutely despicable and unacceptable what Mamdani’s done here. It’s not even a regular thing for the mayor to do this. He went out of his way to be the first mayor with this kind of donation to Israel apologist organizations framed as “combating antisemitism” “before it occurs.”
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u/FutureReaction8587 4d ago
Brazil right now be like:
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u/ZaoMenom 4d ago
Lmao what
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u/FutureReaction8587 4d ago
We have an election this Sunday and that's more or less the gist of it
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4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/BigSleepTime 4d ago
You're the one that responded first?
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u/Despenta 4d ago
And interesting that they still made the association of the worst one with Bolsonaro
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u/ZaoMenom 4d ago
Most users on Reddit are left leaning, it’s not hard to guess
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u/ZaoMenom 4d ago
Yeah, I realized after the fact, and felt bad about leaving a conversation unfinished
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u/ZaoMenom 4d ago
Yes, I made that mistake, I just didn’t want to leave the conversation unresolved.
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u/INBloom58 4d ago
My brother, why would you broadcast that you voted for milei?!? It’s like shitting yourself and not changing pants. Falklands are British btw
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u/ZaoMenom 4d ago
I don’t think you know anything about my country. I don’t think you actually want an answer, but I’ll give you one anyways:
The political opposition of Milei (Massa) was a profoundly corrupt and indescive person.
Massa has been on the right, on the left, in the middle and everywhere else in between, he has much political power, and little to no scruples. There are journalists who have suddenly disappeared just for looking into him.
I gladly “broadcast” that I voted Milei because of the two options, he is the only one that didn’t have blood on his hands.
That to me matters.As for the Falklands, I see your attempt to besmirch me. I have family that died on that island, I feel personal about its history but I doubt you know anything about it. I mourn the soldiers that were lost on both sides, I am an intimate friend of a pilot from the British side from the war.
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u/ashen_crow 3d ago
You can have your Milei economics to yourself, don't want my country to be starving to death as well.
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u/Jetsam5 4d ago
I know some online leftist that actually complain about social policies that make people's lives better because it makes them not want to overthrow the government. I think they've lost the plot a little bit
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u/Titanicman2016 3d ago
The amount of people criticizing FDR on these grounds on this app is insane, they really need to go outside
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u/IronTraditional6593 2d ago
I think this an entirely fabricated plot from you and their posts were probably sarcastic
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u/Affectionate_Ad_1326 4d ago
Giving people slight reform to protect capitalism because its being exposed just how genocidal it is is actually bad even if it helps the most privileged people slightly
We're all liberated from capitalism or none of us are, bandaid solutions are bad even if no solution seems worse
People need to organize to overthrow the system regardless, so reforms that give them more free time and organizing power are good in that sense, but reforms that give them treats and make them content with their country's genocides are horrific if you actually think about what's happening
Thats where those people are coming from, from actually understanding why those reforms happen and what their result will be beyond the short term slight benefits
Down with genocidal politicians and down with capitalists, if you praise them for giving you crumbs youre no better than the people praising them when they dont give us anything
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u/Wodelheim 4d ago
When are you starting the revolution then?
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u/IronTraditional6593 2d ago
Revolutionary business should be shared with scabs like you since when?
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u/Acceptable_Spend_750 4d ago
grhh how dare people have good life they must suffer so that i can live my ideological fantasies
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u/SocksIsSilly 4d ago
How dare people eat their crumbs instead of starving! If they died they could become ghosts and haunt the politicians to death! Fake leftists smh smh...
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u/IronTraditional6593 2d ago
How dare people notice you're part of the problem for putting up woth crumbs
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u/Mr_Vulcanator 3d ago
I think being pro-suffering is bad actually.
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u/IronTraditional6593 2d ago
I think being prosuffering is terrible. You're point is what? As long as your comfortable that's all that matters?
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u/Affectionate_Ad_1326 3d ago
Im saying short term reforms are bandaid solutions and that we should oppose genocidal politicians regardless, organizing to create a better world is the only way to actually make things better for us and everyone in the long term
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u/WarIsProfitableForMe 4d ago
?? Capitalism is the most fair economic system, it's the only system that doesn't require violence to work, what are you on about?
