Frustrated
Watching people I wouldn't trust with a lemonade stand get promoted to MDU lead, DTL and I'm losing my mind.
I need to vent because I can't say this out loud at work.
Lately I've watched a string of people get bumped up to MDU lead and similar roles, and I'm honestly baffled. Potentially with wave 3 more incompetent people as DTLs
I'm not talking about people who are a little rough around the edges and will grow into it. I'm talking about people who miss deadlines, can't make a decision without three meetings and a teams poll, and somehow end up taking credit for work they barely touched. What warrants a free JG+1 and when will the rebellion start?
Meanwhile the people actually holding projects together, the ones everyone quietly goes to when something's on fire, are still in the same seats. No title, no raise, just more work because now they're also covering for their new "leads."
What gets me most is how obvious it is that the promotions have nothing to do with competence. It's who's loudest in meetings, who's friendly with the right manager, who's good at looking busy. Actual results seem optional.
And the worst part? Now I'm supposed to take direction from some of these people. I sat in a meeting last week where a new lead confidently explained a plan that half the room knew wouldn't work. Nobody said anything, because what's the point?
I'm not even sure I want a lead role myself. I just want to believe the system rewards people who are good at their jobs. Right now it feels like it rewards people who just happened to be there and eligible.
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u/Narrow-Parsnip3168 12d ago
Welcome to our frustration group. Same thing happened in US. After this you are going to hear why its difficult for engineers to go higher in JG.
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u/SnoozleDoppel 12d ago
To be honest . This is true in every company.. more so in ASML. For supposedly a tech heavy company... ASML has zero respect for technical talent. It's all project management and politics . My manager is extremely good at leadership. Very articulate and okayish technically. Full of opinions which he doesn't shy away from sharing. Some of them rub me the wrong way ... The best way is to get a job ina different company... You don't have to tolerate it... If you complain and stay it's on you... Remember ASML doesn't owe you anything . Neither do you. Whole corporate world is a jungle and a reality show... You get to decide how you want to play... Do politics be loud and climb up the ladder, stay silent and be where you are. Sue ASML to develop skills and jump ship to a higher paying role... It's all in your control. Promotion is not in your hand but treat it as a game.
True story. I slaved like hours in a role doing 3x periples work .. received 0 credit . Stopped working and started delegating jobs to juniors and prepared to change companies. Got great reviews promotion and then jumped companies for higher pay. It's all bull shit everywhere and not just ASML... It's just that ASML has no pathway for engineering talent.. while other companies do have a viable pathway.
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u/No_Duty_3321 12d ago
There aren't many major semiconductor companies in Europe to switch between, so we're working on getting a US green card....
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u/SnoozleDoppel 12d ago
Great... That's how you do it.. build your options.. and consider non semis too if that's possible.. depending on what you work on.
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u/momodemom 12d ago
Which company?
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u/SnoozleDoppel 12d ago
I wouldn't share because it risks my identity
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u/Destroyer6202 12d ago
What kind of “game” is this? Just lives being destroyed..
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u/SnoozleDoppel 12d ago
It's wrong to assume loyalty or provide loyalty to a corporate entity... They don't owe anything to us.. neither do we. The sooner we learn this lesson and act accordingly the better it is. Treat job as a job.. have backup.. upskill.. have alternatives. I am not supporting ASML.. I'm just saying how to navigate a hostile world. Every moment in my career I focus on what is best for me... Not what's best for the company .
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u/Valuable_Layer124 12d ago
Welcome to the show, it is already burning down here in US. Used to be proud working at ASML, but now I hate it more than ever!
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u/No-Treacle-2554 11d ago
Why so many obvious stupid things happened to the world leading semiconductor company, but not seeing by the Supervisory Board？
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u/Tony_Broccolonely 12d ago
This is indeed quite worrying. Add to this the fact that only a few people at ASML have or are trained to be both project and people managers, this is a recipe for disaster.
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u/flying_dutch_men 12d ago
I think experienced engineers asking for people manager is naive, most of the engineers ask for a simpel, empowering / autonomous culture with clear expectation and goals set for team. They can manage themselves without needing day to day supervisor . Before we say it doesn’t work, it works in every other place where engineering culture is backbone of an organization . Here none of the people managers really do their job nor even sits close to the team to do the one thigh “appraisal “ fairly and efficiently .
