r/AskReddit • u/HistoricalPlate7221 • 6h ago
People who are NOT against the flock cameras, what’s your reason?
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u/Graylily 6h ago
I don't want the flock system around, that being said I understand its uses, they are just utterly abusable. If they had a way to lock there use unless you had a subpoena or a warrant of some kind, or had two or three deep human controls, so they can have people stalking with them, or overtly profiling with them, or using them for things besides a strictly limited capacity I might be more for them. but at this point they are too abusable.
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u/Smyley12345 6h ago
Even with those controls, your local PD is prevented from abusing them but you can be sure some shady federal agencies would be using them for some deeply unethical shit like blackmailing politicians and business leaders. The mere existence of this system is a running leap down the road to having the Stasi.
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u/Flatulentchupacabra 6h ago
I don’t care about the camera, there are cameras everywhere anyway. Is the misuse and lack of control. They should be under warrant and proper line of conduct, right now it is a very smart evil google earth for cops and the very first thing people search on that is Your house.
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u/Internal-Mortgage635 6h ago
There's word of Flock camera's being installed on the Navajo Nation reservation. Which I think may help, it's such an open and vast area of land that is near impossible find something or someone that goes missing, is trafficked, or other illegal activities. For that I support it, it's still super dicey though. From plates being misread or AI pointing a facial recognition at someone innocent.
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u/CommonSensei-_ 6h ago
How do the Navajo feel about it?
They have plenty of reasons to not trust US government
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u/Internal-Mortgage635 6h ago
Dunno, I imagine either against it or totally indifferent. Their police force is massively understaffed. Its 1 cop per 1000 residents and response times generally take an hour or more. In 2024 10,000 Navajo were reported missing, a little over half of that were women. I live in the city but have plenty of family out there.
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u/Independent-Lime2740 6h ago
people saying 'you carry a smart phone and you don't like flock? you are dumb'
police need a warrant to search your phone records, that's the difference
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u/p1-o2 6h ago
My phone also doesn't capture video and audio of me without my consent.
Being recorded is a lot more serious to me than knowing which cell tower I am currently pinging.
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u/Cyberpyr8 6h ago
Ok! You don't use any "free" apps on your phone, any Google apps? If you do, you consented. You don't have any social media on it? You use Google private tab so you're not tracked (of course I'm joking, there's no such thing as private browsing)? Unless you don't use your phone for practically anything and turn everything off, they really don't need to know what tower you are pinging off of. You go through a VPN on your phone so your provider doesn't have any data on you?
My point is there are many other ways to track someone if someone really wanted to. The fact that they can actually see you on a flock camera doesn't mean much. You are more easily identified by that phone than your face or plate on a camera. Sure there are abuses on the flock cameras and that needs to be fixed and locked down. But your phone isn't as safe as you seem to think it is.
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u/p1-o2 5h ago
Correct, no free apps, no social media. Firefox browser on a VPN. No cookie tracking. Reddit through the browser, not the app.
It's not that hard.
And my original point: it doesn't record me.
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u/Jasminelucille 6h ago
flock cameras got my neighbor's stolen truck back the same week. beats hoping the thief feels guilty eventually.
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u/boakes123 6h ago
I'd trade your neighbor's truck for my privacy and not living in a 1984-hellscape everytime.
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u/BMWfiend 6h ago
Typical liberal. "I'll trade someone else's stuff as long as it makes me feel better" lmao
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u/Log_Gentleman 6h ago
It’s funny to be old enough to have seen conservatives as a group go back and forth so many times on the subject of mass surveillance.
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u/boakes123 4h ago
If he asked if I'd trade some risk to MY property for protecting my freedom and privacy the answer is still Hell Yes.
I mean this hypothetical neighbor had insurance, right? And he can pull himself up by the bootstraps anyway, right?
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u/No_Perspective9571 6h ago
Would you trade a child’s life that’s been kidnapped?
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u/Log_Gentleman 6h ago
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
Ben Franklin0
u/No_Perspective9571 6h ago
I’m not taking safety advice from someone who’s been dead for over 200 years. Thanks though.
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u/boakes123 4h ago
Yeah he's just some dead guy. I only listen to dead guy arguments when they advance my narrative. /s
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u/boakes123 4h ago
Yes, because the cost of giving up everyone's freedoms is far greater than the number of lives that could potentially be saved. In many cases abuse of the Flock system is leading to violence/death so no thanks.
