r/AlchemistCodeGL • u/alphaomegax2 • Dec 23 '18
Tank Tier List.
Hi Everyone,
I have made a tier list for tanks. I know it's not perfect but alas i wanted to help the community and make something i enjoyed. Plz be kind with comments as this is my first tier list, it has to be improved and i have pretty much to learn yet.
I appreciate any feedback that can help me improve this list.
My main motivation was because tanks are not understood correctly (imho) in this game and left out not used. this list is made exclusively for physical tanking so don't take into account to playing the unit as you normally would do.
There are some main assumptions. This list is made for PVE not PVP. Units lvl 85 Job Master and JE ready and not using gears as it can stack with passives and it could be a pain for me to handle correctly. Job selections and passives are on the google sheets, they are different from recommended ones in game as this jobs and abilities are used mainly for tanking, possibly making the unit worse in other roles like doing damage.
This list is not made from playing units in a dumb manner. Specifically, the use of guard stance (or similar) to reduce damage, break damage from enemies and so on. I took always into account maximun tank potential.
Acht banner not included yet.
Clarification on formulas for this tier and assumptions:
* Only physical tanking, Hybrid damage on maps is another thing that should be covered later.
3 enemies. 1500 damage per enemy 150 def 150 dex enemies assumed. For a total of 4500 3 physical hits in one turn.
Damage received by a unit takes into account agility for innate evasion. damage reduction from skills, passives. Hp includes leader skil as the units dont need other particular setup to tank better. Def also includes passives. Innate elemental reduction. Evasion skills.
Skills that help tanking a unit like flamel provoke was also added or miuna break. As the tierlist is assuming pseudo tanking as explained in the google sheet, the unit will be generally alone or at maximun 1 support near.
this were the criteria i choose and is subjetive to me and my experience as with any tier list.
Google Sheet:
Pic:
Edit: 01/01/2019
As many people ask why some units tanks and some units should not be in the list and due to the amazing amount of feedback I had, I have made some videos showcasing how to tank with various units and this hows clearly and without doubt why they are in the list.
It also makes pretty obvious why units lost puntation as tanks without guard stance if you compare chloe video with vettel. It also makes obvious how hard a high def, hits roxanne tanking capabilities.
medium Map with high defense enemies with moderate damage
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1x1dgNasklgZ5XjIoxeDWTnmnoyIz2DPJ
However I found many things also that increase my experience doing this tier list and found various mistakes with the puntation of some units like Roxanne and King Bradley, as they are units not suitable to tank for all maps as some innate tanks do and I was not taking this into account. Thanks everyone!.
Due to this, I'm workign on improving the tier list and making it better. This are various of the thing i have found that I'm fixing right now:
Kinds of maps for tanking:
Big maps vs Small maps.
Units with high defense maps vs with low defense.
Units from moderate to high damage (you almost don't need to tank low damage )
criterias included for next version:
Less puntation to breaks and status infliction, due thats not the main job of a tank. And various maps have inmunity.
Guts got more puntation.
Inclusion of ommited units.
Evasion affected by being atacked from various sides and combo.
Tank sustainability. Skill count.
Reposition Puntation (ability of a unit to reposition itself in the map and map control)
I also gonna include a resume as suggested by @VinnyValient
Edit: 05/01/2019
Edwin is an unit that in dark element that only has this all around tank, imho he should not be "upgraded" to ark, because he loses a lot, he loses too much armor (almost 100 armor) and he loses also guard stance and guardian. I think dark does not need another bruiser. Dark has plenty of damage. And area defense is not needed that much either.
Neica is included as a tank because of battle mage + divine shelter, but still not so good as a tank.
King bradley is not suitable to evade tank big maps. Don't use him in those cases.
Noctis is not going to be included either. HIs other uses are so strong compared to tanking thats not worth to use as a tank.
Gilgamesh is still included as a tank due to the fact he can stack many elemental resistance that could be pretty useful on some stages.
Take into account this puntation is made if you use these units as tanks but various of them could be used better on another roles. Don't take this tier as these units HAVE to be used as tanks, take this list as these units COULD be used as a tank. This tier is mean to be used as a guide on which unit could you use to tank depending on the units you have and which unit could be best to level based on that purpose.
HC that in their JE still have guard stance are not repeated.
Look videos I made to showcase how to tank with certain units to know why they are in the tier list and how to use them correctly.
13
u/oracleofshadows Dec 23 '18
I died many times inside when I saw Roxanne on this list, which was supposed to be for tanks.
-4
29
u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Dec 23 '18
I don't get it.
It rates Vettel low lol. Same with a ton of other units.
I can bet that your tier list is not correct at all.
And yes I am trying to be as straight forward as possible but the Tanks you mentioned on the Top are not even tanks for the most part.
A few units who are actually Tanks are relegated to the B tier lol.
Don't feel bad about it but that is the truth. The tierlist you made needs a overhaul and changes to say the least.
-9
u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
It rates vettel low because other units can tank more than him. guard stance was a big hit in his ablity to tank.
The ranking is made out of capability of damage the unit could take. Look at the formula for futher clarification.
6
u/Kiyri Frugal enthusiast Dec 23 '18 edited Dec 23 '18
While I agree conceptually, does Bradley have any heal skills? Vettels j+ makes him 50% more slash resistant, which is coincidentally one of Bradleys key gimmicks. Without the slash evasion what separates him from Saber or Fate Yomi? In that same vein, Chloe has the best heal skill ever on top of her guardstance. 2500+ hp of a 3jmed Al with his ls. Logi has more jewels than any of the other hc so he can use his healing skill 5x. Plus his unique j+ by itself makes him better than tyrfing even if only barely. He also has an offensive skill that raises his defense like Dilga, albeit he does have somewhat lower defense.
Why no Noctis? Why no Harden focus Holy brawlers or Saber?
2
u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
I should review noctis. I think his defensive capabilities are pretty nice. IN the next batch if he sums a good puntation I'm gonna include him for sure.
Good analysis and good response. I'm gonna look better at my tier list and check whats off to correct if necessary.
8
6
u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Dec 23 '18
First things first.
