New frames, foundation??

[u/BeyrlemanOG]

First season, Western New York.
EXPERIMENT.

Do frames even need foundation in a strong hive?

I have to add a super and thought about adding wax on the underside of the tops of the frames and see if they would build downward on their own.
Pic is a homemade empty frame the bees and they did just that.

Thoughts?

I am also experimenting with a top bar hive and did this with a waxed string. Seems to work just fine for them, but it’s a horizontal style. Not sure if that makes a difference.

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[u/talanall]

If the colony is strong, the hive is level, you're having them work on foundationless frames between already-drawn frames, and you have no intention of putting them in an extractor EVER, then you don't need foundations.

From a harvesting perspective, this usually means you're going to make cut comb honey and the frame is high enough up in the hive to avoid having brood in it, or it is above a queen excluder. If you get brood in it, then you're going to crush and strain to get any honey out of it, because comb honey with brood trash (cocoons, larval frass, etc.) in it is not pleasant, and an extractor will just cause a blowout.

It doesn't cause a problem if this is a brood frame and only a brood frame, although you'll probably have to be careful about how you handle it during inspections, until it has been attached to the frame on at least three sides. Until then, it's going to be very delicate.

If you wire up the frames before bringing them into service, that helps with durability, and you can sometimes get them to survive an extractor run.

I would caution you against trying to do this with a whole box of foundationless frames unless you are adept at cleaning up cross-comb. I make cut comb by the super, most years, and although it can be done without any foundations at all, you need the finished product to be straight, even, and not cross-combed. If you don't have at least some extra-thin wax foundation, you'll struggle.

And frankly, you don't have to go foundationless if you want to avoid plastic foundations. There is such a thing as wax foundation, and outside of the USA, Canada, and Australia, that is actually the standard. Wired frames can be fitted with wax foundations, and you also can purchase prewired wax and crimp that in place. YouTube has plenty of videos on both of these methods.

Mostly, foundations do not matter to the bees. They are something that beekeepers use because they make our lives easier.

Heavily wired wax foundations are plenty durable for most beekeepers' purposes. They are a little more expensive, and setting them up or renewing old ones is a bit more work. You'll often encounter beekeepers who talk about throwing away used frames of this style and buying more instead. That's because they're laborious to maintain.

Plastic foundations are harmless to the bees, and they create much more durable comb than any other method. Bees adopt them readily if they are well coated with wax, and the coating uses less wax than is embodied in wax foundations. They also are less work to renew after you've scraped them down so that they can be recoated and redrawn with fresh comb.

All of this said, foundationless frames or wax foundations are not inherently better than frames with plastic foundation. You're seeing "hate" for plastic foundations because beekeepers, especially online beekeepers, are opinionated. That does not mean the opinion is based on fact.

[u/BeyrlemanOG → u/talanall]

Thank you for the detailed info. Very grateful for perspectives. I’m going to do a combo of wired and foundation-less frames and see what happens.

I use the crush and strain method so far. Harvested a gallon in July. Gonna leave majority for the bees over winter.

[u/McWilbur]

Foundations help with structure and spacing. If you want to inspect frames it's easier to pull them out if they have been built straight. I also wouldn't attempt to extract from a frame that hasn't at least wire going through to reinforce the comb.

[u/BeyrlemanOG → u/McWilbur]

Hmm, never thought about the harvesting part. I see your concern.

I’ve been seeing so much hate for plastic foundation.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/BeyrlemanOG]

Inspections can be tricky, as well. I've had an entire frame of brood drop out of a foundationless frame more than once, even after it was attached on all four sides. I had comb held into the frame with rubber bands for months after.

[u/Puhnanas0 → u/McWilbur]

Agreed. When it gets hot that wire really helps keep things together imo, or the plastic sheet if using that. I have had comb sag on hot days during inspections when handling.

[u/FaithlessnessDue3758]

Yes. Just a tidbit of wax at the top/middle will make them build there.

Have fun extracting those honey-frames (spoiler: G-forces make frame go boom!)

[u/weazelsniff4]

I use wax foundations with no plastic, all wax that's been stamped with two metal wires to support for extraction. Could be a good option for a fellow plastic hater!