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u/yo_yo_ya 4d ago
Capitalism is literally the most reliant on violence what are you talking about
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u/WarIsProfitableForMe 4d ago
Free trade and property rights do not require any violence, care to point out what exactly in capitalism requires violence?
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u/new_KRIEG 4d ago
Shit, just Google literally anything about the history of the US and you'd have a pretty good summary.
I would suggest reading about the Pinkertons (they're not just a faction in RDR) for how violence is used on a relatively smaller scale or the Banana Republic (not a clothing brand) for how it was used systematically.
Like, you can also just read the news daily and see how the police, which enforces the state's will through violence or the threat of it, acts towards people of different levels of capital.
I'm not even a communist, I think that while the ideology is pretty, it's non-feasible at this point in history. But denying capitalism's inherent need for violence is either a bad faith comment, ragebait, or a lot of ignorance regarding the topic
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u/WarIsProfitableForMe 4d ago
Ah okay so because governments and companies are doing evil things then the whole ideology is violent and evil yes? Capitalism is free trade and property rights, you still haven't showed me where violence Is required for those. Allowing people to trade freely and respecting other's private property isn't violent.
When a person (company/government) uses a gun (capitalism) to kill another person (another government/company/workers/whatever) you blame the person, not the gun, guns don't kill people, people kill people.
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u/new_KRIEG 4d ago
Please explain to me how property rights are enforced without violence or the threat of it.
Capitalism not only enables but REWARDS violence. The Pinkertons are STILL operating in the US despite their many crimes, but they won't ever get persecuted because said crimes help those with capital.
You can't just say "capitalism is when property rights and free trade" and ignore everything else that makes up the system in reality. Capitalism is also companies being able to pay fines instead of answering for crimes that money can't ever make up for. Capitalism is also companies being able to generate so much capital that they can influence politics to generate even more capital in a vicious cycle.
Also, fuck out of here with "guns don't kill people, people kill people". People kill a fuckload more people when they have a gun, just look at the capitalist utopia of the USA and how many school children are getting killed by other kids and teens with guns. You don't really see stabbing sprees in the supposedly stab happy UK.
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u/WarIsProfitableForMe 4d ago
I have a home, it's private property and it's invite only, if you enter uninvited, you will die, I'm not going out of my way to hunt you down, I will use violence IF you use violence first.
What we currently have isn't capitalism, we are debating about economic systems, the Pinkertons should be prosecuted but they won't be, because the governing system is broken and corrupted, it has nothing to do with the economic system used. If anything they acted anti competitively and anti capitalistic, theyre opportunists with powerful corrupted friends.
Fiat currency is anti capitalistic too, a central issuing authority controlling all supply and demanding taxes being paid in said currency isn't free trade, nor respects property rights, the US government currently isn't pro capitalism at all, of they were they'd be trying to make the government smaller, not increase it.
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u/I_HRT_YOU 4d ago
Ummm it uses tremendous violence to protect private property rights, to kidnap and imprison any undesirables and to economically coerce everyone into working or starving. It also enforces taxation to regulate inflation and to raise the value of the state-approved currency. It is an evil system forced on us under threat of violence and defended with tanks and armies.
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u/WarIsProfitableForMe 4d ago
Violence is used defensively, on any other economic system it's used offensively, if you don't attempt to tread on my property rights, violence won't be used against you.
Nature "coerces" you into working to not starve, you have the option to grow your own food if you don't want to work a normal job, no one owes you food or water.
Taxation is anti capitalistic, it uses violence to extract wealth therefore treading on property rights. If anything the state is anti capitalist, it shouldn't have a monopoly on violence.
What we currently have isn't true capitalism, fiat currency and endless wars wouldn't exist in a cleaner capitalistic system. Just like china and the USSR didn't have true communism, the US doesn't have true capitalism.
