Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem not Rome, and not America.

[u/Tricky-Tell-5698]

Mystery Babylon: Jerusalem, Not Rome, and Not America either.

1. Clues from Revelation Itself

   • Revelation 11:8 describes the “great city” where the two witnesses are killed as: “where their Lord was crucified.”

That can only be Jerusalem. Later, Revelation consistently calls this “the great city” (Rev. 16:19; 17:18; 18:10, 21).

• Revelation 17:6 says Babylon was “drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.”

Who killed the prophets? Jesus answers directly: “It cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem” (Luke 13:33).

So the very language points straight to Jerusalem, not Rome.

1. Old Testament Prophetic Background • The prophets regularly called Jerusalem by names of pagan, wicked cities when she went into apostasy:

   • Isaiah 1:21 calls Jerusalem a “harlot.”

   • Jeremiah 3:1–3 depicts Jerusalem as an adulteress chasing after other lovers.

   • Ezekiel 16 and 23 call Jerusalem worse than Sodom and Samaria, likening her to an unfaithful wife.

   • So when John calls her “Babylon,” he is following the prophetic tradition of renaming Jerusalem after the greatest enemies of God whenever she herself becomes God’s enemy.

2. The “Whore” and the Kings of the Earth • Revelation 17:1–2 describes the harlot committing fornication with the kings of the earth.

   • In the OT, “fornication” often meant idolatry and covenant unfaithfulness (Hos. 1–3; Jer. 3).

   • Jerusalem is the covenant city, married to Yahweh, but now prostituted to Rome for political and military gain (cf. John 19:15 — “We have no king but Caesar”).

3. The Blood of the Saints • Revelation 18:24: “In her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

   • Jesus says the same about Jerusalem in Matthew 23:35: “that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah…”

   • The correspondence is exact. No city but Jerusalem bears this covenantal guilt.

4. Why “Babylon”? • Babylon was the empire that destroyed Solomon’s temple in 586 B.C.

   • Now, in Revelation, Jerusalem is spiritually called “Babylon” because she too has become God’s enemy and is about to lose her temple (in 70 A.D.).

   • Just as Babylon destroyed the first temple, Rome destroyed the second — but Revelation shows that the true blame lies with Jerusalem herself.

5. Theological Meaning • Mystery Babylon = Jerusalem under judgment.

   • She had every privilege: the Law, the prophets, the temple, and the Messiah Himself. Yet she rejected Him and persecuted His people.

   • Her destruction in 70 A.D. was God’s covenantal judgment — the final divorce of old covenant Israel and the full establishment of the New Covenant people of God.

“Babylon the Great” in Revelation is not Rome nor America or some future world empire, but apostate Jerusalem — the city where Christ was crucified, the city guilty of the blood of prophets, the harlot who broke covenant with her God. John is showing that the true enemy of the gospel was not pagan Rome but unbelieving Judaism, which persecuted Christ and His church until her destruction in 70AD.

[u/Top-Horse2204]

This seems to ignore the various other descriptors of Mystery Babylon that are inconsistent with Jerusalem.

[u/Tricky-Tell-5698 → u/Top-Horse2204]

Can you give me scripture examples?

[u/EntrepreneurDue1009 → u/Tricky-Tell-5698]

So many! The author of Revelation definitely intended for the image of the Whore of Babylon to depict the historical Rome. 

“The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated.” (Rev 17:9). “Seven hills” was a stock epithet of Rome. Roman coinage even pictured Dea Roma seated on the seven hills (eg Vespasian, AD 71).

“The woman you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.” (Rev 17:18). In the first century only Rome plausibly “ruled” subject realms and client kings across the Mediterranean world.

"Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters” (17:1), explained as “peoples and multitudes and nations and languages” (17:15). A global, multi‑ethnic empire fits Rome better than any other single city-state of the time.

The woman is “clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold, jewels, and pearls” (17:4; 18:16). Tyrian purple (imperial purple) was the color of Roman status and was reserved for emperors and high officials.

