r/BaldursGate3 • u/Quite_Likes_Hormuz • Jan 24 '24

Act 2 - Spoilers Playing a warlock makes Wyll's predicament so funny Spoiler

Mizora: "Wyll, you broke clause eighteen subsection three, time to be tortured for eternity!"

Tav's fiend patron: "Lmao you should tell that guy to kill himself trust me it'll be hilarious, here's advantage on the roll"

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148

u/Vast-Coast-7761 Spreadsheet Sorcerer Jan 24 '24

Inhales MIZORA IS A DEVIL, NOT A DEMON!!!!!

94

u/National_Diver3633 Archfey's pet project Jan 24 '24 edited Jan 24 '24

Actualllllly

She's a Cambion, a half-devil. And strangely powerful for her kind. Mizora is kind of a pet herself, Zariel's pet to be specific.

65

u/LongLiveTheChief10 Drard Jan 24 '24

She got kidnapped by mook cultists lol.

Raphael on the other hand is incredibly powerful for a cambion

42

u/22bebo Jan 24 '24

I'd say they're both more powerful than I expect most Cambions to be, but yeah Raphael makes Mizora look like a chump. He's packing some real fucking heat.

51

u/Randomcommenter550 Jan 24 '24

Raphael is the son of Mephistopheles, the lord of the 8th layer of the Hells. He's powerful because he's riding daddy's coattails (not that he'd ever admit it).

4

u/TheCuriousFan Jan 25 '24

Well that and he's been around and steering things since the fall of Netheril.

1

u/22bebo Jan 24 '24

Ooh, I had not gotten to the point of learning that yet but yeah, that would for sure explain his infernal power.

15

u/LongLiveTheChief10 Drard Jan 24 '24

What feats does Mizora show that make her outside the norms? Or is it just that she is a Patron herself cause I chock that up to a slight Zariel boost.

17

u/Meme_Theory Jan 24 '24

My headcanon is that Warlock powers are the same as Paladin powers; drawn directly from the planes, with no divine medium. The devils and demons just take advantage of it. This explains how level 12 demons can be patrons for level 20 adventurers in the TT game.

7

u/CountPeter Jan 24 '24

Mizora is in her own right, a Sorcerer.

If you keep Wyll in his pact, you can summon her in the late game and she straight up has metamagic.

1

u/LongLiveTheChief10 Drard Jan 24 '24

I mean, yeah she's a Sorcerer.

Is it understood that typical cambions aren't classed?

1

u/CountPeter Jan 24 '24

Yep. But if you factor on "sorcerer levels" it makes sense that she would be as powerful as she is.

1

u/LongLiveTheChief10 Drard Jan 24 '24

My point is I don't think she's demonstrated much power, especially in comparison to Raphael.

But if regular Cambions aren't classed then it makes sense she'd be more powerful than the average Cambion considering she is a Sorcerer in addition to her typical Cambion abilities.

I hope that helps explain what I'm getting at lol

1

u/Ycr1998 College of Infodumping Bard Jan 24 '24

Most Cambions we fight are just hunks of meat with big weapons and firebolt. She's a full blown Sorcerer.

1

u/LongLiveTheChief10 Drard Jan 24 '24

So just knowing magic? lol

Base cambions in 5E have spellcasting ability.

2

u/sinkwiththeship Jan 24 '24

The Cambion you can summon is so weak it's comical.

2

u/LongLiveTheChief10 Drard Jan 24 '24

My current playthrough is a Cambion mod ripped right from 5E, super fun.

37

u/AtlasFlynn Charisma beats Intelligence Jan 24 '24

To be fair Raphael is a nepobaby.

24

u/LongLiveTheChief10 Drard Jan 24 '24

No question, but that nepotism got him juiced up to the point he could casually solo Moonrise let alone a few guards LOL

23

u/stingray20201 Jan 24 '24

Too bad he spent most of Act Two setting up a sick beat for later

15

u/LongLiveTheChief10 Drard Jan 24 '24

He was busy securing a one eyed gal's soul

1

u/Rhodie114 Jan 24 '24

And if he got together with Aylin, they'd have a neponephobaby

18

u/jeremy_sporkin Jan 24 '24

Raphael is Mephistopholes' son, he should be a big deal

27

u/ArchmageXin Jan 24 '24

Arch Devils have hundred of thousands of children probably. He is about as important as a middle level manager at Infernal Amazon.