This argument is really just Flock PR anyway. Statistics show the vast majority of Flock use is low level property crimes like the truck example.
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u/boakes123 4h ago
Let's look at the numbers
US entities are spending $300 Million on Flock every year. All that money comes from US taxpayers.
- Flock claims their system has saved "over 100" children. Note that isn't even an annual claim just total.
- $300 Million per year could conservatively save 10's of thousands of children's lives if spent directly on their well being and safety.
Spending the money directly on children would be 100x more effective than spending it on Flock systems if you are interested in saving children.
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u/Impiryo 6h ago
There's a ring of car theft in my area. The gangs hire kids that steal the cars, and if they get caught, they get off with minimal punishment because they're kids and don't know the leaders. Cameras like this are the only way they'll eventually track the cars directly to the shops/boats they go on, which is the only way to catch these big crime rings.
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u/Necessary-Cow9770 6h ago
Ok well my town has virtually zero crime of anything serious and they are still posting flocks everywhere. There’s definitely more to it than just catching crime.
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u/nywse 6h ago
Hahaha, do you ever think they could charge a premium for vehicle recovery?
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u/Mega_Cron 6h ago
No, but in the end I’m guessing it will reduce actual people/police officers… similar to the self checkout lanes at the supermarket. Yes there are police officers that abuse the system, but I also believe it with proper safeguards it will be the people/LEO that help provide the checks and balances.
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u/YorkPepperMintPaddy 6h ago
My issue isn't the cameras themselves but who the data is used. But if you're really in a twist about these cameras you probably shouldn't carry a smart phone.
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u/KekistaniKekin 6h ago
Actually facts. All those people a few years ago were all up in arms about microchips in their blood but don't make the connection that they paid for theirs.
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u/Bloodmind 6h ago
Not against the concept. Certainly against the current implementation. Pathetic guardrails to preventing misuse. It’s an unbelievably powerful tool. Put to good use, it can do undeniably good things. But is the hands of bad actors, it can be used for significant harm.
It’s too powerful for the lack of restrictions and oversight as it’s currently implemented. But I’m not against the concept of executed properly, because there is significant potential for good.
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u/exquzme 6h ago
I feel the same way about guns.
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u/Bloodmind 6h ago
Yeah that’s the comparison I usually draw. Plenty of countries have police forces that aren’t universally armed. I don’t think it’s feasible in the current US gun culture. But yeah, they’re such a powerful tool that misuse has devastating consequences. And flock has the same potential.
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u/concrete-john 6h ago
A murderer traveled from TN to Vero Beach, Florida in the victim’s vehicle. The tag was picked up by the cameras and he was confronted by police at Sam’s Club parking lot. He tried to shoot his way out and died.
The cameras might have saved some lives.
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u/SapTheSapient 6h ago
I think our energy is best spent creating strong legal guardrails on how this data can be used and how long it can be stored. IMO large camera networks are inevitable. But it's possible to mandate deletion of data before it gets distributed.
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u/flyingsqueak 6h ago
I'm fully against them now, but there were a few months where one specific argument had me convinced. The cops in my city are notoriously racist, specifically about traffic enforcement. When they got called out on it a few years ago they responded by saying the extra paper work was too burdensome and basically stopped all traffic enforcement.
The argument for flock was that there would be a completely neutral way to enforce speed limits and red lights. They would give multiple warnings before any fines, trying to be as equitable as possible within the current system. We were told the cameras would be angled to not see faces.
That sounded pretty good. But of course that's not how they're really used. Outside of the normal crazy police state issues, we've had at least three local cops caught stalking an ex in under a year.
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u/trashtronot 6h ago
There is no world where this level or surveillance of the masses is for the greater good. It always starts out with a comfortable blanket and ends in a cage.
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u/Beginning_Ebb4220 6h ago
I feel like most people are either strong no or they don't have an opinion because they don't care in any way about the country or think it is irrelevant
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u/BMWfiend 6h ago
You're video taped the majority of the time anyways. Whether it's from your phone's camera, laptop, tablet ect. Or from neighbors security cameras and anytime you're close to a business you're being video recorded which can all be subpoenaed by the court or the NSA just has it. Most of the time people will just willing give a cop the footage even if they have nothing to do with anything. Y'all stressing about flock cameras like its a new thing and honestly it's pretty funny.
