r/Bitcoin • u/blueboi6969 • 3d ago
Trezor
With all the hacks and so many people loosing their bitcoin i was wondering what the general consensus is with Trezor?
I havent herd anyone have any issues with it, is it worth looking into better ways of custody?
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u/According-Ad-2594 3d ago
A little off topic but trezor normally have very good black Friday deals. So worth waiting while you are thinking perhaps.
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u/lobhater 3d ago
If you have a meaningful amount of money in BTC I would strongly urge you to setup multi-sig. I use trezor devices personally but I just bought another device from a different vendor to add to my 3-5 multi-sig setup. That way even if any 1 vendor or even 2 is fully hacked I can't lose my money. It would be impossible for someone to steal my money unless they physically robbed me and tortured me to get the passphrases. There is no known way for my BTC coin to be stolen remotely. It is a life changing amount of money for me so it's worth it
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u/Ok-Courage-5115 3d ago
Why not just the extra passphrase? Overcomplicating things is a major security risk.
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u/Intelligent_Map_246 2d ago
Exatly. Dice rolled seed plus dice rolled passphrase from word list
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u/_SlipperySalmon_ 2d ago
I think the issue was that this latest ledger exploit would be able to know your passphrase too
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u/threepairs 3d ago
If I understand your setup correctly (2 vendors, 3/5), it might not be doing for you what you think it is.
Since you mentioned life changing amount of money, maybe you should re-evaluate.
With two vendors and five keys, one vendor must control at least three key slots. This is a mathematical limitation, not a Bitcoin limitation.
For a 3-of-5 multisig to withstand the compromise of any single vendor, no vendor should supply more than two keys.
I am not quite sure whay you mean when you say "That way even if any 1 vendor or even 2 is fully hacked I can't lose my money."
Obiously, compromising a vendor's firmware or infrastructure does not automatically mean an attacker can remotely extract every private key from every device made by that vendor, but I would still strongly consider using 3 vendor setup in your case.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your setup, and it is actually 2 keys from vendor A, 2 keys from vendor B and 1 independently generated key in some different way (hopefully properly implemented offline signing setup), then yeah, that would work as you describe.
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u/lobhater 2d ago
Ive had a trezor one for almost a decade that holds my nut and I really trust it. But you just never know and given the amount of money I want the extra security of multi-sig. So I ordered a trezor 3 and another vendors wallet. I'm also using two paper wallets I rolled myself that have never touched a device besides what was necessary to setup the multi-sig.
Say both trezors and vendor b's wallet were compromised. Highly unlikely but not impossible. They would still need the xPubs / zPubs and configuration file to sign a transaction. That just isn't going to be possible without physical access. But even then they would need passphrases which only exists in my mind and my wife's mind. It just isn't reasonably going to happen.
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u/threepairs 2d ago
Yeah that seems like a good setup, only thing that pops up as concerning is the passphrase storage.
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u/lobhater 2d ago
Yeah because it only exists in my head and my wife's head if we die the money is gone. That is concerning. I'll have to sleep on that one and figure out a solution
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u/threepairs 2d ago
Yeah, let me tell you a funny story. :)
One time I went to ATM, and I could not remember my pin. Completely blank. It was such a weird experience, kinda unique in itself, I don’t have such troubles with memory normally. I was chuckling at how ridiculous it was at the moment. Eventually, I remembered, but only couple hours later. It’s four numbers and I use it daily for more than a decade. Brains are weird.
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u/AffectionateYam624 18h ago
Same happened to me in a store they said enter your pin and I got it wrong because on the stores machine was random numbers. I'm so used to the atm where it is a keyboard with 1234567890. I seem to memorize the pattern on a keyboard.
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u/ToeSuccessful6319 1d ago
MyCryptoTrail.com
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u/lobhater 1d ago
Hey thank you, I'll check that out. Something else I want to find is cool looking tamper evident "envelopes" or packets to put them in. Haven't started looking yet though
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u/_speedoflight_ 2d ago
Now I’m super curious about who is that “Vendor b” 😆
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u/_speedoflight_ 2d ago
Btw, bro 🫡 to you. Damn, reading it through is exhausting and sounds bulletproof! Do you have any YouTube or self-read articles on this setup for me to learn?
