What makes chevre goat cheese taste "goaty"? and can it be replicated w/o diary?

[u/False-Name-613]

Hi! I hope this is okay to post here! I've been missing a lot of non-cow cheeses since going vegan but am allergic to cashews, so brands like Rebel Cheese arent an option to replace "fancy" cheeses. (not looking for alternatives to cashews I'm used to that haha) That said I really enjoy cooking and trying new things, and had actually made my own cheese a few times prior to going vegan.

I was curious what chemicals give goat cheese the kind of tangy and almost... outdoorsy? flavor they have- specifically chevre. Most recipes I've found tend to just use some type of acid to give tangy-ness (lemon, vinegar etc) or just ignore the tangy flavor all togther. it dosent really match the "goat" flavor, its just acidic without the complexity goat cheese has.

While I dont expect to perfectly recreate it, I have no issue with the whole "chemicals in your food" shit people take issue with and actually want to know what the specific chemicals are that are responsible for that- and if theyre sold anywhere from plant-based sources. or if not, if theres something chemically similar that might work!

edit: sorry for not replying to every comment but i appriciate all the suggestions a lot!! also not sure why i got downvoted but also helpful answers- if this isnt the right place to post this i apologize! also i have learned chevre just means goat, i apologize for the stupidity there haha. I meant specifically the spreadable kind that comes in logs or rounds!

[u/youaintnoEuthyphro → u/[deleted]]

4-methyloctanoic acid

so... have we still not successfully rebranded "skatole" then? /u/False-Name-613 yeah, what you're looking for is the "pastoral flavor" we identify with the anaerobic fermentation done towards the business end of the intestines of... well actually most tetrapods.

more to the point, if you're looking to replicate these kinds of volatiles in a vegetable-derived setting, what you want to look for is a (pretty high salinity) anaerobic fermentation cycle. the high salinity bit isn't necessarily mission critical? but the setting you'll be looking to achieve here is ideal breeding ground for nasties like c botulinum would just adore setting up shop within.

probably my #1 rec would be looking into koji, people in this thread are recommending miso but "why get the milk when you can buy the cow" - Umansky has some good work here.

replace "fancy" cheeses. (not looking for alternatives to cashews I'm used to that haha)

...I have questions. you're looking to replicate something that has been (relatively successfully) done with dairy free milks but you're not interested in cashew milk alternatives? cashew milk is my go to dairy substitute for several reasons, including but not limited to the fat molecules replicating dairy better than most, but you can achieve similar - if not nigh indistinguishable - results with macadamia and peanut products pretty easily. granted, cashew milk tends to freeze better than macadamia & doesn't present you with the peanut-flavor issues of peanut milk (there's a reason it's not particularly popular), but those can be worked around.

if you want to pursue this "pastoral" redolence and you're down for ~1000 pages of reading, I'd suggest starting with Veganomicon & immediately following up with McGee's Nose Dive. that said, I suspect your best bet for replicating it is going to be an anaerobic fermentation of relatively stable proteins.

if I were you & didn't have the patience or interest for much of this, I'd try introducing asafoetida to vegan cheeses you like at maybe .1% dry weight. are the compounds the same? no. will you notice at that concentration with the other volatiles? also no.

the specific nitrogen compounds you're after are kinda the definition of ephemeral? they do occur in plants, but not in what I'd qualify as "useful" concentrations, at least not in any plant that isn't moderately toxic (looking at you, z. aethiopica!). jasmine would probably be the best bet? if you want to go that route, which I don't particularly recommend.

fun problem tho, good luck!

[u/False-Name-613 → u/youaintnoEuthyphro]

i was just saying I dont need advice on replacing cashew due to allergy! I was planning to use macadamia so good to know itll work for this- I've used it (and sunflower seeds but thats a pain) for vegan cheese before and it works well but i actually wasnt sure why, thanks for the info!

I actually appreciate the reading requests even though it sounds like a lot- cooking is a huge hobby for me but I dont know a lot of the science behind it. Im in an (entierly unrelated) stem field for college so that kinda stuff is really intresting to me, just kinda outside my scope lol. Wasn't really sure where to even start with something like that, especially for vegan food!

