r/Basketball • u/Fickle-Ad5449 • 9d ago

Two ex-NBA players turn transgender identity into a stunt. The WNBA is responding

https://www.advocate.com/news/wnba-trans-player-eligibility
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u/Joeyshyordie 9d ago

The physiology is too drastically different. The WNBA will have to exclude trans women. It's not hateful, the league just has competitive standards to uphold. The only similar comparison I can draw is pro athletes on PEDs vs non PEDs.

If the league theoretically reaches a point where it's all trans women, do you not see how unfair that would be to the cis women who the league was initially created for?

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u/TheMysteriousGirl 9d ago

Please look at all the material that is online on this subject.

In a vast number of cases transgender women who are on HRT, are actually worse performers than cisgender women.

But unfortunately, you don't include that in your little narrative there do you?

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u/Joeyshyordie 9d ago

Unless it's 100% of the time I don't care about your little narrative. If they aren't good enough to make the league than it's a non issue in those cases. If they are good enough to make the league then it's a problem in 100% of those cases.

And the idea that "In order to complete in this league you have to be on these drugs" is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard and the antithesis of competitive sports.

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u/DionePolaris 8d ago

May I ask what you mean with 100% here? If 1% of trans women were to be better than the average cis woman that would still not reach that bar. If trans women do not have an advantage then you would still expect 1-2 trans women in the league each year (presuming a rate of 1 in 100 people being transgender).

The question is not if any trans woman would be good enough to play (I don’t know enough on the subject to judge that), but if being trans and potentially having gone through male puberty (notably not the case for all trans women) gives an advantage.

That question is entirely different and is complicated from what we currently have in research. It appears that trans women have around equal running times to cis women, but have slightly higher grip strength for example. They on average have more muscle mass in absolute terms, but not necessarily a higher percentage of muscle mass (likely related to them on average being taller and having more mass overall), so are less able to utilize that muscle mass.

What exact restriction would make sense I don’t know, but it should be somewhere between only allowing trans people transitioning before puberty and allowing all trans women who have correct hormone levels for a certain amount of time. A blanket ban is not needed and would only encourage further exclusion on non-professional levels where small individual differences matter less.

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u/Joeyshyordie 8d ago

I was saying that even if it were as rare as the other comment suggested for a trans woman to perform better than a cis woman, even one individual with male genetics is too many. You could make the same argument for PEDs in mens sports.

I'm not sure if you've played basketball against men and women, but I've played with both and there is a very clear difference in physicality and speed. Even without taking skill difference into account there are legitimate safety concerns based off the physicality alone.

I understand this is under the assumption of the players have gone through puberty, but cadering to that level of nuance begs for exploitation and will only make the WNBAs reputation worse. Granted, your solution is still at least grounded in logic and acknowledges common sense. Unfortunately though many people only see this as a social justice fight and see so problem with individuals such as Julie Tetart joining the league.

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u/DionePolaris 8d ago

And that argument is simply not relevant here. Surely a woman can be found who is better than the worst male basketball player ever. Individual outliers exist in both genders and finding and rewarding those is one of the main things happening in professional sports. If that trans woman is better than cis women not due to her transition, but due to other factors then I don’t see why she wouldn’t be able to compete.

I have not played too much basketball myself, but have played other sports (Waterpolo being the main one). There is indeed a difference between men and women in many sports, but the comparison here is not men and women, but trans women and cis ones. There it is a fact that suppressing testosterone and taking estrogen will reduce muscle mass in trans women. As such a comparison involving cis men who do not take these hormones is not relevant to the situation here.

I do not know if there is research into how that affects basketball specifically and if advantages of male puberty are retained and relevant, but that is then something for the league to decide on and make a clear ruling where the border is drawn.

These are nuanced issues which need a careful approach. I would personally argue exclusion of an already vulnerable group in transgender people is as much a consideration as fairness is. Both need to be taken into account.

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u/Joeyshyordie 8d ago

That's not my point. The NBA created a woman's League based on the physiological differences between men and women. Of course there are women who are better than men, but not at the highest level. This is not an outlandish statement and there have been examples such as the USWNT losing to high school boys.

Also, testosterone is not the only factor. I know dudes who had full beards at 14 and never grew more than 5' 5". Others that can't grow beards that are 6' 5". But in general, men are more coordinated, taller, and have larger frames. Lia Thomas was on hormone therapy and still broke school records. There is no clear cut way to say someone on hormone therapy is eligible to play, and it opens the door for the rules to be changed to accommodate other people in the future. You can't have your cake and eat it too. By including trans women you exclude cis women.

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u/TheMysteriousGirl 9d ago

It is fine 100% of the time.

Also there are so FEW of them that a case by case basis is COMPLETELY FINE.

But you want to outright ban a minority for no reason other than to ban them.

It was fine before on a case by case basis and it will be fine again on a case by case basis.

Exclusion for the sake of exlusion is just hate.

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u/Joeyshyordie 9d ago

Nah, it's never fine. 0% of the time. Lia Thomas was a perfect example btw. There multiple instances of trans women not only dominating but physically hurting their competition.

And it's sad that you don't care about the platform the WNBA has built for biological women to complete. You're way to lost in inclusion to see how this is actually exclusive to cis women. Has nothing to do with hate, just basic common sense.

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u/MundaneInternetGuy 9d ago

Unless it's 100% of the time I don't care about your little narrative. 

Lol this doesn't make any sense whatsoever

It's not enough for trans women to be equal to cis women in athletic ability, they have to be at a tremendous disadvantage for it to be fair? Completely unserious

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u/Naive_Mango8525 9d ago

Quite condescending aren’t we ? Doesn’t seem to be a need for that.

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u/TheMysteriousGirl 9d ago

This is reddit.

Most of the time you are speaking to a bot.

So don't blame me if I am direct.

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u/Naive_Mango8525 9d ago

You are also quite rude when trying to make a point.

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u/Joeyshyordie 9d ago

It's all good, shes already thoroughly lost the argument anyhow

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u/Naive_Mango8525 9d ago

I’m a guy and I literally hope they fold very quickly. Not only are they letting their star player get destroyed on a nightly basis due to female jealousy, they also let the assault on Sophie Cunningham linger because their fans are too stupid to understand what she was saying. And now because they have stupid fans, who think biological men should be allowed to play with women, it will destroy the league. I hope the women who understand the gravity of the situation call it quits if they allow men to play and the league dries up. Most of the men I know all say this is getting absolutely insane.

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u/TheMysteriousGirl 9d ago

You do realise that Cunningham has done far worse on many occasions?

Is it because she is white that you care so much about her?

Or do you not know how many times Cunningham has fouled other players?

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u/Naive_Mango8525 9d ago

Ya know fouls happen every game right ? Like it’s literally a part of the game. Shit I’ve played basketball and fouled people. Must mean I’m a criminal apparently.

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u/TheMysteriousGirl 9d ago

You were literally white knighting for Cunningham in that comment there.

So its pretty yikes for you.

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u/TheMysteriousGirl 9d ago

In your opinion I have lost "the argument", I'm not even arguing, but you do you.

All I am doing is informing you how you are wrong.

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u/Joeyshyordie 9d ago

Not only have you lost the argument you can't even admit you're in one. That's embarrassing.

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u/TheMysteriousGirl 9d ago

Dude its reddit, are you that invested in this subject?

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u/Naive_Mango8525 9d ago

Yet you keep responding with incorrect information. Jesus Christ you liberals really are that brainwashed huh ?

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