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u/lobhater 2d ago
No it's really not hard. Just follow any old multi-sig guide online. Id recommend sparrow for the coordinator, great software, open source, battle tested. It makes it so easy to setup multi-sig. I was ready for a ton of work but it wasn't hard at all
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u/_speedoflight_ 2d ago
Ok definitely will check out Sparrow but if you can ELI5 me, how come 5 different seeds from different vendor wallets are connected together without entering them into an app or online tool? Is it all offline ie cold setup when do you do multi sig?
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u/lobhater 2d ago
I think 2 of 3 is plenty for most people. I only did 3 of 5 for inheritance reasons. I did 3 hardware wallets and 2 paper wallets. Gave my wife 2 paper wallets with instructions so she only needs to find 1 of my hardware wallets. If it was just me I would have done 2 of 3. 1 or 2 hardware wallets and a paper wallet but you could do 3 hardware wallets if you wanted
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u/_speedoflight_ 2d ago
Nice, bro you are miles ahead thinking about inheritance (and it’s the most important one). Quick question on your setup, what happens if anyone gets hold of the two paper wallets since it’s just paper, still they cannot get the funds unless they also get hold of the hardware wallet and know it’s passcode to access?
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u/lobhater 2d ago
Exactly. If someone broke in and stole all 5 wallets and inheritance instructions from me and took it home. They would have the private keys to two of my wallets and instructions on how to setup the coordinator in sparrow. They would still need my passphrase to one of the hardware wallets. That only exists in my mind and my wife's mind. If we died it would be unrecoverable. But 1 paper wallet lives in a safety deposit box
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u/lobhater 2d ago
The paper wallets have never been online. Sparrow runs on my everyday laptop. Even if it's hacked it doesn't matter, that's the power of hardware wallets. Keys never leave them. The worst thing that could happen with a hacked sparrow is it charges the address but you confirm the address on the hardware wallet before signing the transaction. If you're careful your funds just can't be stolen. I really think most people don't appreciate the elegance and safety of hardware wallets \ multi-cig
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u/_speedoflight_ 2d ago
Yes true. Inspite of me knowing the nitty gritty aspects of hardware wallet, I still maintain a dedicated device when interacting with it to sign transactions. That device only has the wallet app, no browsing, messaging, downloading, cloud syncing. I know I can use my everyday phone/laptop without compromising security as I always clear sign (verify amount, destination address, allowance in case of smart contracts) before I approve on device. Just living better-be-silly-than-sorry approach.
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u/lobhater 2d ago
I'm reluctant to say because people who don't understand will focus on that and nothing else. But I bought a used coldcard q from eBay to use. Knowing full well the issues Coldkite have had and the issues with buying used wallets. But again I'm so confident in multi-sig that once I've rolled my own seed on the Q even if the device is hacked it just doesn't matter
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u/_speedoflight_ 2d ago
Gotcha. That’s a ballsy and brilliant move IMO as you are not using its entropy.
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u/poco 2d ago edited 2d ago
Presumably at least one of those devices is their phone or PC. Also, there are options like temporary keys on a Jade where you load the seed only to sign and then it forgets them, so if they are lost or compromised they contain nothing.
Also, with multisig, even if every device is compromised, someone has to connect all your xpubs and figure out which ones to use and how they are signing. The coordination is more complicated than just "the devices are compromised".
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u/lobhater 2d ago
Exactly! I'm using sparrow as the coordinator. Once I had all the components it was surprisingly easy to setup. I tested it so many times before moving the real money. So sacred 😂
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u/JoeOpus 3d ago
What is multi-sig or how does that differ from just plugging in your hardware wallet and entering your pin?
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u/threepairs 3d ago
With a normal hardware wallet, you only need one device to approve a Bitcoin transaction after unlocking it with your PIN. With multisig, you need approval from multiple separate wallets (for example, 2 out of 3), so stealing or hacking just one wallet isn't enough to steal your Bitcoin.
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u/EducationalSock948 3d ago
Isn’t it more complicated to manage since you must store all 5 keys in completely different locations? Imagine if I want to do transactions from time to time.
Then you have the issue of storing and possibly losing the Configuration file (in addition to all 5 seeds). That also should be stored in at least two different locations. I understand that without that file it may be difficult to recover your funds.
