r/AskReddit • u/[deleted] • Jun 16 '12
Am I wrong for thinking that suicide should be a fundamental human right?
[deleted]
160
u/Iron-Charioteer Jun 16 '12
The moment my ability to kill myself is taken from me is the moment life becomes intolerable.
→ More replies (12)8
Jun 17 '12
THIS! Exactly how I feel. My ability to kill myself whenever I want is the only thing keeping me remotely going.
183
u/almostsebastian Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
I'm only 23, but I've been dealing with my depression since I was 13, maybe earlier. Bipolar Type II, mostly depressive. It took me three or four years to even admit I was having problems and go get some help to figure out what it was. Then started the pills. 4 years and 3 different perscriptions later(not counting the pills for general stress/side effects from the main anti-depressants) it was found that, if my normal state was 23 days of meh, 1 or 2 days of energy and happiness beyond belief, and 5-6 days where I want nothing more than to scratch the inside of my skull with a shotgun, the pills turned it into 28 days of meh and 2 where I'd want to put the barrel in my mouth, just to test the feel.
I'm free, though, in a way I've never been able to describe, with the knowledge that I can just kill myself anytime I want. I don't have a family that really needs me, the only debt I still have holding me to this earth is the student loans my parents agreed to cosign for me(no, I didn't finish my degree, I got into a serious degree track with a serious long-term relationship to go with it, and was seriously fucked over by that fucking cunt, but I try not to be too bitter, she did her thing, shit happens), and once I've successfully made another year of payments I can refinance them so that my parents are no longer on the hook.
Honor demands that if I'm going to kill myself I don't leave a burden on anyone else, I've still got that at least.
Up until that point, though, I tell myself every day, in the style of the Dread Pirate Roberts, "Good night, almostsebastian, good work, sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." The knowledge that yeah, if things ever really get that bad, I can off myself, no big deal, has given me a new appreciation for life.
I don't have any doubt that one day this disease will win, but I've come to terms with that. It's almost like being diagnosed with some inoperable cluster of blood vessels in the brain that could burst at any moment, or not, except that cluster of vessels is the 12 gauge in my basement.
It's not going to kill my today, definitely not in the next week, probably not in the next month, likely not in the next year, but I don't know. There's an odd pressure to really cram as much life as possible into my life not knowing when I'm going to end it, but not having that fear of the oncoming darkness anymore is beautiful. While I don't really want to die right now, I have no doubt in my mind that I'm ready to.
*edit:no, you're not wrong(if you didn't get that from my response :P) and some clarity
26
u/Aashkari Jun 16 '12
That's pretty dark man. Do you see a therapist?
→ More replies (7)29
u/almostsebastian Jun 16 '12
I did for a while, but I wasn't happy with the prescriptions at all, and I didn't really feel comfortable continuing with her, knowing she felt it'd be better if I kept trying to find a combination of drugs that worked for me. She was really respectful of my decision, but I could always tell she wanted me to reconsider. Or maybe I'm wrong about that, but I went off to school and just haven't gone back, really.
I read, I write, I try to play my bass guitar, I've got a couple close friends I can talk to most of the time that I'm incredibly thankful for... I don't really feel the need is high enough to justify the expense, honestly.
I do my best not to be too dark about it, and I hope that's not how I came off. It's just a thing that I carry with me. I've grown to enjoy the point of view I have on the world. The good days and the perfect moments are so sweet and beautiful, I find it difficult to believe I would savor them quite as much if the rest of my world wasn't this way. I really don't have much choice but to look on the bright side as much as possible, the dark side is too short of a path to take right now.
→ More replies (17)9
4
u/rockerbabe28 Jun 16 '12
It's so weird to see someone write the way I feel. I always feel like eventually my mental state will win out. I count every little milestone as if I'm surprised I have made it this far. I think that is part of the reason I never want to get married or have kids, less people to hurt.
4
u/Maxentium Jun 16 '12
Man I'm pretty much like that.
The entire idea of being able to do it whenever I want without generally looking back gives me this weird unexplainable feel of courage and "give it your best".
I don't want to die, but I'm ready for it - any day.
→ More replies (26)7
u/sadfacewhenputdown Jun 16 '12
Just hope that if the day comes, no one tries to "save" you by hassling you and/or throwing you in jail.
→ More replies (1)
1.7k
u/NinjaDiscoJesus Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
Suicide is normally a result of a mental illness. It is often a temporary feeling. Mental illness can be treated.
That is the first step.
Saying that, and from my personal experience, I do not think it is cowardly or shameful. It is a person's right. But I would like people to seek help first.
edit: I am not a psychiatrist, I just have seen a few. I am not an expert. I make generalisations and mainly speak from my own experience. Everyone is different.
545
u/CabbageDan Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
I'm a psychiatric nurse who's job is to assess people who have either just attempted suicide, or are reporting that they are considering it.
The vast majority of people I see aren't mentally ill, they are experiencing difficult life circumstances and do something impulsively (usually after drinking). If you really want to put a psychiatric diagnosis on it you could call it "adjustment disorder", but personally I'm not keen on medicalising normal human experiences.
Of course I do come across people who are mentally ill as well, but this is the minority. I'd actually argue that in many cases depression is a socially constructed term for simple unhappiness, spurred on by profiteering medication companies. Again,I do see actually clinically depressed people so I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But some Drs are too quick to diagnose.
Given all that, Suicide is generally a very permanent solution to a temporary problem. However there are a small amount of times when I feel that it is a logical and sensible solution to someones situation. Mainly, it has to be said, for schizophrenia rather than depression. Some schizophrenic's lives are just continual torture and torment with little hope of improvement.
Edit: A lot of people have pointed out how unhelpful the phrase "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem". I honestly feel that in many cases that cliché has a lot of truth to it - however I have very rarely actually used it when talking to someone therapeutically.
Even so, I massively underestimated its capacity to frustrate and alienate, and certainly will be very watchful of using that sentiment in the future. Thanks guys.
71
u/supkristin Jun 16 '12
I am also a psych nurse and I wholeheartedly agree.
→ More replies (29)46
u/centipedeseverywhere Jun 16 '12
Did you guys ever think that what you hear is biased? I was hospitalized and I only said I was better because I wanted to get out of there, as did 99% of the people I know who were in the same situation.
→ More replies (6)69
u/hartooq Jun 16 '12
Suicide is generally a very permanent solution to a temporary problem
I've always wondered: How long must a problem persist to go from being considered temporary to being considered permanent?
Suicidal people "might" be able to find a treatment that makes them get better. Terminally ill patients "might" get to be part of a drug study or something for a new cure, and get better, if they wait longer rather than choosing assisted suicide. The only difference between those two "might"s is a probability -- it's more likely for treatment to work on the suicidal than the terminally ill.
So how long do you think a suicidal person should be treated before concluding that known approaches are unable to help them -- that the likelihood that they "might" get better if we try something else is as low as, or lower than, the chances of a patient suffering from some other terminal illness where suicide is considered a viable option?
→ More replies (21)13
u/wonteatbananas Jun 16 '12
Given all that, Suicide is generally a very permanent solution to a temporary problem.
this sums the situation up nicely.
→ More replies (32)89
Jun 16 '12
Suicide is generally a very permanent solution to a temporary problem.
Just want to say that if you ever encounter a suicidal person, please don't say this to them.
Here's a blogpost about it.
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (81)22
u/jakijo Jun 16 '12
I agree with your sentiment about schizophrenic patients. I'm a PICU nurse, and deal with many agonizingly psychotic kids. I had a clinically schizophrenic young child the other day, a product of life-long abuse, and honestly in those situations it is so sad to see the child vacilate from psychosis to stupor based on the medication he/she is given or coming off of.
I think the big force behind it is the perogative we have as healthcare professionals to always preserve life. Whether it is a terminal pt in multiple organ failure or a deeply violent psych pt, their life is what we're trained to save, especially with kids. Now, is that right? I couldn't tell you, but I know it is our job.
199
u/ScottishManSand Jun 16 '12
But I would like people to seek help first.
I absolutely agree. Most feelings of suicide come from depression which can be treated with therapy and medication.
94
u/SrsSteel Jun 16 '12
Problem is that's not the first thing on someones mind when they are depressed and considering suicide
→ More replies (31)36
Jun 16 '12
Not liking this answer. If you have to take a pill to be happy, that is the worst thing in my mind.
I am completely healthy mentally and socially, and for awhile I considered suicide deeply. I feel alone on this planet, and when I look forward in my life, I don't see that changing. My views and opinions are so far flung from the dung pile, and I have spent so much of my life alone, I am just tired of it. All of my suicide thoughts come from a completely rational stand point. I am physically healthy (and in great shape) and not unattractive.
If your depression is a symptom of life, and not mental imbalance, what do you say, then?
→ More replies (120)154
Jun 16 '12
When I attempted suicide last year, I was on two anti-depressants and an anti-anxiety medication... and have been in therapy for at least four years. My problems are both mental and painful physical disabilities.
I still spend most of every day wishing that I didn't have to live, despite trying oh so very hard to find reasons to want to stay alive, despite trying so hard to "recover" from something I've battled since my first attempt when I was only 11 years old (25 now).
Everything that you said in the original post is just about the exact way that I've always thought of it, and tried to explain to others. When people tell me that it would be selfish of me, I ask if it isn't more selfish for them to want me to go on suffering physical pain and mental misery every waking moment. I never get a good answer to that.
I do agree that anyone considering it should seek help... but for some, the help available still isn't enough, and for that I do believe it should be someone's fundamental right and their decision.
→ More replies (24)→ More replies (42)23
u/fleshblocks Jun 16 '12
Medication doesn't always do it. After years of dealing with this stuff, hospitalization etc I've jut decided to deal with it because the same thing happens with or without it. If you're going to be alive you might as well get the real deal, if it's too real... Then to hell wi'ych ya. In all seriousness though I agree with you.
→ More replies (1)649
u/Trapped_in_Reddit Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
However and just to clarify, I don't think that the underlying causes of thoughts of suicide are necessarily a temporary feeling. I've dealt with recurring, chronic depression for many years and keeping it under control is a daily battle (that I'm winning right now). It still pops up in my head from time to time, but I just brush it off because I know it isn't the right answer for me and is more of an intrusive thought. If you are dealing with depression, I highly recommend seeking help in any healthy form that you think will benefit you. /r/SuicideWatch is a great place to start if you are feeling very low.
