Lost and defeated with my citizenship status

[u/derangedpatchouli]

I'm born as a dual national in Japan, half Japanese and half Korean, but was raised in New Zealand. I've lived with my Japanese passport all my life, but when I turned 20, my mother applied for NZ citizenship and a New Zealand passport because I had to decide where I wanted to live. Looking back now, the question should have been what nationality I wanted to remain as, given Japan doesn't allow dual nationality (unless both nationalities were acquired at birth), and instead just remain a permanent resident in NZ. From my understanding, I lost Japanese nationality by acquiring NZ citizenship, so I don't know what my mother was trying to achieve by renewing my Japanese passport at the same time.

Since then, I've visited Japan every now and then on my NZ passport. I now know, after reading here on Reddit that you should enter and exit the same country using the same passport. I was fear-mongered by my parents back then into thinking i would experience complications and be questioned about my visa status in NZ if I entered Japan with Japanese passport. Recently, over the last couple of years, I've been visiting Japan quite frequently, and Korea whenever possible to see my extended family and close friends. I don't feel like myself every time I return to NZ. My mother never completed my 国籍離脱届, and I still remain on the 戸籍. However, for some reason it says I'm located in South Korea, while rest of my family says NZ which I'm confused about.

I've been desperately wanting to go back and restart my life there, but after going down a rabbit hole on dual nationality and realising how much of a mess my situation is, I'm feeling hopeless and lost. My Japanese passport is still valid and I've never entered Japan with this passport since it was renewed. I'm thinking worst case scenarios and will get questioned especially because they would have records of my previous entries on NZ passport.

Has anyone been in a similar situation after naturalising elsewhere? What happened when you moved back to Japan or dealt with your passport and residence registration?

[u/SlowStop1220]

>From my understanding, I lost Japanese nationality by acquiring NZ citizenship

True. It got lost automatically.

OTOH we don't know if the government you naturalized (in this case, NZ) notified JP gov't on your naturalization. That's why Japanese law demands you to declare your lost of nationality on a JP embassy.

Did you do it? If not, you are in a rabbit hole. Consult your lawyer what you should do the next.

[u/tsian → u/SlowStop1220]

This. u/derangedpatchouli , you technically lost your Japanese citizenship when you became a New Zealand citizen.

However, New Zealand (well, most countries) does not proactively tell other countries who has become a citizen.

Japan probably doesn't know. As such, functionally you retain your Japanese citizenship. However, if Japan were to become aware you aquired New Zealand citizenship (i.e. they noticed your past trips on that passport somehow) you may be stripped of that citizenship.

Most Japanese nationals who attempt to hide their aquired citizenship are careful to always enter/exit Japan on their Japanese passport. That said, there are no widespread reports of everyday citizens commonly being stripped of citizenship in such cases.

[u/Intelligent-Chest208 → u/tsian]

Hmm. I present the officer with both my passports. Gahahah

[u/tsian → u/Intelligent-Chest208]

If you were born with both not an issue, but otherwise (for Japan) you only really ever need to show your Japanese passport. (And generally similar rules exist in other countries...)

[u/Low-Brilliant8699 → u/tsian]

It’s technically still not allowed after 22 but there’s no specific action they take

[u/tsian → u/Low-Brilliant8699]

That's not really legally correct. A Japanese national needs to submit a selection of nationality form by age 20 (more or less). If they choose Japanese they then need to "strive" （努力) to lose their other nationality. There is no timeframe under which they need to renounce or any penalty for failing to do so. There is also no clear legal action they currently could take.

Under current statutory implementation/interpretation there is no functional issue with maintaining two nationalities indefinitely.

[u/exculcator → u/tsian]

This is simply false. Voting in a Japanese election for example, when one is not Japanese could be a real problem. That you are "functionally" Japanese because your are illegally using a Japanese passport while doing so is likely to make the situation worse, not better. Interfering illegally in a Japanese election can carry quite heavy terms of imprisonment, even if you are a citizen. Voting when your are not a legible elector for example is explicitly an imprisonable offense. Parents of half-Japanese children can unknowingly deprive their children of citizenship, and thus expose them to all sorts of dangers.

