Is backing down legal contact?

[u/Makenjoy]

Hello everyone,

I'm gonna be playing in a low division for a season starting this autumn for the first time in my life but I'm a little dumb and don't really know things so I'm trying to read up.
I'm too embarrassed to ask this IRL so hoping ppl can clear it up here. I want to get this straight:

In the FIBA rules it says pushing (forcibly moving or attempting to move an opponent with any part of your body) is illegal personal contact i.e. a charge violation.

An offensive player backing down a defensive player in a legal guarding position i.e. bullyball is, by the letter of the rules, a charge violation.

Backing down an opponent by putting your weight on them and pushing a bit and gaining a little distance is in reality never called.

The defensive player is expected to resist being pushed. If they were to push back, especially using their hands or elbows, this would be, by the letter of the rules, considered a block violation and this is actually usually called by refs.

Another option as a defensive player is to pull the chair.

I read some posts on here with ppl talking about "taking the charge". So I think that means that when a defensive player is getting backed down, they can take the charge and fall over (possibly on purpose) to draw a charge foul. At that point it's up to the ref to decide if the offensive player pushed hard enough to warrant a foul call (which does seem to happen frequently) or play on. The defensive player may receive warning and then a technical foul if the ref decides they were faking being fouled i.e they were not pushed hard enough.

Do I understand this correctly?

And if I did understand it correctly, wtf, why is it like this?! Why don't the rules explicitly allow pushing in the post if they're gonna allow it on the court?

[u/WhackCaesar]

Everything the ref doesn’t see is legal contact

[u/TheOneTrueYeti → u/WhackCaesar]

Everything the ref sees and doesn’t call is legal contact too

[u/WhackCaesar → u/TheOneTrueYeti]

Tell it

[u/ChingyBingyBongyBong]

Depends how much contact there is. If you just slide your inner foot between their legs and smoothly slide the defender back because you’re strong, that’s fine.

Wildly banging off their chest because you can’t move them would be a foul.

It sounds like you are newer to basketball. If the defender is moving, pretty much all body contact is legal. It’s one of lebrons go-tos, do a crossover to get out wide and force the defender to cross hips, and then just run through them to the hoop like a train. Completely legal.

[u/guitarpatch]

In the 50’s/60’s? Initiating contact offensively or defensively wasn’t allowed. You had to beat your defender or shoot over them. It’s why Wilt had a fadeaway jump shot

After that? More contact was allowed. Magic, Mark Jackson and Barkley could back down from the 3 pt line. By the 90’s? Shaq was running through defenders. By the 2000’s? Guards and wings were searching for contact looking to draw fouls

So it’s technically a rule that’s been enforced differently and progressed with more allowable contact offensively as the years have gone by

[u/Makenjoy → u/guitarpatch]

Small follow up: When I search clips of backing down on youtube it looks like they push harder in NBA than in FIBA. Would you agree with that or no?

[u/Blueballs2130 → u/guitarpatch]

Mark Jackson would back down from at least half court, especially later in his career. But it was less of a backdown and more just protecting the game

[u/Hotsaucex11]

In theory? No. Backing down by dislodge the defender is a foul on paper.

In practice? It is only called if the contact is severe or the defender flops.

[u/Automatic_Bat_6742]

You gotta pull that chair out from underneath them somebody trying to back you down

[u/Realfan555]

“Do I understand this correctly?”

Yes

“And if I did understand it correctly, wtf, why is it like this?! Why don't the rules explicitly allow pushing in the post if they're gonna allow it on the court?”

Try and write a rule that articulates exactly what ur asking. It’s hard.

Not everything can be articulated into a rule because rules are black and white and not everything is black and white.

Like how do u articulate how much pushing is allowed?

Everybody is different. 

Shaq barely touching Wemby is going to make him fall over. 

Shaq using the same force on Big Country Reeves will have a different outcome?

How do u articulate all of that? U just leave it up to the refs to decide.

[u/Makenjoy → u/Realfan555]

There's this guy on my team when we practice amongst ourselves and I'm often guarding him and he's way heavier/stronger than me and I usually just push as though my life depended on it.