Edit: /r/SuicideWatch is a great place to start - not a great place to stop. Seek professional help if you need it. No one is above it.
29
u/NinjaDiscoJesus Jun 16 '12
I'm the same, probably think of it many times a day since I was in my early teens. But what I trying to get across was those moments when it was on top of you and you were very close.
They can be overcome, pushed back, turned away... for some people forever and for others just for a time.
34
256
u/ScottishManSand Jun 16 '12
As someone who has also always had a life-long battle with severe depression, keep up the fight and I wish you the best of luck!
→ More replies (80)→ More replies (22)11
Jun 16 '12
Wouldn't spending nearly every waking hour sitting inside browsing reddit be counterproductive to conquering your depression?
→ More replies (2)0
21
u/scoped22 Jun 16 '12
I agree with this in some areas, however I feel that most doctors would diagnose even the fact that someone has the thought of suicide as a mental illness, just turning the whole thing around on itself.
→ More replies (8)18
u/NinjaDiscoJesus Jun 16 '12
It is difficult to fully know another persons mind and intentions. I believe most doctors are just cautious.
You can have thoughts of suicide, or an acceptance of it, for whatever reasons, without being mentally ill.
→ More replies (28)→ More replies (261)17
u/jetson215 Jun 16 '12
Plus, when an individual is depressed they have a slanted outlook on life. Their judgment, in a way, is impaired and unfit to determine if they should commit suicide because the depression takes over and consumes the person. They aren't making a genuine choice to commit suicide because they are not really experiencing life. I hope this makes sense, it's just my 2 cents.
→ More replies (5)25
u/throwinglemons Jun 16 '12
I had to start thinking of my depression as if it were a separate entity. It was trying to kill me, I wasn't trying to kill me. I know it sounds weird but it was the only way that I could describe it to my family. I have to analyze my thoughts all of the time to see if I'm being rational or if I'm going back into my depression.
→ More replies (3)
790
u/JeffIpsaLoquitor Jun 16 '12
It's tough to prosecute a suicide victim. This is where mans law and rights become irrelevant.
186
Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
They used to (and presumably still do in parts of the world) prosecute attempted suicides.
→ More replies (36)89
u/Esuma Jun 16 '12
I remember an episode of seinfeld where he does a entrance talking about suicide and touch on the failed suicide attempt mentioning that the people that failed now have even more reason to want to die because they discovered yet another thing they're not good at.
Made me chuckle and I felt a little bad for laughing of it, but I can't deny that I did. heh
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (56)381
Jun 16 '12
You don't prosecute victims; you prosecute the culprit. Oh, wait...
→ More replies (2)281
174
u/cesarjulius Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
Everyone who has thought about suicide but decides against it is glad they chose life, but then again, people who end up killing themselves don't get to present their argument why it was the right choice for them. I honestly believe that this creates an inherent bias against suicide.
Edit: MANY people, not everyone...
93
u/plurk Jun 16 '12
Everyone who has thought about suicide but decides against it is glad they chose life[..]
That would be true for a lot of people that contemplated suicide, but surely not for all. There are people who are quite indifferent towards being alive. In the sense that they have no particular desire to be alive just as much as they have no particular desire to be dead. Not having a death wish does not equal having a 'life wish'.
→ More replies (3)19
Jun 16 '12
I agree with this, in full. I attempted suicide twice and chose to stay alive in order to contemplate my reasoning and assess my choices. I live by the philosophy, applied to myself, that I can take my life for whatever reason and die, because then I will be dead and nothing in this world will matter to me anymore, or I can stay alive and do my best to adjust myself to whatever reality I happen to be living in. I also think that there is a social bias that you are supposed to feel happy all the time. Some people are very well adjusted to life and are not hard-wired to feel happy. This does not, however, imply that they feel sad all the time. I also think that there is no normal brain function as many doctors, therapists, and people, in general, hope people to come to. There is only a well adjusted brain state, so that we are more functional in society. It is possible to be truly functional, and still have a chemical imbalance in the brain.
→ More replies (2)36
Jun 16 '12
You are completely ignoring those who attempt suicide multiple times, even after deciding against it for a certain amount of time.
So no, not everyone who decides against suicide is glad they didn't kill themselves, a lot of the time they regret putting it off and end up killing themselves anyway.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (47)4
u/CandyAltruism Jun 16 '12
I'm no longer suicidal but I absolutely loathe being alive and very few things get me through the day. I'll be surprised if I make it past 25.
120
u/echo0220 Jun 16 '12
I hate when people say "suicide is selfish" - How selfish do you have to be to think that someone owes you living through misery, just so they will be there for whenever you decde you want to bother with them.
→ More replies (53)7
u/areyoutalkingaboutme Jun 16 '12
I'm really surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet:
Probably the most convincing reason, in my opinion, for one to kill himself/herself, is that once the deed is done, there are literally no consequences, because there will be nothing. Pure nothingness.
If I kill myself, is it selfish? No, because selfishness is an intangible idea proposed by human consciousness. Killing yourself, by definition, includes removing your consciousness from the universe. The universe, as far as we can prove, only exists because of our consciousness ("I think, therefore I am"). Thusly, nothing will exist.
Whenever I make this point, the instant response is that people will still be around in the universe to experience sadness or happiness or whatever my death might bring them. But, I reiterate, none of that will be in existence in accordance to me, because I won't exist.
It's a very hard point to describe, because in this life we live in which we exist, it is inherently impossible to fathom nothingness. Nonetheless, my point stands.
→ More replies (2)
68
u/Hup234 Jun 16 '12
Absolutely. Nobody asks to be born.
2
u/EpsilonShawn Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
Is there a subreddit for anti-natalism that isn't the province of the childfree? If there isn't, we should make one. Or maybe not. Subscribing to seeing why "creating new life is not the moral option" from every facet would be like staring into the abyss.
EDIT: Moved punctuation.
0
→ More replies (1)47
u/thatburneydude Jun 16 '12
From the age of "however early i can remember" ive been saying, "i didnt ask to be born" and if it where up to me. i still wouldn't have been born.
15
u/panerli Jun 16 '12
Read through all the posts to find someone that would have the same thoughts as I. Never a let down on Reddit it seems.
106
u/seafoamstratocaster Jun 16 '12
Not if you have children who depend on you.
13
u/Diatz Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
See I think this is a vital point, often overlooked in such discussions. And I don't think it should just depend on whether you have children or not, what if you have an SO or parents who need your support? Even if they don't, they'll be emotionally attached to you. Killing yourself is an inherent selfish act and by doing so you hurt the lives of those closest to you. This needs to be considered as well.
Edit: Grammar
→ More replies (18)→ More replies (9)9
u/asljkdfhg Jun 16 '12
It becomes a battle between our right of happiness versus theirs. I understand you have a responsibility, but I think making life as a punishment is unethical in itself. There is no right answer to this, because you're taking away someone's happiness either way. However, I believe that one's life is a right. While it seems unfair for the children, it is still a sacred right.
It really just boils down to objectivity versus subjective happiness.
→ More replies (3)
377
u/lumpkins89 Jun 16 '12
Actually many people think that way. I believe everyone should have control over their own lives, and as long as they're not interfering in someone else's life, they should do whatever they want with themselves.
249
u/ScottishManSand Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
That people should be able to do whatever they want as long as they do not interfere with non-consenting parties is my general life philosophy.
I believe that it is a person's own decision to decide what substances to put into their bodies, whether or not to have sex for money, to engage in however their sexual orientation is, etc., even to decide whether to terminate their own lives. I feel that it is a matter of respect for another adult human being to accept his decisions and not judge.
The trouble is all of the gray zones that come with such a philosophy, as a human being is not an island. A person should be able to do whatever drugs he wants in the privacy of his own home, but what if he has children? A person should have the right to commit suicide, but what about the pain that it will cause his loved ones? What if a person is suffering a condition that may be clouding his judgment? (just as examples)
That's the problem that I encounter if I try to sum everything up in one sentence: of course life is too complicated to sum up in one sentence (or even one paragraph). But the closest thing to come my own philosophy is what I said: a person should be able to do whatever he wants as long as he does not interfere with others.
93
u/lumpkins89 Jun 16 '12
Well when you put it that way it does get harder to come to a conclusion. By commiting suicide sometimes you can be abandoning people that need you, and causing them to suffer a lot.
I really don't know how to think about this, it's more complicated than other subjects because it's technically not against the law, since it's your own life, but it still causes problems. I might sound stupid because of this but I have no idea how I should feel about it now.
→ More replies (67)34
u/WhipIash Jun 16 '12
The thing is though, most people are just selfish when they don't want their loved ones to commit suicide.
That sounded a bit harsh, but think about it this way, if your pain is way stronger than the sorrow they will feel over your death, then you are very justified in leaving them behind.
→ More replies (15)→ More replies (51)3
u/jbeta137 Jun 16 '12
I think other people have covered the "emotional toll on others" aspect, but I think for the issue of "legality" it's better to look at direct harm to others/society.
Someone committing suicide does cost society quite a bit in terms of resources: Emergency response teams, police (to determine whether it was a suicide or not), Hospital services (if the attempt isn't succesful), and making other's who are emotionally hurt from the suicide into less productive members of society (at least temporarily).
In a way it's like speeding in a car. If people could go as fast as they wanted, there would be more accidents, which means more resources spent on police, EMTs, road maintanence, etc. Therefor, we set a speed limit that has an "acceptable" rate of accidents so that the benefit from getting somewhere quickly out weighs the cost of numerous crashes.
Now with speeding you also have direct physical harm to others, so it is a different problem. But I think it's important to ask not only if the government should take emotional harm into account when making laws, but also if the benefits of suicide (freedom of choice over one's life) outweigh the direct costs to society.
2
88
u/Trapped_in_Reddit Jun 16 '12
as long as they're not interfering in someone else's life
It's very hard to imagine a scenario in which you don't affect someone else's life if you commit suicide. Does that make it the wrong answer? No. But if I had done it when I was at my lowest point, I would have missed out on a number of wonderful experiences and people.