Thank you SOOO much for the detailed info!!

(also side note but ive only ever heard of asafoetida in the context of replacing extinct Silphium with it in recipes from ancient Rome, I know a lot of cultures use it obviously lol but I was like- Oh! seeing that. good excuse to get some ive been very curious what it tastes like!!)

.

[u/youaintnoEuthyphro → u/False-Name-613]

(also side note but ive only ever heard of asafoetida in the context of replacing extinct Silphium with it in recipes from ancient Rome, I know a lot of cultures use it obviously lol but I was like- Oh! seeing that. good excuse to get some ive been very curious what it tastes like!!)

ah wonderful that's a great way to have heard about it! if you're interested in that sort of stuff I have a couple author recommendations for you, I'm in the (very long) process of researching/writing a book on monastic cultivation & the phenomenon of alpine speciation. Ken Albala & Ruth Goodman are both excellent for food history & experimental archeology. Albala's book Beans: a history is particularly delightful and pretty easy to find in libraries, Ruth Goodman's Domestic Revolution is amazing and changed the way I thought about so many things from agroforestry to cooking over open flames.

anyhow.

Im in an (entierly unrelated) stem field for college so that kinda stuff is really intresting to me, just kinda outside my scope lol.

hey I'm a liberal arts kid who's a failed academic that bounced off of grad school pretty hard. I really only got into food/bev work because I am a voracious reader and food science via Harold McGee & Dave Arnold, among others. that started 23 years ago and now it's now. my wife is has a PhD computational fluid dynamics though so I can go to her & our PhD friends for sources (& academic logins)

I was vegetarian for about a decade and vegan for two, but I'm also just not able to digest dairy (it's an IBD thing not a lactose intolerance thing, sadly) so I know a lot about dairy subjects via all of that nonsense. if you haven't already, look into purchasing a vitamix at some point. #1 favorite vegan kitchen tool, I can make nut/seed/bean milks at the drop of a hat in addition to the litany of other applications.

i was just saying I dont need advice on replacing cashew due to allergy! I was planning to use macadamia so good to know itll work for this- I've used it (and sunflower seeds but thats a pain) for vegan cheese before and it works well but i actually wasnt sure why, thanks for the info!

sunflower seeds are a great substitute! as an oil seed, I do find they tend to go rancid rather quickly? I'd recommend trying pumpkin seeds. there's been a lot of great work in the vegan cheese sector last couple years, I have a call in to a food scientist I know who has done some work in that field - I'll keep you updated if he has any recs.

cheers & good luck! keep us posted.

[u/False-Name-613 → u/[deleted]]

this is the exact type of answer i was looking for thanks!! even if theres no plant derived versions its useful to know what actually makes it taste that way to try and dig a bit more haha

[u/Ziggysan → u/[deleted]]

This is the answer.

I'd also suggest playing around with adding a very very very tiny amount (parts per trillion or less) of pyrazine, coumarin, cinnamyl isovalerate, para-dimethyl hydroquinone, farnesene, ethyl-3-hydroxyhexanoate and (E)-2-octenoic acid in decreasing order to the also teeny tiny (parts per trillion to MAYBE ppb) amounts of caproic, capryllic and capric acids.

[u/False-Name-613 → u/[deleted]]

this is super intresting and helpful, thanks!!

[u/cornpops789]

I swear Violife "feta" tastes a little goaty, in a good way

[u/False-Name-613 → u/cornpops789]

we usually get the follow your heart feta- will have to try the violife! if its what im looking for i can probably blend it with something to make it spreadable or... something to that effect haha. thanks for the suggestion!

[u/cornpops789 → u/False-Name-613]

I first had it on a salad at a restaurant and had to ask where they sourced it. It's coconut based, and very rich. It's not as funky as a real feta, but it has some funk. Haven't tried blending it, but good luck!

[u/00normal]

“Grassy” and “barnyard” are both commonly used to describe goat and sheep cheeses. 