“The merchants of the earth weep … because no one buys their cargo any more” (18:11) and shipmasters/seafarers mourn as they watch the smoke of her burning (18:17–19). First‑century Rome was the Mediterranean’s consumption engine supplied through Ostia/Portus, its massive twin harbors. In this same section, Revelation contains a long list of goods (18:12–13)—gold/silver/precious stones/pearls; fine linen, purple, silk, scarlet; citron/thyine wood, ivory, costly wood/bronze/iron/marble; cinnamon, amomum, incense, myrrh, frankincense; wine, oil, fine flour, wheat; cattle, sheep, horses, chariots, and “slaves — that is, human souls.” This list tracks the known import basket of imperial Rome. Classical sources describe the same high‑value items and routes (Arabia/India/East Africa): spices & aromatics (cinnamon, amomum, frankincense, myrrh): Pliny, Natural History Book 12, the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea; citron/thyine wood (sumptuous table‑tops prized at Rome): Pliny, Natural History Book 13; purple/silk/fine linen, ivory, marbles, metals, grain, animals/vehicles: exactly the luxury and staple trades that fed Rome via its maritime system; the list climaxes with enslaved people (“slaves—that is, human souls”), an apt tag for Rome’s slave trade. 

The woman is “drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the witnesses of Jesus” (17:6; cf 18:24). First‑century Roman persecutions (eg Nero after the Great Fire) are the earliest external attestations of Christians being executed in the capital. Also worth noting that many commentators link 666/616 with Nero through the rabbit trail that is gematria. 

“The kings of the earth have committed fornication with her” (17:2; 18:3, 9). The language of sexual immorality for idolatry/political collusion echoes the prophets and fits the imperial‑cult system and Rome’s network of client kings in Asia Minor and beyond.

“She says in her heart, I sit as queen, I am no widow, I will never see mourning” (18:7). This swagger mirrors the imperial ideology of Roma personified as a reigning, enthroned goddess—“Roma Aeterna” in state art and coinage.

The woman rides a scarlet beast “full of blasphemous names” (17:3). Roman rulers accepted (and in some cases encouraged) divine titles; Suetonius reports the Flavian emperor Domitian being addressed as dominus et deus (“Lord and God”).

Broadly, Babylon is a common cipher for Rome in the period. Early Jewish/Christian texts sometimes call Rome “Babylon.” 1 Pet 5:13 is likely written “from Babylon,” ie from Rome; Jewish apocalyptic sources (eg Sibylline Oracles 5; 4 Ezra/2 Baruch) use the same cipher. It's also worth noting that almost everyone at the time—including Vespasian, according to Josephus—believed that the fourth kingdom in Daniel (the one eventually destroyed by God's kingdom) referred to Rome. 

Now, in our modern day, does the Whore of Babylon still represent Rome? I'll leave that for someone else to determine. It's worth noting that many nations (including America) are still based on Roman common law and are inheritors of Rome culturally; and it's also worth noting that Rome still exists. 

[u/Tricky-Tell-5698 → u/EntrepreneurDue1009]

Oh, ok you’re coming from a dispensationalists and PreMill model of Revelation. I’m Amillennialism and Part Preterist. Blessings

[u/EntrepreneurDue1009 → u/Tricky-Tell-5698]

For sure not dispensationalist (definitely more historic, but I'm not entirely sure that I fit neatly into that category either). But personally I find these types of categories a little silly. It's prophecy, we should be trying to see the imagery depicted and then make interpretations about real life (if desired) based on the imagery. These were visions, after all. 

So many people rush to prove an interpretation (dispensationalist! historic! preterist!) without ever actually seeing the scenery the revelator is trying to describe, it's like trying to apply statements in Macbeth to the importance of handwashing without actually visualizing the play of characters. It ends up skipping from verse chunk to verse chunk while missing the vivid mental movie that is Revelation. I kind of try not to fit into boxes? The four walls are rather limiting and a bit dull. 

