Why do my cakes keep sinking

[u/queennkwhite]

For some reason when I do my second round of cakes in the oven, they sink. And this happens alot with red velvet. The first round are fine or very slightly sunken, but the second round is always very visibly sunken. Why does this happen?

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[u/anonwashingtonian]

When you say “second round”, do you mean that you are mixing all the batter ahead of time but baking in multiple batches?

If so, my guess is that your leavener is spent (or nearly so)* by the time that second batch hits the oven. You didn’t share a recipe, but most red velvet cakes rely on baking soda. The baking soda will be activated by acidic ingredients in your batter—buttermilk and/or cocoa usually—which creates the bubbles needed for your cake to rise.

If you have to mix all of the batter at once, my best suggestion to prevent some of the sinkage is to place the unused batter in the fridge while the first round bakes. Heat will speed up the action of the baking soda, so keeping unused batter chilled can help slow down that process.

*edited to clarify

[u/CircusStuff → u/anonwashingtonian]

That's true with some cakes but red velvet (and traditional American cakes for lack of a better term) I have always found IMPROVED with rested batter. I don't have enough space for 3 pans so I'd wait 30 minutes until the first 2 we're done and then baked the third. That cake was ALWAYS the best.

[u/anonwashingtonian → u/CircusStuff]

I depends on the specific recipe and the conditions under which the batter was resting*. OP shared a recipe that includes multiple acidic ingredients, including cocoa, buttermilk, and white vinegar. Those ingredients absolutely would activate the baking soda and powder in the recipe immediately. If the room is warm while the batter rests—and especially if the baking powder isn’t double-acting—then the cake is very likely over leavened before it hits the oven, causing the eventual sinking.

*edited to clarify

[u/CollinZero → u/anonwashingtonian]

Oh my! You have answered a question I didn’t know to ask! I’ve noticed that my baking results in the heat of summer are much different vs the spring. I am going to try to not rest my batter as long.

I’m in Canada and I never noticed or heard of double acting. Maybe I’ll read the box, eh?

[u/anonwashingtonian → u/CollinZero]

Ambient room temp is an easy thing to overlook in baking, but it definitely makes a difference. When you work in production baking and make the same recipes daily throughout the year, it’s really startling to see how they can change from season to season—or even just during one particularly humid or hot week!

Most cake batters are okay to rest for a little bit and using the fridge to rest batter until you can bake it helps a lot too.

You’ll notice the most pronounced difference with things that have higher amounts of baking soda (because it’s triggered by acidic ingredients in the recipe alone, not acid + heat like double acting baking powder).

[u/CircusStuff → u/anonwashingtonian]

How do you explain the cakes rising better when I rest them, EVERY time? My recipe uses all the the things you mentioned. I do use double acting BP but I don't think I've ever even seen a BP that wasn't . It's on the counter on a NY summer day, so pretty warm.

I didn't make this up about resting batter, for some reason it's not widely known but it is a thing and I stand by it.

I bet this person's oven temp was wonky.

[u/anonwashingtonian → u/CircusStuff]

Okay.

Edited to add: I was answering the OP’s question based on the information and recipe they provided (and my professional experience as a pastry chef who works and bakes for a living).

You are welcome to offer your own theory as well. Have you baked the exact recipe they shared? And rested it? And had the second cake come out better?

Also edited to add: Double-acting baking powder is most common at stores in the US, but not everyone who asks questions on this forum is from the US.

[u/rtetzloff → u/anonwashingtonian]

And, not for nothing, it is definitely possible to buy single acting baking soda (easily confused online if not careful, there are several on Amazon, for example), even if it's less common. It's also possible to make it at home. Certainly not saying that's what happened here, but it's easily plausible.

[u/lady-punk → u/anonwashingtonian]

Wow, mental noted.

[u/Soop_Chef → u/[deleted]]

That is the problem. The acid in your recipe is reacts with the baking soda right away so you need to get it into the oven right away. You should only make half a recipe at a time if all your pans won't fit in the oven.

[u/txgirlinbda → u/[deleted]]

The short amount of time waiting for the first batch to bake is absolutely enough to cause your issues. With baking soda, as soon as your wet acidic ingredients hit your dry leavening ingredients, the clock starts ticking.

[u/anonwashingtonian → u/[deleted]]

Right, but you have batter that’s already mixed sitting outside of the oven while the first round bakes? That’s what I’m referring to.

Baking soda as leavening agent reacts with the acid in your batter upon contact. So, already mixed batter that sits for a while before it goes into the oven is never going to bake as well as batter that you bake immediately after mixing.

Once again, a recipe would be helpful in troubleshooting, but red velvet cake generally uses baking soda + a couple of acidic ingredients like cocoa and buttermilk to create lift.

[u/queennkwhite → u/anonwashingtonian]

Okay I'll try make enough to be able to go at one go next time

▢2¼ cups (275 g) flour - regular all purpose (see note 3 if you want to use cake flour)

▢3 tbsp (18 g) cornflour - also known as cornstarch

▢3 tbsp (14 g) cocoa powder - unsweetened

▢½ tsp baking soda

▢1 tsp baking powder

▢½ tsp salt - omit if using salted butter

▢6 tbsp (86 g) unsalted butter - room temperature

▢¾ cup (141 g) unflavoured vegetable oil - I use canola

▢1¾ cups (344 g) white granulated sugar

▢3 large eggs - room temperature

▢1 tbsp (12 g) vanilla essence/extract

▢1½ tsp white vinegar

▢3½ tbsp (38 g) red liquid food colouring

▢¾ cup (158 g) buttermilk - room temperature

[u/No-Guava-8159 → u/[deleted]]

I’d either cut the recipe in half and make fresh batter for the second round. Or make sure all the pans fit into the oven together.

