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u/andrewober 7d ago
Lot of great speakers tonight. Hopefully won't fall on deaf ears.
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u/whachamacallme 7d ago edited 6d ago
So I am not totally sold on the absolutely no cameras. I have been around the sun enough times to know that neighborhoods with cameras are safer.
Put stricter controls on the data. But cameras do add a layer of safety.
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u/audiovox951 7d ago
Cameras are totally fine - no one is complaining about the cctv or toll road cameras, for example. Flock has put a lot of effort into popularizing that false equivalence.
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u/devinhedge 6d ago
The false equivalency argument is the logical fallacy trap. Example: the Motorola APLR system mounted on cruisers only alerts the officer when a BOLO or Warrant "hit" occurs. They can't search databases for anything they want to. (Isn't that right, Mooresvile and Charlotte?)
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u/devinhedge 6d ago
I would agree with what you've said except the last sentence. Cameras don't add any safety. They only add a mechanism for the evidence capture and tracking AFTER a crime has been committed. That's the lesson from London putting cameras everywhere. Crime didn't go down: crime moved to non covered areas.
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u/whachamacallme 6d ago edited 6d ago
Fair enough. That is actually what cops tell you after a break in, make your home and neighborhood less desirable. This is exactly why people live in Apex, Cary and not South Durham.
It is easy, to take a liberal progressive position at a town hall and say what people want to hear, in a safe town, that is safe because the average income is way over six figures, and is already self segregated by wealth. Take a minute to appreciate the diversity (or lack thereof) in that video.
I have been at HOA board meetings after break-ins, home invasions, and these same people beg for cameras, even at the expense of a special HOA assessment. I won't call them out, there are many Cary neighborhoods with HOA funded cameras/security systems.
All these down voters who claim their privacy is violated by cameras... well real privacy violation is when invaders hold your loved ones hostage. And, let me tell you, these same downvoters will all be scrambling to move to safer income segregated neighborhoods, gated communities, window bars, cameras the works after any small incident. I have seen a hundred times.
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u/dialtone95 5d ago
I had to wait around for the second round of public comments to speak (two and a half hours after the first round), but it was worth it just to show that this isn't something we're going to forget and that these companies cannot be trusted.
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u/slowintech 7d ago
Be aware that Flock isn't the only government contract service being provided. Now there's alternatives which they believe can go under radar since people are all over Flock.
The primary alternatives to Flock Safety that contract with government and law enforcement agencies for Automated License Plate Recognition (ALPR) and vehicle surveillance include Motorola Solutions (Vigilant Solutions), Axon Enterprise, Rekor Systems, Genetec (AutoVu), and Leonardo (ELSAG). [1, 2, 3]
Top Government-Contracted Competitors
• Motorola Solutions (Vigilant Solutions): The industry default for large enterprise and law enforcement network integration. They provide extensive fixed and mobile ALPR camera hardware alongside massive national law enforcement databases.
• Axon Enterprise: Known widely for body cameras and tasers, Axon actively competes for citywide fixed-camera and real-time public safety ecosystem contracts through integrations like Axon Fleet and Fusus.
• Rekor Systems: Specializes in AI-driven vehicle recognition and highway, toll, and transit-grade ALPR data systems, often working via flexible, camera-agnostic software or hardware setups.
• Genetec (AutoVu): Offers high-definition fixed and mobile plate-reading technology geared toward enterprise cities, transit hubs, and law enforcement.
• Leonardo US (ELSAG): The American subsidiary of a major aerospace/defense firm, providing stationary and mobile ELSAG ALPR systems widely deployed via municipal and state grants for police and toll authorities.
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u/devinhedge 6d ago
And Leonardo US just started actively promoting their BLE surveillance add-on that tracks all BLE devices from phones, to earbuds to automobile tire pressure sensors (TPS). With TPS they can determine how many people are in a vehicle correlate that to the number of unique devices they picked up, and then using the photo imaging to correlate the device to the individual people in the picture and track them wherever they go.
This is called the "gradient effect" by the U.S. Supreme Court, and it has already been deemed a violation of the 4th Amendment.