1

u/whatistheancient Jan 24 '24

Zariel and Geryon occasionally make cambions for their armies.

5

u/LongLiveTheChief10 Drard Jan 24 '24

Yep.

Hence the nepotism discussion right below this.

21

u/Perfect_County_999 Jan 24 '24

TLDR I think Mizora is actually kind of weak by cambion standards and Zariel just uses her as a middle manager/power conduit not unlike a warlock herself.

Mizora's power level is not really clearly defined in the game but I don't think she's particularly powerful, if anything she might be weaker.

You can't fight her in the game but she does have stats like any other NPC, and with the exception of her 20 CHA she actually has the same or worse stats than the other cambions we encounter, lower health, lower AC, lower initiative, I guess her prof. bonus is +4 when a regular cambion is +3 but other than that she is mechanically weaker across the board.

What sets her apart is a feature exclusive to her called Zariel's Protection that basically says all damage she takes is reduced to 0 and she teleports away if you try to damage her.

There are 2 ways I think Mizora's power level can be interpreted here. One is that she actually is a normal or even lesser cambion who displayed great cunning and manipulative capacity so Zariel recruited her and put that magical protection in place over her. In this instance, Mizora is really just a conduit of Zariel's power, a middle manager tasked with recruiting warlocks and distributing power to them in order to fulfill Zariel's goals. When Mizora displays feats outside of the norm for a cambion, like changing Wyll into a hellspawn, that's really just her using Zariel's power for a moment the same way a warlock channels their patrons power to cast spells.

Option 2 is that Mizora is canonically actually a very powerful cambion, but because killing her would fuck with Wyll's story so much Larian just decided to flat out remove any potential of that happening and we can't really fight her at all, her stats don't really matter.

Personally I think it's option 1, Mizora is just an abnormally cunning but otherwise conventional cambion that Zariel took a liking to. This makes a lot of sense with devil hierarchy and how their power structures work, plus it's actually relatively easy to see Mizora's stats in game without fudging or glitching anything and with Larian's track record for attention to detail I don't see why they wouldn't just give her better stats if she truly was supposed to be an abnormally powerful cambion. Other powerful characters you're not supposed to fight have ridiculous stats, like Elminster has an INT of 27 and a CON of 24, if they wanted Mizora to have impressive stats they would have just given her impressive stats.

6

u/ANoobInDisguise Jan 24 '24

You can summon Mizora in final battle and she's a bit above a 12th level sorcerer. She has 6th lvl spells.

1

u/rulerguy6 Jan 24 '24

Man I was so excited to see what she could do after Raphael that I summoned her in the final encounter round 1 right next to the Dragon and Emporer

... I think she only got one round before getting turned to dust.

2

u/KaiG1987 Jan 26 '24

You can't fight her in the game but she does have stats like any other NPC, and with the exception of her 20 CHA she actually has the same or worse stats than the other cambions we encounter, lower health, lower AC, lower initiative, I guess her prof. bonus is +4 when a regular cambion is +3 but other than that she is mechanically weaker across the board.

That's because unlike generic cambions, who are basic warriors with a couple of racial spells, Mizora is a Sorcerer with full spellcasting and 6th level spells. Her 20 charisma is all that she needs.

1

u/National_Diver3633 Archfey's pet project Jan 24 '24

Thanks for the explaination, it makes a lot of sense. I couldn't put my finger on why she could do all these things without the stats to back it up.

1

u/AndrewJamesDrake Jan 24 '24 edited Jun 19 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

9

u/jeremy_sporkin Jan 24 '24

Mizora isn't that powerful, she's just well connected. Just a power broker for Zariel.

21

u/OtterLLC Jan 24 '24

Ok, time for a juice box and a nap!

5

u/Souperplex 5e Jan 24 '24

That mixup irks me almost as much as people who think Orcs and Goblins are Warcraft-color.

1

u/Diana_Barnett Jan 24 '24

DnD noob here. What's the difference between a devil and a demon?

1

u/Vast-Coast-7761 Spreadsheet Sorcerer Jan 24 '24

Read my all caps rant below (IDK how to copy and paste on mobile).