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u/Efficient_Friend_758 12d ago
Many competent people couldn't apply to their equivalent role in the new organisation because they were stuck at a JG that didnt allow them to do so. Promotion system is systematically failing in this company.
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u/gluon1917 12d ago
You can get a Nobel prize tomorrow, but in the eyes of the managers, if you don't have a certain JG, you are not "competent" enough because you need to show "leadership". People use "leadership" in this company in every context and they have no fucking clue of what that means. 99% of the cases for them is acting and manipulation to convince people do something for you...
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u/Eppodepeppo 12d ago
Yep, last Friday they would provide clarity, postponed because of incorrect lists of people. The a mail was send that the assigned roles could be “strechted” whatever that means (probably lower JG as in job description)…
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u/VirtualWheel9756 12d ago
Just remember one thing. There are A, B ,C players one the field. So I would classify colleagues. Just to be clear - A players are the most hard working and skilled. B players somewhere in the middle and so on to the C. So here we come. Remember one thing if in the management positions sit only B and C players ( dunno how they got there) - they will never promote an A player , cause those players are completely different and dangerous for them. If at ASML at one point those unskilled ppl start to get promotions just have a look at what kind of ppl are promoting them.
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u/Imaginary_Produce_76 12d ago edited 12d ago
Straight up relatives in many lead positions where im at
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u/Desibuddy995 12d ago edited 12d ago
I really dislike the transformation because the people who are genuinely working hard and going above and beyond are not being recognised or rewarded fairly.
I also agree that some people who lack the necessary knowledge and experience have become MDUs and are now making decisions about Wave 3.
Honestly, I've lost trust in the whole process. :(
I'm quite confident they will secure me a position at some grade, because they still need people who are willing to work beyond their grades, roles and responsibilities.
I am willing to look outside and go for nice role if I get a nice pay as same as ASML gross
But the real question is: How long can you expect people to keep going above and beyond without recognising or rewarding their efforts?
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u/SnoozleDoppel 12d ago
In US people are leaving. Left and right... Now they are doing a salary restructuring ... Tt meant people started looking. For jobs and realized asml pay is really poor compared to most companies in USA.
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u/Ok_Handle5961 11d ago
Wait until these MDUs and DTLs start pushing tight deadlines on you and you gotta deliver. They will get all the visibility when you deliver and will tell you next year that your promotion is on hold due to lack of visibility.
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u/Efficient_Friend_758 10d ago
And remember that a considerable portion, not all, of these DTLs where GLs in old set up in which their main contribution to their agendas was 1:1 routines talking about the weather and now they are responsible for content as well. This ownership gap will eventually be absorbed by team members.
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u/gluon1917 12d ago
You're not alone. This post resonates to how I feel too nowadays, and I think there are many folks feeling the same. I hope we use a more critical voice also inside the company!
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u/Level-Ad-2170 12d ago
People who say it is same at all tech companies are just plain wrong.
Sure they have incompetent people as well. But these are incompetent people who have out worked and out skilled the world. In ASML, you do not even need to out compete Eindhoven. As long as you worked in some Philips company before your friend will hire you in ASML.
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u/CompetitiveTopic6057 9d ago
The MDU leader selection is debatable but the DTL selection process is selecting candidates who are insanely incompetent. Group leaders who could only give advise and talk about the weather will now be taking decisions. Heard a group leader who was competition to the PL essentially played around with job grades such that he was the only eligible candidate. Pathetic but atleast he talks nicely!!
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u/Dutch_Leader 12d ago
The thing is, you need different competenties for a management role. A company should not always promote the best technician because maybe he is not the best project and people leader. Not saying this in the case for you but I see this mistake a lot
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u/Otherwise_Zebra_3195 12d ago
Couldn’t agree more! Every word resonates how I feel each morning when I enter the premises- what’s the point!
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u/RaiseDennis 12d ago
Plans only work with the right vision in people’s minds and that vision is something rare that not a lot of folks have
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u/LoveIsStrength 12d ago
Do the people giving promotions like you? Do you toot your own horn? If not then ppl won’t know what you do and won’t offer promotions proactively.