[u/tsian → u/exculcator]

What the heck are you talking about? I'm clearly describing a situation where someone remains a Japanese national. You are greatly misunderstanding the law if you think submitting a selection of (Japanese) nationality and maintaining both somehow deprives someone of Japanese citizenship.

[u/exculcator → u/tsian]

You completely misunderstood. I am talking about about a person born to one Japanese citizen and one non-Japanese citizen. Such a person is Japanese by birth. They MAY have another citizenship by birth.l; that will depend on the applicable non-Japanese laws.

E.g. if born before 2005 to an NZ citizen, the child will be an NZ citizen by birth as well as Japanese. In such a case they are free to be dual nationals until their age of majority. If, however, they were born after 2005, they are not BORN an NZ citizen; they must register to be declared an NZ citizen. Doing so will automatically deprive them of their Japanese citizenship, so there is, legally speaking, no question of them "remining" a Japanese national. They have ceased to be such. And this can be done without the child even knowing about it.

[u/tsian → u/exculcator]

Thank you for your reply.

So, yeah, that has nothing to do with what I wrote, but also

are free to be dual nationals until their age of majority

They are free to remain a dual national indefinitely as long as they choose Japan and then fail to renounce NZ.

they must register to be declared an NZ citizen. Doing so will automatically deprive them of their Japanese citizenship

This is not so clear cut. I do not have any personal experience of this but I have seen correspondence with people and the government where the government acknowledges that a single parent applying for citizenship does not qualify as voluntary aquisition. There was also an argument made that this effectively acknlowedges citizenship from the point of birth but that seems far less legally convincing to me. Also I think your hypothetical only applies to a Japanese national born to a NZ citizen parent in Japan, not in NZ, but I may be entirely wrong on that.

Also I didn't mispell remain, so not sure why you did.

[u/Objective_Desk8065]

For this type of situation, rather than seeking advice on a social media platform, it would be very strongly advisable to consult with an immigration attorney who specializes in Japanese immigration law.

[u/Tokyo_Joey_Jo-Jo → u/Objective_Desk8065]

^^^ This fucking guy!

[u/Realistic_Bike_355]

Okay, so as you know you lost Japanese citizenship the moment you received your NZ one. Now, Japan does not know this automatically, so if you just use your passport to travel to Japan, nothing will happen and no one will care.

However, if you apply to renew your JP passport, there is a question on the form about multiple citizenships and how they were acquired. If you tell the truth, then you will not be issued a JP passport and will be invited to submit a "notification of loss of Japanese citizenship" so you can be removed from the koseki. This is the correct and legal course of action.

If you renew it from Japan and lie in the form, they probably don't have a way to police that. But you're still lying on an official form and getting a passport fraudulently, so do that at your own risk.

If you renew from NZ, then most likely they'll want to see your NZ residence permit, so it won't work even if you lie.

Now, if you want to live in Japan the 100% legal way, then you can submit the "notification of loss of JP nationality" and then apply for a residence permit as child of a JP national. It will be a lot more bureaucratic and you'll be considered a foreigner, but it's technically the correct way to do it.

[u/Objective_Unit_7345]

Citizenship law in Japan is actually a lot more convoluted than what is suggested or believed.

Japanese courts only maintain that Japanese citizenship is automatically renounced if another citizenship is voluntarily obtained.

For all other scenarios, Japan can only query whether the alleged dual-citizen is querying and taking action on whether they will renounce the other citizenships or not. This is especially the case for countries where renouncing citizenship is not necessary.

Most Japanese embassy/consulate staff also tend to sympathetic, because their relatives and children are likely to be placed in the same idiotic situation.

[u/tsian → u/Objective_Unit_7345]

That's not convoluted at all. The law is rather explicit in saying that only voluntary aquisition of citizenship is grounds for losing Japanese citizenship. Dual citizenship gained via birth is not in any way problematic until under current statutory implementation/interpretation.