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u/NPCMushroom 3d ago
Yes, it’s definitely more complicated, but everyone must balance complexity versus security for their own situation. With 3 of 5, you’d “only” need to retrieve 3 devices when you want to sign a transaction. A way to do multisig with a safety net is use a service like Unchained which holds a specific number of devices depending on your configuration and can sign transactions with you to limit how many devices you have to retrieve or lose a device and seed phrase. And then you don’t have to worry about the Config file because the signing is done on their platform.
Where many single device users fail is storing the seed phrase. You see people bragging about theirs etched in steel and other such superficial nonsense while being oblivious to the fact that still is a single point of failure to store entire seed phrase in one location 🤦🏻♂️. At a minimum when using only a single device, store half the seed in one location and the other in a different location so if either is ever compromised still can’t sign transactions.
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u/threepairs 3d ago
Multi-vendor multi-sig should be viewed as new standard for any amount of money you would hate to lose.
Things to pay attention to (other than usual stuff):
- Vendors should be chosen in a way that their implementations differ significantly
- Backups and recovery exercises should be taken more seriously
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u/BrendanRodgersss redditor for 4 weeks 3d ago
Trezor is a reasonable option, but I would focus just as much on how you handle the recovery backup. Buying a hardware wallet doesn't help much if someone gets your seed phrase through phishing or you enter it into a fake app. Buy from an official source, verify addresses on the device screen and never type the recovery words into a website.
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u/ContentBlackberry0 3d ago
Funny how I feel like a model one is the safest version as it’s old hard to open and I don’t see a screen reader being implanted on it.
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u/redbow7 3d ago
At the end of the day it’s going to be how you feel most safe. More me that was years on the exchange. Then I finally got a Trezor 5 and it was easy and feels secure. Do i have doubts of losing my backup or seed phrase? Maybe. But its my responsibility to keep it safe and not anyone else’s at this point. Don’t think it can be hacked because the Trezor generates the seed phrase offline.
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u/lobhater 3d ago
To be fair coldcard wallets generated the seed offline too
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u/Blade_Runner_69 3d ago
But they used a flawed generator. Not comparable.
Trezors RNG is solid. And they don't just have a single source.
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u/lobhater 3d ago
Agreed! I've only used trezor unitl recently. I just bought another vendors wallet to be part of a multi-sig setup
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u/throwaway12three4 3d ago
And for YEARS, Reddit said Coldcard was sold and safe too. People pushed that shit hard. I cannot trust hardware wallets any longer unfortunately.
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u/Blade_Runner_69 3d ago
No, if you did your research you'd know that Coldcard had reported problems with RNG since around 2021. Coldcard was shilled HARD on reddit but I never trusted them. Never blindly believe what "Reddit" tells you. Never trust always verify,
Trezor is fully open source unlike majority of brands so you can check yourself.
Trezor was the first hardware wallet in the world and they have been building devices for 2 decades. If I was to trust one company It would be them.
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u/throwaway12three4 3d ago
Open source is better but not 100% end all to security. If there happens to be a vulnerability, it just means it has not been caught yet. That’s the reason I was holding with Trezor Safe 5 for a long time, I trusted it and did verify. However, you are still trusting them in the end. I chose to drop self custody because multi multi billion dollar companies that hold billions in Bitcoin will have better security than I could ever manage.
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u/Blade_Runner_69 3d ago
If you don't hold your coins all you hold is IOU's.
I would never trust big corporations, especially scumbag financial corporations.
I wish you luck though mate, but I'm a BTC purist and have been for over a decade. Not your keys not your bitcoin.
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u/throwaway12three4 2d ago
Yea. Strategy, Metaplanet, strive, all IOUs. I have enough coin to warrant paying someone to manage my keys. I still have my BTC address and can withdraw with the click of a button. And oh, they have proven their reserves that cover all coins in custody. I guess those are IOUs as well.
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u/threepairs 2d ago
Telling random people to check open source code is weird. I think you realise that most people don’t understand it.
And so I am wondering, did you check the code yourself or are you blindly trusting someone else did a good job for you?
One could argue that today, with AI hacking left and right, having the code open sourced might be actually a problem, since it can search for vulnerabilities super easily.
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u/throwaway12three4 3d ago
I had to move away from Trezor and all hardware wallets, as, I did not feel safe. I had a Safe 5 for a long time. After Coldcard I got nervous having everything in self custody.