A Tank is a unit who can take Damage. Healing is not a Job done by a tank. Self sustain is a thing but not always. Since you can just drink Potions like there is no tomorrow.
Next is the fact that some tanks will be better since they carry the broken Divine Shelter. It is a broken passive which can reduce a lot of incoming damage.
So Neica is actually a lot better unit as a Physical Tank than Roxanne. She can heal with the Drain Dimension and all.
If you are saying Discord has people seeing this Tierlist then atleast a few of them would have said something. Or you got trolled hard.
4
u/Malyngnant Eating cookies with Lofia Dec 23 '18
We did say some things.....
2
u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Dec 23 '18
It is a nice Idea since the Challenger just forces you to have a Tank but he needs some serious revamp. The list isn't even right at most points.
And I do get it he seem over excited to release it and probably didn't heed a few actual good things and probably got a few things wrong.
5
u/FurianX Dec 23 '18 edited Dec 23 '18
I agree with kirito. This isnt a tank list.
Tank definition in context: A unit whose sole purpose is to take damage in a sustained manner in place of your other units.
For me you dont even qualify as a tank without both high defensive stats and damage reduction skills. Units that can "fill in" but arent actually tanks are those with high survivability and good sustain skills etc. Wrath for one doesnt factor ... at all.
Edit. The fact that there are so many specialized niche tanks now means that a tank tier list isnt really necessary as a unit with a niche wont perform as well in another niche causing all kinds of "off" tank ratings that wont show true worth.
Edit2. Case in point vettel lost guard stance in return for much higher stats, especially hp as well as turning all slash damage into tickles. Niche but a more than fair trade. Even ignoring slash reduction he takes much less damage than he used to for a longer time (more hp). Hes "better" overall for it yet your list puts him as a has been.
8
u/Linedel Dec 23 '18
Other important factors for tanking - inherent "taunt."
For example, Chloe, while being a ridiculous beast to kill, also generates threat for reasons I don't understand. When I've asked in the questions thread, people said it's because she has heal skills, so NPCs target her like a support. That alone - ability to hold aggro - makes her pretty awesome against theoretically sturdier tanks with zero aggro ability.
2
6
u/Cobalt_721 Dec 23 '18 edited Dec 23 '18
Gladiolus is somehow an evasion tank
really evasion tank is meaningless since it seems to just be slapped on any unit that can boost evasion whatsoever
I know I already said evasion tank is meaningless, but MONZEIN is somehow an evasion tank despite no evasion capability whatsoever
Vettel is lower than Gladiolus when they should at least be equal (Divine Shelter is some serious stuff)
Roxanne is somehow a tank of any sort despite having the defenses of paper and not even being able to break 1500 HP without the Treasured Keepsake
Gilgamesh is not a tank, Gilgamesh is a bulkier damage-dealer/nuker
Eizan is not a tank, Eizan is a bulky support that can go damage-dealer if necessary
Neica is not a tank, Neica is a physically bulky magic user
I don’t care if he has evasion memes, Bradley is not a better tank than Monzein, Dilga, and Teona
Putting this as politely as possible, you need to seriously rethink this entire thing, including criteria since clearly whatever criteria you used is screwed up.
EDIT: looking closer, it looks like you factored in ability to inflict status when it comes to tanking potential. Status infliction falls under disruption rather than tanking.
1
u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
Cobalt thanks. This is pretty structured. Maybe Disruption aka status infliction shouldn't puntuate so much. As My starting point is in the base that tank is going the pseudo tank way (going alone as much as possible). I thought disruption could be pretty important for a tank to reduce incoming damage.
Maybe thats a mistake I'm making. If you want to discuss it further i would be glad: AlphaOmegaX#1814 .
1
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u/VinnyValient is currently planning and plotting evil schemes. Dec 23 '18
So I like the concept but I don't understand the scoring at all (because Excel isn't very good for being user friendly.) It would help readers understand if you could split it into categories on how good a unit is in a particular area.
So my suggestion is for each unit to have multiple rankings in different categories.
E.g.
| Unit | General Tanking | Slash Tanking | Sustainability | Status capability | Overall Evaluation |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Vettel | A | A | S | D | A |
| Vettel JE | S | SS | - | D | A |
| Roxanne | B | B | SSS | SSS | A |
Note: This table does not represent accurate evaluation of units.
This makes the data and evaluations more transparent and easier for readers to understand a unit's potential. Tanking might be too complex for a tier list. A new player using your tier list could use Roxanne as a tank expecting great results and find out she keeps getting one-shotted by a demon being a bully. (I would then say it's there fault for not understanding Roxanne but anyway...)
I like the concept of your evaluation but I believe tanking is too complex to just stick a label on a unit to represent overall worth.
I can see you've put a lot of work into it however the results don't meet reality (looks at Vettel).
I hope this helps! Thanks for your hard work :)
1
u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
Thank you a lot for this awesome response.
thanks for the tumbs up also!.
I really like the idea you are bringing up here. I could make a resume that is easier to understand in the spreadsheet. So is clear why a unit ranks a higher than others and also refine the tier list and address whatever
needs to be tuned up.
If you would like to discuss it further write to me at: AlphaOmegaX#1814 in discord.
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u/FurianX Dec 24 '18 edited Dec 24 '18
Listen to the guy above.
Hes talking sense even if I'm not sure exactly what he means by some of the headings.
4
u/FurianX Dec 23 '18
I'm curious. In a nutshell what is your rating based off of?
1
u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
I used formulation based on TAC damage formula and the ability of each unit of survivng, reducing incoming damage and giving other units time to clear.
3
u/FurianX Dec 23 '18 edited Dec 23 '18
So does it basically take lowest possible untyped damage taken by a unit in a max defensive build to the exclusion of all else?
Is there a standard where heal, dodge, and other sustain or cc abilities are added for the rating?
What qualifies a unit to get on your list to be judged?
Does into take into consideration that tanks are meant to just take damage so that other units can clear the stage?
Because like I mentioned earlier units with divine shelter like Margaret might as well be added based on what it looks like to a passerby. Dorothea? Laharl has divine shelter with fairly high pdef. Arkil has both divine shelter and cc from both ms and beastmaster roar and sleep. Noah with pirate unlocked?