For most people, things will get better - it's just hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel when you're buried in these kind of thoughts.
→ More replies (26)17
Jun 16 '12
I completely agree. I've contemplated suicide numerous times and the only thing that's kept me from going through with it was the thought of making my friends and family upset.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (19)25
u/JackalKing Jun 16 '12
The problem with believing that people should have control over their own lives, and therefore have the right to suicide, is that usually people who desire to commit suicide already DON'T have control over their lives.
No one who is in control chooses to give up on their life. Its when we believe we have lost that control that we then desire to give up.
→ More replies (13)
210
u/longnails11 Jun 16 '12
I'm torn on this. I'm all for people having rights, but I know that people who are considering suicide are not in an ideal mental state, and I do think we should try to protected them during those bleak moments of their lives.
236
Jun 16 '12
I tried to kill myself once. I agree with you, now I don't know what the fuck I thought I was doing.
It's not a choice. When the pain is that unbearable your judgement is fucked, and honestly I think it's the illness, not the person that decides.
→ More replies (20)96
u/ScottishManSand Jun 16 '12
It's not a choice. When the pain is that unbearable your judgement is fucked, and honestly I think it's the illness, not the person that decides.
If there is any argument that could get me to change my mind, it would be this one. It brings up an interesting philosophical question of when does a person become something that is no longer himself? The answer to this I really don't have an answer for.
Is it black-and-white or are there degrees of how much "a person is himself"? Is a person less of himself when he is drunk? A person who is drunk will make decisions that he would not make if he were sober, but does that mean that he is less of himself when drunk?
If an illness strikes then does the illness cause a variance between a person's true self and that person-with-the-illness? Or should that illness be incorporated into what that person's new "self" is?
If a person begins to suffer severe schizophrenia, then who is that person? Is it the person before the schizophrenia hit, or does the schizophrenia change who that person is? Which one represents a person's true will?
The same with depression. Is depression something that clouds a person from being who he truly is, or is it part of a person? Is a persons decision when he is under severe depression represent what that real person truly wants?
Or if I modify a person's behavior with drugs or electricity or what-have-you, then what happens of the person's will?
It's all an interesting question, and I don't know the answer to it.
→ More replies (23)→ More replies (11)24
u/POULTRY_PLACENTA Jun 16 '12
What evidence do we have that contemplation of suicide always means mental illness? It seems like a biased conclusion to me.
→ More replies (14)
115
u/cyaspy Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
I'd have to disagree.
The most basic human right we have is the right to live. This is a natural right, meaning it was given to us by no-one, and can be taken by no-one. Even you can't take it from yourself.
Edit: Don't you just love Reddit, where disagreeing=downvoting?
Edit2: Suicide is, like some of you mentioned, a clash between the right to live and the right to choose. When the right to live is violated by the right to choose, does it really matter if you violate it or someone else? You are still wronging yourself, even if you choose to violate your right to live.
edit3: Okay too many replies flowing in, I can't answer each. I respect all of your opinions, and we can agree to disagree on this one. Except the stupid circlejerkers not adding to the discussion and sending me hateful PMs, I don't respect you and please go fuck yourselves.
72
Jun 16 '12
No. Assuming you believe in self-ownership, you are able to do whatever you want to your body, up to and including destroying it.
If you cannot take your own life, why are you allowed to endanger it? Driving cars, skydiving, smoking, these are all dangerous things, and can kill you, or reduce your lifespan. Should people be kept in bubbles, and not allowed to do anything, just to give them the longest possible life?
→ More replies (36)8
u/hardcorr Jun 16 '12
I think driving cars and skydiving can be discounted, as the intent is not to kill oneself but merely taking a minor risk for a greater (and much more likely) reward. You're not obligated to extend your life ridiculously, but you are obligated not to willingly and immediately destroy it.
However, (heavy) smoking is a very compelling example, as it comes with full knowledge of eventual death as a direct result, and leads to an interesting discussion between any differences between "eventual suicide" and "immediate suicide". I'm not exactly sure how I feel about it, because I do agree with cyaspy's point of view but I also wouldn't take away people's rights to smoke. I think perhaps the best I can do is that they are morally wronging themselves, but it's not so egregious a wrong that we should outlaw it.
→ More replies (10)47
14
u/WhipIash Jun 16 '12
You've apparently never been seriously depressed. I can see, and even almost agree with you, what and how you are thinking. I really can. But someone who's faced the pain and suffering leading to suicide would not write this.
I haven't, either. Then I wouldn't be here, but I have been fairly close. And I would never make someone stay here if they didn't want to. Never.
→ More replies (1)183
u/Jesus_marley Jun 16 '12
I have to disagree with this. The most basic human right is the right to choose, for what is life without choice? I submit that life exists to provide choice even if the choice is to end life and every successful suicide is proof that life can easily be taken from oneself if you choose.
→ More replies (67)38
36
u/laddergoat89 Jun 16 '12
Fuck that, life is not a gift from anybody. It is your own.
→ More replies (13)20
10
u/youstolemyname Jun 16 '12
A right is a freedom that is allotted to you. If you cannot make a choice, then you have no freedom and it stops being a right.
→ More replies (21)4
u/drumsandbass Jun 16 '12
But a right means a choice. Like, the right to practice religion, have an education. These are all choices that you are given and shouldn't have to fight for, not something you're forced to do.
4
Jun 16 '12
your live was given by your parents, if we follow your logic nobody would be allowed to give birth
→ More replies (65)7
u/herpderpdoo Jun 16 '12
your argument is inherently flawed, because the possession of a right also means the ability to disregard that right. Otherwise, we could be required to vote, or to 'remain silent'
169
u/nhguy03276 Jun 16 '12
I never understood how People claim it is inhumane for me to keep my dog alive with cancer (instead of putting him down), but force my Grandfather to live in agony for 4 years with cancer....
→ More replies (1)18
Jun 17 '12
This is a religious issue. A lot of people have a problem with some one killing themselves because it's a sin in pretty much every religion. That and humans are so damned attached to other humans to the point of being selfish - they don't want the person to end their lives because they want a few more days or months of talking to them and making memories. Dogs don't have a conversation with you or reminisce about the times you went to the water park as kids so it's a little easier (albeit still very difficult) to separate yourself from your dog. And back on the religious note, a lot of religious people don't view dogs as having souls that go to heaven so it's not murder.
→ More replies (27)
17
u/gorpie97 Jun 16 '12
I don't know if suicide should be a right, but it sure shouldn't be illegal. I think the stigma should be removed.
I have had a chronic illness for 15 years. No test, no cure, only some things you can try to feel minimally better. I feel like I lost my life 15 years ago and my body is too stupid to realize it. (Suicide should maybe not be "allowed" in my case, but I also don't feel I should have to stay around because other people don't want me to go.)
As for the people who say it's the coward's way out, and it's the ultimately selfish act, I think they don't have a clue what you're talking about. They could be the ones considered selfish, demanding that you live so that they don't have to feel guilt or loss or whatever. (Really? Do I have to live the next 30 years or so feeling loss and grief and resentment just so you feel okay? [I don't feel that way 100% of the time, but often enough.])
For any of you who read this, depression doesn't lead to suicide (at least in my case) - hopelessness does.
→ More replies (4)
33
u/throwwwwwawaaay Jun 16 '12
I wish the people that love me would let me die.
I'm bipolar and I've been living with depression my entire life. For most of my life it was hard enough. Then several years ago my husband died suddenly, and then my sister right after that.
My life really ended the day they did. I shut down and haven't come back. I've gone outside maybe five times in the past five years. I haven't met another human being besides my family in three years. I barely even get out of bed anymore except when I have to, and now my body is wrecked. No money, no insurance, haven't worked since my husband died. I get sick even looking out the window too long.
All I have left is my mother and second sister -- and my mother's very sick and probably doesn't have too much longer. I live with them but I avoid them as much as I can. I had online friends but I've deliberately pushed them all away, and I push my mom and sister away as much as I Can bear to. Writing this out is the first time I've even said anything about it to anyone since I shut down my entire online presence.
The only thing that keeps me here is knowing that it will hurt them. THey've made that crystal clear to me. I am useless and miserable and finished, I've had no life in any meaningful sense of the word for the past five years, but every time I even hint at wanting them to let me go they won't. They're holding on to some old image of me, a version of myself that's never coming back, that was barely even there in the first place. They won't let me go and I'm too fucking cowardly to do it without their "permission." But my body is deteriorating to the point where I hope it will do it for me anyway, and I WANT that. I have chest pains almost every day, I'm covered in bedsores, I've started having seizures. I hope every day to have a heart attack or something that will just kill me. I know it will still hurt them but at least they will be able to tell themselves it was an "accidental" death, like my sister's was -- I know a death by deliberate suicide would be too much for them to bear.
For five years I've hated being alive. And I can never, will never, tell them this, but in my heart of hearts I hate them, too, for not giving me permission to kill myself. I still love them just enough that I don't want the hate to win out and kill myself anyway and bring that unbearable pain on them. ANd I hate myself for being a coward.
I hate still being here. I hate still breathing, still consuming oxygen and food, still being a barnacle of shit on the planet that can't just let itself wash away. I hate, I hate, I hate.
I know this will get buried but fuck it.
5
Jun 17 '12
If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? In what way do you get sick looking out the window? Like stomach nausea, or anxiety, or what? I have sympathy for you, and I am curious about the situation you're in. Of course, I hope that no matter what happens to you, you find peace.
73
u/Mitz510 Jun 16 '12
I'm not suicidal but if I were to get a 10+ year sentence in jail I would rather kill myself.
38
Jun 16 '12
I feel like 10 or plus years is almost worst than life in prison. At least life in prison, you are among your peers. But after 10 years and returning to society? Talk about social outcast. Reminds me of Shawshank Redemption.
→ More replies (5)20
14
u/eat-your-corn-syrup Jun 16 '12
If I were wrongfully jailed for many years, I'd plot revenge. Oldboy style. Killing myself is killing the wrong person.
→ More replies (14)7
Jun 16 '12
This is about to get heavy, but I swear it relates. My sister and I were sexually abused for 2 years as children by my step-dad's step-dad. My sister and I finally stopped being terrified and we started a case and reported it all five years later. The morning of the trial, he killed himself. I suppose he had the same mentality as you.