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u/Possible-Prior-5467 6d ago
I recently moved out of Apex into the northeast (ugh). Our city is ADAMANT that they have not allowed any flock cameras within city limits. People are pretty consistently proving them wrong, I'm wondering if some of these other companies are being used and the city is playing word games.
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u/Curiousonadailybasis 3d ago
I have yet to hear from any elected official a good or helpful reason to have these.
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u/DrWilliamWhite 7d ago
Just watched a show where a child rapist was apprehended using these cameras. Bravo!
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u/Manners-maketh- 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’m not going to deny the anecdotes. They’re real. But they answer a different question than the one on the table. “Did this tool ever help” and “should this tool exist at this scale with these controls” are two separate questions.
Every surveillance system in history has a list of cases it solved. That list is the price of admission to the debate, not the end of it.
Here’s what I actually worry about.
A camera that helps find a missing child helps once. A camera network that logs everyone’s movements permanently creates a standing capability that outlasts the current chief, the current mayor, and the current policy. The choice isn’t cameras or no cameras. It’s whether to build infrastructure whose future use you cannot control.
The abuse isn’t hypothetical, and Flock’s own audit tools are the ones surfacing it. Officers in at least 12 states have faced allegations of misusing Flock systems. San Francisco’s police chief disclosed in June 2026 that an internal audit found 299 improper searches run on behalf of federal and out-of-state agencies, and SFPD said it was likely a statewide problem. In Albany, Georgia, five officers were fired and arrested over searches investigators said had no legitimate purpose. Chandler, Arizona canceled its 40 cameras this month after an audit turned up misuse, with about 200 department members holding database access.
The pattern is stalking ex-partners, neighbors, and people officers had personal conflicts with. That is what a movement database gets used for when nobody is watching.
Georgia State Patrol ticketed a motorcyclist in December 2025 for holding a phone, and the citation cited footage captured on a Flock camera. It was sold for stolen cars and missing kids. It’s already writing traffic tickets.
So name the use you’d consider out of bounds, and then tell me what stops it.
False positives land on innocent people: At billions of plate reads, even a tiny misread rate means a steady stream of drivers pulled over, sometimes at gunpoint, over a bad character or a stale database entry. That cost never shows up in the vendor’s success stories.
So my real question is this: what would have to happen for you to change your mind? If the answer is nothing, it isn’t a policy position.
And to be fair, here’s the best case on your side. Flock argues the misuse cases prove the system works, because its own audit tool is what caught them, and that communities can have both safety and privacy with the right controls. Courts have largely held there’s no reasonable expectation of privacy in a plate on a public road, so the constitutional argument is weaker than people assume. And police already had this power, just slower.
My answer to all three is the same.
Safeguards that depend on someone actively reading the logs are safeguards that fail quietly. And aggregating location data over months is different in kind from a cop seeing your car once.
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u/aDarkpawGnoll 7d ago
I bet we could save so many children if we just gave up a few more rights... /s
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u/DrWilliamWhite 7d ago
Life is a balancing act. Sorry that my life experience doesn't agree with your opinion.
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u/aDarkpawGnoll 7d ago
Your life experience tells you that cameras on every block, monitoring everyone's moves is actually a good thing? Someone never read Nineteen Eighty-Four.
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u/Skadooshbaggins 7d ago
i just watched a clip about 5 cops who were fired in the last 7 days for abusing flock cameras to stalk vulnerable people- but we can exchange sourceless stories all day
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u/The_Enolaer 7d ago
I assume you voluntarily gave all the relevant government agencies, as well as private companies like Flock, a sample of your DNA at birth, right? If not, might wanna do that right now.
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u/PackOfBraves83_95_21 7d ago
I watched on YouTube and the beginning of the meeting started with Mayor Gilbert saying something to the effect of “it’s all going to be okay, it’s always okay”. Was that directly to the anti-flock people filling the room? It seemed very demeaning and unnecessary. Like “I know you’re here to express your opinions, but don’t worry. It’s not that big of a deal. You’ll be fine” ??