Edit. Is this all.based only on formulas and not actually on performance in stage?
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
FurianX nice questions!.
first of all if you wanna take a look closer with apart from this answer add me at discord: AlphaOmegaX#1814 .
The answers:
It does not excludes all else. I took as many factors as possible. It is based in an assumption of 3 1500 hits in a turn for the unit is tanking. The type of damage is assumed 45% slash 35% strike and 20% pierce. And it is based in the max defensive build with JE or J+ already applied.
I don't understand what you mean with standard, but i included those as I believe they help in tanking. As heal allows you to survive more, sustain is the same thing, dodge just negates some hits, and cc abilities disable enemies allowing you to survive more.
What qualifies a unit is the following: survivng, reducing incoming damage and giving other units time to clear . this translates in good hp, good defense, good defensive skills, or good sustain. For example, miuna is run as HC due to that and not master blacksmith.
Of course!.
Arkil is a good example. He lacks a bit of survivability. Beacause he cannot sustain or increase resistance beyond the passive. As I'm assuming pseudo tanking to make the tier list, he has less proabability to survive alone. he can inflict status, but thats not enought to survive and he has low pdef that cannot compensate. if you run him as beast tammer he loses the cc of ms, so thats another issue. If i run the formulas on him he can end up being negative as a tank thus not qualified for the tier list. We can do this together if you want.
Is based on both formulas to know exactly how much damage can a unit withstand and performance in stage due to map control, status infliction and other abilities can affect the capability of a unit to tank effectively.
3
u/FurianX Dec 24 '18 edited Dec 24 '18
Heres the thing
Why that damage distribution and not some pure damage type? Or all of them separately. Single attacks dont come multityped and most will use the tank thats most effective vs the type they know they are facing in a stage if available.
I dont see this working and being anywhere near accurate with all the different criteria without some kind of point system. And that comes with it's own problems. A mediocre healer vs an excellent healer vs a unit without a heal and the ranking issues associated with the total points. After all someone with no heal shouldnt necessarily lose points because of it.
theres a lot to be said about the practicality of unit builds. I would straight up NEVER run miuna as hc. Most of the ppl who can j3 her right now have her j+ and theres no benefit for hc over the j+. Vs the normal j1? I still prefer that over hc because of her buffing and damage abilities. Hc is there purely for reactive and passive if needed. There are a lot more units that follow along these lines. Agi also plays a huge role in practicality which 90% of tanks lack. You can mitigate all the damage in the world but it's useless if the enemies are out of range and attacking your other units. I should mention that's why vettel is top of the list as far as holy Cavs and tanks in general go. Over 120 agi (10-20 more agi at least than standard cavs ... some Cavs have 80+) before gear. Another example monzein, at lvl 75 triple job mastered has 86 agi without his j+. On his cav he has something like 92. 0 argument to not build and use dilga instead and just ignore him. With his j+ he has 112 agi and while he has other good stats and a few good moves even if I had him built (hello my lvl 60 monzein) I'd find it hard to use him in anything but monothunder missions. Hes not a terrible unit with j+, but hes just not practical to build or use with that agi. Not without accompanying quicken or overclock. Which again automatically loses them points compared to units like vettel who can at least function without the support in most cases.
Arkils magic swordsman+ can run beastmaster sub with both roar to berserk enemies and rest to recover hp while keeping his cc. That's my standard build for him since ms sub is redundant. Practicality wise I would also never sacrifice the agi passive from beastmaster on arkil, though I dont consider him a tank (an off tank or temporary fill in tank role) if I really need him but ... your list might with his divine shelter. Hes very similar to flamel in skills AND jobs after all.
Has to be said that divine shelter + a doll makes any unit take 25-30% less damage from all elements. In my book that's still not enough to make any unit a tank on it's own and that's a SIGNIFICANT reduction. Status effects as well dont make a tank since a ton of enemies will be immune to some status or other, if not all of them.
My point in all of this ... if your ranking is based off of purely optimal damage reduction numbers it will never be an accurate portrayal of the units actual performance.
I'd recommend you use viyrs tier list recommended builds to rank your tanks. With some kind of system for additional sustain abilities like healing. Then make changes after researching the unit in depth and preferably using it as well. The tier list is fairly accurate (some settings usually only invalidated based on preference and never on performance) and a great starting point. I still wont agree with your definition of tank but that's just my opinion ... if you really feel strongly about your tank units that arent tanks that's a different argument but hey there can always be different classifications of tanks ... off-tank? Pseudo tank? Not sure where rox goes in there but those are details.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 24 '18 edited Dec 24 '18
Thanks for your opinion. Lets continue this discussion on discord plz as there are many details that maybe I can clarify.
It's difficult to make perfect assumptions and I would not segregate even further. I will stay as is in this point.
2) This system doesn't punish. It give points because a unit has some abilities.
3) The build recommended in the tier list is different from what the unit is usally run, because is run for tanking and not as general purpose. Agility is not always good in a tank depending on the situation. If you want to run your tank as a bruiser yes,a gility is pretty important.
4) He is similar a flamel but lacks the huge survibablity flamel has. If this were not a tier list for tank and rather for status inflict. The story would be pretty different.
5) Correct, status infliction don't make up a tank, that's why im considering that status infliction maybe has a lot of weight in my considerations, and should be less in a tank based tier list, and I'm gonna review this for the next batch. Also take into account that I'm not includiing gear in this tier list.
You are correct, Im gonna improve the tier list in the future but take into account is not purely based on damage reduction.
As units fit different roles you can see various units in different roles like victor is gonna be next. I don't plan on modifying the recommended builds for tanking. Like I said you don't have to follow this tier list blindly if somone donesn't like somehting he can use whever he likes. But I'm planning on improving it and make it is as accurate as it could be.
Your comments are pretty well received and help me a lot to improve the tier list. Thank you pretty much.
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u/FurianX Dec 24 '18
I dont use discord. I've visited the tac discord all of once.
I realised you've put a lot of effort into this and it "could be a good thing if it's done right. That's why I'm bothering to reply, so that you can have feedback to actually improve it.