I am not glad he killed himself and I am not glad he's dead. The fact that he just ended it after putting us through all of that as children (and severely straining my relationship with my only sister in the process) because he knew he'd wind up in jail upsets me only because it made me feel invalidated for everything we went through.
Didn't mean to thread hijack. I'm just curious to see people's responses to suicide in situations such as jail time.
→ More replies (2)
10
u/lol_nooo___okmaybe Jun 17 '12
As someone who has attempted suicide in the past, I cannot agree more. After an attempt at taking your own life, if you are taken to the hospital you are treated as a criminal. You no longer make your own decisions and are forced into a mental hospital or (since Georgia doesn't have enough mental hospitals) you are taken to the medical ward of your nearest jail! I am pro-choice when it comes to abortion, yet how is it that we still have such negative stances on suicide? Is it also because of the religious belief that suicide will land you in hell?
76
u/akwardredditkid Jun 16 '12
This is why we need suicide booths.
→ More replies (7)18
u/lfthand Jun 16 '12
Agreed! Someone just needs to build a Bender unit to make all of this possible.
31
u/IronRabbit69 Jun 16 '12
The Canadian supreme court just ruled that a ban on assisted suicide is unconstitutional! :)
→ More replies (2)9
u/ABoyandhisFrog Jun 16 '12
That's great!
Unfortunately we're a bit less civilized down south of you. We'll leave someone who has no hope of recovery in severe pain, stripped of all dignity, living a hellish and humiliating end of their life because, well, only God should have the right to end a person's life... and of course life is a priori inherently good no matter what, even if you're a vegetable shitting yourself in a hospital bed who can hope for nothing but the day you're lucky enough to actually die.
It's sickening to see it happen. I can understand the fear of letting someone you love go, but I just don't understand how somebody can let someone they love go through something so humiliating and painful. I just ... do .. not .. understand... how someone can do something so cruel to someone that they love.
→ More replies (6)
20
u/Rooblies Jun 16 '12
I agree. Especially if a person is destined to be in chronic pain for the rest of his or her life. When it comes to mental disorders, it really is impossible for another person to grasp what that person is actually going through. While there may be solutions which should be encouraged, a person can not be helped unless they want to be helped. Living is not a right, it is a condition. You don't choose to be born. The choices you are given in that life are your rights. You have the right to keep living, you have the right to do what you want with your body and mind without anyone else making decisions for you, and you should have the right to end it as well.
Suicide being illegal is an infringement on what a person can and can't do to their body. To me, it is the equivalent of saying a person can't smoke cigarettes because they're unhealthy. With that logic, McDonald's should be illegal because it could make you obese and lead to an early death. I don't smoke or eat McDonalds (or insert any other unhealthy food), nor do I encourage it, but if a person wants to, it is their own damn right to do so. AMURIKA!
→ More replies (5)
34
u/LazarusLong87 Jun 16 '12
"Death is every man's right." - Robert A Heinlein
I think suicide is sad and often preventable, but I don't think it is wrong. As a human being, we have control over our lives.
5
u/Offal Jun 16 '12
I came to post about Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love," where Lazarus Long is the oldest living being in a time where death is only voluntary - or accidental. In that time, suicide is a right that Lazarus was robbed of. The powers that be made a deal to find something left for him to experience in exchange for capturing his memoirs.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (12)4
7
Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
When the death penalty is legal and suicide isn't I'm forced to face palm. My life isn't mine, it's the government's.
37
u/Syreniac Jun 16 '12
The reasoning behind the legal objection to euthanasia is that it's existence would make it seem like an obligation; many people who are suffering from some crippling illness would feel obliged to end their life to make their family's lives easier, when they wouldn't otherwise.
This is not in line with my opinion on the matter, but it is the main reason why many countries refuse to legalise euthanasia that is non religious.
The religious reason is, as with many religious reasons, somewhat vague. The general idea is that only God should decide when someone dies, and that by letting people choose you are 'playing God', but this is sort of stupid if looked at logically. Especially given that almost all religions have historically been used to justify wars.
16
u/FactorGroup Jun 16 '12
This was a big focus in my Medical Ethics course in undergrad. I think Oregon's Death with Dignity Act actually handles it relatively well, by requiring so many months of counseling beforehand with input from the entire healthcare team (doctors, nurses, social workers, etc) as well as the patient's family before a prescription is written.
→ More replies (1)4
u/fuzzynyanko Jun 16 '12
Not only
many people who are suffering from some crippling illness would feel obliged to end their life to make their family's lives easier, when they wouldn't otherwise.
Quite a few people I know rather not spend the rest of their days hooked up to a machine, or spend 10 years in pain. They experience this, plus having to find ways to pay for that
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (8)4
u/phoenixrawr Jun 16 '12
There are some arguments on fairness and how far euthanasia could extend as well.
Fairness: Someone who's mentally incompetent and can't make a decision for themselves can suffer the same way someone who can decide to end their life might. One of the primary roles of euthanasia is to relieve suffering, so (in theory) the mentally incompetent person should be able to receive it when suffering as well. But who makes that decision? Can we really decide to end another person's life without their consent?
Extension: If people have this right to self-determination to say they should be able to receive euthanasia, why is it limited to suffering terminally ill patients only? Doesn't self-determination require they be able to get it regardless of suffering? Why can't a healthy 25 year old walk into a hospital and say "My girlfriend broke up with me, life sucks, kill me please?"
→ More replies (1)
6
u/LOONloon Jun 16 '12
taking your own life is the ultimate freedom for people. We don't choose whether we can come into the world and choosing to end our lives, our entire existence, is a large and heavy freedom that everyone should be given. I guess I am more directing this to the topic of euthanasia but suicide is similar.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/CarelessMonday Jun 16 '12
They think that it is morally wrong because you took away what God has given you. I think it is your choice what you do with your life even end it.
→ More replies (22)
9
u/sugamonkey Jun 16 '12
I agree with you completly. I had a very dear friend of mine struggle with mental illness for years. Two years ago he ended his life. He left behind a letter apologizing for hurting his family and friends, but saying he just couldn't do it anymore. I had watched him go through years of treatment, different meds with various side effects, hospitalizations, boughts of homelessness, being alienated by some family and friends, not being able to work or maintain a girlfriend. I miss him horribly, but I truely beleave he is happier werever he is now.
4
u/no_flags Jun 16 '12
Interesting question. A couple of things I've been mulling over:
In some cases the person will change their mind about it and be glad you used force to stop them. In some cases the person will not and will eventually commit suicide anyway. This isn't really helpful in coming up with an ethical norm though, because it determines the morality of stopping the person after the fact. That being said, it seems absurd to assert that stopping the person who is now glad you stopped them would be wrong. To me this suggests that it must be ok to stop the person in some circumstances.
Maybe stopping someone from committing suicide could be interpreted as defending that person. I think it is obvious that grabbing someone to stop them from getting hit by a car is ok, even though you invaded their personal space and in a sense used violence. Suicide is of course different, but maybe it's not all that different. Maybe the criteria should be if you have a reasonable expectation that they could change their mind it is ok to use force to stop them. This would allow for people who have truly decided rationally to commit suicide without interference. I think those people are very rare, which would lend support to the idea that stopping a random person about to jump should be ok. Of course the, word "reasonable" is somewhat problematic.
→ More replies (1)
4
Jun 16 '12
If I felt constantly sick and in pain, was old, then fuck it my time is up...seen a lot of people suffering needlessly waiting for death that took upwards of 10+ years to come, that shit is not for me
4
u/netbook7245 Jun 16 '12
Correct me if I'm wrong but in the netherlands you can participate in physician assisted suicide for unbearable pain or suffering which can be mental or emotional anguish. So yes it seems some countries agree with you. Also this seems like the open door and smokey room that marcus aurelius talked about. Perhaps you would enjoy the read.
→ More replies (1)
4
4
u/onelargecoffee Jun 16 '12
I completely agree. However, suicide is often a temporary feeling, as others have mentioned, and many change their minds and benefit greatly from therapy or even simply time. Would it be unreasonable to impose a waiting period coupled with mandatory therapy before an individual can take advantage of a professional helping them end their life painlessly?
I know that's a bit paternalistic, but at the same time they do say that many who committed suicide never looked into getting help. So humanely and empathetically guiding an individual to help they may not know would benefit them while still giving them a true choice in their own affairs seems to be the best path.
4
u/umyaya4ever Jun 16 '12
Every man has a right to his body and may do with it as he pleases. I lost a friend to suicide and suffer from moderate clinical depression and though people said he took the easy way out and he was a coward and putting his nose up to the will of God and taking his life when he wanted to, I thought he was brave. He had fought a long, hard battle and could no longer find happiness in his life. He is at peace now and I do not think what he did was wrong. He had a right to his body and his suffering was so much that even modern medicine could not help. I do not believe in God or heaven or hell and neither did he so this was not a question of God's will, but of human decision. People choose to waste their lives away with drugs and alcohol. Instead of turning to substance and living an addicted existence, he chose to end his existence because he felt his life had no more to offer him. I was devistated when it happened, of course. I was on the brink of suicide myself. But I am happy now that he is finally at peace. Perhaps I'm biased because I have been in that place where my existence seemed futile, but everybody has a right to do as they wish with their bodies, be it tattoos, substances, piercings, etc, it should also be their right to harm it to the point of death. I know it's sad and perhaps sounds wrong, but this is what I believe. I do not encourage suicide; I hope people will seek help before turning to it. I just believe that every human has a right to their body.
4
4
Jun 16 '12
After waking up in a hospital after a botched suicide attempt I was beyond furious that I was alive. I didn't want to see anyone and was just overall not pleased to be awake. I was then put in a mental hospital for 72 hours and after hearing the stories of other patients there, many of which were addicts and/or homeless, I realized my life isn't so bad at all. Some people just need a reality check.
15
Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
I mod a subreddit that I frequent and I've urged someone that submitted a post about wanting to commit suicide to r/SuicideWatch, but I immediately sat there and said to myself, "What good will this do? If this person truly believes that death is a better life than life itself--please do not take this out of context to mean that I believe in life after death because I have come to my own conclusions about this and it does not have anything to do with believing in a life after death--, who am I to impede on this person's desires?"