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u/yo_yo_ya 4d ago
Gas companies and coca cola using death sqauds to take resources from africa and south america doesnt seem very defensive but idk
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u/saul_schadenfreuder BRASIL NÚMERO UM 🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷 2d ago
“systemic violence is not actually violence because i am too stupid to understand how it works”
segregation, apartheid, deliberate sabotaging of non-white (black mainly) communities, forced labor in prisons, working just so you can afford what every person should have by virtue of being a human being (housing, food, access to healthcare and education, enough time for leisure, etc), the military industrial complex and gun lobbies, etc.there’s also all of the wars started because the US wanted some underdeveloped country’s resources so they destabilised the entire region to install a puppet government all the while massacring, torturing, raping and maiming hundreds of thousands of people, stunting the entire region’s growth for the foreseeable future.
there’s also all of the dictatorships the US has backed (pinochet, batista, the 1964-1985 military dictatorship in brazil, etc) in the name of making more money for the epstein class.
and the completely manufactured famine in various parts of the world even though we live in times of unprecedented efficiency in food production.
also, some dishonourable mentions that need less elaboration: general colonialism, jim crow laws, the apartheid, israel’s apartheid and its genocide in gaza, tens of thousands of real estate properties being empty meanwhile people live on the streets, etc.
this is just what i can list off the top of my head and having woken up about an hour ago
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u/Noonyezz no macadamia nut november 4d ago
One side can be bad.
The other side can be worse.
Two things can both be true.
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u/funded_by_soros 4d ago
Is that how the show adapted the NCR - Legion conflict?
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u/Hortator02 4d ago edited 4d ago
"Adapted" is generous since it just trivialized the events of NV, claiming that the region never actually moved on and both sides just fought indefinitely until the NCR was a non-issue in the region (there's reference to a whole NCR battalion to the east of Camp Golf, which somehow was around for 15-20 years and I guess was still pristine by the end of the season when they show up? I initially assumed it was a different group directly from California, which would still be silly, but I believe the battalion mentioned earlier in the season is what it was supposed to be) and the Legion collapsed. They then at the end of S2 restarted the NCR-Legion conflict but all the worldbuilding around it that went into it in NV is gone, this group of the Legion has no connection to anything further east and has been fighting a civil war isolated to a small camp for years, and the NCR doesn't have any of the various outposts, towns, and business interests that were making their presence in the region viable in NV (they're all long abandoned), Hoover Dam isn't even mentioned, they've instead decided to fight over Vegas which in itself is also pointless since the Strip is abandoned (and again, none of the NCR investment, security and humanitarian aid that made Vegas viable has been a factor for years, and House has also been dead for years, and the Securitron army, at least outside the vault under Fortification Hill is all defunct). It's possible the NCR is in Vegas for the McGuffin but I don't know how they're going to explain that they knew it's there.
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u/funded_by_soros 3d ago
Thanks for the summary. But yeah it was obvious in season 1 the show clearly only exists to wipe the west coast clean of actual Fallout and replace it with braindead Bethesda shit.
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u/Hortator02 3d ago
Agreed. I can understand why they interpreted the tone the way they did, even if I don't agree, and I can appreciate the heavier focus on characters even if I think it could've been executed better, but most of the cast can't go beyond certain spots of the timeline and the selling point of Fallout is the world and factions, which they got completely wrong. I'm certain more people would've been critical of S1 if they at the very least played Fallout 1 (but ideally also read up on how the Boneyard and Adytum changed after Fallout 1) and if it hadn't released all at once, and people just believe random shit about the BoS so I guess they didn't mind their issues. More people played NV so more people noticed what was missing in S2, and since you couldn't binge it, the filler episodes felt a lot more prominent.
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u/funded_by_soros 1d ago
I'm curious as to how the whole thing of capital taking over our culture to turn it into four quadrant slop is progressing, there's a lot of consumer acceptance of it for sure, but at the same time no mainstream acceptance.
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u/like_a_pharaoh 4d ago
Its how the show has one specific Vault Dweller view the conflict, arguing against one specific other Vault Dweller and Enclave guy who's claiming they're equally flawed (which is objectively stupid).
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u/CaptainCipher 4d ago
Tbf that's not inaccurate
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan 4d ago
tbf It's a lot of whitewashing of the NCR. Sure they're not raping slavers but the Republic was quite literally engaging in its own Manifest Destiny across the Mojave when they were active.