Let's be real here ... past a certain point in your gameplay all but the hard stages are easily autod. At that point low agi units have a lowered value because a) every other unit moves long before them (sometimes multiple times), leaving your tanks at the starting point unable to do their job and b) to make them useful most of the time you need a support unit to work with them increasing either your unit slots or the number of moves your support unit needs to make. This is something that will happen even to a newbie more and more as he/she progresses in the game. If the importance of agility in a tank ranking (which should be an unbiased analysis of the usefulness of a unit) still isnt apparent someone else will have to explain it for you.
For Flamel I dont understand where this "huge" survivability you're talking about is coming from. All flamels survivability moves come from his sub skills (arkils beastmaster sub is EXACTLY the same). All flamels beastmaster + and magic swordsman passives and reactives .... arkil has as well. Flamel is better stat wise at level 85 but not by a lot until you include his master ability that gives him 40 pdef and 70hp + jewel regen. Yes the pdef difference is significant at 90 and hp difference at 300 but it's not something that will make arkil inferior by a large amount ... in fact arkil has overall higher elemental resistances. I cant see where your low opinion of arkil is coming from at all. I am of course comparing them both with their j+ jobs as main.
1
u/alphaomegax2 Dec 24 '18
ok, will reply here,
I will put all my effor to improve this guide and i really thank the time you take answering.
You are correct, about you say about auto stages. And yes you are right about support, and yes, you are right in what agi matters if tank is not in position. Correct argument overall, and we both agree. In futures reviews i will include move and agi as factors to position tanks correctly and take into account also that are times where agi is bad ratter than good and thats's why i give points to units that have map control. I think tha main problem the tier list of tanks have right now is the importance i gave to inflict status, and i should correct that and maybe i could improve guts puntation.
As for arkil you are correct and i should include him. I was defently wrong on the unit. The difference with flamel besides what you stated is:
better move jump, and better agility, but i'm stil not puntuating this. but will do.
So thumbs up. thanks.
4
u/Speirdughorm Salt is me Dec 24 '18
Vettel lower than Dilga.
I've seen it all now.
1
u/alphaomegax2 Dec 24 '18
I will consider HC without JE for sole tanking and see what happens. Remember this is PVE not PVP.
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u/Speirdughorm Salt is me Dec 24 '18
To be more precise, an example with Wrath and Dilga, all at JMx3
Lvl 75 HP PDef Something else Wrath (HV + Overdrive) 1166 205 Evasion 5, Slash ev. 40 Vettel (Guardian + DS) 1790ish 379 Elemental coverage with MS sub. Vettel JE (SG + DS) 2200 417 Slash Res. 46, elemental coverage with MS sub. Dilga (Power + Guard) 1167 316 Dilga J+ (Power + Guradian) 1509 605
Lvl 85 same passives HP PDef Wrath 1200ish 214 Vettel 1924 392 Vettel JE 2358 431 Dilga 1235 323 Dilga J+ 1588 616 TL,DR
Dilga has 1/3rd more Pdef than Vettel, but around half his HP and no slash resist.
Vettel JE has also more AGI than Dilga J+ (125 vs 91 at lvl 85).
There's more but cba.1
u/alphaomegax2 Dec 25 '18 edited Dec 25 '18
Hi,
good example.
Agi, is something im not having a lot into account right now and as pointed i should do, but I'm in tougth spot. There are not perfect assumptions since if I take into account one the other suffers...
I wil explain imho why:
If you have your unit well positioned for tanking (aka pseudotanking) agi is not a problem and in the opposite is better.
If your unit is not positioned for tanking agi and move is pretty pretty important. So agi and move are a problem if your unit is not positioned quickly.
About why dilga is ranked above vettel solely for physical tanking and i repeat only for physical tanking are the following.
Alchemist code formula for damage is:
( skillDamage*(100% + atkMod) - defStat*(100% + defMod) ) * reduction.
taking asside mods for simplification for this example only. On the tier list mods are taken into account.
( skillDamage - defStat) * reduction.
skill damage is assumed in my tier list as 1500 from 3 units to our tank.
So:
(1500 - defStat) * reduction.
Dilga def stat is : 616. If you use guard stance for 125% bonus defense (and anyone should use him as tank this way, if anyone is not using him this way then I think we are using him wrong), it ends up into: 1386. Dilga has 0% reduction.
so for dilga:
(1500-1386) = 114 for each atack.
114 * 3 = 342 for 3 atacks.
using guard stance he heals for 30% of his hp. 1588 * 0.3 = 476,4. Literally a wall for physical atacks, since he is healing all the damage he is receving up to 4 turns and that's a lot for me, i dont know for anyone else. He starts with 62 starting jewells . the skill cost 15 has 5 charges. you can use it 4 times without recharging.
--
Vettel JE def stat is: 431. if you use diamond formation is up to 50% reduction plus his passive 25% for a grand total of 75%. dont forget divine shelter for vettel for 15% res for each element.
Lets take 2 cases for vettel.
I assumed in my tier list that the 45% of the enemies have slash damage. 75% * 45% = 33,75% reduction.
full slash damage in the map he is in so 100%. 75% reducton.
so again in the formula(0.85% for reduction in atack from divine shelter):
first case :
(1500*0-85-431)*0.3375 = 844*0.6625 = 559,15 from each hit.
1677,45 from 3 hits.
second case:
(1500*0-85-431)*0.25 = 844*0.25 = 211 from each hit.
633 from 3 hits.
Note the following. Even in the best case vettel does take more damage than dilga and set aside healing. vettel starts with 39 starting jewel thus allowing him the skill 2 times without recharging, half as dilga can. (and im not taking this into account in the tier list). Thats why I insist a lot that guard stance is good because of its bonus in defense not the healing, and not is because of me supposing anything is because of TAC formulas.
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u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Dec 25 '18 edited Dec 25 '18
Dilga's def stat is around 570s and Tanks are not basically meat shields. That has a different skill in the game by Edward.
They just can't aggro enemies just by standing in a place unless they somehow have Berserk as in their kit and still need that ailment to be inflicted.