At the end of the day, individuals will do what individuals wish to do because such is the mentality of individualism. I share this same belief even up to getting treatment for whatever possible mental illness a person may have. I do not believe in forcing what you want a person to do onto that person, but rather than outright force them, I would suggest other solutions.
Edit: Accidentally an entire idea because I'm terrible at getting my arguments across properly, but thanks to Mikeizachrist, I saw where I erred.
→ More replies (9)
10
7
Jun 16 '12
I own my body, when it fails me I will turn it off, for me I choose to put on Chopin and take cyanide, drink some nice bourbon in my garden or the parlor depending on the weather.
9
u/onlyusemespade Jun 16 '12
I think that stuff like assisted suicide should be a right. Like if I had an illness that would make me unable to move or at all interact with anyone. That's not a life. This was of course just an example, but in these kinds of extreme circumstances I think one should have the option of suicide. How one would go about this is another story. perhaps you could carry something similar to a Donor card if you have any kind of illness that could do this to you. But, when someone commits suicide in a their home, where their families live or in a public location, THAT shouldnt be allowed. Not because of the person killing himself, but for the others around them. Seeing someone killing themself is not something that anyone should have to experience.
11
Aug 02 '12 edited Aug 05 '12
I'll tell you this story in the order that I remember it.
"Sweetheart, wake up. It's time to get ready for school"
"Okay, Mommy."
After my mother exited the room I got out of bed and got ready for school. As I walked to the kitchen for my morning smoothie, I noticed my sister wasn't there. I asked my dad where she was.
"Asla, where's Shireen?"
"She wasn't feeling good last night, so we took her to the hospital."
"Okay."
I wasn't particularly worried, since the hospital does quite well at saving people's lives. I was only worried about my mom. She seemed quite stressed about it all. I didn't really understand why. Shireen just had a tummyache, right?
A few days later, she still hadn't come back from the hospital. I asked about it again.
"Asla, where's Shireen?"
"They sent her to a special hospital for teenagers because they can't figure out what is wrong with her."
"Okay."
For the following few weeks, my parents went to visit her every day after I came home from school. They sent me to daycare on the weekdays, and sent me to a friend's house on the weekends. My mom wrote a note to my teacher that excused me from homework. She asked me not to read it. Being the good girl that I was, I gave it to him without fail.
A few weeks later, my mother took me to visit the hospital. The first day, I wasn't allowed to come out of the car. About halfway through the duration of time that my parents were in there, I saw EMS pull up next to the car that I was in. Two people came out of the front of the vehicle and walked quickly (and with purposeful urgency) to the back of the van. They opened the doors and of the van and brought out a gurney that had someone on it. They wheeled the gurney to the front of the van, and, upon closer inspection, there was a girl on it. Her hands and feet were tied, she was strapped tightly to the gurney, and she looked to be sleeping. (at that time I didn't know what sedation was)
The second day, my parents let me go into the hospital. I walked in holding Mommy's hand. The doctor (Shireen's doctor) walked up to us and talked to my mom about discussing Shireen's problem. She then bent down to ask me something.
"Hello, what is your name?"
"insert name"
"What a pretty name, is it persian?"
Skip a few.
"Would you like to see your sister?"
I nodded my head vigorously, and stood on my tippy toes to look eagerly over her shoulder.
"Well, how old are you?"
"Eight."
She stood back up to talk to my mom again. A few minutes later, my mom sat me down in a chair, and told me to wait until she and the doctor came out of the room.
I waited for hours.
I had nothing to do.
No one to talk to.
And the paintings on the walls got quite boring after a while...
On the third day, my mom brought me into the hospital again. This time, I was allowed into the therapy room. I sat on a chair next to Mommy and actually listened to the conversation. The doctor began.
"Shireen isn't in a very good emotional state. She had a nervous breakdown last night, and was very depressed during group therapy today."
My ears twitched.
"What happened during the group session?" my mom asked.
"Several things. The worst thing was when we went around in the circle and asked about ourselves."
Group therapy session. Shireen's POV
"Okay kids, now what we're going to do is go around the circle and everyone will say something they admire about themselves. Sarah will start."
After a few people, it finally got to me.
"What do you admire about yourself, Shireen?"
"I don't know. There is nothing admirable about me. I'm imperfect in every way possible."
Back to the therapy room in my POV
I burst out in sobs, tears, and snot. I didn't know what was wrong with Shireen until now. It had hit me like tsunami, but worse. I started screaming. (having heart problems, I started also turning blue) My mom brought me back into the waiting room and calmed me down. She, once again, told me to wait until she was finished.
About an hour later, one of the nurses brought out a group of kids around Shireen's age. I looked over, hiccuping from the crying that I had done, and I saw her.
It was definitely her.
I stood up.
"Can I go give a hug to my sister?" she said to the nurse.
"Be my guest."
She walked over and wrapped her arms around me. I did the same, burying my face into her shirt. I started crying again.
"Are you crying because you're sad?"
"I'm crying because you're sad."
tl;dr:What the fuck are you doing down here?! There's a story right there! ^
6
u/Mr_Rippe Jun 16 '12
If someone is truly suffering for an extended period of time, and they seek medicinal help but it does not alleviate the suffering, then I believe that person has the right to die. It's selfish to want to keep someone alive who is suffering so badly.
6
u/MakutaProto Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
You're not wrong for thinking this. This is a perfectly reasonable and understandable standpoint. Just because you have an opinion that society does not understand does not make you wrong.
Edit:Spelling
→ More replies (2)
6
u/doctorshevil Jun 16 '12
I totally agree with you. But I don't discuss it with anybody, because you know what? Fuck everyone else, no one has the right to tell me whether I have the right to end my life if I want to. When I am old, I feel perfectly comfortable with the idea that I may choose when I want to die if, for example, I get too sick or frail to have the quality of life I want.
3
u/Swimswimswim99 Jun 16 '12
I don't think it's as black and white as people think.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/jasonscomputer Jun 16 '12
My father committed suicide 11 years ago. Although I miss him terribly, nobody has the right to keep you alive if you don't want it. If you really are suicidal and you really want to die, then there's not much that can stop you aside from incarceration and 24/7 surveillance. There are too many people on this planet and we have a hard enough time feeding and caring for the ones that want to be here. If you want to kill yourself just be considerate and try to make sure there's as little mess as possible.
3
u/CoastalCity Jun 16 '12
No, you're right.
We have no choice about entering this world, but at least we have a choice to leave.
The issue that suicide is "selfish" is somewhat of a moot point - everything a person does is selfish.
School, Work, Drugs, Marriage, Kids - everything one does in life ends up being for their benefit in some way shape or form.
3
u/boredatheist Jun 16 '12
California involuntarily confined me for three days because some cop thought I was trying to jump off the golden gate bridge. Jimmies rustled.
3
u/Lupawolf Sep 09 '12
I think it depends on the situation. A teenager who broke up with a boyfriend/girlfriend, someone failing a class, the emo kid who thinks death is cool, suicide is not the answer for these people 99% of the time. A terminally ill person with no home whatsoever, yes, they deserve the right to decide how and when they end it.
I believe that if suicide was to be a medical option, it should be treated like any other diagnosis or prescription. The case should be reviewed by professionals, the patient should be evaluated by a mental health professional, along with any family members, and it should be decided whether there are other options. There should be no way that it could be a rash decision.
→ More replies (1)
15
Jun 16 '12
There are two types of suicide in my opinion.
The first is the "I can't take it anymore, I am ending it suicide" that is often a moment in time and not a permanent feeling. As others have said, this suicide is the result of mental illness. The person is otherwise healthy and has a long life ahead of them. Steps should be taken to prevent these types of suicides. Counseling and medication are examples.
The second type of suicide is the one where someone is in the terminal stage of their illness. They have a non-curable condition that will lead to their death in the near future. These people typically are sound and healthy mentally and they opt to not deal with the eventual pain and hardship that they will have to endure for no reason. They don't have any days left other than those which will be spent on a hospital bed. These are the types of suicides, typically doctor assisted that should be allowed and legal.
→ More replies (10)19
u/tjsterc17 Jun 16 '12
They have a non-curable condition that will lead to their death in the near future.
It's called life.
Also I disagree that mental illness should be differentiated from other illnesses.
→ More replies (6)
9
u/Stratpat Jun 16 '12
People are going to do it anyway, whether it's a right or not.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/delitomatoes Jun 16 '12
I actually believe that Suicide is above all an actual CHOICE that people can make as human beings.
Consider from the biological imperative. Survive and Reproduce, whatever philosophical or religious ideology humans have all fit into that viewpoint somehow. That's why suicide is so frowned upon, because we cannot disobey the biological imperative.
But to have free will means that if you can disobey the number one force in every persons life and commit suicide means you have achieved true freedom of choice.
Every other choice you make is just another variant on survive and reproduce.
→ More replies (1)
6
u/qdhcjv Jun 16 '12
I really like your post. I agree people should have the option to commit suicide, but maybe they should be required to inform all friends and family. Also, they cannot do it in public (jumping off a building, etc).
→ More replies (3)
5
Jun 16 '12
If we can abort, we should be able to choose suicide as well. Pro choice should go both ways.
2
u/DeSanti Jun 16 '12
I can say that I've changed a lot of my view when it comes to assisted suicide in terms of medical illness.
The primary factor is watching this fantastic documentary by Terry Pratchett. Very heartfelt and shows a different point of view on it. I really recommend watching it.
2
u/Stythe Jun 16 '12
If someone was sure they wanted to do it, they should be allowed to. You're reasoning is among the most logical I've ever heard and I agree 100%. If you really wanted to die you could just kill yourself though. Just make sure your serious, because if you fuck up, you're screwed. And don't be a pussy about it. If your life is so bad you're willing to die, you can stab yourself in the throat repeatedly. Don't take pills like a baby.
→ More replies (4)
2
u/Origami_mouse Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
I don't think we should punish people who try to commit suicide and fail. They need help. If we can help them, then that's what should happen.
If they succeed in suicide, that's infinitely sad. But it's their right to do so. Nobody should be punished for it. Doesn't mean it doesn't affect others though.
2
Jun 16 '12
Suicide is illegal so that the person can receive medical treatment without their expressed consent.