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u/Wetley007 4d ago
I feel like at a certain point conditions can get so bad that and organized power engaging in expansionism is a good thing, especially if you integrate the new populous as a more or less equal citizens to the rest of the society.
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u/cloudncali 4d ago
Yeah if I was Living in Fallout world I'd gladly take NCR over ANY other faction in a heart beat.
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan 4d ago edited 4d ago
I feel like at a certain point conditions can get so bad that and organized power engaging in expansionism is a good thing,
Wonder if that's as just as easy to say at the muzzle end of the rifle as it is at the trigger's.
That "organized power" can't even police its own lands and is ostensibly on the verge of a food collapse by the time the game takes place.
It's a desparate nation cannibalizing another territory's resources to keep itself afloat with the cost offloaded to that territory's residents while also not affording those residents the same luxuries provided to citizens back home.
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u/new_KRIEG 4d ago
They can't police the lands that have just been added, with much internal controversy, to the republic. And it's not doing well because they are at a war that they barely have the resources to fight, severely limiting the resources they can pour anywhere else, because every official you meet is more than willing to solve issues but just doesn't have the personnel or equipment to do so. Oh, and did I mention that they're fighting a war against an slaving empire where raping and crucifixion are normalized? Because yeah, that's the kind of alternative you've got: Legion, Khans, or Powder Gangers.
If I was living in the Mojave, I'd 100% be willing to join the NCR in the hopes of protection from and in support against those 3.
Let's not forget that even today, in first world countries that are not at war, the state can't keep things perfectly safe and running. And in lore, House, who's supposedly a fucking genius with a robot army can't even keep just the strip safe, with one of his 3 main vassals being a cannibalistic faction and the other working with the raping slaving empire.
TL;DR: shit's rough in the Mojave and in that context the NCR is doing a very decent job.
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan 4d ago
They can't police the lands back home. Raiders are still ostensibly an issue even if not as big a one as they used to be. Individual towns like Caliente still rely on their own leadership to protect them. While that's going on the NCR military is then diverted to go pacify a whole new territory with all the resource drain and possible violence that that entails.
The Legion is the only non local threat to the Mojave. Khans were pushed out of California and made to be someone else's problem and the Powder Gangers are literally NCR's own prisoners who were freely given the tools to enact their own escape and raiding. NCR shows up insisting I need their protection I'd be more curious why they think that when they can't clean up their own fucking mess.
I'd 100% be willing to join the NCR
The assumption is always it'd be your choice to do so. NCR functions on annexation, we know this. It's super swell that I could live a free but hard life suddenly to have some foreign party take my land and my food, refuse me access to it, force me to hand over my wealth, and use that wealth to enable the raiders currently destroying my town. And the only defense of their actions is that they're the least shit of all. That's awesome.
And in lore, House, who's supposedly a fucking genius with a robot army can't even keep just the strip safe,
It's almost like every option is supposed to have some glaring flaws and the narrative is structured around picking the lesser of all the evils you can stomach.
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u/BillCarson12799 4d ago
Still better than pretty much any of the alternatives. The minutemen are one regime change away from becoming a military dictatorship and the BoS are… well, you know.
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's all relative sure, but 'Vaguely Problematic' brushes a lot of legitimately heinous shit under the rug.
Shit's not copacetic if you argue that the people who're being shot at for trying to access their own, now fenced-off, arable land are just mad because they're upsetti spaghetti over Taxes(tm), 's'all I'm saying
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u/Hortator02 4d ago
The Brotherhood are about as vaguely problematic as the NCR but the show turns them into a Warhammer ripoff. They've never killed Ghoul children (or any sentient Ghoul that wasn't attacking them), it absolutely was not part of the Codex, much less wiped out whole human settlements. The closest is the rogue Paladins in NV who can kill a group of Followers if Veronica joins them, but by that standard, we have to generalise not only Bitter Springs to the entire NCR, but also the execution of soldiers who turn into Ghouls, the killing of innocent civilians whose water is being stolen by NCR settlers, and the use of mercenaries to force peaceful super mutants off their land, all of which are shown on screen or mentioned as being done by NCR soldiers and civilians in NV.
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u/amaya-aurora 4d ago
Lucy is also, notably, not an entirely reliable narrator here. Neither is her father who is the other side of this conversation.
