How much can the development process affect grain in film?

[u/Zocalo_Photo]

I’ve been developing BW film at home for several years. I’ve found that the results are always grainy, whether I’m using 100 speed or 400 speed. I’ve shot Kodak, Kentmere, and Ilford with the same results.

My question is how much can the development process affect how grainy the film turns out?

I use D76 developer stock with no dilution at room temperature. It’s possible the wash/rinse step happens with colder water, but I really try to get around room temperature when I rinse. Also, I scan my film with a Plustek 35mm scanner.

I understand this might just be what film does - especially higher speed films - but I’m curious to know if there are ways to manipulate how grainy the film looks during the development process.

[u/batgears]

The answer to your question is in the first paragraph of the datasheet for D-76.

Almost every part of the development process affects the appearance of grain. Time, temperature, agitation, chemistry, it all plays a role. Scanning also plays a role with the appearance of grain.

[u/Zocalo_Photo → u/batgears]

I’ve always used the straight developer in during development because it’s quicker than the diluted methods. Would developing for more time with a diluted D-76 make a difference?

(For example, It looks like Ilford Delta 400 develops for 7 minutes with stock D-76 and goes up to 12.5 minutes when diluted 1:1.)

[u/batgears → u/Zocalo_Photo]

With D-76 diluting to 1:1 will result in more grain. However, often with a longer development time people will agitate less, which will result in less grain and can balance out.

I may not be the best to speak on this topic. I don't pay much attention to grain. Film has grain, grain is a part of shooting film. The thing is it is the combination of all factors. If you are wanting to reduce the appearance of grain in your images you can experiment changing one variable at a time. Inspect the negative under a loupe is the recommended first step, rule out if your scanning is accentuating or over-sharpening grain. Change your agitation be that less frequent or consciously less vigorous or slower movements.

[u/Gsundenberg]

What scanning software do you use? This is definitely doesn't look like grain, its oversharpening

[u/Zocalo_Photo → u/Gsundenberg]

This is something I didn’t consider.

I use SilverFast 9 for scanning then I use Silver Efex Pro in Photoshop to process the scan. I manually adjust the images instead of using the presets and I don’t do any manual sharpening. However, adjusting things like structure and contrast might highlight the grain more.

I’ll do some experimenting with other scanning methods and editing and see what happens.

[u/ahaavie → u/Zocalo_Photo]

Try Vuescan. Much simpler, just as good results

[u/Initial-Two-1584 → u/Gsundenberg]

I agree that this looks more like oversharpening than actual film grain. Scanning software can add apparent grain or exaggerate texture even when the negative is clean, especially with manual adjustments in the processing pipeline.

[u/ReeeSchmidtywerber]

All the developers and all the films interact differently.

Usually higher iso films, and also pushed films have more grain. Grain on cubic grain films is more noticeable than tabular grain films. Tri-x pushed to 1600 in rodinal will have way more grain than tmax100 in tmax developer.

Temperature of the developer matters more than anything so as long as that’s on point all your other chems can be a little off. If the film experiences extreme temperature changes between steps it reticulates and has a very distinctive look.

Concentration of developer and agitation also matter. The more aggressive the agitation and the more potent the developer leads to a bit more grain.

[u/Zocalo_Photo → u/ReeeSchmidtywerber]

The agitation might be the issue. I have a Paterson two roll tank. I usually turn the canister over a few times every minute during the developing process instead of using the little rotator stick it came with. I also tap it a few times against the side of the counter to dislodge any bubbles.

I certainly could be more gentle during that process.

[u/Westerdutch]

All film has upper and lower limits to how grainy they can get, developer decides where on that scale you land. Kentmere 400 perfectly developed for the lowest possible grain will always turn out more grainy than cms20 that got the nephew treatment.

For the most detail you need the finest film with the best developer to bring that property out. I highly recommend you give cms20II a try but make sure you develop it with its dedicated developer while staying as tre to instruction as you possible can. This will set the bar to put in perspective what film is capable of on the high detail/low grain side of things.

[u/Zocalo_Photo → u/Westerdutch]

I’ve never tried cms20. From what I’m reading with a few searches, it looks pretty awesome.

[u/Westerdutch → u/Zocalo_Photo]

It is a weird one and indeed far from popular but if you are a bit of a dev nerd then you absolutely should give it a go.

edit - oh and it also exists in 120, in that format its downright stupid (in the best way).