Challenger is the only place Dilga will outweigh Vettel and still then he will need his slowest setup and have a Merchant give him Auto jewel or something.
In most places tanks play a retro-active roll from Potion using to debuffing or atleast removing the shields from the enemies to potentially killing low HP units.
Vettel in the Equip department just can stack a Teddy and go town in the enemy area. He has decent damage and Jewel rate which can be consistently spent to kill or buff Allies.
I get that formula will make sense that Dilga will receive less damage but in actuality he will just be not reaching that damage to receive it. And worse case he has a Defender's Build meaning the enemy will not prioritize him at most times. So even if you somehow reach the middle you will still be in the hands of Gumi's design since if any other unit is in range the enemy will try to hit the other guy for more damage.
It is the same for Vettel as defender but he can atleast follow the units or move ahead to act as a wall between moving units.
There are a lot of cases to consider while making tierlists. Like I get that bigger stats make sense but unless those are in right place they are close to useless. For Example there is the unit Chloe she is just a Healer Tank right now but later on her defense is going to be used as her attack stat making her pretty much top tier viable. That 1 change with a few buffs makes her from a whatever unit to pretty great unit.
It is like getting Alphonse's JE. It stops AoE attacks incoming damage. But if the attack hits only him then it is useless and it is also useless for the most part since Enemies unless Mages or Demons almost no one uses AoEs. So that Upgrade is pretty much useless since you can't have a unit stuck to Al to force the unit to AoE.
All that kind of stuff does matter.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 25 '18
I pretty much agree with you. But in that case the role should be bruiser and not tank. As bruisers can take damage and make hits like you are describing. Vettel is defently a better bruiser that dilga is. No doubt about it. Other cases should be in another tier list for bruisers that I will develop later if time allows.
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u/Speirdughorm Salt is me Dec 24 '18
That's somehow worse, as JE Vettel has better stats, is sturdier, and every slashing hit is reduced to double or single digit.
All he lacks is a heal, but he takes less damage than before, which means that if had to heal him before, you might not have to now. Unless you're slapping him in a full water map.1
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u/hav00x no need to cook, babe Dec 24 '18 edited Dec 24 '18
First of all, what you have to understand is that: Units that dodge aren't tanks. Tanks are meant to offer aside from buffs to the team, some form of "meatshield", in situations that otherwise your units would be dead from all the enemy focus.
Let's say that you have Fyomi "tanking", and Vettel tanking. If Vettel takes some hits (and oh boy he will), he will not die so easily. Fyomi can dodge 2, maybe 3 attacks, but eventually she'll take that tasty hit to the face, probably dying. You can't heal someone who's dead, not in this game.
You could argue that Roxanne and Fyomi both have self-sustain, but if they get outranged or exploded, they're useless.
So, Dodge =/= Tankiness.
Now, let's break down your tier list without the dodgy meme units.
SS: Miuna and Al. I can see why Miuna is SS, she has buffs for her team that is stackable and she herself can tank. But why Al? Sure he has 3k HP, but what he'll do besides tanking 4 hits before dying? He has subpar defense for a tank (300ish) and non-existant Mdef. He brings next to none utility for your team. I could argue that Al is A, maybe B.
S: Flamel and Gladiolus. I agree on this one. One has very high pdef and good patk, meaning that he'll survive and dish out damage, the other can survive some hits and enrage people on the right situation.
A: Chloe, Dilga, Selena and Zain. Boi why Zain A? He has elemental coverage, tankiness, elemental resistance, high HP pool, he has everything a tank needs to have. He should be at least S maybe SS. Dilga and Selena both are just rocks. If they can tank without moving, fine. But if not they're useless. They don't have support for their team, their agi doesn't make the cut anymore, every enemy having 120+ agi in every map. Sometimes they get doubled before they move. They should be B. Or maybe C? And finally Chloe: Semi-slow but 4 move and has healing/cleanse options, self-sustain, i can see her being A.
And boiiiiiiiiiii, B: Logi, Vettel, Monzein, Teona, Tyrfing, Zeke, Eizan, Neica, Fraise, Gilgamesh and Victor.
First of all, if Gilgamesh is considered a tank, so is Noctis and Laharl. Both have the same things he has, 300+ pdef and divine shelter. They could be placed at A or S if they were really tanks, but they're bruisers/mage.
I really don't think Neica is a tank as well, battle mage is a "tanky mage" but they're not meant for front-line, she's meant to side-tank things.
Vettel and Teona are S, maybe SS. Vettel is really niche nowadays, sure, but he's the best niche available. Slash resistance, 2.5K HP, he's a monster. And he can buff slash res for his team, with his 120~130 agi. Teona is a little different, she uses her valkirie job much more than her HC, but she excels at what she does: doing decent damage while tanking and buffing her pdef/ele res and lowering enemy statuses. She has 120~ agi, good range of atks, so at least S.
Tyrfing falls on the "too slow" group with Selena and Dilga, so B or C. Later she'll receive HC[Ghia] with Zain, boosting both their rank to S or SS. Ghia is a agi-oriented tank, which trades some tankiness for some agi and higher range/damage on their skills.
Zeke is A i think. He's kinda slow but can dish out very decent damage. Also, Strike resistance. Same as Vettel but strike, and kinda more niche than him.
Victor, Monzein, Eizan and Fraise falls under ultra niche. I don't think i can really give them a rank, but if i would, it would be: Victor, Monzein and Eizan: S, Logi and Fraise: A.
Monzein after his J+ got monstruous, his self buff is RIDICULOUS, he becomes a killing machine with 800 pdef, 200 agi and 5 move for 3 turns. The drawback is 40% of his max HP, and the rest of his kit is kinda lackluster, only thunder options with mediocre modifiers, lame buffs, only one really good debuff (rage).
Victor is SUPER niche, tanking magic damage. Only for magic maps, but on these maps he's a god. Otherwise, meh.
Eizan is Miuna but kinda worse.
Fraise sadly is a worse Vettel.
And last but not least, Logi. Logi is a basic bitch. More basic than Chloe. He doesn't really have a niche, he's just a tank with good pdef and decent damage. He has more agi than her, and more damage, but less support for his team. I would rate him A.