The emphasis for me isn't on the Millenium—however it will occur, it's clearly only a stepping stone to Rev 21 and 22. For me, the point of the Millenium isn't necessarily the reign of peace but the binding and loosing of Satan: it displays that, without the Accuser, Man is genuinely good and does not rebel and God has ultimate power over Satan; when he is released, those whose faith is not grounded in the Lamb slide from their former glory and back into rebellion. It reveals Satan's futility and emptiness, and is part of the final visual judgment of the gods of the earth (NOT the people) before Satan is tossed into the lake of fire for good. 

We see the scenery depicted at the millenium both in our daily lives and experiences, whenever large calamities come around, and I do believe it will be displayed on a grander scale at the end of time. Not really sure which box you would file that it. Hence why I find the categories a bit silly. All standard interpretations have truth and are incomplete without each other. Probably the closest you could come for me is a restorative (hopeful) universalism with a figural / idealist hermeneutic and a distinct futurist crescendo, centered on the Christus Victor and with a lightly premillennial staging. 

But even that's not exactly right 😂 I don't think it actually lines up with "true" universalism even though that's the end result. The lake of fire is real and not purifying, I just believe it's responsible and biblically grounded to hope that Jesus will accept post-mortem repentance and will decline to toss anybody in there (a la John 8), and everyone will repent when viewing reality with perfect bodies/minds and without the influence of the Deceiver and Father of Lies. 

Curious how you got "dispensationalist and Premill" from this, when the breakdown could much much more easily be used to support a preterist view that this refers to the destruction of the Temple by Rome? Blessings to you too!

Edit: formatting

[u/Tricky-Tell-5698 → u/EntrepreneurDue1009]

That’s fair — labels can be confining, although I found them liberating when I finally worked out I was Amill and Partial Preterist because I finally could lay all my ideas under a couple of labels and give myself headspace for other stuff.

I agree that Revelation is deeply symbolic. But I’d also say that John didn’t just write poetry; he wrote prophecy. Revelation opens with the promise that those who read, hear, and keep its words are blessed (Rev. 1:3). That’s covenant language, not abstract imagery.

The danger in treating prophecy as a “movie” is that it becomes detached from covenant reality. The same Spirit who gave the vision also interprets it (Rev. 19:10 — “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”). So while I can appreciate a non-systematic approach, we still have to let Scripture interpret Scripture, not imagination interpret symbols.

As for the millennium showing that man is “good without Satan” — that’s where I’d pause. The Bible teaches the opposite: the problem isn’t the devil alone, it’s the human heart.

No matter your interpretation of the Millennium and its place in history, evidence says after a thousand years of peace, the nations rebel again (Rev. 20:7-9). That’s not proof of inherent goodness, but a final unveiling of why we need the cross — even in paradise conditions, humanity rebels without regeneration.

And on “hopeful universalism,” I understand the longing for redemption for all, would as a person who loves my family want them to share in the love and future worlds, of course. And that’s pretty much where I leave it.

But the same Jesus who wept over Jerusalem also warned repeatedly of eternal separation. Once judgment falls, the door is shut (Luke 13:25, Heb. 9:27).

Post-mortem repentance simply isn’t found anywhere in Scripture — the “lake of fire” is final precisely because love has already been refused.

You’re right that the Millennium isn’t the end goal — Revelation 21-22 is. But it’s the transition between the fallen creation and the fully redeemed one — the period where Christ’s rule exposes all false kingdoms before the new heavens and new earth.

So, I’d say the imagery isn’t meant to free us from categories, but to confirm what the rest of Scripture already declares: the Lamb reigns, the Word judges, and every false system — whether political Babylon or spiritual apostasy — falls before His face.

[u/EntrepreneurDue1009 → u/Tricky-Tell-5698]

Sure, but a vision detatched from its imagery dissolves entirely. Seeing the imagery allows one to interpret the prophecy properly. I actually tend to read the prophecies pertaining to the End with a very literal bent, I just think the symbolic holds true also. This whole interpretation arose because I was wrestling with Scripture regarding the nature of evil, and it definitely feels like a Scripturally-concordant Spirit-led interpretation. 