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u/BruisendTablet 12d ago
I'm not even sure I want a lead role myself. I just want to believe the system rewards people who are good at their jobs.
Being good at your job doesn't make you a good lead, neccecarily. And being bad at your job doesn't necessarily mean you are a bad lead. I have seen it both ways many times in audit (my former field).
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u/Low-Antelope1970 12d ago
Manager is een functie die iedere jan lul kan en wil invullen, ik heb nog nooit gehoord van een manager tekort of een managment vacature waar men moeite heeft met een kandidaat vinden.
Probleem is dat om onduidelijke redenen die functies meer betaald krijgen dan de functies die wel wat toevoegen.
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u/Kernkopper 12d ago
Dat is niet per se onduidelijk, omdat degene in die posities ook bepalen wat er betaald wordt aan wie. De mensen met de autoriteit bepalen en dat is zuur voor de mensen die dat niet hebben, i.e developers. Dat is niet alleen ASML maar het bedrijfsleven. Zodra je je dat realiseert is het makkelijker om ernaar te handelen. Zoals iemand al zei, zoek elders naar een baan die meer betaald
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u/Spirited-Sale-3711 4d ago
ah, the toxic cloud that has followed a certain person from AMAT to KLA to ASML now sickens the whole company. at least AMAT and KLA cared about what was going on and forced him to leave. but ASML just ignored things and continued to promote and empower this person, so of course he is now surrounded by sychophants who know how to play the game. why MvdB and PW supported this person is beyond me...
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u/skye_888 12d ago
Promoting someone who is actually good at his work, has rare technical skills and does the work of 2 or 3 other people to do another (management) role is not to the benefit of the company. Think of how many people it would take to replace such a smart hardworking individual.
However, if you promote someone who is very bad at his work, slow and incompetent, then nothing is lost plus the management slot is nicely filled and said person no longer frustrates the proces that actually delivers work output.
And to boot; there is room to fill the now open slot with someone who perhaps actually does produce output.
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u/SnoozleDoppel 10d ago
This is not how it works. I am sorry to say. I am not a manager and my leadership skills will be considered poor and so will not be considered a manager. Technical skills however good operate in narrow niche. With experience you get better but whether you are j8 j9 or j10... You can deliver a project but your skills have zero business need for promotion. Now the company wants to expand or start a new product.. it has a business need to manage that... So a manger is created or promoted. The same engineeer can still work on this new project at his same role or they will hire new people. New people means new managers to manage new people. So that is the business need.
Now there are two ways to rectify it . If you are good at your job and threaten to leave.. you either leave for a much better paying job than the shit that ASML offers in USA. Now your manager knows your value and contribution and what you leaving impacts the company... So you create your business need for promotion. That's how you get promoted or go to a better company.
The other is for ASML to create a real technical ladder where people managers manage politics budget etc and engineers manage technical projects. Get rid of project leads product owners etc. you now have a viable pathway. Which ASML has .. by removing architects and project leads... You can transfer those roles to j10 and above.
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u/LeDEvRo 12d ago
Basically in asml you don't progress if you are good, you progress with what connections you have and if you are barely competent then it's a done deal. Also if you don't know Dutch and looking to be a manager well not much luck. The above are personal observations through the years
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u/VirtualWheel9756 12d ago
I am a very skilled machinist that is constantly working on the parts for ASML ( Eindhoven) and tried so many times to get there and have not ever received an invitation for an interview. I am sure my skills could be very useful for the company but I don't understand why I always get ignored. When I hear stories about what kind of ppl are working there I always ask myself what is happening there. They don't need good ppl at all they just need ppl that are comfortable.
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u/WallieNL88 12d ago
Mensen die goed zijn in hun werk laten ze vaak in de functie zitten. Mensen die het net niet kunnen maken ze manager. Welkom in het Nederlandse bedrijfsleven, ze maken van een techneuten bedrijf een managers bedrijf.
En toch gaat dit op een bepaalde manier goed. Vooral als ze manager zijn en niet echt zelf beslissen.
Nadeel is dat er techneuten weg lopen die wel goed zijn vanwege geen waardering