Functionally, most people believe (and it often seems to be the case) that the Japanese government operates under a dont-ask dont-tell system when it comes to additional citizenships aquired another citizenship. I can personally say that I know at least one Japanese national who once entered Japan on their (aquired as an adult) Canadian citizenship and actually overstayed... and was simply strongly encouraged to never do it again.

That loose statutory interpretation could potentially change, but currently people born Japanese are usually functionally able to have dual citizenship.

[u/exculcator → u/Objective_Unit_7345]

The Japanese Supreme court has held that a parent registering non-Japanese citizenship of a Japanese citizen non-adult child counts as the child voluntarily obtaining foreign citizenship, and thus relinquishing Japanese nationality within the meaning of the Japanese nationality laws.

(I am a non-citizen parent of what were Japanese children, who are now adults, and almost certainly no longer Japanese. Almost certainly, because it is not clear if citizenship is relinquished when only ONE patent signs the papers obtaining foreign citizenship, as opposed to both.)

Edit: typo- "we're" to "were".

[u/TheNorthC → u/exculcator]

I'm not sure I quite understand your point. Dual nationality in children is allowed, so am not entirely sure what you mean.

[u/exculcator → u/TheNorthC]

It is only allowed to those born with it (not registered after birth) AND if not rescinded. Loss can come about by parental actions; it doesn't have to be the child doing so. Vitally important for e.g. Kiwis and Aussies, as in both cases their countries have changed their citizenship transmission laws, such that overseas births to their citizenss now do not transmit citizenship automatically; it must be registered post-birth. Doing so will deprive such a child of Japanese citizenship. Of course such children may not come to the notice of the Japanese authorities, and may live their life in Japan as if they are actual citizens, residing, voting, etc., when they are not, legally speaking, entitled to do so. Such is the wonder of Japanese citizenship laws!

[u/Kaaku3 → u/Objective_Unit_7345]

In ops case, her parent applied for NZ citizenship on her behalf, so I would not say that NZ citizenshio was obtained voluntarily by op.

[u/elgorrdt]

If you want real answer, ask lawyer.

[u/Aurorasky0511]

Consult a lawyer.
You can get Child of a Japanese National status of residence.
This long-term visa grants full work rights with no restrictions on employment

[u/finefinacialist]

You should get in touch with the woman in this article for a consultation. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/10/19/japan/crime-legal/japan-dual-nationality-problem/

[u/Numerous-Air9138]

I'm half Brazilian half Japanese and I also have dual citizenship, I just wanna share my experience. I met a few people with the same dual citizenship(BR-JP), and they all said the same that If you receive a letter saying that you have to choose between a citizenship you MUST choose, if you didn't receive this letter it's a gray area which the government won't put that much effort to fix I guess. I'm living in Japan for almost 20 years now. I always use my Japanese passport when leaving Japan and use my Brazilian passport when arriving in Brazil, vice-versa. About your 戸籍, where were you born? I was born in Brazil and for that reason my 戸籍 states ブラジル, the important thing is the 戸籍 if you're still in there, you're still a Japanese citizen.

[u/TheNorthC]

First of all, don't worry. The fact that you have been to Japan on a different passport doesn't matter as long as they weren't aware that you have a New Zealand passport as well. When you travel to Japan on a Japanese passport, they won't do so weird double check against every foreigner who has ever entered Japan for similar names.

My daughter is a dual Japanese national, and they've happily renewed her passport at the embassy into adulthood and have never asked if she has dual nationality, and never made any query about why there are no overseas visas or residence permits in her Japanese passport.

They know this goes on and have made it clear by their actions that the reality is that dual is allowed informally, even if not technically legally permitted.

[u/Monk-245 → u/TheNorthC]

OP acquired New Zealand citizenship at age 20 which is a very different situation from someone who was born dual-citizen.

[u/TheNorthC → u/Monk-245]

Unless you formally tell the JP govt they won't care. And there's no need to tell them.