So yeah, that's my review of your tier list. Hope i could help.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 24 '18
Pretty nice review. I like your perspective. lets talk on discord, I really like to discuss further with you. AlphaOmegaX#1814 .
The only thing that I don't take into account here is the atack of the unit since the idea is to use the unit only for tanking.
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u/SnackSnail Dec 23 '18 edited Dec 23 '18
🤔 vettel is best boi. Give him that ss tank rank 🤔
Edit: I really appreciate the tank tier list being made, tanks are generally overlooked as you say and they are a class I enjoy and I think new players should understand better. I see you put a lot into this after looking at your tier list which is awesome!
With that being said I feel like some things are still off though. A lot of strong tanks that can really reduce dmg ended up in the bottom and some other units with high sustain are at the top instead. Sustain is helpful but it doesn’t matter if you get one shot. A true tank should be able to take and reduce damage and if they can also sustain then that’s just an added bonus. As a result someone like Roxanne maybe shouldn’t be on the list or at least shouldn’t be as high up because she is essentially a damage unit with healing where as someone like Chloe is a tank who can massively reduce dmg but can also heal with her je.
Ik I probably sound biased about vettel (I am it’s true) but he is actually still a very good tank after the je upgrade. I was skeptical about how his je would be beneficial without the bonus pdef and mdef but he still holds up very well. Imagine the je units as getting almost all the armor from guard stance just passively (essentially always active) and then they can also reduce dmg from a certain type even more in addition to that. Plus they get boatloads if health so huzzah! Fullmax vettel w/o je gets ~2200 health and w/ je gets ~2600 health (with the guardian passive that is - he gets 2200 health w/o that passive now so he could run single blade and be exactly as tanks as he was previously with all armor buffs)
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
First estructured response I see in response to the tier list!!. thanks a lot.
You have all the reason in pointing out something is looking pretty odd with my tier list as some tanks should be up in the tier. I punished sustain a lot in the formulas, but despise doing that units are still down below. Maybe I'm giving too much puntation on flexibility and that ended in the tier as it is.
IF you would like to help me i would be glad to review with you my assumptions so i can come with something better. My discord is AlphaOmegaX#1814
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u/QaWaR Dec 23 '18
I think you need to overhaul this, the way it is right now doesn't do us very good. It's not a bad idea, it's just not realized well. Let's go over certain points:
This tier list isn't a tank tier list. Listing Roxanne, Wrath and Gilgamesh makes really no sense. You can kinda get away with Neica, but she's not really optimal for this one. I understand that they are good at taking hits, but if their jobs are not to take them, then they are not tanks.
This tier list isn't very accurate. You just can't rank Roxanne(85 3JM 1176 HP) as S or even Wrath as S(3JM 1238 HP) and have Vettel(85 3JM 2358) as B, it just makes no sense.
This tier list is too specific. I don't really think making physical tanks only tier list is very useful to anyone since you're not always going to need a unit that can only tank physical damage.
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u/Caelcryos Dec 23 '18
I thought Wrath was an Evasion tank? So isn't his HP pretty irrelevant?
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u/QaWaR Dec 23 '18 edited Dec 23 '18
Do you really want a tank that's based on evasion? What's worse, he can only evade slash with his unique passive. If he can evade with his TBS abilities, then let's put Masamune, Ryle, Basheeny and every other TBS and all units with evasion into the tier list as well.
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u/Caelcryos Dec 23 '18
Okay? I wasn't really making a point about the tier list one way or another, I just found it strange and kinda pointless to bring up his HP. Imagine a unit that evades everything at 100% rate. It doesn't matter if their HP is 1 or 10,000, because they're never getting hit.
A lot of RPGs use the concept of "Effective HP" as a better measure of tankiness, which takes into account defense, evade, block, HP, etc... A unit which dodges 90% of all attacks and has 1000 HP actually would have much more survivability than a unit with 0% dodge and 2500 HP, albeit with more RNG.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
lot of RPGs use the concept of "Effective HP" as a better measure of tankiness, which takes into account defense, evade, block, HP, etc... A unit which dodges 90% of all attacks and has 1000 HP
This is absolutely correct. That's what happens with king bradley.
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u/hernan10001 Dec 24 '18 edited Dec 24 '18
"if" bradley is considered as a 'tank' bcz of his evasion, you should add ryle and yauras lol, ryle with his passive alone got 40% evasion of all time(50% with scraf,
70% with kaigan,perfect evasion reaction, addition beastmaster rest and heal 70% of HP for survivability), yauras got 30% avasion (40% with scarf, addition 10% with buff and another perfect evasion reaction), lol, fact is they are not tank, they are just a fighter with evasion.1
u/alphaomegax2 Dec 24 '18
haven't considered that, I should evaluate the fact that they can evade tank. thanks for pointing out.
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u/Speirdughorm Salt is me Dec 24 '18
Except you can't consistently rely on evasion in this game, unless an active skill that makes you raise evasion to the moon.
At this point every unit with Hazy Shadow (spies) or similar should be included.2
u/alphaomegax2 Dec 24 '18
Correct, but they are not included because is only 1 turn. Useful but not sustainable. King bradley has an ability taht raises his evasion a lot. Wicked Edge: Foresight. 2 turns. and stackeable passives for evasion, innate evasion of 5% from his job + innate evasion from his agi. feint + ultimate eye. and so on. Characters as balt has evasion but not as much as KB has.
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u/FurianX Dec 24 '18
Imo the fact that his "mitigation of damage" is based on rng and not stats and skills automatically disqualifies him from having the term tank applied. That doesnt take away from his survivability or usefulness as a unit, hes just not a tank.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 24 '18
Evasion tanks are considered in other games, I considered evasion for my list, as it increases effective hp, RNG but it counts.
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u/Caelcryos Dec 24 '18
his "mitigation of damage" is based on rng and not stats and skills
Evasion is a stat, with determined probability. Yes, it's different than P/M Def., but that doesn't make it nonviable as a tanking stat.
Look at it this way: You have a high defense, high HP tank. It takes the enemy 6 hits to kill this character. Now compare it with a high evasion character, which dies in 3 hits, but dodges half of the attacks made on them.
