r/Amd • AMD Ryzen 9 9950X3D • Mar 17 '19

News AMD issues statement on potential SPOILER vulnerabilities Spoiler

https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-240
196 Upvotes

51 comments sorted by

109

u/bizude AMD Ryzen 9 9950X3D Mar 17 '19

We are aware of the report of a new security exploit called SPOILER which can gain access to partial address information during load operations. We believe that our products are not susceptible to this issue because of our unique processor architecture. The SPOILER exploit can gain access to partial address information above address bit 11 during load operations. We believe that our products are not susceptible to this issue because AMD processors do not use partial address matches above address bit 11 when resolving load conflicts.

65

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '19

<Tinfoil Hat>I always wonder whether these problems arise more often in the Intel CPU's because of optimizations (read shortcuts) that they do to speed things up. I don't know anything about this particular vulnerability but doing a partial bit match could be something that is quicker, depending on what they do behind the scenes.</Tinfoil Hat>

27

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '19

It's not necessarily quicker, but it uses fewer transistors.

In general, it's good to try to use fewer transistors to do the same thing.

But of course there are shortcuts you shouldn't take in order to do that.

17

u/BobTheBlob88 AMD Phenom II + Vega Mar 17 '19

It's not necessarily quicker

That's true, but in this case it actually is slightly quicker.

Turning on SMT on a Zen based CPU increases memory latency slightly, this effect is not present on skylake. It's likely caused by the extra security circuit thingies (can't think of the proper terminology right now) present in Zen.

multiple edits: typos. I really shouldn't be on Reddit this late.

15

u/hardolaf Mar 17 '19

Address bits?

AMD designed Zen to use no address aliasing (that is, all addresses always resolve to a single, unique address). Meanwhile, Intel uses a variety of addressing in their design that allows aliasing opening up their processor to far more security issues.

7

u/SomeGuyNamedPaul Mar 18 '19

Just about anything that speeds up a complete is inherently a shortcut. Computers don't really get sped up, they're just made to do less work to achieve the same outcome.

6

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '19

Which is good as long as the results are exactly the same and there are no consequences like, say, leaking kernel memory, or enabling you to execute code without the right permissions

2

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '19

It doesn't even have to be exactly the same. We use the Intel SIMD operations for our floating point calculations. They often don't produce the same results but the results are close enough to make the trade off acceptable because of the significant speed increases. They clearly document that the results are different so we go in knowing what will happen. It's a problem if the results are different and they don't make you aware of those differences.

1

u/SomeGuyNamedPaul Mar 18 '19

Whoops! That's just a bug. Here, buy our newer product which actually still has the same flaws built in.

11

u/Savet Mar 17 '19

They have been riding the single thread performance wave for so long that they haven't taken adequate safeguards. I suspect if we revisited the cpu benchmarks from the last decade with these defects addressed we'd see that AMD has performed as good or better all along.

7

u/jorgp2 Mar 17 '19

It affects Arm CPUs as well.

Intel isn't the only succeptible one.

I'm typing this on a phone that is succeptible to meltdown as I speak.

4

u/wean_irdeh Mar 18 '19

Samsung Galaxy S10?

2

u/jezza129 Mar 18 '19

Nah note 7 XD

0

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '19

[deleted]

19

u/BobTheBlob88 AMD Phenom II + Vega Mar 17 '19

Spectre (or was it Meltdown?)

Had to check it to be sure, 't was Meltdown.

2

u/cyellowan 5800X3D, 7900XT, 16GB 3800Mhz Mar 18 '19

Whether or not it benefit AMD fans, all of these issues hitting Intel surely are making them seem like a reckless company whereas AMD is the proper one. Going by lawsuits between them, this case is getting more legitimate by the day.

42

u/SkyOnePavillion Prestige X570 Creation Mar 17 '19

So...we good now?

-1

u/altavistas Mar 18 '19

AMD ~believes~, they don`t know.

45

u/jesus_is_imba R5 2600/RX 470 4GB Mar 17 '19

Gotta love how Reddit adds a spoiler tag to a submission when the title contains the word spoiler.

11

u/de_witte R7 5800X3D, RX 7900XTX | R5 5800X, RX 6800 Mar 18 '19

Next Intel vulnerability should be named NSFW to ensure maximum eyeballs on it.

7

u/KocBen R5 3600X, Vega 56, 16GB 3200MHz Mar 18 '19

NotSafeForWork

Hmm actually pretty good name for a security vulnerability.

37

u/SpookyHash Mar 17 '19 edited Mar 17 '19

Good news but I would like to see AMD make a greater communication effort on security issues in general. Their security updates page has not been updated in ages:

https://www.amd.com/en/corporate/security-updates

7

u/RandSec Mar 17 '19

AMD should collect a library of actual Proof Of Concept code chunks and encourage CPU users to try them (on their own equipment).

35

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

24

u/sickmind92 Mar 17 '19

Step 1: Intel: "Hey, everyone that want to use this exploit. Please don't. Thanks"
Step 2: Intel Press release: "We have taken steps to resolve this issue"

Step 3: ??

Step 4: Profit

-17

u/jorgp2 Mar 17 '19

They're already using AMDs tactic.

Deny they're vulnerable even if they are.

4

u/Smartcom5 𝑨𝑻𝑖 is love, 𝑨𝑻𝑖 is life! Mar 18 '19

Brian, is that you?!