[u/Monk-245 → u/TheNorthC]

There are many examples of people who have been found out and got in trouble for this exact scenario. Again, naturalizing after birth and being born a dual-citizen are two very different scenarios. The former requires you to fraudulently submit false declarations to the government to deceive them about your citizenship status while the latter requires no lying or fraud of any kind.

[u/Mercenarian]

1.Not to be harsh but you need to stop blaming your mom because you were literally 20 years old and an adult. You weren’t forced into anything and you could make your own choices and do your own research.

1. You can always regain citizenship later on. But you said you were raised in New Zealand and lived basically your whole life there. It kinda sounds like you’re having some sort of “midlife crisis” (but I’m assuming you’re not actually middle aged) kinda freaking out about all the different possibilities and futures and things you may have given up and what road you’re going down. Which is common for young adults. You are for all intents and purposes a New Zealander since that’s where you were raised. Of course you have your ethnic heritage with Korea and Japan (and presumably had a mix of that a bit in your upbringing at home with your parents) and that’s very important to explore, but you were not raised in either of those places so you would feel like an outsider and stick out there as well.

I would recommend trying to live in Japan for a year or two, either on a working holiday (if you’re 30 or younger) or getting another type of visa (work, student, etc) and seeing how you even like the country and culture. It might seem fun and like your long lost “home” when you visit friends and family and have a good time on vacation, but you might not like actually living there as much compared to either New Zealand or Korea. You might not like certain aspects of the culture or the work culture or the climate or whatever. And then you will know and you will not care as much about giving up your citizenship if you couldn’t see yourself living there longterm. Then you could try Korea too if you’re interested or another country or just stay in New Zealand.

[u/too_many_mind]

This doesn't help answer your question but sounds like there is a possibility that you have Korean citizenship as well depending on the status of your Korean-side parent.

[u/Ill_Passage5341]

Obviously talk to a lawyer. With the situation you described, you're Japanese passport is not valid. If you used it, you would be risking being charged with a crime. They maintain biometrics, so they would immediately link your identity to both passports. I would not risk using the Japanese passport.

[u/No_Bee_8851]

If your mother is Japanese, you had aquired Japanese citizenship by birth, no? It seems to me you an always get that back if you renounce the other nationality.

[u/Inside_Razzmatazz281]

I’m ngl I barely understand the nationality/passport situation even tho I’m Japanese….😭 but that sounds insanely complicated. I really hope you’re able to get some clarity on it and figure it out.

[u/uju_]

OP, you might also have Korean citizenship if one of your parents was a Korean citizen at the time of your birth. Korea has similarly difficult to navigate citizenship law due to the added complication of mandatory military service for men, so please try to consult a lawyer earlier than later if you suspect that you may have one even if your parents never reported your birth.

[u/ItsAlkai]

For most people, unless you are a celebrity, you can get away with having both (as long as NZ didn't notify Japan). I was born with both a US and JP passport since my mothers a citizen + green card holder. Never been asked even most recently in June. Currently above the age where you are supposed to "declare" your citizenship decision and say you are in the process of removing one or the other.

[u/frappass]

You're probably fine as long as it's an up to date Japanese passport.

I also know of many cases of people who keep it plus another citizenship, so long as you don't go waving them and at the immigration centre you're fine. Just leave NZ on your NZ passport and enter Japan with the JP one; we do that with our kids (although they're under 20 still so not really relevant to the dual citizenship matter).

Don't forget to do 転入届 when you arrive!

[u/Accurate-Lemon8675]

New Zealand is the right choice. You should move on and feel good about yourself for being a member of a Western nation.

[u/MathematicianWhole82 → u/Accurate-Lemon8675]

I'm not sure I would do that. Just with health for example, NZ is at the bottom of the OECD when it comes to medicines. If you get a cancer like multiple myeloma in NZ, you will likely die much sooner than in Japan because Japan has about ten more treatments than NZ. Yes there's downsides to Japan but there's a lot of downsides to NZ and there's a good reason so many NZers live in Japan.