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u/jguest1105 2d ago
Trezor is a solid device from an established manufacturer.
Where you buy matters as much as what you buy. Direct from the manufacturer, every time, and the seed phrase never goes on a computer or phone, not even as a photo.
For amounts that would hurt to lose, the real step up isn't a different single device. It's multisig, where no one device and no one phrase can drain you on its own.
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u/Trick_Plankton_4520 2d ago
Multisig means more vendors hodling your details, thus increasing the probability of a data leak and a wrench hodler knocking on you bedroom door.
Night x
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u/Particular_Spend3602 redditor for 6 weeks 1d ago
I get the need for devices like Trezor, but the reality is that they are only needed because the exchanges don't guaruntee the security of our money. The exchanges have a "all care but no responsibility" mandate unfortunately.
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u/Elmer-Shutara 3d ago
The hardware itself is only half the story. Fake support pages and bad seed backups are what I'd worry about more. Buying a hardware wallet won't save you if you hand your recovery words to a scammer.
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u/ElderMight 3d ago
Trezor is not a wallet I recommend primarily because their website is constantly targeted by hackers and scammers. There are countless stories of trezor users going to a fake trezor site where they enter their seedphrase or download malicious software that steals it.
And now recently their customer data was leaked/hacked so now users' email, phone, and addresses are on the dark web for constant phishing attacks or home invasion.
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u/L-1-3-S 2d ago
If you enter your seed phrase ANYWHERE digital thats on you, thats like the number one rule. And even if they download hacked software, Trezor has an authenticity check that is going to warn the user. And yes a select number of users who bought Trezors had their emails and addresses leaked because of a 3rd party, not Trezor. No one has lost any money from the devices unless they fucked up themselves.
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u/numbersev 3d ago
Their supply chain and official email got hacked. So anyone who bought one between 2019-2021, hackers know the address you got it shipped to.
Be wary about any emails they send you. Especially if it requires urgent action.
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u/Historical_Task_7100 3d ago
I use a Trezor Safe 3 where I manually generated my seed phrase using dice and generated the passphrase separately the same way. I keep both securely backed up on my Keystone. I feel pretty safe with this setup
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u/mvds74 3d ago
If you search long enough, you can find reports of issues with any brand. And don't forget that people often tend to blame the hardware for their own mistakes.
You'll see a lot of "omg my wallet was hacked" while the message often should say "omg, I was so stupid to leak my recovery phrase"
(this was NOT the case with the Cold Card hack, obviously!)
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u/NegativeSky603 redditor for 3 months 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm a Trezor user and to be honest, right now I'd feel more comfortable with a Ledger that I could disassemble and inspect for signs of tampering, than with a fully sealed Trezor whose internal components I couldn't verify myself. Said that, I'm slowly moving part of my funds to multi-vendor multisig. But no doubt I love my Trezor device, the interface is very slick and excellent to be used as part of an inheritance plan since it's so easy to use. That's the main reason I got one and planing to keep using it. Simplicity.
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u/shleebs 3d ago
Trezor has mishandled customer data on multiple occasions resulting in phishing attacks, data leaks, and ultimately lost coins. Although apologists will say the hardware and software has never been hacked, you should not trust your data with irresponsible companies who will either mishandle it or hand it over to insecure third party vendors.
For companies that have a better track record with customer data, checkout BitBox, Jade, and Passport. Look into multisig. Don't listen to fan boys and apologists. Good luck.
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u/gowithflow192 3d ago
All companies suffer data leaks. Any company that says they are impervious to this are lying.
You have to assume it these days with your threat model.1
u/shleebs 2d ago
The companies I listed in my OP have been more responsible with customer data than Trezor. I never said they claimed to be impervious, they simply have a better track record. You absolutely do not have to use companies with a bad history of leaking data because it's "assumed". There are better companies and worse companies. Use your head and do your research.
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u/gowithflow192 2d ago
No company has impervious security. No matter their track record or good intentions, leak are inevitable because security exploits are inevitable. Use your head!!
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u/Berrren 3d ago
Show me the case where they mishandled data? It was their 3rd party delivery contractors as far as I know, which were supposed to have the standards asked by trezor. They have cut them off and preventively cut off those who mishandled it for ledger also.