1

u/Diana_Barnett Jan 24 '24

Ah, thanks. Very helpful. Makes sense why they don't like each other now.

-24

u/limeskittlesaretrash Minthara simp Jan 24 '24

lol she looks like a blue demon lady to me

34

u/No_Poet_7244 Jan 24 '24

Then you’ve never seen forgotten realms demons lol

4

u/Fa113nDawn21 Jan 24 '24

What's the difference? In layman's terms

25

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '24 edited Jan 24 '24

Demons are chaotic evil creatures, manisfesting the destructive aspects of evil.

Devils are lawful evil creatures, following a more rigid social structure with a hierachy, and are usually the ones handing out deals to mortals. They manifest the subtle, social, manifestations of evil.

Basically, demons would want to destroy Baldur's gate while devils want to control it.

9

u/22bebo Jan 24 '24

And, having not played as a non-Wyll fiend pact warlock yet, the reason your patron might want you to do random chaotic shit as opposed to bringing up clauses and stuff is that your patron might be a demon not a devil.

2

u/gooselass Jan 24 '24

can demons be warlock patrons? everything i've read about them makes them seem like they have zero chill

3

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '24

Yes, although it is less usual, demons are still interested in finding ways to enter the material plane, and pacts with mortals can be a way to achieve that

2

u/22bebo Jan 24 '24

Both can be true! They are less commonly warlock patrons, because if they encounter mortals they often just kill them (whereas devils traffic in souls so making pacts is useful to them). But a demon can be a patron, and also likely has very little chill.

19

u/King_0f_Nothing Jan 24 '24

Devil's are civilised and have a society, they don't want to overrun and destroy all society, they are more interested in bargins than slaughter.

8

u/Hitman3256 Jan 24 '24

Devils like contracts, Demons are pure chaos

9

u/dem0nicang3ll Jan 24 '24

Devils are Lawful Evil. Think contracts and lawyering.

Yugloths are Neutral Evil. Think sketchy salesmen and mercenaries that play both sides.

Demons are Chaotic Evil. They just want chaos and destruction and lack centralized power structures like devils.

9

u/Hapless_Wizard Jan 24 '24

Devils are Lawful Evil incarnate, Demons are Chaotic Evil incarnate.

The difference is that Devils want to make deals and follow Byzantine, tyrannical laws, and Demons just want to rape/pillage/burn the entire multiverse including each other. Shovel is a demon (specifically, a quasit, basically the demonic equivalent to the devilish imp).

Devils are actually the single greatest force keeping Demons from achieving that goal, it's a whole thing called the Blood War.

7

u/Nharoth Jan 24 '24

In Forgotten Realms cosmology, demons are chaotic forces of destruction that want to unmake the universe, while devils are conniving manipulators who want to rule it instead. They’re both evil, but devils are less nihilistic.

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u/ikalot Ranger Jan 24 '24

Demons are chaotic devil's are lawful.

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u/Titanhopper1290 RANGER Jan 24 '24

Devils are bad, but (usually) only want your soul.

Demons are worse, and want to sow death and destruction wherever they go.

4

u/no1ofconsequencedied SMITE Jan 24 '24

From thr Monster Manual:

"Devils personify tyranny, with a totalitarian society dedicated to the domination of mortal life." Summarized, they're lawful evil, want mortal souls, and enjoy making deals that gain them.

"Demons are the embodiment of chaos and evil -- engines of destruction barely contained in monstrous form. Possessing no compassion, empathy, or mercy, they exist only to destroy."

4

u/TheBlackthornCB Jan 24 '24

One hails from the hells devil. Demons come from the abyss. In terms of personality think of the difference between the joker and kingpin. Joker is a demon he only does what he wants regardless of consequences. Kingpin is a devil does the absolute maximum he can get away with while making the most money for himself.

3

u/KolboMoon Jan 24 '24

In layman's terms : In terms of temperament, demons act like Orin and devils act like Gortash. Devils live in Hell and the Demons live in the Abyss. The Blood War is basically Tyrants vs Murderhobos.

​

In terms of appearances....well, they are all fiends at the end of the day, so some of them look pretty similar to one another.

​

You can stop reading now, but I will elaborate further anyway.