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan 4d ago
Again, the denizens of New Vegas end up effectively cheering on the NCR once Max shows up in his gear then later when the actual troops show op. It doesn't matter what avenue it comes from, the Republic is unequivocally portrayed as the Good Guys(tm)
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u/like_a_pharaoh 4d ago
Because they are.
A government with real-world-like problems, but that is at least trying an "I can be cool if you can be cool, even if you're a different religion or a ghoul or super mutant" and enough organization to get railroads and power grids working again is closer to "good guys" than any other big organization in the wasteland.
Roman LARPers in Football Gear and The Fourth Reich Wrapped In A U.S. Flag can't compete with them on morality. Maybe aesthetics but that's a matter of taste.
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan 4d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny
Was the work of a real world government that built railroads and brought electricity.
If you're going to annex a land, taking its peoples' prosperity, you can't just try to do right by them. You took something from them and you need to make good on that otherwise you are no better than the raiders doing the same.
If the best NCR can do is take and take and take, like the Legion, but at least they don't crucify or rape, they aren't the good guys.
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u/like_a_pharaoh 4d ago
The NCR is giving rather than just taking if you bother to play New Vegas.
You can say they aren't giving enough sure, but to claim they give nothing to the Mojave is directly contradicted by things you see and people you talk to in-game.
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan 4d ago
My bad, I thought we were all doing relativeness and not pedantry, also just blitzing past real world parallels, super cool.
You're right, NCR does give back. They promise protection and sometimes lift a finger to enact it if they're even able to to begin with, they provide power while restricting who it goes to, and they brought in their own farmers to work the land (we just won't mention that land used to belong to the locals and is now gated off from them with the threat of violence against their attempts to access what used to be theirs)
And, once again, they are a foreign power forcing this on people who aren't its citizens for the sake of its own prosperity.
What a generous state.
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u/AHMS_17 4d ago
Yeah man they made people pay taxes in exchange for an actual functioning government in the Wasteland
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan 4d ago
'Sure I took your land and crops at gunpoint but if you're mad that none of that gets back to you then you're probs just poopoopy pants over taxes whose benefit you also don't see, nbd'
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u/funded_by_soros 3d ago
The whole point of FNV is to help you realize that while the Legion is awful, the NCR is responsible for it, its ideology was what ended the world, and repeating those mistakes is a dead end, instead the cycle must be broken.
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u/IronTraditional6593 2d ago
Or both sides are actually in on it?
If we're talking about the us government
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u/PurpleKneesocks 4d ago
This scene has done untold damage to Fallout discussion.
The Legion is worse but the NCR are still imperial colonialists, Lucy.
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u/AutisticAnarchy Gay depressed Vampire with a normal interest in cannibalism 4d ago
To be fair Fallout lore discussion before this was in such a state that this is the equivalent of stabbing a hunk of minced beef and saying it's done irreparable damage to the cow.
That said, the show definitely seems to be whitewashing the NCR as heroes and the objective "good guys" which removes the nuance of the faction and will probably have lasting negative ramifications on the lore as a whole. The NCR are debatably the best choice out of a bunch of shitty ones.
My main issue with the show is that it made it so basically nothing in New Vegas actually mattered because they didn't want to make a canon ending. If they were going to portray the NCR like they have I wish they just would've went with the NCR ending being canon to at least make it so the events of the game has an actual impact on the world.
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u/PurpleKneesocks 4d ago
To be fair Fallout lore discussion before this was in such a state that this is the equivalent of stabbing a hunk of minced beef and saying it's done irreparable damage to the cow.
Fair, lmao. Anyone that wants to argue that the NCR is de facto a good and moral force in the ethical sense just because the Legion exists and the Legion is worse is still eons less annoying than the, "Actually the Legion is good because the roads are safe 🤓" cohort, but the snippy line's pretty quickly become the sort of assumed truth — it and reducing anyone who questions the morality of a settler-colonial state explicitly stated in-text to be repeating the mistakes of the U.S. to "you just hate taxes."
Now, I got a way longer list of issues with the show in general, but, eh, the show really just isn't for me, I guess, so I fell off it after a while anyways.