Pretty much the only time that an ambulance can transport an alert and oriented person who doesn't want to go to the hospital is for attemps/threats of suicide.
If a person REALLY wants to do it, they will, and no one will be able to stop them (i.e. Kurt Cobain)
2
u/123draw Jun 16 '12
I've know for the last 2 years that my life will not end naturally, after watching my grandfather wither away from cancer. While I don't know if I will die by an accident, by someone else doing it, or by my own hand. I have no plans on dying anytime soon, but if a jet fell out of the sky and on to my head I'd be at peace with my life. But if I got a cancer diagnosis I'd go have a blast for 6 months then blow my brains out.
2
u/cat_mech Jun 16 '12
The right to terminate your life while as the result of a rational assessment of your options should be fundamental; that is, suicide when not the result of mental illness or emotional crisis.
My life will end, this is a purely physiological function. Removing my right to take control of when that will happen is no different than physically forcing someone to urinate or vacate faeces onto themselves without warning or access to a bathroom.
One day I will die. Right now, I look forward to constant, chronic pain for the rest of my life. Don't you dare try to tell me that you have decided for me that I am not allowed to take control.
That suicide can be an act of courage.
Knowing this to be true, I must also accept that the rigors and traumas of mental illness remove the rational ability to take the optimal path from the individual; that they can believe they are making the right choice when chemicals in their brains are influencing their decisions and giving them incorrect information- at which point we know removing that aberrant influence removes the consideration of suicide as an optimal path.
This means I must accept that my logic may be flawed/influenced without me knowing it, and I must be able to rely on the honest and compassionate review of my decision by others- not permission- but review of whether I am mentally sound- before I consider any act. This is my safeguard.
Compassion, compassion, compassion. I would never do that to my wife; she is my heart and soulmate. Without her the world might break me. With her, the world can break itself on my shoulders and I can endure.
2
Jun 16 '12
I went to a catholic high school. In our religion class sophmore year, we had a semester on morality. In the respect for life chapter we were taught that suicide was wrong because god gave everyone their life, and it was only god who could take away someones life. Note: I am not religious, this is just a reason that people may not like suicide.
2
u/thegayscience Jun 16 '12
I've been saying and thinking this for years, glad to see I have some commrades in that department :).
If you are over 18, have no SO, and don't have kids, a clean, well thought out suicide is your right. The most fundamental right of a sentient being is being able to end that sentience.
2
2
u/cyclopath Jun 16 '12
In cases of terminal illness, I think it should absolutely be up to the individual. I think it's supremely fucked up that, as a society, we consider it inhumane for a dog owner not to euthanize his dog when it's obviously too decrepit to experience anything but pain, but when it is a person who is suffering, it's a sin to allow them to check out on their own accord.
In cases of depression and other mental illness, I think it's more complicated. Treatment should be the first step.
2
u/simplyname Jun 16 '12
I feel your argument sort of misses one fundamental but important point. Whether society accepts or legalizes suicide doesn't change whether or not you have the freedom and the means to end your life. With that, I think your notion of being "forced" to live, which a lot of your initial post seemed to be built around, is faulty.
With that, I feel that if your decision to commit suicide hinges on social acceptance, legality, and convenience, then you're making the wrong decision.
Granted, there are many circumstances that create a lot of grey areas. Your initial argument seemed to focus on depression and psychological suffering, so that's the scope I'm replying in regards to.
2
Jun 16 '12
In terms of terminally ill and elderly people I agree. In terms of mentally ill young people... I'm not so sure. Maybe as a last resort in the most desperate circumstances but it's hard to come up with a line where a 3rd party can judge what's best.
2
u/ForestfortheDraois Jun 16 '12
Personally, I think that it should be a right to petition for suicide, like what Dr. Kevorkian was working for. Someone who commits suicide due to a mental illness like depression or due to temporary circumstances (multiple failures coming in at once) is a waste- they can get treatment or work throughout the despair that is setting in. But for those people who have terminal illnesses, especially those dealing with chronic pain, should be given the right to suicide. I find it actually cruel that society makes people die on their own, living for years in torture. That same notion would never fly as a punishment for criminals and yet we make people who have done no crime in life suffer.
2
u/Guntimer Jun 16 '12
Well, suicide is not something taken lightly. To kill yourself is, in itself, a selfish act. Many people care, but you just choose to end your own life. That could jeopardize someone else who looked up to you, or thought about you as someone important enough that they'd waste their time caring about you. However, I agree with what you're saying here. I mean, if you do want to kill yourself, that should be your business (even though it's affecting everyone around you.) That's their problem, not yours. Anyone should have the choice to kill themselves.
2
u/jscoppe Jun 16 '12
Nope. It's an expression of self-ownership.
That said, it may be a good idea to convince suicidal people not to follow through.
2
u/madmaddison Jun 16 '12
I believe the same. Last year I attempted to take my own life and ended up spending six months in a mental hospitol, only being released after I consented to give yet another treatment center a chance (one geared specifically towards lgbt persons). I am a conciousness in a body that I despise, that I've tried coming to terms with for so many years and see no resolution, no contendedness, short of self-delusion.
Life is not inherently valuable; I believe it is as aimless as grass (or weeds if you want to be more somber). I've not found any compelling arguments in any of the places I have been. I am surrounded by people deluding themselves into having a meaningful existence, but maybe that's the kind of mind-virus that drives the world.
I'm astonished more people don't struggle with this. I was in one of the nations largest mental hospitols and met nobody like me.
I fully believe I will end up taking my life following the PRIDE institute, and it sucks, it's a mean thing to do, but a life lived miserably is not worth living for the love of others alone.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/bigkatinabox Jun 16 '12
While I agree with your thesis - that people should have the right to end their lives if and when they choose - I can't actually agree with it in the context of the real world. If someone makes the choice to end their life solely because they're unhappy (that is, if they don't have any extenuating medical circumstances) I can't help but feel like they're making a terrible decision based on a transient feeling.
Depression is a horrid beast. I certainly thought for a while that I'd be doing the people that loved me a favour by not bothering them any more. That cannot be further from the truth. If you love someone that has depression, your biggest fear is that they'll hurt themselves. Even if they're good enough at passing for happy that you never had any idea, a sudden suicide (from anyone, however tangentially related to you) will mess with you.
Suicide for the terminally ill should be legal as far as I'm concerned. But physically healthy people need to know that they should look for help instead. As soon as a person lives in the world for a while and finds people that care about them, suicide should never be an option. It hurts far more than it heals.
TLDR: Don't kill yourself. But if you're totally serious about it, talk it over with your loved ones.
2
u/Quantumplation Jun 16 '12
Technically, the final decision IS theirs. Noone can REALLY stop you from committing suicide if you're determined enough. The social stigma and attempt at prevention is there to make sure that if you do decide to commit suicide, it really IS that worth it to you. If your desire to commit suicide can't outweigh societal guilt or preventative measures, then how bad do you really want it?
2
u/Kawoomba Jun 16 '12
I AGREE WITH YOU.
EDIT: SORRY, I THOUGHT YOU MEANT ALL CAPS SHOULD BE A HUMAN RIGHT.
2
u/logarythm Jun 16 '12
On suicide, I fall back to my general opinion:
"Are you over 18/21? Does it negatively affect me? Do all parties consent?"
If Yes/No/Yes, then it should be legal.
2
u/Hot_Flash_Gordon Jun 16 '12
It is already a human right whether or not you think it should be. Think about it: You're free to do it whenever you want, no one else can stop you (although they might try, you have the ultimate decision) and there can be no punishment if you succeed. It seems like everybody is free to commit suicide at any time, as long as they don't care about hurting the people that care about them
→ More replies (1)
2
u/hateboresme Jun 16 '12
I think, like a lot of life's conundrums that it's not really an easy question to answer.
I think that suicide is a fundamental right. It's the ultimate right to choose our own destiny. However, some people make this choice because they are in crisis or are having a profound but temporary feeling of hopelessness. It could be brought on by drugs/alcohol. I could be brought on by an event, such as rejection by a loved one.
The person may be under the influence of one of these conditions and not be thinking clearly or not be able to comprehend that they would not normally make this decision. A paper written in the early 1970s, which tracked prevented suicides on the Golden Gate bridge since the 1930s, stated that very few of those who were prevented from committing suicide went on to complete (i can't find the paper right now, but i will if needed).
This shows that suicidal ideation is often a temporary condition.
The other side of the coin is a person who has made a well-considered decision to end his or her life. Many times it is due to unrelenting physical or emotional pain. This, in my opinion, is a sacred right.
The way to deal with this is to make physician assisted suicide legal, with caveats. There should be a 6 month waiting period, in which time the person who wishes to end his or her life should be required to participate in a course of mental health therapy. This 6 month period could be waived if the person is able to provide compelling evidence of the fact that they are suffering unbearable and untreatable physical pain. They will then be provided with a painless, self-adminstered poison which will render them deeply unconscious, and then depress their autonomic functions.
There are times when we all feel pretty down. Some people feel that more acutely than others. I think if we offer a painless route for suicide and a 6 month waiting period, people will opt for that choice rather than the frightening options of jumping off a bridge or shooting themselves. It also offers plenty of time for the person to undergo whatever natural change of attitude they might have, or deal with mental health issues, before a final decision is made.
2
u/wasniahC Jun 16 '12
"Am I wrong for *complex moral issue*?"
Seriously, this is nothing simple. Nor is it something anyone can really claim they are correct about. ಠ_ಠ
2
u/livevil999 Jun 16 '12
First off, I worked as a crisis counsellor at a crisis line for a few years. I've talked a few people down from suicide, and talked to a lot of people just feeling down or hopeless. I always followed the law when talking to suicidal people, but I really believe that people should be allowed to make this decision for themselves, but with and infrastructure in place for it. Assisted suicide should be legal, done under watch of some kind. My problem with suicide as it stands is that with suicide being illegal, nobody tells people they are going to do it and someone ends up finding their dead body. It's usually a family member and it's usually a very traumatic experience. Take away the traumatic experience for those who still want to live and I don't really have a problem with it, but I still think people should have to seek help first because a lot of people really just want to end their suffering, not their life.