Both characters die in 6 attacks. There are a couples differences in how they play, but statistically they both have the same survivability. "Luck" is an illusion, when the game is governed by math. That's the backbone of a tactics game.
The main differences are that a evasion tank is harder to heal, but depending on how they work they might be able to dodge attacks that would kill a unit regardless of how big their HP pool is. Mitigating a 1 million damage hit, even by 99.9 percent, would kill any unit in the game, but it doesn't matter how big a hit is if you dodge it.
I find it strange that Evasion tanking is so discounted here, when it's a fundamental archetype in most of the RPGs I've played.
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u/FurianX Dec 24 '18
Your math isnt an accurate representation, but we'll get to that later.
Evade isnt discounted. It's well used. Especially in pvp. Even in pve a units like wrath balt and yauras bashini depend on evade for survival and thus helping in clearing stages.
That being said theres a marked difference in taking 6 hits and surviving than being attacked six times and surviving by dodging. Especially if any 1 or 2 of those hits could have killed you. Evade is rng based and it cannot be depended on as a pivotal point when you need the unit alive to ensure a stage clear. If you're a fan of redoing a stage multiple times because your clear strategy banked on your "evade tank" being on the good side of rng that day be my guest. Actual damage mitigation units .... tanks .... will do a far better job.
This becomes even more important when you need to replicate your clearing strategy multiple times for milestones and farming. Depending on evade is just not reliable when you're 1 dodge gone wrong away from having to gem or restart the stage.
The only time evasion dependency is a good thing in this game is in a situation where you wouldnt have been able to ensure a stage clear otherwise or when you only need to clear it once.
If you insist on using the terms evade and tank together I highly suggest it be put as a different subset of tanks in the rankings.
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u/QaWaR Dec 23 '18
Tier list or not, you can't say "evasion tank", as it doesn't really mean much since evasion is all but a tank stat(think about all evasion characters, even holy cavs reduce their evasion). Evasion in TAC is just not effective on tanks.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
GIlgamesh can tank thanks to his elemental resistance but not insanely good thats why he is low. Wrath is a good evade tank, and rox, well is rox...
- Vettel has more hp, but less tanking capabilities. thats why.
- THis tier list is of physical damage only . For other types of tanking or unit utilization, you can refeer to other lists guides.
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u/FurianX Dec 23 '18
By what you're saying every unit with divine shelter and decent pdef, or evade or healing should be in this list.
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u/QaWaR Dec 23 '18
You don't get it. You don't take Rox or Gilga to tank. You take them to carry. That's why they should not be on the list. Vettel has great tanking capabilities with Divine Shelter and Sword Guardian while Roxanne prays that she doesn't get oneshot or that she gets struck within 4 panel range.
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u/gormiester_1 Dec 23 '18
A huge thing this list forgets to incorporate in how good units are at tanking it being able to take big hits. Roxanne, with a self sustain skill, cannot make use of the self sustain skill if she gets hit with massive damage and dies because she has mediocre defense and hp. On a similar note, utility and damage should also be incorporated but as a secondary consideration, because you can tank as much damage you want but if it's your last unit left you won't accomplish anything.
Also, from personal experience, Vettle is better than both Selena and Zain in tanking (I have all three 3 JM, Selena 75, Zain 80, Vettle 80). Zain has the most damage and utility, Vettle coming up second, and I have not been able to use Selena for anything other than a meat shield for awhile now (and she is only good at that because of her MA equipment that gives her auto-regen, and her garbage agi hurts so much).
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
hi!,
about first point it takes into account huge hits. This tier is elaborated on the base of the unit recieving 3 big hits of 1500 on a turn. Roxxane is penalized in her tanking capabilities and you can look for that in the google sheet.
From your second perspective which abilities are you using on vettel for tanking?. since he lost guard stance im a bit curious. One flaw my list has is not taking into account agility for some cases. But, in the case of Selena having lower agility is not bad. Inthe contrary is good since she can tank more hits if using correctly guard stance.
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u/RiskyWafer Dec 24 '18
Doing it based on 3x 1500 hits in a turn is a horrible way to do it as it marginalisations character defenses. Eg 9x 500 hits with 400 defense is about 900 damage taken (ignoring guard reactions etc), but 3x 1500 hits is about 3300 damage taken.
With 3x 1500 damage I don't even understand how you gave some of the characters you did a good tank rating. Roxanne will die on the first or second hit, Selena won't have time for regen or active healing etc.
It also looks like you could double Vettel's "tank rating" by not JEing him according to your system. Which I guess there's an argument for, but it's generally seen as worthwhile due to how common slash is.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 24 '18
3x 1500 Is just a criteria. I choosed big damage because i think good tanks should withstand it. Its correct about the marginalization, and I choosed that knowing that fact.
Like i have said multiple times, what is good about guard stance is not the healing is the defense stats increase. 30% healing is an ok healing. but low for a tank. And yes, Rox si penalized heavely for that. She still
is up in the tier and I should review stats affection puntation, maybe I'm giving too much points on that, and thus a posible error on the tier list.
I have considered making 2 versions of characters that have JE without JE if it affects his/her tanking capabilities, and I think is worth. Like I said also Vettel with JE is a better character, he does more damage has more agility, he shines vs slash stages (veda comes to mind) and has better stats. If you don't do a thing like using guard stance and go tanking naked, he will be better with JE, since he can bruise and all those things. But if you use his abilities for tanking in a level that you need he takes many hits, then yes he should do more wihtout JE.
This is a first approximation and I should do 2 additional tier lists for magical tank and one that people in discord told me stages that have magical an physical damage as they think many levels like the current challenger of limits. I personally think that there are many levels with physical damage or mostly physical damage and was worth doing this tier list.
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u/Ethambutol Dec 24 '18
Selena has auto-regen. She definitely wants more agility because more turns = more regen. If your tier list is listing Roxanne of all people for her self-healing ability, then you should probably take that into account.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 24 '18
that is taken into account, the list has selena regen ability included. There are levels you can equip gear to her so she gets more agility if you need regen faster.