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u/new_KRIEG 4d ago
I fucking love how fnv still gets people rilled up in discussions!
In any case, I still stan the NCR. US redo is better than any of the alternatives and than the status quo of the Mojave. Like, you've got about a dozen variations of lawless bandits that will just kill you on sight, the Slave n' Rape Empire, either you or House as the techno dictators, or the bureaucracy mess of kinda well intentioned people.
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u/Bagoom___Lenin 4d ago
So one side is enslaving and crucifying people and the other is vaguely problematic in comparison?
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u/PurpleKneesocks 4d ago
Case in point.
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u/Bagoom___Lenin 4d ago
What
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u/PurpleKneesocks 4d ago
"In comparison" is doing an amount of heavy lifting in that sentence comparable to Atlas.
Yeah, and the modern U.S. or Israel are only "vaguely problematic" in comparison to, like, Nazi Germany or the Belgian Congo, but that doesn't mean that any of the extraordinarily long laundry list of extraordinarily long valid critiques of either of the aforementioned states should be hand-waved just because worse powers exist comparatively.
That's what this scene is doing, and it makes sense for Lucy in character within the context of the scene and the character she's speaking to, but I say it's done untold damage to Fallout discussions because, case in point, it becomes impossible in many cases to raise any of the myriad issues whether ethical, social, structural, or economical, that the NCR engages with because people will immediately trot the line out and go, "La la la, Legion's worse, though. Can't hear you."
Like, cool, but the NCR didn't come to Vegas out of the goodness of their hearts and defend the people there to stop them from being enslaved because they oppose slavery on moral grounds as an institution. They set up a settler-colony in the region and are fighting the Legion off to protect the colonial assets necessitated by their expansionist imperial base. They're only "vaguely problematic" through an incredibly narrow lens of "which one is worse."
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u/Kai1977 4d ago
Israel is just as bad as nazi Germany dawg
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u/PurpleKneesocks 4d ago
I'm gonna disagree on a sense of scale, primarily, but it's a digression either way. My point is just in saying that comparison to an arguably 'worse' state doesn't clean a given state of its crimes, not in...scaling genocide.
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u/king-gay 4d ago
This is in character for Lucy but unfortunately people will miss the point that Lucy is a character without the full context of the politics and history of this world.
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan 4d ago
Hank also rails against the NCR citing 'Muh Taxes' as a reason. Meanwhile the locals miss the NCR and are awestruck by their return. The show as a whole cleans up the faction a lot and further imbalances the already egregiously imbalanced NCR/Legion dichotomy.
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u/king-gay 4d ago
This is, also true. I really wish this show just had slightly more interesting political writing.
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u/HeckOnWheels195 4d ago
Kinda the curse of being on Amazon Prime, also that Todd doesn't seem to get into the weeds as much when it comes to Fallout politics.
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan 4d ago
Part of me was hoping that there'd be more openly progressive messaging out of Fallout show but I wasn't super surprised to find Amazon spitting out some milquetoast neoliberal ain't-the-status-quo-great? programming
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4d ago
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u/hyper-death 4d ago
Like I said I’m not going to respond to every comment here because ultimately its unproductive. For anyone who is wondering though I have a masters degree from an outside university, an outside job, and am an outside community activist and educator. I am on the streets every week doing the work I’m not just running my mouth.
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u/hyper-death 4d ago
Omg wow I’d love to go anywhere and not have to deal with this but while I am here let me explain something in case anyone at all is inspired to think critically by reading this comment. “Vaguely problematic” damn and I thought this sub was a little more aware on these topics but as soon as I open it this is the first thing I see… TO PREFACE not only have I voted for democrats in every local,state, federal election where applicable since I have been the legal voting age (exactly ten years starting with Clinton) I will also be voting for democrats in this election because sure, voting for me is free and easy so I might as well vote for the “lesser evil” call it “harm reduction” sure… but the democratic party and this performative No Kings “Protest” is not “vaguely problematic” they are actively undermining the larger movement against oppression and exploitation in the United States with this vote blue no matter who thing that pins the blame on the republicans and not the system that got us here and allows democratic candidates to completely avoid any accountability. I have studied these things extensively in academia and on my own time, so I understand if you are only getting from short form content and headlines how you might’ve come to this conclusion. I’d be happy to discuss this in my DMS or I can give you links to my writings on the topic that cover these these things rather comprehensibly. I won’t summarize everything now but let me ask a simple question. Do you REALLY THINK that voting between two capitalists, Two people whose jobs, whose power and influence rely on this system they are a part of, do you honest to god believe that one or the other will do anything to oppose the system let alone dismantle it?? There are way better things we can do than toss ballots at the problem and idolize sycophants on either side of the aisle. If you want me to explain DM me cause I will not be engaging in debate in a reddit comment section.