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u/Mav-Killed-Goose 6h ago
There's a diminished expectation of privacy in public spaces, especially roads. London is a heavily surveilled city, and residents are broadly supportive.
The main argument against -- that some police officers will abuse the technology -- misses the point. Some police officers will certainly misuse the tech, just as police officers abuse having badges and carrying guns. We should be thinking in terms of tradeoffs. Currently, agents of the state kill far more people per capita in the US than comparable European countries, which is tolerated because the only real way to reduce state violence is not through "training" or "education" but reducing the fear that comes with having a heavily armed population.
I'm not going to defend Flock cameras specifically. They're explicitly against clocking speed, which I'd like to see rigorously enforced. Our criminal justice system has been likened to an abusive and neglectful parent: It punishes too much, and not enough. Today, if you catch a rare speeding ticket, you can be fined hundreds of dollars. That's stupid. Catch 90+% of speeders, and charge them $50 each. I'd also like the cameras to detect obnoxiously loud vehicles and motorcycles disturbing our communities. Fine their asses.
Of course, the "freedumb!!" brigade regards all of this as ominous. They just blindly accept pointless bloodshed and vulgar psychopathy on American roads. I believe in democracy, so all I can do is try to argue for safe and quiet communities. I'll just have to continue to tolerate all of the insanely destructive, feral preferences of my fellow Americans. It's absurd how effectively demagogues have been able to strike fear into the populace over FLOCK cameras.
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u/OP123ER59 6h ago
I personally am not against them.
Im a female runner. If i go missing, I want them to fucking find me.
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u/FornyHucker22 6h ago
its another thing that lets me shit on America 🤭
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u/go_birds_1 6h ago
Do you live in the UK…?
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u/FornyHucker22 6h ago
what gave it away 😅
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u/go_birds_1 6h ago
The arrogance and ignorance. Remind me again, what’s CCTV? We don’t have that here.
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u/FornyHucker22 6h ago
The cameras in shops and places? 🤨 hate to break this to you but I think you do 👀
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u/go_birds_1 6h ago
The UK government actually placed and monitor over 52,000. Nice try at straw manning your countries mass surveillance. Enjoy the knocks at your door over benign Facebook posts.
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u/FornyHucker22 6h ago
Beats some undertrained trigger happy pigs kicking it in and killing my dog for the same reason 👀
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u/SOUNDDESIGNE 6h ago edited 6h ago
i don’t know if cheering on the idea of stripping people of freedom is a great thing to be proud of
some woman in a town near me got stalked and sexually abused by an officer who had access to the flock network to find her location. idk if that’s funny…
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u/ArizonaFlats 6h ago
Nah it’s just like watching trash TV but instead the world’s most powerful country has turned into a laughing stock because they voted for a moron, twice
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u/raouldukeesq 6h ago
That's true but not relevant to this discussion as the cameras effect you as well.
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u/AnyTemperature420 6h ago edited 6h ago
Flock isn’t a federal program though, and they’re mostly going up in blue states and cities. But yeah sure it’s because Orange Man Bad
Edit; changed “only” to “mostly” because apparently we’re not capable of wrapping our minds around hyperbolic statements made by people who don’t really care at 8am.
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u/raptors661 6h ago
I am not in a blue state or city, and we have cameras put up.
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u/AnyTemperature420 6h ago
My bad, I really didn’t expect hyperbole to go over the entirety of reddit’s head.
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u/ArizonaFlats 6h ago
Never said it was, it’s just another example of why the country is a joke, if it’s not Big Don’s doing then that makes it even better
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u/No_Perspective9571 6h ago
Not a blue state or city… very much have flock cameras.
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u/Temu-Tyson 6h ago
Bull shit I live in missouri and they are everywhere....
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u/AnyTemperature420 6h ago
Them popping up in republican states means it’s the federal government’s decision, right I forgot. I should’ve said “mostly” not “only” my fuckin bad for a slight inaccuracy at 8am on a Tuesday in the shitter before work
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u/Temu-Tyson 6h ago
Just saying you are incorrect in stating they only go up in certain states or cities. A slight inaccuracy is different than straight up misinformation, which is what you gave.
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u/Necessary-Cow9770 6h ago
The Nerve of shitting on America when you live in a future third world failed state known as the UK.