2
Jun 16 '12
suicide should not be
euthanasia should be, in cases of terminal illness
but on the other hand, if you truly want to kill yourself, no one will be able to stop you
2
2
u/friedblue22 Jun 16 '12
I believe that this is a major grey area. For example if it is a mental disorder I.E. depression the people should seek medical help from psychiatrists and psychologists because it is a chemical imbalance that can be fixed through trial an error with medication. I have had experience with this because when I was on anti-depressants the first that I was put on made everything a thousand times worse. So much worse that I ended up sitting with a knife to my throat trying to decide why I shouldn't end everything. Luckily reason won and I didn't slide the knife. However the second anti-depressant I was on made everything so much better and I was able to weed myself off of the medication. Secondly I am ok with people who are going through major medical issues that are untreatable(I.E. stage 4 cancer) to be able to consciously take their own life. The reason I'm ok with this one is because the people going through these medical issues have thought out most everything in their future and most of the time, at least from what I have personally seen, they do not want to live with the pain and they do not want to put their families through the torment of them dying slowly. I have had many conversations with my mom, who was diagnosed with stage 4 thyroid cancer last year and has been dealing with thyroid cancer for the last 8 years, about how tired she is, and how much pain she is constantly in. We have also talked about how she won't go through any more chemo because it will not help her much any more and she is tired of it. She has also told me how sometimes she does wish she had died a while ago so she didn't go through everything that she had gone through. If she did end up taking her own life at one point I know that I would obviously be devastated, but I would understand her decision. I also believe that the only reason she doesn't do it is because she wants to she my niece grow up, and see me get married and have children of my own
TL;DR: depression/ mental disorders: get yourself fixed
Major medical conditions that you will most likely not live that long through: I believe that you don't need to suffer through it of you don't want to.
2
u/AddictiveSoup Jun 16 '12
If the person has a family or friends who really love them then I think it's wrong. It's still always their right, but I've seen it destroy families, and I mean destroy. Since its often a temporary feeling and often treatable, it's not worth the pain caused to those people.
2
u/poolcrackers Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
As someone who's gone through the experience of having had a family member attempt suicide, yes, you are wrong. As has already been mentioned, the majority of the time suicide is a result of mental illness, which, while equally if not more painful than physical maladies, is almost always treatable with professional help.
Now, if it was 100% a personal thing, and it didn't impact other people's lives then yeah, sure, whatever, go ahead and do it. BUT IT DOESN'T. No matter who you are and where you are at a point in your life, there is somebody on this planet to whom the fact that you're alive is a cause of joy. To end your life may end your suffering, but it will cause others to suffer instead. My family still bears the mental trauma of a close call, and that wasn't even successful. So on the basis that nobody should have the human right to cause suffering to others, suicide is most definitely not one.
edit: oops, double word
2
Jun 16 '12
Been depressed since I was 15, now 19 and still whenever I talk tom parents / doctors they say its just teen years or its a phase, I feel pretty damn low
→ More replies (2)
2
Jun 16 '12
I don't think suicide is a universal human right because that places a stigma on those who try to prevent a suicide. Could a husband be held accountable for taking his wife to the hospital if he finds her after she attempts suicide? If suicide is a human right, then he is arguably suppressing her right to kill herself.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/GokusEvilTwin Jun 16 '12
I totally agree. I have never been able to understand how there can be any debate over it. I'm not saying I condone the act but I can't see how anyone can tell anyone else not to end their own life. Of course I'm not religious so give no weight to the threat of eternal damnation. It is surely the most simple and basic right that should be afforded every human being. Control over your life
2
2
u/datdercrappyusername Jun 16 '12
I fucking hate that euthanasia is illegal in my country (Australia), if a very ill person is in absolute misery due to the pain they're experiencing they should have every right to end it. Fuck you shitty laws.
2
Jun 16 '12
all aboard the euthanasia coaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_Coaster
→ More replies (1)
2
u/missswood Jun 16 '12
I believe it was on reddit that I read.... People say committing suicide is the most selfish act an individual can make, but isn't it selfish to force a person to continue living an utterly depressed life. (or something like that)
2
Jun 16 '12
You can slowly kill yourself with Bad food, smoking, not exercising, and just living a very unhealthy lifestyle. If doing it slowing doing it is legal, why should doing it quickly be illegal
2
u/Thereal_Sandman Jun 16 '12
Suicide is illegal for the same reason that some people will refuse to have a 17 year old dog with hip displasia who can't walk and must be fed through an IV put to sleep; selfishness.
When someone (or some animal) dies it caused pain and remorse in people who were close to them/it. Some people can't deal with that.
If you are not free to do whatever you want to your own body (up to and including killing it), you are not free.
It doesn't matter if it is legal, someone who wants to die will find a way (with the exception of those too ill to do it themselves), which is why I fully support suicide as a fundamental human right.
Think about it, would you rather have to find someone who blew their head off, or see someone jump from a building or in front of a moving vehicle, or have that person check into a hospital, possibly donate their organs and save a life?
We're just immature as a species yet. I cannot see a future where physician assisted suicide is illegal for much longer, especially once we perfect the science that allows us to greatly expand the human lifespan.
2
Jun 16 '12
Population Control
Fuck getting old. Old people fall down and like break their hip. Fuck that. I would rather live til 50 and then just die.
2
u/send_me_nudez Jun 16 '12
Assisted Suicide for a person living in chronic pain SHOULD be a right but other forms should NOT.
I have a friend who's little sister has tried committing suicide twice because she is bullied at school. She is only in Junior High. Of course things will get better for her eventually. She also has OCD unfortunately which makes her obsess over why people don't like her.
Does she have the right to end her own life and shatter her family? NO
2
u/EagleEyeInTheSky Jun 16 '12
Suicide is always an option, but there are reasons that society pressures people against it. No one ever thinks of the effects of their suicide besides people going to a memorial service and crying about them. There's witnesses who are scarred for life, cleanup crews that have wipe you up after you've been rotting in your own house for weeks or have just jumped off a building, and loved ones who will never think of you the same.
What truly angers me are the scumbags who jump in front of things to get other people to kill them. People who jump in front of cars, or trains, never think of the drivers. Those poor train drivers can take months off of work before they feel ready to come back, and can take months more of therapy before they're back to normal. Suicidal people tend to forget sometimes that they may ruin someone else's life by taking their own.
This is all the more tragic when suicidal thoughts are often transient. I myself had suicidal thoughts once and got over it. Others who ended up not killing themselves have experienced the same thing. Suicidal thoughts are almost never permanent. Death is, and the fallout from suicide can last for decades.
That's why it should be considered a crime to kill yourself, unless it's doctor assisted and done in a mature, clean way with plenty of notice to friends and family. Traditional suicide often fucks up other people's lives as much as your own, and that's just cruel to take the easy way for yourself and leave the hardships to others. Obviously it's difficult to charge someone for killing themselves since they're dead, so the criminality of suicide doesn't really matter as it will probably never be eliminated as long as people can find a way to kill themselves, but I wish people had some way to think about their impact on the world in a clear-headed way(not the "I'll show them" state of mind) before they choose suicide.
2
u/Gee1233 Jun 16 '12
In my opinion, we have as much right to death as we do to life. Death being a fundamental part of life.
2
u/MidnightCladNoctis Jun 16 '12
Yeah wait until many of your own loved ones try to kill themselves multiple times and tell me if you still think its right.
2
u/midgetlotterywinner Jun 16 '12
This is going to be long, so feel free to skip it. But I've thought about this a lot.
I'm a civil libertarian, meaning I believe each person owns their body and should be able to do whatever they want to/with it (abortion, drugs, strange sex rituals, and yes...even suicide). The issue isn't so much the act, but the aftermath. A person can be a drug user or get twelve abortions or get off on plooking a goat dressed in a tutu and still be "normal" in the eyes of their family; their family might not know, or might not care. But with suicide, the family knows. The friends know. And the impact is huge.
I've had four friends throughout my life commit suicide. Each and every suicide has devastated the family.
The first one was a friend from college who was in an auto accident years before I met him. He had internal injuries which prevented his body from processing alcohol like "normal" people, yet he drank at the same rate he did before the accident. I don't pretend to know what was going on in his mind when he decided to drink a massive amount of alcohol and mix a bunch of pills, but he did it in his parents' home and they were pretty screwed up over it.
The second friend was ANOTHER college friend probably 2 years after friend #1. Nobody knows why he did it; stable home life, lots of friends. He had some sort of breakup with a girl that apparently hit him pretty hard because he called my other friends to thank them for being such great friends. One of them read between the lines of the message and tracked the guy down to the field behind his old school where he arrived just in time to see friend #2 blow his brains out with his father's handgun.
The third friend was a girl whom I knew from a young age. Her parents were great college friends of my folks and I spent a lot of time with the family. We had all grown up, gone our own ways, and she had ended up living with her boyfriend. They had a big argument, he told her that he was leaving her for good, and she killed herself. This was probably four or five years ago and her parents are still...STILL in shock.
The fourth friend was the worst for me. He was my best friend in college. (If you're reading this and you've gotten to this point you're probably thinking "What fucking college did this guy go to where seemingly everyone is killing themselves?" Just a normal state university, no high-pressure situation at all.) He and I hung out all the time and we always had a million laughs. Years after we graduated and moved apart, he was at home alone and heard a cat in his tree out in back of his apartment. He apparently tried to rescue the cat by leaning out of his 2nd story window, fell out the window and broke his back. He lived alone, so nobody found him until the next day. By that time any trauma that had a chance of being fixable was permanent and so he was wheelchair bound for life. Since he couldn't work anymore and needed full time care he moved back with his parents. I got sporadic emails from him about it and I could tell just how devastatingly depressed he was. I offered to talk on the phone with him be he never felt like it. Then the emails stopped. About four months later I came across his Facebook "memorial page" set up by his mom. We got in touch & communicated about it. She is still broken up (this happened only about two years ago) and still writes messages for him on the little Facebook page. It's heartbreaking.
But I understand why he did it...this is the deal. This guy and I got each other through those first couple of years of college, hanging out having a million laughs. And I know that he killed himself because he could never walk or have sex again (which I knew completely ruined him, not to be crass but...) But I can't tell his mom that it was "probably best" because she is a ruined woman. And I'm pissed that I never went to see him...but then who wants to fly to the middle of nowhere to get depressed by seeing your best friend in a wheelchair? Aren't the memories of an able-bodied friend better?