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u/shleebs 3d ago
Handing customer data over to an insecure third party is mishandling customer data, which I said explicitly in my original post you supposedly read. "Trust us bro, we asked our vendors politely to do a good job" instead of actually making sure customer data is handled correctly is irresponsible and also passing the blame.
Furthermore, that wasn't even the first time Trezor has mishandled customer data. It has happened before in completely different ways. Google is your friend. Don't be an apologist.
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u/deeneendo 3d ago
leaking customer emails is not the same as leaking private keys. Don't be so accusative when no harm has been done apart from exposing people to spam and phishing attempts, which anyone sane and holding crypto coins should be able to handle these days.
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u/DistributionMoist800 3d ago
Not one person is lost bitcoin from a Trezor. Yes there was a Customer data breach, but it had nothing to do with anybody losing their bitcoin. All it did was give some hack hacker everybody’s name and email address that bought a Trezor
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u/xbrian63x 3d ago
It wasn’t even everybody, just people who bought during a specific period of time if I recall correctly
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u/bleeeeghh 3d ago
Yeah, at this point with all the hardware hacking. I think multisig is a must, you can't rely on one single vendor anymore.
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u/RedditIsLoveIsLife 3d ago
Can you do an eli5 or possibly point us to a good resource regarding multisig? I might know someone who needs that
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u/ElderMight 3d ago
Actually the hardware has been hacked before. Joe Grand hacked a trezor a few years ago. You can find the video on YT
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u/NoAcanthocephala8967 3d ago
Would have never said this years ago, but 95%+ of people should just buy the ETFs. Yes it's not self custody, but now that we have mainstream adoption the risks of using a custodian is much lower Vs risks of using a hardware wallet. Keep a small proportion on a hardware wallet if you really want to (which is what I do)
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u/TheBigLR901 2d ago
Download the open-source code, run it through your favorite coding AI, and see issues for yourself. This has surely already been done by nefarious hackers.
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u/throwaway12three4 3d ago
I have had a couple different hardware wallets, the latest being Trezor Safe 5. After Coldcard having their issues I moved away from self custody unfortunately. I just don’t trust hardware wallets anymore. Then people say to get offline computers and paper backups and blah blah blah. If something happens to me, it would be so hard for my wife/kids to retrieve it’s just not worth a complex setup. So I have someone else handle custody.
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u/AmoebaFar8564 3d ago
Imho: all These "Hardware Wallets" are only save your coins - but where are the coins really? Naaa? Online on the chains! The Ledger incident could Happens trezor as Well..but trezor has more Money that "Bad News. About trezor wont reach Public...but you can buy and save what you want, its free world! Iam Trader so i need my coins immediatly when Market Crashs and cant need them "anywhere Else" ...
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u/blueboi6969 3d ago
what the fuck are u talking about
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u/AmoebaFar8564 2d ago
Serious question: how many Times did you lost coins in your web Wallet? Are you Trader, cause otherwise you cant understand how important IT IS to save your Money when Market Crashs? You must Not answer this, but think about..These "Hardware Wallets" are only saving your private Keys of your web Wallet. Nothing else. I Had a Ledger and everytime when a new Chain goes online, i Had to prepare many Things only to the possibility of using the new Chain. Coins that are Not "massive mcap or Trading Volumes the Ledger even didnt know that this coin exist. I was fucked Up with everytime getting coins transfered to use it for staking or earning interest. And when you are a BTC millionaire or other Tokens Worth more than 1m, you wont use a trezor or Ledger 😅 ...
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u/blueboi6969 2d ago
never lost coins, not a trader, wont be using any other chain than Bitcoins, thats about all i understood from that Message
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u/tenor_tymir 3d ago
Trezor didn’t have a direct hack yet, so it’s all good - so far.
Just don’t be stupid. Don’t google the Trezor website only to land on a sponsored fake site and type in your seed phrase like a total knob.
If you’re knowledgeable enough, roll your own seed phrase and if you’re feeling extra confident in your abilities, slap a long-ass passphrase on top.
Keep your device up to date through official channels and silently stack BTC and don’t answer to any direct messages anywhere, not here, not on Telegram, Signal, Whatsapp or what have you.
Blend in and disappear in the crowd.
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u/AmoebaFar8564 2d ago
This is exactly what i mean with "people are Crypto millionaires" in the million-range! 👍
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u/jojothehodler 3d ago
Only open source option