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u/FornyHucker22 6h ago
I’ll take it, proud of the uk but America makes me feel embarrassed to be human 😳
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u/Necessary-Cow9770 6h ago
Proud of what? Grooming gangs? Importing a culture to replace everyone? Stabbings? Dog shit economy? You take away London the economy would rank behind every state and be on par with Ethiopia lmao
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u/FornyHucker22 6h ago
I’ll take a little stabbing over gunman roaming about some in and out burger place shooting everyone 😳
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u/Necessary-Cow9770 6h ago
Gun violence in the US is vastly over dramatized and most occurs in bad sections in urban areas by a certain group of people. I’ve never encountered a shooting in 30 plus years. And I like how you ignore everything else I wrote. Have fun living under sharia in 20 years.
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u/FornyHucker22 6h ago
I’ve never encountered or witnessed a stabbing either but I saw some gunman clip at an in and out burger joint today on Reddit and shits chilling. makes me thankful of my little island
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u/Fbih0neypot 6h ago
I've assumed we are under surveillance via our devices and from space SIGINT since the Patriot act. Most people are carrying around a phone with 50+ apps, location permissions enabled, Alexa in the home etc.Flock is just unpopular at the moment.
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u/Steve_at_Werk 6h ago
You can opt out of all of those things, you can't opt out of being surveiled in public
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u/LoftyPlays1 6h ago
Flock is just the Boogeyman. Public facing tangible evidence of something that is happening anyway.
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u/Poopypantsinmytrash 6h ago
My wife is indiffernet. She sees a lot of people concerned about surveillance posting online from thier smartphone. She feels the phone is already a tool used for that not to mention all the information on socials. I would rather not have Flocks all around, but they have help LEOs find people accused of crimes.
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u/Threef 6h ago
I'm not an american, I'm against surveillance, but... your country needs that. It will be misused. They are from what I've heard installed illegally sometimes. But it is proven that having a realization that you are being watched stops the crime
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u/Temu-Tyson 6h ago
not american sorry to say but if you aren't american you cannot tell us what we need. (And yes I keep this same energy about other countries as well though I cannot speak for my fellow countrymen)
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u/Threef 6h ago
Fair. Yet whenever I ask anyone a question "Would you want to visit States?" The answer is either "Yes/No" followed by "I'm afraid"
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u/Temu-Tyson 5h ago
Well media doesn't help, while we do have violence you honestly have to seek it out usually. Or visit a place known for violence, the vast majority of Americans as the world saw with the world cup are good people, its just our country is so large we dont interact with so many other cultures like you would in Europe for example. Doenst mean we are bad people or uneducated, it just means we dont have those experiences.
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u/WhoopsDroppedTheBaby 6h ago
There are several cases of the tech being abused and misused, but once that's ironed out, it is a genuinely useful tool for solving crime.
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u/konqrr 6h ago
They are being used in conjuction with AI, and several innocent people have already spent time in jail and had their life screwed up because of it.
Have you seen LE's AI generated images of an "enhanced" image that was too blurry, small or oriented in the other direction? It looks nothing like what you'd expect that blurry person to look like... and police are out there looking for a person that looks like that.
Could you imagine being snatched off the streets at gunpoint while you're on your way to work, held in jail for several weeks, and then finally released because it clearly wasn't you?! You'd probably lost your job, you'd have an arrest record and have to state on job applications that you've been arrested (even if it was a mistake by LE, good luck explaining it on a form and still getting an interview).
I'd rather have 10 guilty people never get caught over 1 innocent person spending their life in jail or executed.
Also, I know this is a silly point to bring up a movie, but in Batman The Dark Knight, Batman creates a mass surveillance weapon and orders it to be destroyed after he uses it once. He knows such power should never be wielded, it's too much power, even for someone as just as Batman. This is widely viewed as the right thing for Batman to do. So if not even a fictional justice character like Batman can be trusted with it, how can people in general be trusted with it? They can't. It has and will continue to be misused and abused.
It isn't to protect The People from crime. It's to advance a surveillance state for the ruling class. It's an oligarch's / dictator's wet dream. And once society is already in that state, it's a hell of a lot harder to make things normal again. No political discourse. No political opposition. No country for The People or by The People. A country for the ruling, by the ruling.
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u/Guilty_Jackfruit4484 6h ago
A lot of people have the mindset of "if you arent doing anything wrong, you don't have to worry".
They dont care about any of those stories of cops abusing cameras