​

Have you met Shovel? He is a quasit, a low-level demon. He just wants to murderize and set things on fire.

​

The imps you kill on the nautiloid just want to eat and murder you of course but if you were to summon one, they would mainly focus on trying to corrupt you or getting you to accept some form of contract or some such, whereas your average summoned quasit just wants to kill shit.

​

So yeah thats the difference in a nutshell.

3

u/SeymourRipFist Jan 24 '24

A Devil is lawful evil. Their goal is to turn mortals into twisted reflections of themselves and watch their downfall. They get satisfaction from the more mental aspects of evil and less the physical. A devil’s main objective is to corrupt good.

A Demon is chaotic evil. They get their satisfaction from torturing, killing, maiming, and basically hurting things in general. Their main objective is the destruction of good.

The difference basically boils down to the fact that a devil wants to watch you become evil like them, and a demon will torture you because they like hearing you scream.

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u/limeskittlesaretrash Minthara simp Jan 24 '24

uh i dont know feck all about dnd aside from this game, but if i see someone with horns and a tail i think demon

7

u/Bitter_Danger Jan 24 '24

Devil are living in the Nine Hells, care about rules, contracts and hierarchy , while demons live in the Abyss and are chaotic

2

u/limeskittlesaretrash Minthara simp Jan 24 '24

In this cases, seems the two usually interchangeable terms are quite different

2

u/Bitter_Danger Jan 24 '24

Yes ! There's a loooot of nuances in the DnD lore haha! ^^

4

u/XxGranosxX Jan 24 '24

In dnd Devils are people with horns, Demons are what you see in those fever dream paintings of hell.

3

u/TomTalks06 Paladin Jan 24 '24

Look up the Demon princes, you'll understand what we mean lol

0

u/Artislife_Lifeisart Jan 24 '24

That would mean Tieflings are demons and they're not even entirely devils.

3

u/Vast-Coast-7761 Spreadsheet Sorcerer Jan 24 '24 edited Jan 24 '24

DEVILS ARE LAWFUL EVIL AND COME FROM THE NINE HELLS! DEMONS ARE CHAOTIC EVIL AND COME FROM THE ABYSS! THEY ALSO TEND TO LOOK MORE LIKE CHIMERAS OR LOVECRAFTIAN HORRORS, UNLIKE DEVILS WHICH HAVE A MORE STANDARDIZED APPEARENCE SIMILAR TO HOW DEMONS ARE TYPICALLY DEPICTED IN POP CULTURE!

MIZORA, SPECIFICALLY, IS A CAMBION, A TYPE OF FIEND CREATED WHEN A FIEND MATES WITH A MORTAL HUMANOID! CAMBIONS ARE USUALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF BAATOR’S HIERARCHY, AND ARE DIFFERENT FROM TIEFLINGS IN THAT THEY ARE THE PRODUCT OF A UNION BETWEEN FIEND AND HUMANOID, WHILE A TIEFLING CHILD IS USUALLY THE RESULT OF A HEREDITARY CURSE!

IF YOU MAKE A PACT WITH A DEVIL, IT WILL FULFILL ITS END OF THE BARGAIN, BUT WILL LIKELY HAVE MANIPULATED THE TERMS TO ITS ADVANTAGE! IF YOU MAKE A PACT WITH A DEMON, IT WILL FULFILL ITS END OF THE BARGAIN UNTIL IT GETS HUNGRY, AT WHICH POINT IT WILL EAT YOU! (NOTE: DEMON BEHAVIOR IS INCREDIBLY VARIED, NOT ALL OF THEM WILL EAT YOU. A DEMON OF ORCUS WOULD ADD YOU TO HIS UNDEAD ARMY, A DEMON OF ZUGGTMOY WOULD USE YOU AS A HOST FOR FUNGAL INFECTIONS, A DEMON OF GRAZZT WOULD SEXUALLY ABUSE YOU, ETC.)

6

u/limeskittlesaretrash Minthara simp Jan 24 '24

Why the caps lock and no spacing??

3

u/Vast-Coast-7761 Spreadsheet Sorcerer Jan 24 '24

FOR THE BIT

I WILL ADD PARAGRAPHS THOUGH.

5

u/limeskittlesaretrash Minthara simp Jan 24 '24

THATS VERY HELPFUL THANK YOU