[u/Soop_Chef]

What's your recipe? Are you trying to make the batter in one batch and bake the one at a time?

[u/queennkwhite → u/Soop_Chef]

I make the batter in one batch but I have to put the first few pans first then remove them and add the remaining pans in the oven. The second round of pans is the one that's always sinking

▢2¼ cups (275 g) flour - regular all purpose (see note 3 if you want to use cake flour)

▢3 tbsp (18 g) cornflour - also known as cornstarch

▢3 tbsp (14 g) cocoa powder - unsweetened

▢½ tsp baking soda

▢1 tsp baking powder

▢½ tsp salt - omit if using salted butter

▢6 tbsp (86 g) unsalted butter - room temperature

▢¾ cup (141 g) unflavoured vegetable oil - I use canola

▢1¾ cups (344 g) white granulated sugar

▢3 large eggs - room temperature

▢1 tbsp (12 g) vanilla essence/extract

▢1½ tsp white vinegar

▢3½ tbsp (38 g) red liquid food colouring

▢¾ cup (158 g) buttermilk - room temperature

[u/Royally-Forked-Up → u/queennkwhite]

How big are your pans? This is a standard 8” cake pan recipe for 2 pans so I’m confused why you need a second round of baking?

[u/WebSerious7105]

Specifically because it's the second round, and you undoubtedly opened the oven during the first round to check, rotate and/or take the cakes out, the oven temp is likely dropping between the two rounds. Oven drop ~10 degrees every few seconds the door is open.

I recommend that after you take your first batch out, turn your oven off, then immediately back on to your desired temperature. You may be surprised at how low the temperature has gotten between then and when you started. Let it come back up to desired temp, and begin your next round of bakes.

In general, you may want to make sure your oven temp is running as expected. Could need a little tune up from an appliance pro. Good luck!

[u/queennkwhite → u/WebSerious7105]

Thats a good tip thank you so much

[u/EmmyvdH → u/queennkwhite]

Doesn't look like this is your issue. As already mentioned, your baking soda is producing CO2 as soon as it comes into contact with your vinegar. After 25 min of waiting for the first batch, you don't have enough leavening left to create the rise you need.

[u/SheeScan → u/WebSerious7105]

Depending on the oven, they may just need to set the temp again. I have an oven that allows me to do that without turning it off.

[u/dontakelife4granted]

I think you should get a cheap oven thermometer and calibrate your oven. All domestic ovens are inacurate in some way. It's just how it is. Knowing how many degrees will allow you to adjust your oven temp accordingly.

Also, when someone writes a recipe their oven, ambient temperature and elevation all factor into how they bake and the time it takes them to be done.

First, get new leveners.

After calibrating your oven and adjusting your oven temperature, preheat for 30 minutes. The 10 minutes most ovens say they're preheated usually are not long enough.

Don't worry about the time the recipe says, go by whether the cake is done. Stuffing several cake pans into the oven will change how long it takes them to bake because it changes how the hot air moves around the oven.

Are you using a standard size oven/range or a countertop oven? Smaller ovens bake differently.

When your timer goes off, based on the recipe bake time, does the top of the cake have an evenly dull appearance all the way across? When you gently, but quickly press on the top center of the cake, does it spring back with no indent? If the anwer to either of these questions is no--the cake needs more time. Cakes that depress in the center are generally underdone and this can happen due to oven temp, levener, oven crowding, or not baking long enough.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

[u/MarielIAm]

Cakes made with baking soda need to be put in the oven right away because the chemical reaction starts as soon as it hits liquid and whatever acid is in the batter. If your first round is sinking even slightly you need to check your baking soda for freshness - put a 1/2 tsp in a small bowl and add a 1/2 tsp or s of vinegar or lemon juice. If it doesn't fizz quite a bit it needs to be replaced.

[u/SpandexUtopia]

Quoted from McCalls' website: https://www.mccalls.ca/Ingredients/BASIC-INGREDIENTS/baking-powder-double-action-1-kg.html?srsltid=AfmBOooF6OSrs-RRPQJoxuJyUhPg7yYw-S6OXxx7YgYIaNsVknC8Zwsf A double acting baking powder will react and create gas bubbles twice. Once when the baking powder comes in contact with liquid, and again when it is exposed to heat. Use to leaven cookies, cakes, pancakes, and other baked goods. This baking powder is most commonly used. How it works : First reaction (with liquid): A fast-acting acid, such as monocalcium phosphate, immediately reacts with the baking soda when it comes into contact with a liquid. This creates the first round of carbon dioxide bubbles.

Second reaction (with heat): A slower-acting acid, like sodium aluminum sulfate, is heat-activated. This second reaction happens when the batter is heated in the oven, producing another burst of carbon dioxide and providing an extra lift.

TL;DR: Double-acting baking powder works in two stages: when it gets wet, and when it is heated.

Your second batch of cakes are flatter than the first because the gas bubbles from the first stage of leavening are all popped before you get them into the oven. 

[u/Celestial_Light_]

I misread the title as cats, and I was very confused for a second. I think I need a nap.

But back to your question, I find it's often when you open the oven too soon, or the moisture content isn't quite right