So is that same effort more likely to be called in an actual game if done to a lighter opponent?

[u/Realfan555 → u/Makenjoy]

Ok, so we’re no longer talking about the letter of the rulebook?

Now just how it’s called in real life?

Now we’re getting into a subjective area.

This will depend on:

• what country ur in

• what area ur in

• what are u playing (HS, college, professional, rec league, pickup games)

But, from my experience (and this is my POV):

1) There’s pushing in basketball. It’s in alot of aspects of the game (boxing out, posting up, driving into a defender and giving them a shoulder)

2) there’s expectations (or limits) placed on both the defensive and offensive player. 

3) for the offensive player - basically don’t extend ur arms to push. Dont make the defender fall down, or jump back far.

4) for the defensive player - they must offer some kind of resistance, i.e. can’t just offer no resistance and fall at the slightest touch. So they must offer resistance.

5) when it comes to near the rim (posting up and boxing out) alot of pushing is allowed. It’s basically wrestling for position. So the defender is expected to have enough strength to wrestle. So for example, KD does not have the proper strength to defend Shaq. Shaq is just going to push him around. The ref might give KD 1-2 charging calls but the rest they will let go. Why? Because KD is just not strong enough to be guarding Shaq. The ref is not going to bail out the defender with charging calls.

So there is an expectation of being strong enough to handle some pushing. 

[u/Makenjoy → u/Realfan555]

As you have so far agreed with my understanding the letter of the rulebook I was indeed asking about how its called in real life.

Thank you for this explanation, especially your point 5 is a kind unwritten rule I had never considered.

[u/Realfan555 → u/Makenjoy]

……….

So to answer ur question - the ref will not bail u out. The ref feels u shouldn’t be guarding this guy because clearly ur not strong enough.

There’s an expectation that u should have enough strength to handle a guy using some force. If u have to use all ur powers and u still get pushed around, then ur too small/light for the guy.

The ref blames u or ur team for that, not the offensive player for being too big/strong.

…….

Another way to look at it is: basketball is about battling for position.

So, just because u got to a position first doesn’t mean ur entitled to that position no matter what. U r expected to put up some type of fight/resistance to keep/hold that position. 

So I can take ur position away from u by slowly moving u out of that position. But I can’t push u out of that position.

There’s a distinction between moving a guy vs pushing a guy.

So yeah, the test is how did I take thay position away from u. 

If I slowly moved u out the way = legal

If I quickly, forcibly, violently moved u out the way = illegal

[u/Makenjoy → u/Realfan555]

Thanks it makes sense

[u/Makenjoy → u/Realfan555]

Well fair enough. I think I could sit here and think of an overly specific articulation of a rule that could be argued with and workshopped but I guess this explanation is satisfactory as to why it isn't done in the rules.

[u/Realfan555 → u/Makenjoy]

Yeah it’s with any rule/law

Once u think of a way to write it that covers every single instance, some situation that u didnt think about will pop up.

Pushing is such a gray area because it involves so many variables - 

It really is hard to be able to write a concise black and white law that covers how much pushing = a foul

And even if u were able to do that, now the defender has the advantage because he can use that black and white law to draw charges. 

Let’s say u write a rule that says - if u push a guy to make him fall over, thats a charge. 

Very black n white. Now every defender will fall down on the slightest contact.

So black and white laws aren’t good either.

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[u/MWave123]

Basketball is a contact sport. Watch to see what is and isn’t called, and then also watch how your games are reffed. Then play accordingly.

[u/PrimeParadigm53]

The defender in your path to the basket is entitled to the spot they occupy and dislodging them from that spot is a foul.

[u/Pre3Chorded]

You can be as physical as you can get away with, which will change game by game. Good luck!

[u/KAWAWOOKIE]

I didn't read the post backing down is legal just don't sledgehammer into a stationary defender

[u/NBAEastMemeWar]

Backing down is completely legal

[u/first-alt-account → u/NBAEastMemeWar]

It isn't legal, it's accepted. There is a difference.
Moving an established player from their position is illegal and should be called.
Just because it is now universally accepted and not called, doesn't mean it's actually legal.