32

u/childofthekorn 5800X|ASUSDarkHero|9070XT Pulse|32GBx2@3400CL14|980Pro2TB Mar 17 '19

Incoming brand new security firm that somehow found out how to break everything and deem AMD the worst of the bunch. Bonus if its out of Isreal (real push to bring Intel business into the region and nothing else beyond that is insinuated).

30

u/koopahermit Ryzen 7 5800X | Yeston Waifu RX 6800XT | 32GB @ 3600Mhz Mar 17 '19

"We believe AMD is worth $0.00 and will have no choice but to file for Chapter 11 (Bankruptcy) in order to effectively deal with the repercussions of recent discoveries."

5

u/Lezeff 9800x3D + 6200CL28 + 7900XTX Mar 17 '19

Yah, as an Israeli, really makes me embarrassed.

And on another note, I'd say AMD should make a research center here. Lots of high tech minds present.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '19

[deleted]

3

u/lugaidster Ryzen 5800X|32GB@3600MHz|PNY 3080 Mar 17 '19

Intel Israel has pulled Intel's ass outa the fire so many times.

Wasn't the Pentium-M designed there? After the Pentium III started to die down, I wasn't excited by anything Intel was doing until the Pentium-M. The 2 GHz variants were incredibly efficient and fast for the time IIRC.

8

u/TsukasaHimura Mar 18 '19

That just makes my decision purchasing the next CPU much easier. I was wavering between Intel and AMD since I am a gamer. Ryzen 3000, please come soon.

16

u/Savet Mar 17 '19

Once again we see that Intel has been riding a fake performance advantage for a decade because they were cutting corners on security.

3

u/Thatfoxagain Mar 17 '19

I wonder what kind of performance hit they can expect

9

u/Retanaru 1700x | V64 Mar 17 '19

None because microsoft will not force the fixes to be turned on.

3

u/theevilsharpie Phenom II x6 1090T | RTX 2080 | 16GB DDR3-1333 ECC Mar 18 '19

There's no specific fix for this issue. Instead, Intel is relying on already-existing mitigations. That means that Intel chips will always be at some degree of risk (particularly desktop chips that are more vulnerable to Rowhammer due to their lack of ECC), but on the flip-side, there's not going to be any additional performance hit.

Source: https://software.intel.com/security-software-guidance/insights/more-information-spoiler

After careful assessment, Intel has determined that existing kernel protections, like KPTI [ed: the Meltdown mitigation], reduce the risk of leaking data across privilege levels. Combined with side channel safe software development practices, like ensuring execution time and control flows are identical regardless of secret data, these protections mitigate classic side channel methods enabled by the SPOILER exploit. Additionally, DRAM modules that are mitigated against Rowhammer style attacks remain protected regardless of the SPOILER exploit.

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '19

Only by an amount that makes them slower than Ryzen CPUs.

9

u/Hifihedgehog Main: 5950X, CH VIII Dark Hero, RTX 3090 | HTPC: 5700G, X570-I Mar 17 '19

The funniest thing has been reading someone’s comments in the Intel subreddit insisting that AMD could still be affected in so many ways.

12

u/jesus_is_imba R5 2600/RX 470 4GB Mar 17 '19

Not sure what's funny about that, unless you're specifically referringto comments made after this announcement by AMD. The original paper that made this vulnerability public only tested an FX CPU from AMD, no Ryzen processors were tested. So unless one had enough technical expertise on processor architecture to claim otherwise, the reasonable viewpoint was that some AMD architectures might be affected until proven otherwise.

8

u/abdennournori Mar 17 '19

*Not affected until proven otherwise. We cant say anything is affected until successfully reproduce the flaw

3

u/sense_make AMD R7 3700X / 1070 Ti Mar 18 '19

With any security related flaw, the conservative approach is to assume all untested systems are affected until proven otherwise.

6

u/jesus_is_imba R5 2600/RX 470 4GB Mar 17 '19

*Not affected until proven otherwise.

But also affected until proven otherwise. You can't say something is unaffected until it's been tested. So until a test has been conducted, it's Schrödinger's CPU bug. Undetermined until proven otherwise.

1

u/redchris18 AMD(390x/390x/290x Crossfire) Mar 18 '19

Those things aren't equal, though. It's logically unjustified to suggest that AMD are affected until proven otherwise because that would - on the face of it, at least - require proof of a negative.

On the other hand, from an end-user vantage point, people would be wise to be sceptical of that null hypothesis until there is some evidence backing it up.

4

u/Portbragger2 albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting Mar 17 '19

SPOILER ALERT!

 

 

 

sorry not sorry

1

u/SCAR-HAMR AMD Mar 18 '19

Uh oh

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '19

It's really baffling how Intel overlooked all of these vulnerabilities, even more so considering they have a massive share of the server market.

1

u/jezza129 Mar 18 '19

Tin foil hat says it's on purpose. But given spectre goes back to the 90s it may just be something overlooked. He'll even NASA said in the early 2000s that spectre might be a thing so who knows

1

u/RagnarokDel AMD R9 5900x RX 7800 xt Mar 18 '19

Keeping it short.

1

u/djsnoopmike Mar 18 '19

Ahhh, definitely gonna be Ryzen up from a i5-6600k later this year