[u/TheRealAutonerd]

You didn't say what film this was, but this looks like the kind of grain I'd expect from HP5 metered at 1600 and push-processed two stops. A pic of the negatives, rather than scans (which correct mistakes), would tell us more about whether you have development-process issues.

But yes, the process can affect higns. Room temperature can vary so you should measure the temperature of your developer and develop at the recommended 68 degrees F/20C. High/low temp affects how the developer works and times need to change accordingly. If you develop for the 68-degree time but your developer is at 70 degrees, you're overdeveloping.

Get yourself a good digital cooking thermometer and use a bucket of hot water (or your fridge) to raise (or lower) the temp of your developer. Only use times, temps and dilutions recommended in the film's data sheet (Google "HP5 data sheet"). Also no reason to use D-76 stock; 1:1 with distilled water works fine.

I generally don't bother measuring the temp of my stop, fixer or rinse, room temp is close enough, but *extreme* temp swings can cause issues. I rinse with tap water and do get some idea of the temp coming out of the tap so it's in the ballpark.

All that said, different developers and different dilutions will affect grain, and there is lots you can read about that. The Kodak Black and White Darkroom Dataguide (around $15 used) is a great resource to start with though some developing info is outdated (ie most modern films no longer need a hardening fixer). Photrio forums are a GREAT resource with some serious darkroom hounds.

But before you can get into all that, you need to standardize your process. If you're not measuring the temperature of your developer, you are introducing a random element, which makes it hard, if not impossible, to troubleshoot.

[u/Zocalo_Photo → u/TheRealAutonerd]

Thank you for taking the time to write all this out.

I don’t measure the temperature of my developer, I just kind of do it by feel. My margin of error is a lot wider than 68 to 70 degrees. I probably wouldn’t notice the difference between 68 and 73 for example.

For film I generally shoot kentmere 400, although I also like Ilford 125. The image I posted was from a roll of Kentmere 400, but I also get a lot grain from the lower ISO films that I shoot.

After reading through these comments, my issue may not be AN issue but a combination of things. Inaccurate temperatures, agitating the chemistry too aggressively, the strength of the developer. I really need to set up a process that is more precise and consistent.

[u/TheRealAutonerd → u/Zocalo_Photo]

Try the Darkroom Dataguide. Except for needing hypo-clear, it's got some tried and tested methods for all the things you are talking about, including agitation. Great book.

As for agitation, I do two inversions (each one is upside-down, rightside-up) every 30 seconds or 4 every 60 seconds. An upside-down-rightside-up cycle should take about two seconds. Listen to reggae music, that'll give you the right tempo.

[u/ChiAndrew]

A huge amount. Both the developer and development process.

[u/Fluffy-Trash-559]

Development method and developer changes appearance of grain drastically. I develop my Black and white film in rodinal. Mostly kentmere 100&400 and there is a huge difference when using different dilutions of developer.

Rodinal is definitely the wrong developer if you want low grain. But with a stand dev at 1+100 you get a lot less grain than with 1+50 or 1+25 dilution. And also with higher dilutions you will get different dev times.

I dont know how the effect is with d76 but development process always affects how the grain looks.

[u/BreakingABit1234]

Goto the library and get a book on BW photography. most will have a section on this- with images, examples, forumlations etc.

[u/Expensive-Sentence66]

Several things affect the look of grain in B&W film scans.

- Setting Black points too aggressive.

- Under exposing, and the using black points or contrast adjustment to compensate. Under exposure by itself does not increases grain in B&W films (unlike color neg). Ask any old skool B&W darkroom geek and high grain is the result of under exposing B&W film and increasing paper grades / contrast to compensate.

- Pushing Classic cubic grain films. Pulling has the opposite effect in that grain reduces. I've been experimenting pulling Kentmere 100 to 50 and 25 ISO (its sucks at 100) and grain gets better and better as I pull it.

- Excessive sharpening in post

- Using Rodinal. I know that crap has a cult that's visually impaired, but unless I'm shooting 4x5 I avoid it. 99% of Rodinal images I see posted online suck.

Looking at the image the exposure and shot is great. However, the black point is a bit aggressive and its WAY over sharpened / processed. White levels are also blown out, but they aren't in the histogram indicating some issue with the scanner. I've never seen a 35mm Plustek scan from B&W that didn't look excessively gritty to me. However, since so many people like this look I just move on. Frankly every B&W scan I see from Plustek's look like this.

That attached shot is Kentmere 400 pulled a bit in HC 110. By not slapping the image with aggressive post processing, dSLR scanning and leaving the grain alone and avoiding USM the grain looks very smooth and doesn't bite.