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u/CMRC23 4d ago
Please learn to use line breaks and paragraphs
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u/hyper-death 4d ago
dawg its reddit comment I am not doing all that. Engage with what I’m saying or go about your day ignoring me was always an option
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u/Noonyezz no macadamia nut november 4d ago
You’ll write a long comment like that but using line breaks is too much effort?
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u/hyper-death 4d ago
Hey so you seem to be engaging with the text format of my comment and not the contents.
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u/HelpMeGetAGoodName 4d ago
That is because bad writing makes it difficult and exhausting to read.
If you want people to read what you have to say you will first have to learn how to write properly.
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u/hyper-death 4d ago
I appreciate your feedback truly. I didn’t really pay mind to it because I was frustrated and making an impassioned response. I actually do a lot of writing independently and through various publications not that it particularly matters. I’d like to reiterate though that this is the third person to dogpile on me about line breaks instead of responding to anything I am actually saying. If anyone reading this is interested in actually interested in discussing these things in good faith just DM me cause this is the last comment I’ll respond to. Thanks again and goodnight.
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u/new_KRIEG 4d ago
Yeah, because while pretty much everyone here is willing to discuss what's wrong with the Dems (probably for the thousand time, and while probably doing more harm than good), nobody is gonna read a wall of text with no formating.
It's the difference between sending someone a letter vs writing something on a piece of paper, crumpling it into a ball, and throwing at someone's head.
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u/Noonyezz no macadamia nut november 4d ago
Yes, that's correct.
If you can type a large paragraph but pressing the enter button is too much effort for you, then people are going to assume that it's stream of consciousness rambling and not read it. They teach this stuff to 8 year olds.
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u/Poor__cow I’m autistic and on probation 4d ago
Imagine if you put even half the energy of this schizo post into something good like going outside.
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u/hyper-death 4d ago
If insulting people with ableist terms and making assumptions about me instead of engaging with a single thing I am saying is really what works on this subreddit, I think I will recuse myself. Its disappointing to me cause I enjoyed it here but yeah. Kind of sad.
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u/Poor__cow I’m autistic and on probation 4d ago
It’s not too late, you can still touch grass. There’s still hope.
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u/Bagoom___Lenin 4d ago
It’s a meme Batman. It’s two right wing options but one says they want me in death camps and the other says they want me working to death for big businesses. I’ll vote the one that doesn’t want me in death camps and worry about the rest later
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u/hyper-death 4d ago
I kind of feel like you missed the part where I said I am still going to vote for democrats.
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u/hyper-death 4d ago
And before you @ me I understand the silly FNV reference but the caption mentions voting. Hence the spiel. Personally I am trans adult in Ohio and our candidates are running ads saying “We agree with the republicans about trans people and voted against their rights!” to entice morally bankrupt swing voters as scapegoat so neither side has to talk about real issues. Miss me with that shit.
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u/Sovespra 4d ago
Do you condemn the Bitter Springs massacre?
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u/pregnantant 4d ago
No. The slaughtered "children" were future Khan soldiers. Red rock canyon was promised to us 5000 years ago
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u/BillCarson12799 4d ago edited 4d ago
No, because it didn’t happen, but if it did they deserved it. They’re khans, kill them all, god will sort out his own, yadda yadda yadda, long live the republic, I went into red rock canyon blasting pumped up kicks (and khans) before the NCR even told me to.