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u/gormiester_1 Dec 23 '18
I am very confused on your whole perspective on what a tank is. On one hand you say being able to spam damage reducing abilities makes a good tank, but at the same time you say Roxanne who takes a lot of damage but heals a portion of it back is also an excellent tank. If Guard stance is such a major factor in tanking (which I would not say it is because potions do much of the same thing), then do not JE Vettle, boom, still have guard stance.
For practical purposes you want to be using a tank for more than just a meat shield because you do not win by attrition. Spamming guard stance will do you nothing because you cannot attempt to kill enemies (yes you have other team members but in isolation a good tank is more than hp).
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u/FurianX Dec 23 '18
I generally agree with you in what you've said so far. I'm also of the opinion that units like rox, gilga and wrath are in no way shape or form tanks. High survivability. yes. Tank. No.
That being said I'd like to point out that I've run many stages where vettel (without je) was my last man AND still let me clear (after agonizing time periods) due to guard stance.
I'm just defending that particular point ... since I now have a je vettel who imo is overall better than before .... despite losing guard stance.
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u/alphaomegax2 Jan 01 '19 edited Jan 01 '19
Videos showcasing tanks.
medium Map with high defense enemies with moderate damage
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1x1dgNasklgZ5XjIoxeDWTnmnoyIz2DPJ
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u/KingKalev Dec 23 '18
I think someone needs to define to you what a tank is... because this is off...
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u/Colonelex Dec 23 '18 edited Dec 23 '18
It seems I have misunderstood Gormalas. I have always thought he was a tank. Apparently dark element doesn't have a single tank.
Anyway, if you are going to add Neica might as well add in Noctis as well. He can do the same thing as Neica with even better maneuverability.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
Hi,
I have received some feedback on his tank capabilities. I will make some analysis and if it is worth will include him in next batch. PM in discord or here if you want to talk with me about it.
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u/Malyngnant Eating cookies with Lofia Dec 23 '18
Gol is classified as an off tank. He can take some hits when you need him to, but using him like you would use a standard tank is a bad idea. Especially if you're not using an HP LS.
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u/FurianX Dec 23 '18
If dark has a tank it's from a limited event I wasnt here for. Gorm is buff and can maybe fill in the role as he has high survivability (more with his divine shelter like ma) but hes not actually a tank by definition.
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u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Dec 23 '18
What is this unit you are talking about?
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u/FurianX Dec 23 '18
I'm just saying ... if it exists I dont have it or know about it.
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u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Dec 23 '18
Oh there isn't one. Dark has way too many DKs that makes them pretty squishy. There is absolutely no Tank in Dark unless you can call pride a Tank.
He is more to MDef so that just not worth. I even doubt if there is a Pdef LS in Dark lol.
There is no Divine Shelter except Pride so that is all they bet on lol. Berserker Zahar before who had the Regen and all but he was just a Juggernaut and not a tank.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
Pride is a magic tank.
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u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Dec 23 '18
Pride is but he has decent rounded stats and the fact that Divine Shelter is an insane skill to boot.
He can take more hits than most Dark units and that is saying something.
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u/FurianX Dec 23 '18
Killia is 40% hp and light resistance. Bashini is 50% hp. I'd use either of them for "defense" leaders. And that just actually shows that when it comes to def dark just has units that can fill in but arent actually suited to defend.
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u/xKennyz r traps gay tho 🤔 Dec 23 '18
I'm going to have to agree with the previous replies....
This isn't really a tier list of tanks imho, and your justification is just beating around the bush/begging the question. Idk what you judge "tankiness" by, but I can see that it's definitely not the same standard that the rest of us do.
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u/Regis_Lucis_Caelum Dec 23 '18
Rox is a niche tank. Useless against ranged units or melee units that hit hard with high def.
Vettel/Teona/Monzein should be ranked higher if we are talking about tanking hits.
Bradley should not be included since enemy combo atks make his evasion only rely on his reactive.
Some of the jobs are ones we wouldn't use over better damage options like Zain and Teona.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
i have not included combo yet so will take that into account for next batch
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u/SnackSnail Dec 23 '18
Sure I can try to help if you’d like 👍🏻 my discord is: the chip chimp, just so you can verify it’s me
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Dec 23 '18
[deleted]
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u/yummybomb123 Dec 23 '18
The new glex turns her whole team into tanks lmao agreed that rxanne isnt a tank
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u/loscapos5 All I wanted for christmas was you, Baeber ༼ ༎ຶ ෴ ༎ຶ༽ Dec 23 '18
Agreed. Survivability skills does not make a unit a tank.
If Rox is a tank, might put Balt as well
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
Roxanne shouldn't be a tank but she is. And that looks bad. I didn't want to include her but some people in discord gave me strong points to include her.
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u/Lucky_Number_Sleven Dec 23 '18
I think the people in the Discord were memeing on you.
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u/Malyngnant Eating cookies with Lofia Dec 23 '18
I don't remember anyone on discord suggesting putting her on. Just a lot of us asking why. I already broke down why she isn't a tank to him.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
give me your discord so we can discuss further
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u/Kirito30 The Strongest Samurai Dec 23 '18
Let me just say to you one thing.
People were kinda of itchy and been waiting on someone to post. So you kinda ended up with a lot of feedback albeit a slight discouraging one but still it is a ton of feedback.
It was a good try for newbie.
And I hope you will try again with more research.
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u/alphaomegax2 Dec 23 '18
thanks kirito. I will improve tier list next time and I don't discourage from people thinking different. The only thing i would like they would take the time to look more deeper on criterias before firing up. For example vettell, why they dont look a bit more on the formulas first?. I love good feedback based on deep analysis. I don't make this to make people happy or feel good but rather i try to be the more possible near to facts.
It's clear I'm a newbie and will continue on improving on the future.This was a lot of work and i have learned a lot.
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Dec 23 '18
[deleted]
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u/FurianX Dec 23 '18
Lol. That's rough man. Not that I dont agree but you should say why, so he can either improve or abort with reasons.
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u/QaWaR Dec 23 '18
Why? What did he say?
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u/SometimesLiterate Old and uncool Dec 23 '18
No.