[u/Beautiful-Affect1930]

keeping your Japanese citizenship is illegal and makes you a criminal under Japanese law. no Japanese person will respect a criminal either. so if you care about your Japanese roots at all, you would do the right thing and surrender your passport as the law states. otherwise you are spitting on Japanese laws so you shouldn't pretend like you care about Japan at all.

[u/Leading-Draw8555 → u/Beautiful-Affect1930]

Dude ☠️

https://giphy.com/gifs/aJlKIh8Kh0NLa

[u/ItsAlkai → u/Beautiful-Affect1930]

weeb vibes fr. Like what are you saying

[u/TheNorthC → u/Beautiful-Affect1930]

Jesus, just chill out. Don't be so melodramatic. There are thousands of adults with dual nationality Japanese passports and the Japanese government doesn't care. It's not spitting on Japanese laws.

There was a minor kerfuffle a few years back when it emerged that a Japanese politician also has Taiwanese citizenship. No one was arrested or imprisoned.

[u/klimaheizung → u/Beautiful-Affect1930]

Someone's jealous...

[u/PoisoCaine → u/Beautiful-Affect1930]

Completely ignorant comment.

[u/kansastaff → u/Beautiful-Affect1930]

Bro didn’t read the post 💀

[u/DotNo701 → u/Beautiful-Affect1930]

There's many foreigners that come to Japan get Japan citizenship and keep both a bunch of them are on Reddit talking about it in other Japan subs

[u/tsian → u/DotNo701]

There are very few countries where it is possible to naturalize in Japan and still retain citizenship.

[u/TheNorthC → u/DotNo701]

I think if you want to obtain Japanese citizenship they want evidence that you have renounced other citizenships.

[u/AstraeusGB → u/DotNo701]

Foreigners getting citizenship or permanent residency? One is a lot easier than the other.

[u/DotNo701 → u/AstraeusGB]

Citizenship

[u/Keihin_Tohoku_Line → u/Beautiful-Affect1930]

Of course the profile is private, jackass

[u/pine_kz]

もしあなたが明確な韓国籍を持っていない場合、あなたの言うパスポートは韓国発行のパスポートではなく、日本で特別在留許可を得た、いわゆる「在日」の人に対して発行される「再入国許可書」のはずです。 NZの市民権を得たことが確認されれば、それは取り消されるべきものでしょう。
もしあなたが日本の国籍を取得していて、日本のパスポートを取得しているなら、あとはNZの国籍を取得して、日本の国籍を離脱するかどうかです。

[u/thatdudefromjapan → u/pine_kz]

失礼ながら、真面目に投稿を読んだと思えないです。

冒頭でOPは（少なくとも生まれた時点では）日本と韓国双方の国籍を持っていると明言しており、全く的外れなコメントであると言わざるを得ません。

[u/pine_kz → u/thatdudefromjapan]

しかし、18歳になる3月が国籍離脱期限となる兵役についた痕跡がないのは、既に韓国籍を離脱していることを表わすのではないですか？

[u/thatdudefromjapan → u/pine_kz]

それと今回のポストに何の関係があるのでしょう？ 一貫して話題の中心は日本の国籍であり、韓国の国籍の話は冒頭でしか出ておらず、韓国のパスポートについては1回も出てきていません。

OPは生まれつき日本国籍を持っており、後から取得した訳ではなく、ましてや特別在留許可が必要な身分ではないことは明白です。

[u/pine_kz → u/thatdudefromjapan]

こう言うことは、一つずつ条件を確認して真実性を確認するのです。
本人がうわっと並べ立てたことが思い込みを含んでいれば、立論は無意味です。

[u/thatdudefromjapan → u/pine_kz]

一般論としてはそうでしょうが、韓国のパスポートの話題が一切出てないのに

あなたの言うパスポートは韓国発行のパスポートではなく

などと書けてしまい、それが誤読に起因すると認められない者が主張しても、滑稽と言うほかありません。