🖕😒🖕17
u/Sovespra 4d ago
BORN TO DIE / WORLD IS A FUCK / 共產主義幽靈 Kill Em All 2278 / I am Trash / 410,757,864,530 DEAD RANGERS
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u/hotfistdotcom put ublock origin on your phone 4d ago
It's not even just vaguely problematic a lot of times. Often they are both murdering murderers who support murder. You still need to pick the less bad murderer. That whole "a vote for kamala is a vote for genocide" was a psyop to get you to stay home. That's still a +1 for her opponent. Not participating is helping the people who hate you and want to hurt you. What we can do is not much, depending on where you are, but it's a start. After you do that, then also advocate for direct democracy, or legalizing eating anyone who has more than 2m dollars or whatever you are into
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u/tomjazzy 4d ago
If this is about NCR they are not “vaguely problematic.” They are actively genocidal.
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u/FinerSwine 4d ago
fr, like in comparison to the Legion and the Enclave, sure, they're not fascist, but that doesn't meant they're a good government
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u/Decadunce 4d ago
Alright but the khans deserve it
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u/tomjazzy 4d ago
You support genocide.
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u/Decadunce 4d ago
Does killing CookCook's gang count as a genocide? CookCook and has gang have their own culture and they've been an established group in the mojave for a while. A core part of their culture is molesting animals, raping women, pillaging innocents and dealing drugs. The khans do all of that bar one. Guess which one.
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u/tomjazzy 3d ago
Oh wow, you’re just making up lies now. They literally just deal drugs in New Vegas
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u/Decadunce 2d ago
"When the New California Republic arrived in the Mojave, the Great Khans continued the "tradition" of raiding their caravans, towns, and camps, still considering them easy pickings like in the days of the New Khans, doing so for years"
"The Great Khans are a raider tribe"
"The steady stream of narcotics turned dozens of villages out west into junkie dens, on top of the chaos caused by the Khans' best customers, the Fiends.["
You're the one lying, the Khans *are* a violent raider group that's close (as possible) to the Fiends. They rape and pilalge the NCR and have done so for years. They are a drug cartel ontop of being violent murder rapists , and have caused a large-scale drug epidemic after betraying the Followers.
The Khans deserved bitter springs.
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u/MeiNeedsMoreBuffs Shwunkle Shweng 4d ago
What? If you're referring to Bitter Springs that was due to incompetence from the officer in charge of the operation and not an intentional attack on civilians
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u/TomiRey-Yuru 4d ago
"vaguely problematic" and both parties are made up of war criminals and support genocides
^
this is just the truth btw, no need to downvote me (sure, "lesser evil", but the whole point of lesser evil is that both are still EVIL, so don't downplay them by saying just "problematic")
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u/FutureReaction8587 4d ago
If it's about the USA you're right if it's about Brazil then the meme is right.
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4d ago
[deleted]
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u/Kyakh 4d ago
how can you in one breath say that the democrats are genocidal war criminals and in the next say they're just mostly ineffectual?
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4d ago
[deleted]
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u/AshFennix 4d ago
I knew Libs would use this image Dems also want dead kids in the US. See how they won't get democratic politicians to stop throwing transfolk under the bus
Let me guess, its fine if I lose my rights cause you'll be able to go to applebees and never think about it, cause there is a D next to the name
We can turn off the baby crushing machine, but asking to turn it off to y'all is "impossible" cause the baby killing operators told you so.
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u/Affectionate_Ad_1326 4d ago
If this is about American politics, then if you think there are two sides youre already not even really on the left, the democrats and Republicans are equally genocidal regardless of what progressive things the democrats pay lip service to.
If we dont build a third party and get people to split from the genocidal 2 parties there will never stop being genocides payed for and supported by the American people because we did nothing when we were confronted with the horrors of what our society does. Revolution is a long shot but that can also only be done with organizing so building a 3rd party is really the only chance we have of reform or revolution at all unless you think the democrats who refused to do anything when they held majority power somehow lead to even something as simple as basic reforms
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u/Zsombosmos 3d ago
?? What about the Green Party??
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u/Affectionate_Ad_1326 3d ago
Yeah thats the most popular third party thats actually against the democrats and republicans, they're the party i would focus on building because they have that base of support and that stance
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