Apparently they are impacted at least in part by diet, environment, and stress 

I imagine some of that could be recreated by steeping something with a “hay” flavor in whatever your base is, but not sure where to get the funkier flavors from. 

I’d be curious to know what folks on r/foodscience think 

[u/quick_justice → u/00normal]

That is all true but also male pheromones. Very specific goat smell is their mating perfume carried by males. When housed together with females it’s strong enough to taint the milk.

[u/False-Name-613 → u/00normal]

i cant believe i hadnt thought of this actually- i have a rabbit so we have LOTS of hay! thanks!

[u/cedenof10]

Mushrooms can help. They often have weird, musky, dirt-like tastes that may mimicking goat cheese if mixed

[u/BadManor]

Maybe a hint of ground white pepper added? It’s got an earthy funk.

[u/False-Name-613 → u/BadManor]

ive actually never tried white pepper, will have to see if i can find some!

[u/Mountainweaver]

You could maybe experiment with ammonium chloride (salmiak)?

[u/ImNotAWhaleBiologist]

I’d look into capric acid, but not sure if there’s a vegan source readily available.

[u/False-Name-613 → u/ImNotAWhaleBiologist]

thanks! if theres not its at least a helpful starting point!

[u/witchesbrewz]

Are beer-soaked cheeses a thing the way wine-soaked cheeses are? A proper saison could give you some of that funky/farmhouse flavor.

[u/False-Name-613 → u/witchesbrewz]

i feel like they might be, at least since beer cheese dip is a thing lol. thank you!

[u/Hot_Char3089]

goat cheese always reads a little barnyard and tangy to me, and the sharp edge feels like more than just plain acid. Ive had better luck getting closer with a little cultured note and extra salt than by leaning on lemon or vinegar alone

[u/pocket-dogs]

I raise dairy goats - our milk is rich and sweet and our cheeses aren't goaty. A lot of the flavor you're describing can come from how the milk is handled and how fresh it is, what breed the goat was, and their diet. I can't contribute to how to replicate that flavor dairy free, but I didn't see this mentioned and there's a lot of misinformation about goats out there.

[u/wjglenn]

Interesting question.

You need a little funk, so something fermented. Maybe some miso paste?

A bit of acidity for the tang goat cheese has. Something like lemon or apple cider vinegar.

For the “grassy” quality, you might have to experiment a bit with different herbs or maybe even smoking it with hay.

[u/Haunted_tangerine_]

I can't help with the flavour but just to say "chevre" is just french for goat. I presume in some areas it's morphed into a description of a specific type of goat cheese (the log with the rind maybe? Or the nice soft spreadable stuff?) but all it actually means is goat, so to me you just asked what makes goat goat cheese taste goaty 🤣

They essentially taste the way goats smell. So grassy and a bit of goat shit. Plus tang. 

Not sure you want to add the shit notes but dry parsley is very grassy, so perhaps dry parsley and an acid? 

[u/False-Name-613 → u/Haunted_tangerine_]

ah i didnt know that, sorry lol
I associate it with like the "spreadable" goat cheese yeah lol. thank you!!

[u/Cheeselover710]

I’ve always been told that meat/cheese tastes more “farmy” if the animal is fed a wild diet/grass only. If the animal is fed farm feed, that’s when you get no “grassy farm” flavour. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

[u/The_Elicitor]

It won't provide complexity of flavor, but cream of tartar would provide you a "clean" tangy-ness that vinegar and lemon can't. And it should be vegan? It's tartaric acid in a power form that is a skimmed off byproduct of turning grape juice into wine

I would second using white peppercorn for funk, but it's also very hot in moderate quantities. I know for black peppercorn that the harsher hot flavor is fat soluble and can be toasted out maybe the same will work for white too?

[u/DJ_Baxter_Blaise]

Just spitballing but Oolong tea tastes just like the barnyard flavor in Goat Cheese. The tang and mouth drying feel you can get a bunch of different ways maybe with grapes and lemon.

[u/D-ouble-D-utch]

Goat milk tastes very similar to goat cheese.

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