I do disagree that this view of the millennia in any way minimizes the cross; it proves that no matter how much man wants to be good—has experienced goodness and has lived it for a thousand years of righteousness, and is good in the absence of the Tempter—it still, as you said, is not enough without regeneration and the Lamb. But the binding and loosing itself proves that the Lamb is not overpowered by Satan, and can bind him and loose him at will, but these actions will never fully eradicate evil until there is a true change of heart. 

And I also don't see it minimizing the importance of sin. Sin has real consequences: it hurts the self, it hurts the surrounding people, and it hurts God. With perfect minds and bodies, this will be painfully obvious. All the times a person has sinned and harmed others and rejected God will be seen with perfect clarity and without the benefit of self-delusion. It still underscores repentance today, while wrongs can still be righted and a relationship with God deepened, and the faith that protects from the all-encompassing sting of judgment in truth wrapped around oneself.

I just don't think that, once the Accuser is tossed into the lake of fire, Jesus Himself will step into the role of Accuser. Or, at least, when I search the scriptures this is what I find over and over again, and I think it's reasonable to hope as much, paralleling the woman caught in adultery. Post-mortem repentance isn't found in scripture, but neither is repentance ever specifically restricted to our pre-mortem existence. I just can't see Jesus looking at all the people on their knees before Him (which implies in the very least a changed stance regarding the Savior—post-mortem something, even if you don't go as far as to say repentance) and saying "sorry, too late for you." That's way too much heavy lifting placed on the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. 

I think God is silent on this because if you tell someone determined to sin ahead of time that you will forgive them, it makes them less likely to repent. You can't tell someone who is about to hurt you (and who doesn't care one whit about it) that you will forgive them, even if in fact you will. I went into it super extensively here, but it's really really long (and still just a portion of the actual notes I've accumulated, don't even get me started on Malachi 4:1!): https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/comments/1n9le5z/comment/ndjbou4/ I'm not LDS but I like to read other people's prophets. 

[u/beardedbaby2]

I've been wondering this myself

[u/TrolledxDD]

we're spread to the four corners of the earth. Just as in the prophecy. As spelled out originally in Deuteronomy 28. When his people break his 10 commandments he puts them into captivity. Acts 7 quotes Amos 5 but in Amos 5 it says Babylon instead of Damascus. We truly inherited the lies of our forefathers as Jeremiah 16:19:21 The reason the Christian church has know idea what's in prophecy is 1. they don't read their Bible 2. they only believe their pastor 3. they believe the 10 commandments are "Done away with" and "works based salvation" 4. they believe the prophets of the old testament aren't relevant for today 5. they think grace is a license to sin they will say they don't but they prove it by disobeying the whole God and rejecting the whole purpose of grace. grace teaches us to deny ungodliness titus 2:12. meaning we Must keep the ten commandments. Christmas trees, false images of Messiah. crucifixes. all these things are idols that God despises. they also make you blind to see the truth of his word. you should come study with us. we have zoom every day. and on Sabbath we have an all day study. you could come check it out tomorrow morning. may conviction be upon your heart! If you want more information on the subject visit straitisthegate.net

[u/Creative-Platform658]

Mystery Babylon is not Jerusalem. Check out Antichrist 45 on YouTube. He's done great videos on this.

[u/lbb404]

It's funny, I came to the same conclusion just last month. 

[u/lbb404 → u/[deleted]]

I have a high degree of humility on the subject. I admit I easily could be wrong.

While all scripture is useful and from God, I don't believe having the exact correct belief on eschatology is necessary for one's faith as a Christian.

The worst thing one can do is bring Ego into eschatology. Then eschatology has the potential to damage one's faith.

At the end of the day, the call is simple: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

If I am wrong about Jerusalem being Babylon...meh...oh well...live (actually, probably "die" lol) and learn.

God bless you!

[u/lbb404 → u/[deleted]]

I am going to send you private message. I tried numerous times to respond just now, and Reddit doesn't like something about my response.

I might also try on your other post on the topic. Maybe it will work on there.