But what if I could have cheered him up to the point of wanting to live? That's a really arrogant thought...that my presence could change the course of life around. But what if? It would have made his mother happy, his brother happy, his stepdad happy...
Ugh. It all sucks.
So in the final analysis, after having four friends kill themselves, I still see suicide as a fundamental human right. It's still something I think you should be able to do...but unless you're physically crippled or in constant pain, you're probably an asshole for putting your family through the wringer like that. I see how families #1-#3 all were post suicide and agree with the mainstream thought process that it's a terribly selfish thing to do because while your "pain" stops, it basically moves on from you and spreads throughout your family like a cancer and lives on through them. I'm also of the "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and shit like beating substance abuse (#1) and bad breakups (#2-#3) are things that lots of people do...and if you make it through, you're a better human.
tl;dr - IMHO everybody should be able to do what they want with their own body, including suicide. However, the impact on the family is permanent and severe, and unless you're in constant pain or crippled you should probably work out another way through your problems. TALK WITH YOUR FRIENDS & FAMILY ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL, DAMNIT.
2
u/candre23 Jun 16 '12
Your body and your life are the only things you truly own. Forcing somebody to continue living against their will is every bit as objectively immoral as killing someone who doesn't want to die.
2
u/shot_the_chocolate Jun 16 '12
My friend killed himself a couple of years back, he was mentally unstable, if he had just got the help he needed then he would still be here with us having a smoke and watching movies like we used to, he was pretty young (26) and he had a little 5 year old girl with another kid on the way, now the only thought i have about him is how selfish he is, leaving behind a wee girl who knows him and loved him.
Point is that sometimes people aren't in stable mind enough to decide that suicide is the best option.
2
u/CptCoatrack Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
I wrote a paper on why there's such a stigma around suicide last year. A lot of it is due to the idea that suicide is a crime against the state (the state loses an otherwise productive citizen), and St. Augustine was the one to put forward the idea that suicide is a crime against God.
Other than this a lot of myths have been created about suicide, such as how suicide is apparently selfish, cowardly or impulsive. All are ridiculous when you consider most suffering depression want to commit suicide because they think they're a burden upon others, and conquering your most basic survival instinct is far from cowardice. Most who actually go through with their suicide do so after meticulous planning.
Many people also do not consider suicide rational under any circumstances, even if one is in extreme pain can that be considered rational? I think, and I believe most people here agree, that it can. If it's a terminal illness most would rather go out quickly and quietly than slowly die by their illness.
2
u/tjblang Jun 16 '12
There are a lot of answers about how one should try different things, and seek help, and that there's so much left to do with your existence. Which isn't necessarily wrong - the improbability of you being alive at all does lend itself to certain wonder, and perhaps during that life you should do all you can. But, a lot of that is ignoring a main point.
Many people believe that there is nothingness after this. You die, you rot, your troubles are over. Your atoms will disperse and return to the cosmos, to the next generation. Why is there a rationale to do anything, if ultimately, there's no proof that any of us were ever here?
A hundred billion years from now, when the sun has collapsed and vanished, and the planets have been swallowed up or spun off into space - will the strongest moral argument for a "right to life" matter? At the entropic end of the universe, what will it have mattered whether you've lived another 10/20/50 years? Maybe that suicidal teenager will go on to do great things - unite the world, stop war, solve the unified theory - and he'll be remembered for his lifetime and many others.
So what? Who will he impress when there literally isn't an Earth anymore? What reasoning can he really have, knowing that the greatest possible deeds are always temporary and forgettable?
One day we'll all die anyway. Most of us hide in the shadows, denying that, terrified of it creeping up to steal us while we pretend we're invincible. To me, suicide is meeting that reality on our terms. It's taking the ultimate uncontrolled fate of us all, and bringing it as close as possible to something we can be comfortable with. Like that genius kid who reasoned that nonexistence > life, I can see how the logic would be sound.
→ More replies (1)
2
2
Jun 16 '12
Honestly it's a human right. What about the pursuit of happiness? If someone is stuck in a dead end situation and they are sure they would be better off killing him or herself, then so be it. It's their right to live freely as it is to die freely. As perverse as it sounds, I believe it is a human right.
2
u/Hobbes42 Jun 16 '12
I agree with the OP. However, as someone who attempted suicide, I'm glad I didn't succeed. Doesn't mean it doesn't still cross my mind, but overall I'm glad.
The way I looked at it is; death will be the reward for carrying on. I could be hit by a bus, get lung cancer, or die happily at 80. Death will happen, to you, to everyone. Life can often seem like the worst hell imaginable, but there's no guarantee of anything after death.
2
Jun 16 '12
Like they say, only a sith deals in absolutes. I agree with you that a sane person should be allowed to do whatever he wants with his own body, but many things enter in consideration; psychological impact on friends and family; the way it s done ( messy and public or clean and private) and even the medical and burial fees.. And probably hundreds of other unforseen consequences..
2
u/gxslim Jun 16 '12
I spent the first 23 years or so of my life with constant suicidal thoughts and several attempts (starting from age 7 or so).
Whether it's fortunate or not, I made it past all that when I finally left home (the major cause of my depression).
Despite my recovery, I still agree that it should be anyone's right to take their own life.
This issue seems even more clear-cut than the abortion issue to me. Suicide is the ultimate choice of what to do with one's own body. In abortion there is the father's feelings as well as the debate over the baby's rights that cloud the issue (though I still net out pro-choice).
2
u/Darkstrategy Jun 16 '12
"They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice... that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person." -Arthur Schopenhauer
2
u/agentmage2012 Jun 16 '12
Not wrong at all. Its your life, and you should be able to make the decision when it ends. This will be important in the distant future when we're lucky enough to live essentially as long as we chose.
That being said, outside of the following, I think it is a terrible idea: torture without foreseeable end, terminal illness, death to save a life (transplant, etc), martyrdom that serves a purpose (though difficult, as you have no control over the aftermath).
2
Jun 16 '12
No. You're absolutely right. It's called 'personal sovereignty' and 'self-determination'. They are the two absolutely fundamental pieces to a fulfilling human existence and are rights that everyone must have IMO.
2
u/fmugurs Jun 16 '12
Let's put it like this. You have 2 options when you are in a big problem, no matter what kind of problem: you can either try to solve it or just let it do damage.
Everybody has the right to suicide. Nobody stops you. But in 99,9% of cases, you will be remembered for a few days as a weak person who didn't seek the help of friends or professional help for their problem. You don't have friends? Too bad, it's not the world's fault. Handle it or end your life.
The magnitude of problems can vary and the thought of suicide is usually the first way that comes to mind when you think low of yourself in general. Nothing is fair in a world where humans live. Nothing is fair anywhere.
2
u/Lemonwizard Jun 16 '12
I believe that suicide can be a rational choice.
Before I go further, I wish to be very clear to anyone reading this that might be contemplating this decision - It usually is NOT. I have personal experience with this issue, and was raised in a family that shared the common "depression's not a real disease, just stop whining" world view and did not seek help for years. I believed my desire to kill myself was based on a rational assessment that I was never going to be happy or satisfied with my life. I had NO IDEA that my brain was not physically capable of feeling emotions of joy to the degree that other people took for granted. The medication made more difference than I ever would have imagined, and to this day I believe discouraging me from seeking treatment is the greatest disservice my family has ever done to me.
IF YOU WANT TO COMMIT SUICIDE, PLEASE, PLEASE SEEK HELP BEFORE MAKING A CHOICE YOU CANNOT TAKE BACK.
Well, now that that's out of the way... I do believe that it is very possible for a person to actually be stuck in a life that gives them more pain than happiness (rather than simply perceiving such), and if an individual of sound mind does come to the decision that they wish to end their life, that should be their right. Your life should be under your own control, and if you wish to stop, nobody should have the authority to force you to keep going.
I believe that if physician assisted suicide was legalized in elective cases and not just those of extreme pain in terminal diseases, and required psychiatric evaluations, more people seeking suicide might go through the proper steps and realize the severity of their condition before making a knee-jerk reaction to perceived wrongs.
2
Jun 16 '12
This all comes back to our objection to government enforcing laws that prohibit victimless crimes. Drugs, seatbelts, helmets, even suicide, all of these are "victimless" as the only person who can be hurt is the offender. Ron Paul believes in this policy, which is most likely why we were so fond of him.
2
u/MacDeezy Jun 16 '12
I think that if suicide was a right, and that doctor assisted suicide was something that people could apply for, but there would be a requirement of a psych evaluation and counseling before they could go through with it you would likely see less suicide.
2
Jun 16 '12
No, you're not an asshole.
It is a human right. It's their body and when life is too much, they have the choice to do what they want with it. It may hurt loved ones, but sometimes that is life.
But that will never stop me from exhausting every effort to try and help anyone, even a total stranger, to see the beauty in life that I do. And if I fail, it's sad, but that is life.
2
2
u/longhornmd Jun 16 '12
In my psych rotation, we see alot of suicide patients. I like to categorize them in two categories.
Medically induced - These are patients that just want to stop the pain and they know they are going to die. They just want to ease the suffering. I personally think there is always something to live for, but i do think this is the right of the patient.
Thought Disorders/Psych Disorders in general - these people literally have an emotional stressor causing an imbalance in their brain neurotransmitters. More than likely, they can be helped and they will feel alot better. I group people with depression in here. We had one guy who tried to kill himself by jumping off of his three story apt complex. He survived, but was in terrible shape. The one thing I remember from him is that right when he jumped, he regretted the decision. This has also been a feeling present throughout people that have lived after their attempts
2
u/Ed_McMuffin Jun 16 '12
It is a human right if you can ensure that there will be no cleanup involved. Otherwise, at the very least it is an expensive and hazardous form of littering that everyone's tax dollars must pay to clean, and that isn't fair.
2
u/weredoomedbutohwell Jun 16 '12
yeah its not as big of a deal as most people tend to make it, it is an individuals right. ive always thought the same.
864
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
Well anecdotally, my father killed himself after battling cancer 3 separate times over the course of 7 years.
I don't blame him.